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redtree

Why didn't Barristan leave Joffrey ?

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Barristan took an oath to protect the king, not the Targaryen family. After Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, and Robert declared king he had no obligation to serve any Targaryen. There was no Targaryen regime to turn his cloak on. The Targarysn dynasty was broken and the heir in exile. The new king offered Barristan his old job back and he accepted, as did Jaime. 

The statement that he stood aside while Aerys committed various atrocities is equally true for Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, Lewyn Martel, Jaime Lannister and the rest of the KG. 

Saying that he was used up and needed to be replaced is actually funny when you see that Boros Blount and Meryn Trant, were kept. If Sandor had to become a KG Blount should have been sacked, not Barristan. The move was purely political, removing someone who wasn't obligated to the Lannisters, not replacing in ineffectual old man. The fact is that under Robert's negligent rule the KG declined in quality, from either Varys's or the Lannisters' conniving. 

Mostly this.

Also remember that Robert saved Barristan's life after the battle of the Trident. Roose Bolton suggested that they slit his throat and Robert said no and sent his own maester to heal Barristan.  Barristan is probably grateful for that.

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I just want to point out that Barry didn't really have solid evidence of Joffrey being a violent psycho by the time he was fired. Remember that this was before Joff showed his true colors by ordering Ned's death and Sansa's beatings. Well, okay, there was that deal with Joff ripping open that cat to look at her stillborn kittens, but I guess in Westeros that almost counts as Biology class. Only Stannis was horrified by that, but that's because he's an animal person. 

So Barry can only use the "I was serving a crazy person" card once, if you ask me.

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It's interesting to see many thinks that KG's duty is to serve the king, doesn't matter if the new king killed the previous king's heir and couldn't care less that the new queen's family butchered the previous king's grandchildren and killed the king and the new king gave no punishment at all, not even slap on the wrist. Normal people especially the people who was sworn to defend with their life them would've been at the very least furious or disgusted at that kind of thing let alone serve them but considering that KGs are robot who only serve king no matter how he got the throne i guess there's no problem for him.

He was a turncloak, from his words he knows he's a turncloak. How other poster deny it is beyond me

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Of course Barristan was furious about the children.  He even says in ADWD: if he had seen Robert smiling over the bodies of babes, nothing could have stayed his blade.  But, like Ned he decided that trying to stabilize the new regime was the lesser of two evils.

remember, again he had basically three options after Robert spared him.  Exile/wall, serve Robert, or help to start a civil war in Westeros.  Of those options, He thought serving Robert would be the best for the realm and he was probably right.  

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It's like being a priest. You don't serve "a Pope". You serve "the Pope", whoever the Pope is.

Different thing, priest serves God not the Pope, they do not sworn to defend the Pope with their life 

Of course Barristan was furious about the children.  He even says in ADWD: if he had seen Robert smiling over the bodies of babes, nothing could have stayed his blade.  But, like Ned he decided that trying to stabilize the new regime was the lesser of two evils.

remember, again he had basically three options after Robert spared him.  Exile/wall, serve Robert, or help to start a civil war in Westeros.  Of those options, He thought serving Robert would be the best for the realm and he was probably right.  

No, but the rebellion faction just did absolutely nothing about the murder and make the daughter of said house the queen but Barristan justified it i suppose. Worse, then he became the honor guard to take Cersei from CR to KL. Served the family who butchered the previous family he was sworn to death to. If he had any shred of loyalty or emotion he wouldn't want to serve Robert but he did anyway because of the glitz of being Lord Commander of KG

I just want to point out that Barry didn't really have solid evidence of Joffrey being a violent psycho by the time he was fired. Remember that this was before Joff showed his true colors by ordering Ned's death and Sansa's beatings. Well, okay, there was that deal with Joff ripping open that cat to look at her stillborn kittens, but I guess in Westeros that almost counts as Biology class. Only Stannis was horrified by that, but that's because he's an animal person. 

So Barry can only use the "I was serving a crazy person" card once, if you ask me.

Robert was disgusted too if i remember correctly, he slapped Joff so hard that Cersei made a threat to Robert.

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Different thing, priest serves God not the Pope, they do not sworn to defend the Pope with their life 

The Swiss Guard does. Or any kind of guard, now I think about it.

I mentioned priests because knighthood is kinda related to the Faith.

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Robert was disgusted too if i remember correctly, he slapped Joff so hard that Cersei made a threat to Robert.

Oh, yeah, that's right! But anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Barry thinking of Joffrey as a psycho or whatever, just, I think, as generally annoying brat unfit to be king. I could be wrong, though.

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Oh, yeah, that's right! But anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Barry thinking of Joffrey as a psycho or whatever, just, I think, as generally annoying brat unfit to be king. I could be wrong, though.

While Barristan isn't exactly the best person to judge people's characters (honestly, he sucks at it), I guess he simply hoped that Joffrey would grow up from his awful personality, and that his family would make sure of it.

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While Barristan isn't exactly the best person to judge people's characters (honestly, he sucks at it), I guess he simply hoped that Joffrey would grow up from his awful personality, and that his family would make sure of it.

If he wasn't dismissed, do you think Barristan would have stood by Joffery through his reign of terror?

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If he wasn't dismissed, do you think Barristan would have stood by Joffery through his reign of terror?

Yes, he did say to Dany if he hadn't been dismissed he still would've served Joffrey

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If he wasn't dismissed, do you think Barristan would have stood by Joffery through his reign of terror?

Yes, he did say to Dany if he hadn't been dismissed he still would've served Joffrey

Barristan couldn't have known how bad Joffrey was going to get. While he did serve Aerys, he met him for many years before Aerys turned mad. He knew his mind deteriorated so bad that he was beyond help and, as Jaime pointed out to Trant, the KG was there to protect the King even from himself. Maybe Barristan felt actually compassion for the Mad King :dunno: In Joffrey's case, Barristan wasn't going to spend twenty years seeing him being going from over-the-top to madly cruel. Joffrey was like that from starters and at some point, Barristan was going to realise this.

The relationship between the King and his KG is very close. I'm sure there is a big reason why Martin was careful on sending both Jaime and Barristan away during the time Joffrey was punishing Sansa: both of them would have advised Joffrey against it, or even said "no". Remember Barristan was able to convince Aerys to save Dontos, Arthur talked to the King in name of the common folk, and Jaime was very serious about telling Trant and others that they should NOT obey Tommen if his orders were problematic. They aren't the mindless robots people think they are.

So, as for the original question, it's very hard to know, and it would depend on many factors. With Jaime being there, for example, I feel like Joffrey could have been under control and he and Barristan could have ended up being a good influence (maybe Jaime could have realised Cersei was a bad influence and he could have suggested Joffrey to send her away).

But at the same time, just as Martin made sure neither J or B were present when Sansa was being tortured, he also didnt' include them in whatever Aerys' guard was plotting. We know that, narratively, is because they are now PoV and we should have ended up knowing too soon what Rhaegar was up to. But, in text, I guess it was because Arthur and the others (minus Jaime) thought Barristan would NEVER betray or act against the King, even if the King was dangerously crazy. We'll have to trust them on this because they knew Barristan better than we do.

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He surely abandoned rhaella and viserys for Robert. 

There is no doubt about this. 

Even he claims viserys is mad, rhaella and unborn child are still there. 

He just betrayed Targ. 

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He surely abandoned rhaella and viserys for Robert. 

There is no doubt about this. 

Even he claims viserys is mad, rhaella and unborn child are still there. 

He just betrayed Targ. 

Robert Baratheon saved his life, and let him keep his White Cloak.

If I was Robert, I would have at the very least sent him back to Harvest Hall in disgrace.

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Barristan couldn't have known how bad Joffrey was going to get. While he did serve Aerys, he met him for many years before Aerys turned mad. He knew his mind deteriorated so bad that he was beyond help and, as Jaime pointed out to Trant, the KG was there to protect the King even from himself. Maybe Barristan felt actually compassion for the Mad King :dunno: In Joffrey's case, Barristan wasn't going to spend twenty years seeing him being going from over-the-top to madly cruel. Joffrey was like that from starters and at some point, Barristan was going to realise this.

The relationship between the King and his KG is very close. I'm sure there is a big reason why Martin was careful on sending both Jaime and Barristan away during the time Joffrey was punishing Sansa: both of them would have advised Joffrey against it, or even said "no". Remember Barristan was able to convince Aerys to save Dontos, Arthur talked to the King in name of the common folk, and Jaime was very serious about telling Trant and others that they should NOT obey Tommen if his orders were problematic. They aren't the mindless robots people think they are.

So, as for the original question, it's very hard to know, and it would depend on many factors. With Jaime being there, for example, I feel like Joffrey could have been under control and he and Barristan could have ended up being a good influence (maybe Jaime could have realised Cersei was a bad influence and he could have suggested Joffrey to send her away).

But at the same time, just as Martin made sure neither J or B were present when Sansa was being tortured, he also didnt' include them in whatever Aerys' guard was plotting. We know that, narratively, is because they are now PoV and we should have ended up knowing too soon what Rhaegar was up to. But, in text, I guess it was because Arthur and the others (minus Jaime) thought Barristan would NEVER betray or act against the King, even if the King was dangerously crazy. We'll have to trust them on this because they knew Barristan better than we do.

A very thorough response, well thought-out.

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He surely abandoned rhaella and viserys for Robert. 

There is no doubt about this. 

Even he claims viserys is mad, rhaella and unborn child are still there. 

He just betrayed Targ. 

the option is support another civil war in Westeros to place a budding mad king Aerys on the throne, or try to stabilize the current regime.  

Prople keep saying Barry is a KG robot or something bit he isn't.  He did what he thought was best at each juncture.

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Which chapter is that ? It's an elite bodyguard squad for those of royal blood not just the kingThe oath is to defend to their death, not to flee to the new king who murdered the previous royal family he sworned to

"a knight of the Kingsguard was supposed to die in defense of the king and royal family"
- ACOK

 

“Strictly speaking, it was purely the king’s choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree..." - The Queensguard

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Oh, yeah, that's right! But anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Barry thinking of Joffrey as a psycho or whatever, just, I think, as generally annoying brat unfit to be king. I could be wrong, though.

we don't have a POV from Barristan at that time so we have no idea what he thought of Joffrey. 

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we don't have a POV from Barristan at that time so we have no idea what he thought of Joffrey. 

We have his POV now and looking back he doesn't think Joff was an Aerys-type lunatic, as far as I remember

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We have his POV now and looking back he doesn't think Joff was an Aerys-type lunatic, as far as I remember

Barristan has a massive amount of things on his plate during his POV with overthrowing the king and starting a war so I don't think he spent one second thinking about a dead king he couldn't stand . Joffrey also was probably pretty careful about keeping his psycho side under control while he was the prince , he did have a younger brother and if he showed any signs about being another Aerys he could have been set aside for his brother.  . 

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