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redtree

Why didn't Barristan leave Joffrey ?

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the option is support another civil war in Westeros to place a budding mad king Aerys on the throne, or try to stabilize the current regime.  

Prople keep saying Barry is a KG robot or something bit he isn't.  He did what he thought was best at each juncture.

He didn't have to make another civil war, but if he wanted he could've at least protect Viserys and his newborn sister like what Willem Darry did, in line with his oath. Serving enemies of family he was sworn to was cold, especially when those enemies butchered the heirs. He was attracted to the position of LC, that's it

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He didn't have to make another civil war, but if he wanted he could've at least protect Viserys and his newborn sister like what Willem Darry did, in line with his oath. Serving enemies of family he was sworn to was cold, especially when those enemies butchered the heirs. He was attracted to the position of LC, that's it

Willam Darry was on Dragonstone with the children while Barristan was in a hospital after being nearly mortally wounded at the Trident . He would have died if Robert had not sent him his Maester . So how was Barristan supposed to protect the children ? Is Jon Arryn going to just let him leave to go join the Targ heirs? Why would he allow that ? 

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He didn't have to make another civil war, but if he wanted he could've at least protect Viserys and his newborn sister like what Willem Darry did, in line with his oath. Serving enemies of family he was sworn to was cold, especially when those enemies butchered the heirs. He was attracted to the position of LC, that's it

Barristan served the realm, all his years.  It went beyond serving the king or the royal family, which I think is where some people are getting confused.  If you just put yourself in his shoes for two seconds it's not hard to understand his actions.  Just have a little imagination. 

Under Aerys, we know he was deeply saddened by Aerys turn from apparently charming young man to sadistic tyrant. He knew him from birth, after all.  We know at the same time he had great hopes for Rhaegar, as did everyone.  I am all but certain that if Rhaegars plan to remove Aerys from power went through, that Barristan would have supported it.  In the war, Barristan fought to protect the royal family, and for the stability of the realm with Rhaegar to take over from his mad father sooner or later.

after Rhaegar died and Robert is crowned, he can help to do what he can to stabilize the realm, or he can support the claim of a already mentally unstable son of Aerys.  Ultimately, supporting exiled King Viserys means supporting a civil war in Westeros - I don't see how it doesn't - what is he king of if not Westeros?

Finally again for your OP question, Barristan hoped to avoid a repeat of the Aerys situation with Joffery.  He hoped that He could HELP Joffery become a better person and prevent him from becoming a tyrant which is clearly one of Barristans biggest regrets - that he failed to help Aerys. These were Roberts wishes on his death bed, too.  Again Barristan is doing what he thinks is right and honorable for the realm. 

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Willam Darry was on Dragonstone with the children while Barristan was in a hospital after being nearly mortally wounded at the Trident . He would have died if Robert had not sent him his Maester . So how was Barristan supposed to protect the children ? Is Jon Arryn going to just let him leave to go join the Targ heirs? Why would he allow that ? 

That was the other choice rather than make civil war as the previous poster i quoted said, in my previous post i said that Robert was rather gracious with those who surrender. He could've taken the black like the Tully's household member when Tully lost Riverrun, they probably to disgusted to serve Frey. Why didn't he behave like that ?

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That was the other choice rather than make civil war as the previous poster i quoted said, in my previous post i said that Robert was rather gracious with those who surrender. He could've taken the black like the Tully's household member when Tully lost Riverrun, they probably to disgusted to serve Frey. Why didn't he behave like that ?

Simply because he believed that he could serve the realm better as KG to Robert than on the wall.  I think he was probably right, given the information he had at the time. No one was anticipating wildling or WW invasions 15 years ago, and the realm was in a precarious position with the new regime and could use a symbol of legitimacy like Barristan.

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Barristan served the realm, all his years.  It went beyond serving the king or the royal family, which I think is where some people are getting confused.  If you just put yourself in his shoes for two seconds it's not hard to understand his actions.  Just have a little imagination. 

If i were him i would be disgusted to serve Robert and Cersei, would rather take the black just like house Tully's household member. 

after Rhaegar died and Robert is crowned, he can help to do what he can to stabilize the realm, or he can support the claim of a already mentally unstable son of Aerys.  Ultimately, supporting exiled King Viserys means supporting a civil war in Westeros - I don't see how it doesn't - what is he king of if not Westeros?

There's no proof except his words that Viserys was unstable, what did a 7 year old could do to be called unstable ? If he did something at Joffrey level i'd be worry but he didn't. Dany herself said that Viserys was a kind brother at first, Barristan had motives to said that to be forgiven but Dany in her POV was honest to herself. Maybe Barry didn't lie but it's possible that he exaggerated small stuffs and use it as a justification and excuse

Finally again for your OP question, Barristan hoped to avoid a repeat of the Aerys situation with Joffery.  He hoped that He could HELP Joffery become a better person and prevent him from becoming a tyrant which is clearly one of Barristans biggest regrets - that he failed to help Aerys. These were Roberts wishes on his death bed, too.  Again Barristan is doing what he thinks is right and honorable for the realm. 

Why not helped Viserys ? Right, because he wasn't backed by power and Joffrey was. It's easier

Simply because he believed that he could serve the realm better as KG to Robert than on the wall.  

He's a knight, he wouldn't matter much to the realm's stabilization. It's about how seriously he took his oath

 

I guess we have to disagree, i think it's cold to serve other family who killed and approved killing of the family member he swore to protect and defend under the motive that it's best for the realm with reason solely based on a 6-7 year old kid's mental condition. 

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Barristan has a massive amount of things on his plate during his POV with overthrowing the king and starting a war so I don't think he spent one second thinking about a dead king he couldn't stand . Joffrey also was probably pretty careful about keeping his psycho side under control while he was the prince , he did have a younger brother and if he showed any signs about being another Aerys he could have been set aside for his brother.  . 

Barristan thinks about every king he served. And he doesn't even know Joffrey is dead yet.

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There's no proof except his words that Viserys was unstable, what did a 7 year old could do to be called unstable ? If he did something at Joffrey level i'd be worry but he didn't. Dany herself said that Viserys was a kind brother at first, Barristan had motives to said that to be forgiven but Dany in her POV was honest to herself. Maybe Barry didn't lie but it's possible that he exaggerated small stuffs and use it as a justification and excuse

Because Dany is clearly the objective in regards to Viserys.

Barristan wouldn't have denigrated Viserys without reason - he had no problem in calling Aerys the Mad King or praising Rhaegar so he's clearly too honest to say that Viserys seemed crazy when he wasn't.

That was the other choice rather than make civil war as the previous poster i quoted said, in my previous post i said that Robert was rather gracious with those who surrender. He could've taken the black like the Tully's household member when Tully lost Riverrun, they probably to disgusted to serve Frey. Why didn't he behave like that ?

Because unlike the Freys who dishonestly stabbed their liege in the back during a wedding breaking at least a dozen laws and customs in the process the Baratheons were cruelly wronged by the Targs and then won the Throne by honest combat.

Robert had his future bride kidnapped, the Stark trial happened and the Targs lost a lot of legitimacy because of that stuff - Jaime's not the only one to struggle with conflicting duties.

 

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It is pretty clear to me all Ser Barristan in his life is to be a Kingsguard, something must have happend to him in his childhood to make him have such obsession, That obession makes him to serve KIng Robert who killed his King and crown prince because Robert took him back to service and let him continue to be a Kingsguard, and that obession made him prepare to swear fealty to King Jofferey despite knowing perfectly clear what kind of person King Jofferey is, and as soon as Jofferey and Cersei dismissed him from the Kingsguard, he immediately become their enemy and go to looking for Danny right way, of course in order to be a kIngsguard again. It would be interesting what he would do if he and Danny have a fallout and Danny dismiss him from her service?

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Barristan thinks about every king he served. And he doesn't even know Joffrey is dead yet.

Barristan's POV is at the end of ADWD so you are are saying that he does not know Joffrey is dead by then ? how is that possible? Tyrion was right outside the gates of Mereen and it took him months to get from Kings Landing to Meereen so in all those months nobody ever told anyone in Meereen that the King of Westeroes was murdered? I don't think that there was any way that Barristan and the rest of Meereen did not know that Joffrey was dead.  

Do you have a quote where Barristan thought about Joffrery one way or the other in his POV? 

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He didn't have to make another civil war, but if he wanted he could've at least protect Viserys and his newborn sister like what Willem Darry did, in line with his oath. Serving enemies of family he was sworn to was cold, especially when those enemies butchered the heirs. He was attracted to the position of LC, that's it

It's called the KINGSguard, not the Targaryenguard.  Let's go through Barry's journey:

1) Becomes Kingsguard, all he ever wanted.  Yay!

2) King turns into a psycho.  Barry feels conflicted about serving such an awful king.

3) King dies while Barry does his best for him despite this guilt.  New king has taken control of the realm, has shown compassion and generosity towards him, and Barry (admittedly wrongly) thinks he will be a good king.  Here are his choices: take the black or serve this new king.  Again, Barry is conflicted, but chooses to stay in his position and protects the new king.  Kingsguards are, after all, sworn for life, and here's the king.

4) King is something of a failure.  Sadface.  King dies.  New king dismisses Barry.  Now he's free to do what he likes.  And at this point, he realises that what he wants to do is serve the best king (or queen) he can find, one he thinks will be good for the realm.  So he travels to find the last Targaryen (i.e. the only current alternative) and tests them to see if they are worthy.  He thinks they are, so he swears fealty.

I really really really don't see what's so odd about any of this.  It's not simple, and Barry recognises that.  These are tough choices - serve a mad king? serve a mad child in an attempt to bring civil war? take the black and run away from all of it? retire peacefully or support a new rebellion against a regime you believe corrupt? - and you can argue that he made wrong choices here or there, but to present it as "You're the kingsguard so you serve. . .uh. . .the crazy child who isn't king, even when he has no potential of being king" - that doesn't make sense to me.  

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So, Marston Waters did stay to serve Aegon II.

It´s odd that Aegon II did not fill in the vacancies. Did he, for example, designate a Lord Commander after ser Criston?

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It's called the KINGSguard, not the Targaryenguard.  Let's go through Barry's journey:

1) Becomes Kingsguard, all he ever wanted.  Yay!

2) King turns into a psycho.  Barry feels conflicted about serving such an awful king.

3) King dies while Barry does his best for him despite this guilt.  New king has taken control of the realm, has shown compassion and generosity towards him, and Barry (admittedly wrongly) thinks he will be a good king.  Here are his choices: take the black or serve this new king.  Again, Barry is conflicted, but chooses to stay in his position and protects the new king.  Kingsguards are, after all, sworn for life, and here's the king.

4) King is something of a failure.  Sadface.  King dies.  New king dismisses Barry.  Now he's free to do what he likes.  And at this point, he realises that what he wants to do is serve the best king (or queen) he can find, one he thinks will be good for the realm.  So he travels to find the last Targaryen (i.e. the only current alternative) and tests them to see if they are worthy.  He thinks they are, so he swears fealty.

I really really really don't see what's so odd about any of this.  It's not simple, and Barry recognises that.  These are tough choices - serve a mad king? serve a mad child in an attempt to bring civil war? take the black and run away from all of it? retire peacefully or support a new rebellion against a regime you believe corrupt? - and you can argue that he made wrong choices here or there, but to present it as "You're the kingsguard so you serve. . .uh. . .the crazy child who isn't king, even when he has no potential of being king" - that doesn't make sense to me.  

:agree:

Barristan isn't perfect. Even though he's smart and has experience of age, he makes mistakes. He thought he would do good by serving Robert and he was wrong. He admitted this mistake by trying to serve a better King instead of simply running and be safe.The fact he went to Dany and not Stannis is an indication that he came to realise the Baratheons regime was something he shouldn't have supported.

Also, many KG acted on their own through history. Maelor was killed by his own guard.

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Because Dany is clearly the objective in regards to Viserys.

Objective ? She came to realize that he was weak and cruel, that's a rather low point for objective person

Robert had his future bride kidnapped, the Stark trial happened and the Targs lost a lot of legitimacy because of that stuff - Jaime's not the only one to struggle with conflicting duties.

And then Jon Arryn didn't even give a slap on the wrist to Tywin and rewarded with queenship instead. Robert pretty much just called them dragonspawn and apparently paid no mind to Elia Martell, that should affect his mind

It is pretty clear to me all Ser Barristan in his life is to be a Kingsguard, something must have happend to him in his childhood to make him have such obsession, That obession makes him to serve KIng Robert who killed his King and crown prince because Robert took him back to service and let him continue to be a Kingsguard, and that obession made him prepare to swear fealty to King Jofferey despite knowing perfectly clear what kind of person King Jofferey is, and as soon as Jofferey and Cersei dismissed him from the Kingsguard, he immediately become their enemy and go to looking for Danny right way, of course in order to be a kIngsguard again. It would be interesting what he would do if he and Danny have a fallout and Danny dismiss him from her service?

Quite right

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snip

I'm too lazy to retyped my arguments that i've posted before, but many has said the same like yours

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Barristan always struck me as something of a hypocrite. He openly disdained Jaime for slaying Aerys and betraying his cloak. Yet Barristan himself did it just to stay alive and continue to serve as Kingsguard, no matter to who. Jaime at least soiled his cloak to prevent a whole city from burning. Barristan only "saw the light" or however you want to phrase it after Joffrey dismissed him. If Barristan was going to be true to his vows he would've fought to the death at the Trident or escaped at first opportunity to serve Viserys.

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Barristan's POV is at the end of ADWD so you are are saying that he does not know Joffrey is dead by then ? how is that possible? Tyrion was right outside the gates of Mereen and it took him months to get from Kings Landing to Meereen so in all those months nobody ever told anyone in Meereen that the King of Westeroes was murdered? I don't think that there was any way that Barristan and the rest of Meereen did not know that Joffrey was dead.  

Do you have a quote where Barristan thought about Joffrery one way or the other in his POV? 

I don't have the books with me right now, but I honestly don't remember Barry thinking about Joff's death. Which makes sense, considering a besieged, tradeless Meereen would be a hard place to get current news updates from the other side of the world. But I could be wrong.

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It is pretty clear to me all Ser Barristan in his life is to be a Kingsguard, something must have happend to him in his childhood to make him have such obsession, That obession makes him to serve KIng Robert who killed his King and crown prince because Robert took him back to service and let him continue to be a Kingsguard, and that obession made him prepare to swear fealty to King Jofferey despite knowing perfectly clear what kind of person King Jofferey is, and as soon as Jofferey and Cersei dismissed him from the Kingsguard, he immediately become their enemy and go to looking for Danny right way, of course in order to be a kIngsguard again. It would be interesting what he would do if he and Danny have a fallout and Danny dismiss him from her service?

Robert didn't kill his king, IIRC. That was Jaime, and had nothing to do with Robert. It was to keep Aerys from burning King's Landing with all its inhabitants.

He killed Rhaegar in single combat, in battle, in a justifiable rebellion against a dynasty that had gone bad. You could call Rhaegar's death a form of suicide or an act of overconficence, as with Beowulf fighting the dragon. The situation existed. Robert hated Rhaegar and they fought. Was Robert to just stand there and let the Rhae-man kill him?

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I'm too lazy to retyped my arguments that i've posted before, but many has said the same like yours

I think your fundamental issue is that you can't see that he took an oath to serve the king and, at the time he has to make his decision, the king is clearly Robert.  The king is very much not Viserys when you're saying he should be serving Viserys, so he'd be abandoning the king if he were to go there.  There is no Targaryenguard, there's a Kingsguard, and that's the organisation Barry is a member of.  For oaths specifically, we don't know the exact wording, and it's entirely possible that he fulfilled it by working for Robert - remember that the Kingsguard is a knightly order, and knights are a religious institution as well as military.  When Barry makes his choice, I believe the High Septon had crowned Robert as the king.

If you want to argue he had a duty outside of his Kingsguard ones to serve the Targaryens - well, maybe, but he had no reason to feel particularly attached to them outside of the crown he'd sworn himself to thanks to the Mad King.  I think if you want to argue that, you have to divorce it from his duty as a serving Kingsguard.

For the record, the rest of my post was an attempt to clarify Barry's decision making and make it more ordered for discussion, not to suggest particularly new points.

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I don't have the books with me right now, but I honestly don't remember Barry thinking about Joff's death. Which makes sense, considering a besieged, tradeless Meereen would be a hard place to get current news updates from the other side of the world. But I could be wrong.

why would he think about Joffrey's death ? he had enough going on with Dany missing and overthrowing the King and starting a war that he did not have time to think about Joffrey . 

Tyrion was able to travel over half the world to get to Meereen so i have a hard time believing that the news of a King of Westeroes being murdered by his uncle (which would be huge news especially to Dany who wants to be Queen of Westeroes ) would not also travel to Meereen in that time . . 

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