Does Arya survives at the end and furthers the stark family line through gendry?

[Arya-Jon]

I know that the Arya and Jon shippers really have tons invested in her becoming Jon's wife and Queen in future canon because of the Waterstones letter, but I worry that you're underestimating George's propensity for subverting the expected. Just because it was in the original outline doesn't mean that it's going to happen.

(Granted, these may be famous last words, as I'm famously wrong on shipping. Been right once or twice in 20 years! All the same, I can't see it.)

The best part in all this is that we'll likely know something by 2017 or 2018, one way or the other. I can't think Arya's fate in the series will differ too much from that in the books... TWOW, where are you?

Grrm is truly unpredictable . But it is this quote which gives us hope

Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing.

 

This quote does seem to indicate that he always knew what these three characters would become in the end and where they would end up . I may be completely wrong on this. But at least I can hope. 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

 

Grrm is truly unpredictable . But it is this quote which gives us hope

This quote does seem to indicate that he always knew what these three characters would become in the end and where they would end up . I may be completely wrong on this. But at least I can hope. 

Well, I love Arya, and I love Jon. They're my favorite male and female character. But I don't really trust GRRM's ability to sell me on it.

Having said that, I hope that both survive canon. And if the only way I get a living Arya and Jon is for them to be sleeping together, then so be it.

[Joan Jett]

I know that the Arya and Jon shippers really have tons invested in her becoming Jon's wife and Queen in future canon because of the Waterstones letter, but I worry that you're underestimating George's propensity for subverting the expected. Just because it was in the original outline doesn't mean that it's going to happen.

(Granted, these may be famous last words, as I'm famously wrong on shipping. Been right once or twice in 20 years! All the same, I can't see it.)

The best part in all this is that we'll likely know something by 2017 or 2018, one way or the other. I can't think Arya's fate in the series will differ too much from that in the books... TWOW, where are you?

I don't think that a Jon/Arya endgame is expected at this point though? Jon/Arya shippers are just a loud minority lol. When the letter came out 98% of the fandom immediately regarded it as a crazy original plan that has permanently changed for the better. Even the news articles about it say as much. The J/A/T triangle in particular sounded so outlandish and disgusting to them that hardly anyone even took it seriously and actually tried to apply it to the current text.  At this point I think if he did go along with it then billions of people would still be surprised because the majority of fans think that the outline means next to nothing. 

Here's an exerpt from an interview with i09 where George RR Martin was asked about it ( I think it's the only time ever?) :

So people have this idea that back when Ice and Fire started as a trilogy, you had an outline where there was a single line that went, "And meanwhile, nobles squabble over power in Westeros." And that single line turned into the middle three or four books of the series. Is there any truth to that?

It's a grotesque exaggeration — but there's at least a nugget of truth to it, yeah. You introduce characters, and sometimes they take on a life of their own.

Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion's arc was gonna be through this, what Arya's arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow's arc is gonna be. I knew what the principal deaths were gonna be, and when they were coming. That would be the closest thing.

But there would be some secondary characters, like Bronn, Tyrion's henchman, [who] became a such a popular character. He came out of nowhere. [I was thinking], "Okay, Tyrion has meets these two sellswords, Bronn and Chiggen. And one's going to fight for him. Which one is it gonna be? Okay, we'll go with Bronn." But as I wrote about him, he developed a personality of his own. And his past is super-mysterious, you don't know where he's born from, where he comes from, but he's fun to write about. He comes into a scene — once he's been cast in the TV show, they have a wonderful actor playing him — and he becomes real.

 I think that the outline leaking did disappoint GRRM. While the letter did not mention an Arya-Queen endgame, its heavily hinted in the first book. If fans consider outline, the king hints for Jon, and the J/A hints in book one, then they can really connect the dots. Not many have though. And that's what our author relies on, truly.  He says that he remains hopeful despite theories being posted on the internet because there's no guarantee that anyone will believe them. That's especially true with this theory since most people chose not to even think about it. 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

^^^ Knowing GRRM, he'd go the Jon and Arya endgame route just to annoy everyone. It would be what his series would be remembered for, though, and I don't know if he wants that. And I don't get how that ending would be "bittersweet"... many people would be pretty squicked by it, but they wouldn't perceive it as "bittersweet" necessarily. King Jon and Queen Arya would be an ending even sweeter than King Jon and Queen Daenerys for fans of the Starks.

Joan, I know we've talked about this before, if I had to pick a ship out of the characters we know for Arya, of course it'd be Gendry, hands down. I like the "Robert and Lyanna done right" idea, although it's such a hackneyed cliche, and I got a kick out of their interactions in ACOK and ASOS. They're a bantering couple instead of a lovey-dovey one... not much banter in a Jon/Arya match; they'd be more serious and traditionally romantic if the AGoT quotes are a flavor of what it'd be like. However, as much as I'm not into it, I wouldn't be shocked if Jon and Arya happen in canon.

I also like the idea of her with Ned Dayne. She seemed to get along well with him until he brought up Jon's mother (and all the Jonarya people are going, "See! We told you!"). And I'll be the first to admit that Hot Pie and Arya together would be hilarious, the stuff of a sitcom writer's dreams...

I never get those who put Arya with Edric Storm. In my mind, Shireen marrying Edric Storm solves House Baratheon's succession problem quite nicely.

Elmar is doomed, like all the Freys, although I wanted to shake Arya for her "I hope your princess dies" comment. Little lady, quiet down with all those portents of your own doom!

[Arya-Jon]

 

Elmar is doomed, like all the Freys, although I wanted to shake Arya for her "I hope your princess dies" comment. Little lady, quiet down with all those portents of your own doom!

Actually Arya has remarked many times that she is dead. In Bravos I did see one line where she says,Sansa and Arya all are dead. Only Jon remains. I think and hope the reference is foreshadowing of her joining the faceless men and dying in the process (metaphorically)

And any ways "All (wo)men must die". Valar Morghulis!

I feel she has many great deeds to complete before she dies.

[Arya-Jon]

^^^ Knowing GRRM, he'd go the Jon and Arya endgame route just to annoy everyone. It would be what his series would be remembered for, though, and I don't know if he wants that. And I don't get how that ending would be "bittersweet"... many people would be pretty squicked by it, but they wouldn't perceive it as "bittersweet" necessarily. King Jon and Queen Arya would be an ending even sweeter than King Jon and Queen Daenerys for fans of the Starks.

 

I think it would be quite bittersweet. Jon as someone who  technically broke his oaths for his loves and for setting right the unjust reputation of the Starks that Lannisters have created.

Unleashing a wave of Violence which ultimately causes some degree of regret both to the readers as well as Jon. One main character (Dany) who Jon loves will mostly die.

And the reason for her death probably would be Jon going ahead with his claims.

Being the reason so many people die is terrible. And honestly do you think the crown would just be handed over to Jon? I think Arya will infiltrate King's Landing and kill a lot of people. I envisage a scenario where she would have to chose between killing innocents and saving Jon.

Last but not the least, the whole realm is broken and in debt. Who would want to rule that mess?

Think that is very very bittersweet. You get your throne, but cause so much devastation in its wake and not exatly be glad to rule it.

Maybe Jon would wonder: Would not it have been better if he would have refused Dany's offer and just allowed her to rule with Tyrion as her hand or husband.

 

 

 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think it would be quite bittersweet. Jon as someone who  technically broke his oaths for his loves and for setting right the unjust reputation of the Starks that Lannisters have created.

Unleashing a wave of Violence which ultimately causes some degree of regret both to the readers as well as Jon. One main character (Dany) who Jon loves will mostly die.

And the reason for her death probably would be Jon going ahead with his claims.

Being the reason so many people die is terrible. And honestly do you think the crown would just be handed over to Jon? I think Arya will infiltrate King's Landing and kill a lot of people. I envisage a scenario where she would have to chose between killing innocents and saving Jon.

Last but not the least, the whole realm is broken and in debt. Who would want to rule that mess?

Think that is very very bittersweet. You get your throne, but cause so much devastation in its wake.

Maybe Jon would wonder: Would not it have been better if he would have refused Dany's offer and just allowed her to rule with Tyrion as her hand or husband.

Ah, so you think Dany and her dragons die? That's interesting, because it's Arya who has all the death imagery surrounding her (as you note).

Having said that, I do think that there's no way both Jon and Dany survive canon. But their parallels are just crazy... Dany was reborn in fire, and Jon's about to be reborn in ice (or both fire and ice). Has to bear some significance.

 

[Joan Jett]

^^^ Knowing GRRM, he'd go the Jon and Arya endgame route just to annoy everyone. It would be what his series would be remembered for, though, and I don't know if he wants that. And I don't get how that ending would be "bittersweet"... many people would be pretty squicked by it, but they wouldn't perceive it as "bittersweet" necessarily. King Jon and Queen Arya would be an ending even sweeter than King Jon and Queen Daenerys for fans of the Starks.

Joan, I know we've talked about this before, if I had to pick a ship out of the characters we know for Arya, of course it'd be Gendry, hands down. I like the "Robert and Lyanna done right" idea, although it's such a hackneyed cliche, and I got a kick out of their interactions in ACOK and ASOS. They're a bantering couple instead of a lovey-dovey one... not much banter in a Jon/Arya match; they'd be more serious and traditionally romantic if the AGoT quotes are a flavor of what it'd be like. However, as much as I'm not into it, I wouldn't be shocked if Jon and Arya happen in canon.

I also like the idea of her with Ned Dayne. She seemed to get along well with him until he brought up Jon's mother (and all the Jonarya people are going, "See! We told you!"). And I'll be the first to admit that Hot Pie and Arya together would be hilarious, the stuff of a sitcom writer's dreams...

I never get those who put Arya with Edric Storm. In my mind, Shireen marrying Edric Storm solves House Baratheon's succession problem quite nicely.

Elmar is doomed, like all the Freys, although I wanted to shake Arya for her "I hope your princess dies" comment. Little lady, quiet down with all those portents of your own doom!

My top alternative is Arya living with multiple kids at Winterfell and being like Maege Mormont. Especially because of the quote about that statue/symbol on Bear Island of a woman nursing a child and holding a battle axe. 

Tbh, I have nothing serious against Gendry(besides him calling my bby Brienne ugly). I just get snippy about him because Arya/Gendry is a super popular ship and I get jealous.

[Trotsky]

I have written a piece on why Arya will survive (be queen) on Tumblr. Just wanted to share it with you. And your assumption that Grrm did not have Arya as Queen in his initial endgame is mostly wrong. There are many hints to the contrary which I have shared in the post below.

That said I do think she will die after ruling for some years.

http://arya-jon-tyrion.tumblr.com/post/134678673174/why-arya-will-be-queen-and-rule-for-some-years

I'll read it. In the meantime, I would like to apologize as I have been mistaken apparently. I couldn't find where I read about Arya expected to die by GRRM, so I'll retract that and reconsider my views about her importance. From what I could find through the Waterstones stuff, however, Tyrion, Bran, Arya, Jon and Dany are definitely the main 5 characters he depicted and from the five books published, they'll probably stay alive until at least the ending climax. In all published books (excl. TWOW previews), Tyrion has the most chapters with 47, following by Jon with 42, Arya 33, Dany 31 and Bran has 21 (behind Cat and Sansa at 25 each though). This shows their importance to ASOIAF overall, incl. Arya's. Funny enough, Tyrion was supposed to besiege and burn Winterfell after Robb's death lol. Glad that didn't happen. 

Anyways back at Arya, I read your piece on tumblr. Great read, although I do not necessarily agree with all the points or most: 

Foreshadowing 1: Or it's just a father reassuring his daughter and trying to make her views fall into his more easily. (Which you also mentioned).

F2: I don't see it as foreshadowing anything, personally, just Ned saying you sometimes inherit things like the North and don't necessarily think you're that prepared for it. The reference to queens and fathering them simply means that he was a lusty womanizer. 

F3: Arya is just reminding Tywin that women exist and are as much an important part of Westerosi history as men. It doesn't need to have more meaning to it than that lol, Arya is definitely a "feminist" in the ASOIAF world, clearly fighting against the marginalization of women as simply providing heirs to their lords, etc. 

F4: Nymeria is more or less the Joan of Arc of Dorne and to Westerosi women such as Arya, a role model most likely. I don't see how it foreshadows her future.

F5: GRRM is here more likely referring to Dany, who married Drogo at 13 in the books. Arya is like 9 in AGOT. 

F6: Same as F1.

F7: Return of Starks, sure, but no hint at Arya specifically. 

Even if from Waterstones, GRRM had planned for Arya+Jon to be, the story changed so much from the actual planning that it couldn't work anymore. Arya is completely independent from the other Starks as it is, and in his early planning, GRRM had her escape Winterfell with Cat and Bran. The context changes everything, but I'll admit their love could be possible, although one-sided. Jon still thinks of her as a child, and she is. They have 5-6 years age difference? She's 11 in ADWD, and Jon is over 16. I still think of it as how Ned saw Lyanna. On the other hand, Cersei and Jaime had more grounds to have an incest relationship, considering they are twins (same age, big connection). Their teenage years must have had a lot of boy/girl exploring, while we can't say the same about Jon and Arya. I'll give the theory the comparison between Ygritte and Arya, two independent, fierce and wild (not pejorative) women, but then again it could just all be coincidental. But in the end, most shipping theories tend to interpret dialogues and small events to support their ship, so... Welp. We'll see 

[Arya-Jon]

 

Foreshadowing 1: Or it's just a father reassuring his daughter and trying to make her views fall into his more easily. (Which you also mentioned).

 

I guess foreshadowing is a tricky business as you can never quite be sure when it is foreshadowing. And we both agree it can be a father just reassuring a daughter.

But when I read it along with Foreshadowing 2 about queens, it gives further weight . What really causes me to suspect this foreshadowing is true is Foreshadowing 7. Where the comic book writer of GOT, Daniel Abraham says that

 "There are things about this story that only he knows, and they aren’t all obvious.  There was one scene I had to rework because there’s a particular line of dialog – and you wouldn’t know it to look at – that’s important in the last scene of “A Dream of Spring.”

That line (Ned's dialog about Arya being Queen) just seems to fit better with it than other lines by relevance and also because it is so innuocuos.

But as you say, I may be wrong abt it.

 

 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

My top alternative is Arya living with multiple kids at Winterfell and being like Maege Mormont. Especially because of the quote about that statue/symbol on Bear Island of a woman nursing a child and holding a battle axe. 

Tbh, I have nothing serious against Gendry(besides him calling my bby Brienne ugly). I just get snippy about him because Arya/Gendry is a super popular ship and I get jealous.

Oh, I love the thought of Arya being like one of the Mormont girls. Independent women and girls FTW!

Don't get jealous. Gendry's likely a MacGuffin in the flesh. If he were important, I think we would've seen him reappear in the books by now. And he was mean to Brienne, but the Gendry we saw in AFFC is a different boy than the one we knew in ACOK and ASOS... Gendry post-Arya seems angry all the time, and no wonder, if he thinks she died at the Red Wedding or is marrying some highborn lord up North. *sniff*

[Arya-Jon]

F5: GRRM is here more likely referring to Dany, who married Drogo at 13 in the books. Arya is like 9 in AGOT.

 

You are wrong here . Grrm is talking about a 12 year old conquering Westeros. By the time Dany conquers it(if she does) her age would be 16 or 15. Arya's current age is 11. And  by ADOS  her age should be 12.

I think it is pretty obvious that Grrm is referirng to the age when they conquer. Even if you consider the age and time when Grrm gave the interview(2005), Dany is still 14 or 15 as Storm of Swords had been written by then.

[Arya-Jon]

Ah, so you think Dany and her dragons die?

 

I am not so sure about her dragons dying. At least I dont think all of them will die.

Dragons are like our Nuclear Wmds and are the main reason Kings have been able to rule the 7 kingdoms without fear of a rebellion. If dragons die, Jons's hold on the throne may not be so strong and he will not be able to enact any Grrmesque reforms (integrating wildings and other outcasts) and benefitting the small folk.

So there is a chance of them living. But they may die too. There are narrative reasons for keeping them and there are narrative reasons for killing them. So I am on the fence on this one. 

[hardhome]

Arya never talks to Tywin in the books, your in the wrong forum. 

My previous point is that marrying Jon solves no real or perceived problems in the narrative.  Lets say they do marry... Jon would have to get over the whole undead(?), night's watch deserter, dubious bloodline... it becomes a total nightmare trying to say how this marriage will do anything but create more political tension, causing another war which seems a poor way to end the story. 

 

 

[Arya-Jon]

Arya never talks to Tywin in the books, your in the wrong forum. 

My previous point is that marrying Jon solves no real or perceived problems in the narrative.  Lets say they do marry... Jon would have to get over the whole undead(?), night's watch deserter, dubious bloodline... it becomes a total nightmare trying to say how this marriage will do anything but create more political tension, causing another war which seems a poor way to end the story. 

 

 

I never talked about Tywin in this forum until now. I just linked my tumblr post which considered mostly book evidence but just one show evidence to prove a point.

Exactly it may create a war, create issues about Night's watch deserting etc. More importantly it will make Jon's character greyer then it already is.

The choice for us as a reader is "Did he do the right thing". Many will say yes. Others will say no. Thats the way it works in the real world too. Your actions do cause debate and rarely does it happen that everyone thinks you are wrong or everyone thinks you are right.  And Grrm wants to create characters whose actions will provoke debate as he mentioned in a interview.

[RattleSnake]

I don't see Arya marrying or having babies...that's just not her. Anyway...this is only my opinion. 

[Arya-Jon]

I don't see Arya marrying or having babies...that's just not her. Anyway...this is only my opinion. 

Remember Arya taking care of weasel in the books? Even after all of her suffering and the violence she has been put through, she was taking care of the girl. There are lines about Arya playing with the kids of her father’s bannersmen and inventing names for their unborn children. When Jon and Robb take their siblings to the crypts in order to scare them, Sansa runs, while Arya stands with Bran hiding behind her. She stands to protect her baby brother even when she is as scared as he is and scolds Jon for scaring the baby.

I would argue that Arya is inherently maternal. Infact a lot of things about her arc concerns " her pack ". Which also symbolizes her ability to be a mother.

As far as romance/marriage is concerned I would link these posts which you may want to read

http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/94273360762/do-you-think-arya-will-ever-get-married

http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/71317665349/arya-stark-on-beauty-romance-and-all-those

[purple-eyes]

Remember Arya taking care of weasel in the books? Even after all of her suffering and the violence she has been put through, she was taking care of the girl. There are lines about Arya playing with the kids of her father’s bannersmen and inventing names for their unborn children. When Jon and Robb take their siblings to the crypts in order to scare them, Sansa runs, while Arya stands with Bran hiding behind her. She stands to protect her baby brother even when she is as scared as he is and scolds Jon for scaring the baby.

I would argue that Arya is inherently maternal. Infact a lot of things about her arc concerns " her pack ". Which also symbolizes her ability to be a mother.

As far as romance/marriage is concerned I would link these posts which you may want to read

http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/94273360762/do-you-think-arya-will-ever-get-married

http://donewithwoodenteeth.tumblr.com/post/71317665349/arya-stark-on-beauty-romance-and-all-those

From her new mercy chapter, She sexually played with that old man and killed him joyfully. 

I feel that she is on a darker path and I doubt she would have a regular marriage and motherhood. 

 

[Arya-Jon]

From her new mercy chapter, She sexually played with that old man and killed him joyfully. 

I feel that she is on a darker path and I doubt she would have a regular marriage and motherhood. 

 

Which old man? That is a young man. I guess you are talking abt Raff. He is young. Of course she has a desire for revenge and a strong one at that. 

And she did not really start having sex with him. She killed him before the act. How does killing prevent someone from having a normal marriage. Visenya has killed. Ygritte kills. If you are complaining about the means with which she kills, its basically like a wolf. She is hunting raff and yes joyfully. But for her he is just a prey. Any means is fine, even the incentive of sex if it gets the prey in her trap. 

I suspect your view is sexist? Or maybe not.  What I am gathering from your statement is that woman who kills and takes pleasure in the venegaence cant have a normal marriage but men can ? Because so many men have taken pleasure in killing for their revenge. 

Or do you mean that she would need a husband who accepts her despite being a killer? (Jon has a thing for killer woman. And whom I suspect will be her husband)

Arya is above all not a lady but a wolf. She-wolves kill . But they also have sex, have babies and work to protect their pack. So yes in that sense her marriage would have more connection with a wolf rather than a lady.  And she would have a different style of ruling with high emphasis on pack and wolfishness to bring about a " A TIme for wolves (Stark rule) ". Is that what you mean?

I cannot understand what you mean by your comment.

[purple-eyes]

Which old man? That is a young man. I guess you are talking abt Raff. He is young. Of course she has a desire for revenge and a strong one at that. 

And she did not really start having sex with him. She killed him before the act. How does killing prevent someone from having a normal marriage. Visenya has killed. Ygritte kills. If you are complaining about the means with which she kills, its basically like a wolf. She is hunting raff and yes joyfully. But for her he is just a prey. Any means is fine, even the incentive of sex if it gets the prey in her trap. 

I suspect your view is sexist? Or maybe not.  What I am gathering from your statement is that woman who kills and takes pleasure in the venegaence cant have a normal marriage but men can ? Because so many men have taken pleasure in killing for their revenge. 

Or do you mean that she would need a husband who accepts her despite being a killer? (Jon has a thing for killer woman. And whom I suspect will be her husband)

Arya is above all not a lady but a wolf. She-wolves kill . But they also have sex, have babies and work to protect their pack. So yes in that sense her marriage would have more connection with a wolf rather than a lady.  And she would have a different style of ruling with high emphasis on pack and wolfishness to bring about a " A TIme for wolves (Stark rule) ". Is that what you mean?

I cannot understand what you mean by your comment.

Oh, I guess I mixed him with that swift guy. So he is young. 

OK, let me put it in this way. 

I have read many fantasy novels, there are many such cool killers who can kill people in quite various and fascinating ways, for business, for wealth, for reputation, or for revenge.

I am not saying these type of people technically can not have sex or children or marriage. Sure they can . 

But usually they are painted as somebody who is isolated from regular social life and lived a weird and lonely killer's life. 

Best killer is always lonely and cold and had a distance from the rest of the world. It is a little bit like you are on a higher mountain peak, then you feel more cold and lonely. 

Ygirtte and visenya are regular fighters and warriors, they had husband, partners, children, friends, etc. quite different from Arya's role.  

Even her death was somehow foreshadowed by Jon: died with the needle in her frozen fingers. something like that. 

If this is true, then this is indeed a normal way of death for such killer role. 

 

By the way, I agree that GRRM likely will make her as Jon's queen, maybe after death of Jon's first queen dany, or Arya died before Dany as Jon's first wife. (Unless he wanted to make Jon Snow a polygamy man. then Arya will be the love wife who died like Rhaenys and Dany ended up like a duty wife who bore some children)

But at this point, her image is more like a cold killer. and this type of killer usually is not related to the normal marriage life and children stuff. This is just to make the story cool. do you think readers will want to see a cold killer who can seduce a man, play with his private parts to kill him using a razor but also has one child dragging her skirt and crying for her breast milk and a husband who held another baby? This does not fit that image.