Why do you like this character: Jaime

[FuzzyJAM]

You got it right, but it was later discovered it was a mistranslation: it wasn't camel but the actual word meant rope. (because, seriously... a camel??)

Not a mistranslation.  It's literally needle and literally camel.  That's how hard it's supposed to be.  There have been a lot of myths about that verse (e.g. "Needle" was a gate in Jerusalem) because people don't like facing up to the fact that their god clearly doesn't like his followers being wealthy because, well, it's quite nice to be wealthy, and wealthy people generally have enough power to force certain arguments in theology.  It should be noted that the verse concludes with "though all things are possible through God", however.  

Anyway. . .theology aside. . .

I enjoy Jaime's chapters because I find them interesting.  His character is fun to read about.  He's funny and competent, and such characters are enjoyable to inhabit.  Further, while he's done many things that are pretty terrible in the series, in his own PoV he's actually quite a benevolent character - more than his siblings, at any rate.  I actually think that's a bit of a cheat from George because his character in Feast is totally different from the sort of man who would kill a bunch of men to "chastise" their lord, but there's an argument it makes sense because he was totally grief stricken and furious about Tyrion's capture, and his own captivity and loss of hand changed him greatly.  His development feels more like a disconnect than a natural, gradual change - yes, there is some gradual change and some good explanations for it, but it's not 100% believable to me.  

But yeah, main point is that he's just fun and (in his own chapters) a pretty decent person, at least by Westerosi standards!  

[Anath]

Because he's basically honest with himself, even if he becomes quite whiny at times. Because he's alternatively the hero and the monster. (Yes, pushing Bran through that window was a monstrous thing to do and George's attempt to explain it with self-protection or protection of his own children never rang true to me. It clashes with my reading of the character from the books, so as far as I'm concerned, it's an authorial intent that utterly failed on me.) Because he was idealistic once and the only one who wanted to stand for the innocent (Rhaella). And because his arch of "redemption" isn't truly that. There's nothing interesting or credible about a character whose only goal is to become a better man no matter what. People are social beings with family, relationships and so on and they cannot be so easily dismissed. Because I am stll torn on the matter whether he would have made true to his threat to Edmure. Because I have a soft spot for children who can see disadvantaged children as something worthy of affection. Generally, children are just a step away from being little monsters to those different, albeit not to Cersei's warped level, thank god. Especially when their parents lead by example. And of course, the Brienne thing that even less people would do. The hero and the monster torn between the beauty and the ugly girl, even on different levels. He's fascinating to me.

I even believe in what he calls his honour, despite the fact that I can write an even longer reply for the reasons I don't like the arrogant asshole.

[Light a wight tonight]

Jaime is an arrogant putz who will only save maidens. This is, of course, the reason he refused Cersei's plea to return to King's Landing and save her.

[shizett]

glad you enjoyed - but I'm curious why you see Jaimes character as particularly static.  I see him as very dynamic.

for example if we compare Tyrion across all the books i don't think he has changed all that much.  He has done some deplorable things, and I think he is quite depressed in ADWD but to me he seems much the same person.  He still is fairly cynical and dismissive of others, he still has impulses to help the weak, yet he still sees the practical value of the lessons he learned from Tywin.  

Likewise, someone like Jon Snow - has he really changed, deep down?  I don't think so - even after he comes back from the dead, I suspect he will have the same goals, beliefs, and values as he has always had. 

I guess what I'm wondering is how do you define a character as static/dynamic and in that context How is Jaime less dynamic than Tyrion or Jon (just for example)? Jaime I think quite clearly has very different goals, values, and even basic thought processes when we see him by ADWD compared to when we saw him at the start of ASOS where he is all carefree arrogance?

eta: I don't think there's a difference between being a hero and acting the part.  Heros are those who choose to do heroic and selfless things. 

Oh, this is a very good question, because I might have used the wrong terms (as you probably have noticed already English is not my MT), so let me explain:

Jaime’s life is like a constant line with occasional disturbances that never develop fully. He has a pretty static life until he becomes both a Knight and a KG which is a pretty big deal for him. After hearing King Aerys’s rape of the Queen, he gets a slap in the face by a reality of being a grown up (I do not believe this has much to do with being a Knight specifically, no matter how ideal a situation, people have limited reach and power). That really bothers him but we do not hear of any other action while being KA’s KG until the sack and his killing of him. He goes back to being the exact same person before the sack (unhappy with being a knight, having affair with her sister, and basically going around killing people for causes he does not believe in and take no action for causes he says he does believe in, without the development of any meaningful relationship with anybody even his own kids) until the loss of his hand which is the other time we see a very drastic change in his attitudes. He finally opens up to Brienne and shows/remembers who he once had been. The thing is, the biggest development doesn’t come from a change in him, but a change in our own point of view. We already know 90% of what there is to know about Jaime, he adds maybe 10% to our knowledge and as a result our point of view changes about him and we think he has changed. He was always agonised by most the stuff he is currently agonised about and every single time he failed to take an action and actively changed the world for the worse. Even now, it just seems to me he has replaced Cersei with Brienne, now Brienne is the utter goodness and the only one who deserves a different treatment. Brienne is a much superior person to Cersei for sure, but this behaviour falls under the same pattern for Jaime. (After reading some of the previous comments, it might be the case that I am downplaying the impact of his actions, I am not as confident anymore).

As for Tyrion, first of all I find his character to have more sides. He is not just a half broken song. He is smart, compassionate, sympathetic, wise, highly educated, broken, insensitive, extremely abused, and conflicted. But we see each of these parts interact with the environment and develop because of it. His changes are of course not as dramatic as Jaime’s (although I am not sure Jaime himself has changed as much as our opinion of him) but by assuming different roles, his different sides gets developed too. He helps Bran, but shows pride in not accepting their hollow hospitality. He actually is one of the very few that give Joffrey useful counsel, however insensitive (He actually treats Joffrey like a human being rather than a dangerous explosive or a puppet). He gives us the story of Tysha and plays a similar play with Shae. in ADWD he has changed for the worse, he really does not care about other people’s opinion anymore, his counsel to fAegon is loaded, shows no pride by playing the role with Penny but stays rather uncooperative by never trying to better the show (which is sooo unlike Tyrion).

So, I am not sure if it makes what I meant by the static/dynamic thing more clear. Maybe I should have used engaging/disengaging? I am trying to show that true change doesn’t just come from a change in attitude but by disciplined action. Does that make sense?

[shizett]

Well, even the Aerys story has layers, for example. Jaime didn't just kill him to protect the city, he killed him because he hated his guts after he could hear him Rhaella every night. There's of course the thing about Jaime wishing he'd grow up to the Sword of the Morning but turning into the Smiling Knight instead. 

But the thing that interests me the most is how he tries to juggle being Tywin's son (heavily attached to the "Kingslayer" reputation) and doing the "right" thing at the same time (aka being "Goldenhand the Just). Feast is all about that, from the moment Cersei tells him, "You sounded just like Father for a moment", and then Genna telling him the opposite, so he goes all Tywin on poor Edmure, even if he thinks he's genuinely helping the Tullys. And he thinks, "I'll be the Kingslayer till the day I die", as Blackfish helpfully reminds him. At its core, is a story about how hard it is to turn a new leaf, or be a blank page (like Jaime thought he'd do with the White Book), because the rest of the world won't let you change, not really. But then again, his so-called "redemption" didn't come from a place of true remorse, at least not yet, as he's still punishing lords based on the authority of a king he knows to be false, and he's constantly patting himself on the back for not being overly cruel, like Tywin. So it's all a big identity mess for him.

And on top of that, there's the whole Cersei thing, how he starts to realize what a poisonous influence she was on him, and how they start to drift apart, ending the book with the "put it on the fire" line, signalling his finally breaking away from her. 

I very much enjoyed reading this, thank you

[Dofs]

But the thing that interests me the most is how he tries to juggle being Tywin's son (heavily attached to the "Kingslayer" reputation) and doing the "right" thing at the same time (aka being "Goldenhand the Just). Feast is all about that, from the moment Cersei tells him, "You sounded just like Father for a moment", and then Genna telling him the opposite, so he goes all Tywin on poor Edmure, even if he thinks he's genuinely helping the Tullys.

There is no connection between Genna telling Jaime that he is Tywin's son and Jaime doing that speech to Edmure. Jaime didn't go Tywin on Edmure so that he would be like his father, no. More, Jaime didn't want at all to go Tywin on Edmure, he only did it when he was out of options. He first spoke to Brynden offering him fair terms, trying hard to hold his tamper when Brynden was offending him (and we know how Jaime acted before when somebody spoke to him like Blackfish spoke), then when that failed he held a war council and listened to all the options that were offered to him, and the only options that he heard were connected to storming the castle. Only then he went to Edmure and still, he first offered him a similar terms he offered Blackfish and gave that trebuchet speech only when Edmure made him no options. Look here:

Edmure raised his hands from the tub and watched the water run between his fingers. "And if I will not yield?"

Must you make me say the words? Pia was standing by the flap of the tent with her arms full of clothes. His squires were listening as well, and the singer. Let them hear, Jaime thought. Let the world hear. It makes no matter. He forced himself to smile

He clearly doesn't want to tell what he had prepared: "Must you make me say the words?". Jaime is conscious of all the people around him and he doesn't them to hear what he was about to say. But he has to because he doesn't see any other way. Jaime isn't playing Tywin here at all, he does what he does because he is out of other options, short of storming the castle and he wants to do that even less. And Jaime is completely aware what the low blow that speech was:

"Long and bitter. A life without honor. Until his dying day, men will say he was afraid to fight."

Unjustly, Jaime thought. It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt. 

 Does Jaime praise himself here for his Tywin's move? No, he doesn't.

Overall, Jaime struggling with being Tywin's son is all about authority and being able to protect his family and not about Tywin's methods. Jaime disagreed with Tywin's methods:

Every crow in the Seven Kingdoms should pay homage to you, Father. From Castamere to the Blackwater, you fed them well. 

"May the Father judge him justly."

Now, there's an awful prospect.

 As Jaime Lannister and his escort wound through the rolling hills into the vale, little remained of the fields and farms and orchards that had once surrounded Raventree—only mud and ashes, and here and there the blackened shells of homes and mills. Weeds and thorns and nettles grew in that wasteland, but nothing that could be called a crop. Everywhere Jaime looked he saw his father's hand, even in the bones they sometimes glimpsed beside the road. 

 But there is no doubt that the Lannister family was protected by him and here is where Jaime is struggling with - not with becoming Tywin but with filling Tywin's space:

"Who will protect us now?"

Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."

 My father's councils never went like this, Jaime thought

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I like that he is an atheist (which makes him morally superior to deolators in my eyes), and because he questions the status quo and is not afraid to defy tradition.  He's also really funny and loves his brother even though he's a murderous little pervert.

[Curled Finger]

You have some good points here, but I think we need to look at Jaime beyond him being "privileged" because that's an easy way out to analyse  him as a character: "oh, he's a man and rich, so, he shouldn't have had problems". That's a very appalling way of thinking (I'm not saying you do think this in general, btw) because is the basis for people thinking men can't be victims of abuse (physical or sexual), which is plain wrong.

Jaime, as well as Stannis, Victarion and Sam (and few others), had the misfortune to be sensible men in a world that requires men to be tough and almost deprived from feelings and sensitivities. We see Sam suffer it the most, but he's not the only one. Stannis has shown to be a very sensitive kid from the beginning (his memories of Proudwing talk a lot about him as a child), but he was overshadowed by a more extrovert brother and mocked for being himself an introvert. Victarion, otoh, is able to notice how many things are wrong about his culture, but he can't openly denounce them because they he would be perceived as weak.

While Tyrion is the character that presents himself as someone who has a softness for "cripples, bastards and broken things", we eventually discover him doing this is nothing but a facade and a way for him to project how he would like others to treat him. During his whole trip through the Riverlands we find out is JAIME the one who actually cares for cripples, bastards and broken things and his "kingslayer" persona was the outside image. Any other man like Jaime would not really care for the smallfolk more than as an abstract concept such as "oh, I should protect my people, whoever they are!". But Jaime seems to indeed see them as human beings deserving of protection and compassion. Compare how Jaime sees Pia (as a person) and what Tyrion thinks of prostitutes in general: the difference is even bigger in Feast/Dance, when they both are at their low.

So, I guess your use of the "camel" phrase is actually fitting: Jaime had no obligation to be this good person but he is because he wants to be that, while, otoh, Tyrion needs to be this caring smart person to prove something to the world.

I think this is a remain of Martin's original outline in which Jaime was indeed a bad person who killed anyone on his way and made himself the King.  See below.

I think that naming Jaime a KG is, as he himself kinda admitted, what finally broke him. That was what turned him into a cynical man who, like the Hound, saw Knighthood as something it wasn't.

The difference between Jaime and Sandor, in this case, is that at least Jaime had Arthur as a reference of the thing he could aspire to be and what he shouldn't be. Of course, saying the KG doing (or not doing) things they shouldn't, fucked up his mind. Aerys ended up symbolising everything that was wrong and he lost it.

But an important thing many forget (and only Jaime has mentioned, and I'm sure there is a reason why) is that he was wearing his golden armour when he killed Aerys. I guess this is Jaime's inner self protecting himself from not soiling what he believes is to be a KG and a knight. That's why Jaime goes "inside": he retreats as a way to protect the real Jaime, which is why the real Jaime now is trying to kick its way out of him.

 

 

I think the point I was trying to make about Jamie is that he didn't have to become introspective about himself because of his wealth and status and power--he chose to and that's what makes the difference.  He was truly humbled and became better for the loss.  Raise that to he wants to do better because of the loss--somehow losing the thing that made him great (his sword hand) will make him a true knight.   

It's easy to forget there was this really different original story and Jamie was so going to be the BAD GUY in it.  Hasn't GRRM done a wonderful job turning it around...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think the point I was trying to make about Jamie is that he didn't have to become introspective about himself because of his wealth and status and power--he chose to and that's what makes the difference.  

Being introspective has nothing to do with your origins. In Jaime's case, he seems to have become that after he experienced many shocking events in his life, like seeing Aerys burning people alive. He was so freaked out that Hightower had to pretty much call him aside and tell him to get over with it.

He was truly humbled and became better for the loss.  Raise that to he wants to do better because of the loss--somehow losing the thing that made him great (his sword hand) will make him a true knight.   

IICR, Jaime was never actually arrogant or cruel when he was young. If we consider the conversation he has at Darrys about the Brotherhood as a reference, he had Arthur and the other KG as an example of how to deal with the common folk: win them, not butcher them. And that was even before he was a KG: it was the times when he was an squire. 

But, as I said above, what changed him into the cool arrogant man we knew in aGoT was killing Aerys. That's when he started to "go inside". What losing his hand did was revert Jaime to his original self.

[Daemrion]

There's something very compelling about a story about a bad guy trying to make himself better and turn over a new leaf.

[Nerevanin]

I see, interesting. Would you mind giving an example about his perceptiveness? I am not denying your point of view, just cannot think of a situation right now other than his idea about faith militant and Kevan in response to Cersei's actions. Are these what you meant?

Oh, I would love to but I haven't read ASOS and AFFC for sometime and although I'm currently re-reading the books, I'm just at the beginning of AGOT, so I probably can't give you an example. I just remember the feeling about it. Some events that I recall are how he tried to help Cersei while she was sinking into her paranoia or when he was deciding who should be the castellan of Harrenhal or his arrival to Riverrun... I'm sorry that I can't give a clearer answer.

EDIT: Maybe also how he explains tbe reason why he killed Aerys? But I might confuse it with the TV show, although I hope that it's not the case...

[talvikorppi]

Lots of others above have answered this question better than I can, but I like how you, OP, are open to ideas and maybe even changing yours. Old gods and new, there are enough "fanboys" and "fangirls" totally rigid in their views!

I just find Jaime the most interesting and enjoyable POV to read. We readers were first presented with this total, arrogant, EVIL shit (from mainly Stark POVs) and maybe when GRRM wrote AGOT, he still planned Jaime to be the really bad guy. Fortunately, GRRM came up with a twist.

What we've got now is so confused and messed, an anti-knight who wants to be a knight in the true sense of the word. He wants to redeem himself, his honour, but he isn't actually very good at it. He doesn't know who or what he is, he tries different approaches and is a bit smug. He needs brought down even lower and really confronting his past crimes to truly redeem himself. I like reading his arc in the books but the "redemption arc" is only beginning. I want to see if he can stay on that path or will he relapse?

I really, really like Jaime as a character and wish all the best for him but I can't see him surviving or having a happy end. There's the valonqar thing, and it'd make literary sense if he killed Cersei (after their kids are dead, perhaps due to Cersei's actions, and Cersei would've done the Aerys thing and actually burned KL with wildfire). That would make Jaime a kinslayer, cursed in the eyes of gods and men in Westeros.

Even if he survives until the ultimate war agaist the Others and even aquits himself well there... But... Well, there's the problem that he killed the Mad King ("It all comes back to Aerys", Jaime himself tells us a couple of times). Depending on how it all plays out but Jaime perhaps will have killed the future IT monarch's father or grandfather. So, no. Poor Jaime isn't gonna get out of this alive. And he'll be known as Kingslayer forever more. He might help Jon Snow save the world but he'll be known as the man with shit for honour. Poor Jaime. All your chickens coming home to roost. Your past biting you on the earse.

I'd like to add that I enjoy reading Jaime's POVs for the stuff he does not say outloud. Reading his private thoughts while he's being courteous is hilarious and also profound. He's so deadpan and spot-on. Blackfish rants and insults him, finishing with "Do you even know what honour is?" A horse, Jaime thinks. This is important on severel levels. Firstly, the horse is named by Jaime's young squire/hostage, Little Lew Piper, whom Jaime has grown fond of (Little Lew brought Jaime blackberries in his helmet, aww...) Little Lew named Jaime's horses Honour and Glory, and Jaime doesn't like it at first, but later lets it go. But what is honour? Jaime sarkily thinks it's a horse. That's how highly he thinks of chivalry and the knightly code. Yet he tries to live up to it. Jeesh, he's one screwed up individual.

That's why I like the character, POV character Jaime.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Tysha is often brought up to show what a prick Jamie is.   Not so.   I defy you to show me a place in your past where a gift you thought was brilliant turned out badly or unexpectedly.  Jamie didn't think ahead is what Tysha was.  Jamie wanted to get his brother laid.   He had no idea Tyrion would fall in love and marry the girl.   Jamie couldn't have seen Tywin's punishment either.   There is no fault in a gesture of kindness that goes out of the control of the giver.   

 

Jaime did not really buy Tysha, that's just what he told Tyrion.  She was just a 13 year old girl, not a prostitute.

[Curled Finger]

Jaime did not really buy Tysha, that's just what he told Tyrion.  She was just a 13 year old girl, not a prostitute.

I never said he did.   My statement went entirely to Jamie's intentions.  Not sure where you got it from.  

[TheLightning Lord]

Because he's the most complex/interesting

Also he's the funniest character

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Why do I like Jaime?

Because he gave Bran his first diving lesson, on dry land. 

 

 

Seriously, I don't like Jaime at all.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I never said he did.   My statement went entirely to Jamie's intentions.  Not sure where you got it from.  

you said something about not blaming Jaime for the Tysha thing, that sometimes you buy a gift that doesn't work out, and he was just trying to get his little brother laid. That made me think you believed the story that Jaime was somehow responsible for Tyrion hooking up with Tysha, when that was just what he told Tyrion... Maybe I quoted the wrong poster?  On phone too big of a pain to double check.

[shizett]

I thought I knew Jaime and couldn't figure out the fans, it turned out I learned a lot about both. Thank you everybody who answered, I really enjoyed the discussions

[Winter's Cold]

I view him the same way I do Theon. A bad person who has done some good things and a very interesting character.

[Tianzi]

I like Jaime, because:

a. He's hot.

b. He's interesting to read about.

Here, I said it.

OK, I oversimplified it a little, because I do appreciate his character development and complexity and it's always something refreshing about a person who is an ass and learns to be less of an ass. Oh, and I like his relationship with Brienne. But I don't really link his moral status to how I enjoy him as a character. It's for his Lannister wit (in his edition is not tiresome, as in ever-smartass Tyrion's case or with Cersei's aggressive bitterness), for his vivacious personality, his surprising sensibility when he eventually decides to be responsible and starts cleaning the Riverlands' mess. His POV chapters have a good flow. I agree that he's been a bit of a Golden Boy in a bad meaning and hid behind his privilege, and well, if it's a deal-breaker for someone, as in OP, I understand why they cannot like Jaime. But he is moving in a right direction.

Oh, and as for morality, it is going to be unpopular opinion, but I like him much better at the 'Things I do for love' moment than when he burns Cersei's letter (not giving a shit what his abandonment of her is going to mean for their children, for one).

And the bear-pit incident... I can't help it, I just have a reader-crush on this guy.