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The Grimdark Appreciation thread III


C.T. Phipps

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And as for the article's comments about authors and their intentions, I posted elsewhere:

The article's author claims that there is no such thing as grimdark as far as writers are concerned because few (if any) writers set out to write grimdark. So? Fanatics generally don't think they are fanatics; they are fanatics because others think they are. And how many writers set out to write poor fiction? It exists, regardless of intentions. But some will then say that the term "poor fiction" is subjective and that people will disagree on whether something is or is not poor fiction. Same for grimdark. Conclusion: To say it doesn't exist is poor fiction.

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I think genre lines are of more interest to readers and marketing people than the actual writers. Writers are first and foremost interested in telling a story. The classification thing comes later.

To be fair, I think the nature of a genre is only fully defined when someone can say, "I'm sitting down and writing a Western/Sci-Fi novel/Fantasy novel/Horror novel."

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To be fair, I think the nature of a genre is only fully defined when someone can say, "I'm sitting down and writing a Western/Sci-Fi novel/Fantasy novel/Horror novel."

I think it's more that you're dealing with readers.

Readers like Book A. They want to find books similar to Book A. A book similar to Book A is considered to be in the same genre, even if the genre didn't exist at the time the book was written (the classic example being Frankenstein and Science-Fiction). 

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I think it's more that you're dealing with readers.

Readers like Book A. They want to find books similar to Book A. A book similar to Book A is considered to be in the same genre, even if the genre didn't exist at the time the book was written (the classic example being Frankenstein and Science-Fiction). 

That is the basic argument I was making. I.e., I agree with you. 

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To be fair, I think the nature of a genre is only fully defined when someone can say, "I'm sitting down and writing a Western/Sci-Fi novel/Fantasy novel/Horror novel."

Actually, I think one of the worse things a writer can do is this. If you sit down and decide you are about to write in a specific genre, you are killing a substantial amount of potential for creativity and originality by putting an artificial genre boundary around what you are going to write. I understand that there are (unfortunately) pragmatic reasons for doing this if you are trying to make a sale, but that is a different issue.

Anyway, despite all the theoretical arguments saying otherwise, grimdark exists as a genre

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Yeah I'm pretty sure the article was firmly tongue-in-cheek.

I don't.  I honestly think him, and most authors, think the sub genre is a joke (and one that seems to be taking itself a little too seriously), nor do they set out to write for that set genre.  Rather, they want to a good SF/F book, and knuckleheads who really..REALLY want this to be a serious thing shoe horn the books into their chosen corner of fandom. 

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It's not that I want to defend 'grimdark', because I think it's a silly name for a badly-defined corner of the genre, but he didn't grab a quote of Abercrombie? Well, then, his evidence is incomplete, isn't it? :box:


ps is Beyond Redemption good? I've been sniffing around it for a while but not taken the plunge yet. Also: it's not a Western, right? Coz the cover certainly brings that to mind but the plot doesn't sound like it at all.

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My general idea is it was half-and-half. Writers are usually the people most confused about the concept of grimdark from what I've read. Not that there's not plenty of readers who disdain the concept, even in this thread.

It's also somewhat nebulously defined.

You can define sci-fi and fantasy or Western or horror much easier.

Grimdark is more a tone.

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I don't.  I honestly think him, and most authors, think the sub genre is a joke (and one that seems to be taking itself a little too seriously), nor do they set out to write for that set genre.  Rather, they want to a good SF/F book, and knuckleheads who really..REALLY want this to be a serious thing shoe horn the books into their chosen corner of fandom. 

You do know that this is the grimdark appreciation thread, don't you?

 

Grimdark is a valid subgenre at this point. Troof.

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You do know that this is the grimdark appreciation thread, don't you?

 

Grimdark is a valid subgenre at this point. Troof.

Actually, in case you haven't been following along, it's sort of morphed into a 'what is grim dark, and how do we appreciate it' thread.

As long as there are still authors, and consumers, doubting its validity it is not valid.  Fact.  You can scream at the heavens all you want, doesn't make something true. 

 

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Actually, in case you haven't been following along, it's sort of morphed into a 'what is grim dark, and how do we appreciate it' thread.

As long as there are still authors, and consumers, doubting its validity it is not valid.  Fact.  You can scream at the heavens all you want, doesn't make something true. 

 

Oh, I have been. And the thread title speaks for itself. It's not a hate on GD thread, or hate on those who enjoy GD.

And there's no need to scream at the heavens. One can say any subgenre doesn't exist, but if it has a label and publishers and authors attached to it, guess what, it does. That's why the need for discussion threads about it.

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Actually, in case you haven't been following along, it's sort of morphed into a 'what is grim dark, and how do we appreciate it' thread.

As long as there are still authors, and consumers, doubting its validity it is not valid.  Fact.  You can scream at the heavens all you want, doesn't make something true. 

That would mean science-fiction and fantasy aren't valid genres.

You do realize that, right?

There are still many literature aficionados who consider them unworthy of consideration.

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Dark fantasy                   Grimdark

Standard heroes            Flawed / Morally ambiguous heroes

Standard villains            Lighter / Morally ambiguous villains

Little humour                 An ass-load of black and gallows humour

Some optimism             A profound lack of hope, optimism, solution

Some deaths                Slasher-film-esque body-dropping

Less graphic                 More graphic / visceral

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