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redtree

Why didn't Barristan leave Joffrey ?

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And then Jon Arryn didn't even give a slap on the wrist to Tywin and rewarded with queenship instead. Robert pretty much just called them dragonspawn and apparently paid no mind to Elia Martell, that should affect his mind

 

Erm... why? The Kingsguard obey the king. Why should Barristan feel a special attachment to Elia Martell, who was Rhaegar's wife?

House Selmy is from the Stormlands - they have traditionally bad relationships with the Dornish so there's zero reason to believe Barristan would care that much more for Elia. Doesn't mean he's happy her killers got unpunished but he's hardly going to be crushed over it. Barristan was profoundly unhappy about the Targ children because they were children, not because they were Targaryens.

 

Barristan always struck me as something of a hypocrite. He openly disdained Jaime for slaying Aerys and betraying his cloak. Yet Barristan himself did it just to stay alive and continue to serve as Kingsguard, no matter to who. Jaime at least soiled his cloak to prevent a whole city from burning. Barristan only "saw the light" or however you want to phrase it after Joffrey dismissed him. If Barristan was going to be true to his vows he would've fought to the death at the Trident or escaped at first opportunity to serve Viserys.

Remember that nobody but Jaime knew about the wildfire.

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Robert didn't kill his king, IIRC. That was Jaime, and had nothing to do with Robert. It was to keep Aerys from burning King's Landing with all its inhabitants.

He killed Rhaegar in single combat, in battle, in a justifiable rebellion against a dynasty that had gone bad. You could call Rhaegar's death a form of suicide or an act of overconficence, as with Beowulf fighting the dragon. The situation existed. Robert hated Rhaegar and they fought. Was Robert to just stand there and let the Rhae-man kill him?

I know Rober did not personaly kill his king, but those men who Killed King and King's family served Robert, are they? I would not argue with you whether Robert's rebellion was "a justifiable rebellion against a dynasty that had gone bad", just point out the fact Barristan swore an oath to protect Targaryn King's family, he did not need to revenge for mad King, but was it an honorable thing to server some new King who have these who him swore to protect with his own life killed ?

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If i were him i would be disgusted to serve Robert and Cersei, would rather take the black just like house Tully's household member.

Do we even know that Cersei and Robert were already wed at the time Barristan was reinstated?  In any case even though Barristan hated what Tywin did and surely wanted him punished, it would have been quite unfair to hold it against young cersei.  Barristan can't see the future.

There's no proof except his words that Viserys was unstable, what did a 7 year old could do to be called unstable ? If he did something at Joffrey level i'd be worry but he didn't. Dany herself said that Viserys was a kind brother at first, Barristan had motives to said that to be forgiven but Dany in her POV was honest to herself. Maybe Barry didn't lie but it's possible that he exaggerated small stuffs and use it as a justification and excuse

i think Dany was a victim of lifetime abuse.  It's extremely common for abused persons to make excuses for their abusers.  Anyway I think it's more important that Barristan joining Viserys would go a long way in legitimizing his claim, which would in the long run destabilize the current regime and possibly lead to civil war. Think about when Oberyn raised banners for Viserys - if Barristan was with them, that might have even come to something.

Why not helped Viserys ? Right, because he wasn't backed by power and Joffrey was. It's easier

He's a knight, he wouldn't matter much to the realm's stabilization. It's about how seriously he took his oath

He matters a lot!  Look at how Tywin reacts to what Cersei and Joffery did.  Hey see how important Barristan is as a symbol of legitimacy.  Stannis or Renlys claim would have been helped greatly by Barristan at his side. 

I guess we have to disagree, i think it's cold to serve other family who killed and approved killing of the family member he swore to protect and defend under the motive that it's best for the realm with reason solely based on a 6-7 year old kid's mental condition. 

each time he weighs his options carefully and makes a decision.  In hindsight he regrets some of them.  Is it possible that some of what motivates him is protecting his current position and lifestyle (basically, his reason for existing)?  Can't be ruled out.  But I don't see how that makes him an evil hypocrite even if it's part of his motivation.  He's a person trying to do his best which is all we can really ask of anyone, IMO.

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Because Barristan was loyal to the job and not the monarch.  He has seen the error of his ways and is now well on his way to mending the error.  White Bull, Dayne, and Whent chose death rather than switch their allegiance to the Usurper.  That's how it should have been. 

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Because Barristan was loyal to the job and not the monarch.  He has seen the error of his ways and is now well on his way to mending the error.  White Bull, Dayne, and Whent chose death rather than switch their allegiance to the Usurper.  That's how it should have been. 

I don't think that's a totally fair comparison.  The other KG were never in a position like Barristan so we don't know what they would have chosen.  The difference between them is that Barristan was only gravely wounded in fighting for the Tagaryen royalty rather than dying like they did.  Do we know what the White Bull, etc. might have done had they met Barry's choice in a post-Targaryen world?  Would they definitely have taken the black?  Well, maybe.  IDK.

It's worth noting that according to a lot of fairly reasonable theorising, the KG actually were planning treason against the king in favour of the crown prince.  Barristan wasn't.  So can we really criticise him for changing allegiance in comparison to the rest of the guard, which was made up of kingmakers and the kingslayer?  :P

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White Bull, Dayne, and Whent chose death rather than switch their allegiance to the Usurper.  That's how it should have been. 

No. They should have followed Viserys and Rhaella to Dragonstone, and then Essos, like Eddard told. Not hang around the mistress of the dead and disinherited crown prince.

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I know Rober did not personaly kill his king, but those men who Killed King and King's family served Robert, are they? I would not argue with you whether Robert's rebellion was "a justifiable rebellion against a dynasty that had gone bad", just point out the fact Barristan swore an oath to protect Targaryn King's family, he did not need to revenge for mad King, but was it an honorable thing to server some new King who have these who him swore to protect with his own life killed ?

And it's been pointed out that Barristan was nearly killed fighting against the rebellion. And Jaime was a member of Arys's King's Guard, not working for Robert until much later. 

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And it's been pointed out that Barristan was nearly killed fighting against the rebellion. And Jaime was a member of Arys's King's Guard, not working for Robert until much later. 

 Arys and his family were kileed by Tywin's men and Jaime who is Tywin's son, Tywin swore fealty to Robert, hence the blood of family of King were on Robert's hands, though I never deny he fought bravely for Tagaryns,, but it does not change the fact that Barristan eventually agrees to serve the man who have his old master killed, so it is NOT a honorable thing to do since he could choose retire. I would guess the reason was nothing but his obbesesion for being a member of Kingsguard

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 Arys and his family were kileed by Tywin's men and Jaime who is Tywin's son, Tywin swore fealty to Robert, hence the blood of family of King were on Robert's hands, though I never deny he fought bravely for Tagaryns,, but it does not change the fact that Barristan eventually agrees to serve the man who have his old master killed, so it is NOT a honorable thing to do since he could choose retire. I would guess the reason was nothing but his obbesesion for being a member of Kingsguard

why is it more "honorable" to retire to obscurity rather than continue to serve your country? I'd argue It's dishonorable, even, if you could serve and make a difference, but choose to do nothing. 

I think your view of honor is even more rigid than Barristans, and many fans accuse him of being too inflexible. 

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why is it more "honorable" to retire to obscurity rather than continue to serve your country? I'd argue It's dishonorable, even, if you could serve and make a difference, but choose to do nothing. 

I think your view of honor is even more rigid than Barristans, and many fans accuse him of being too inflexible. 

Mind you, there was no concept of "serving your country" in the Medieval, only serving one's Lord, besides there would be many ways to make a differece without being a Kingsguard, he could choose do charity works, helping small folks, or he could join Night's watch defending the realm, the all I was saying it was not an honorable thing to serve someone who just killed the family he swore an oath to protect.

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Your username goes along well

i think Dany was a victim of lifetime abuse.  It's extremely common for abused persons to make excuses for their abusers

She had her eyes opened in the Dothraki fields and recognized Viserys for who he was, calling him weak and cruel and doesn't know anything about anything is hardly an excuse. 

Anyway I think it's more important that Barristan joining Viserys would go a long way in legitimizing his claim, which would in the long run destabilize the current regime and possibly lead to civil war. Think about when Oberyn raised banners for Viserys - if Barristan was with them, that might have even come to something.

Oberyn and Doran has 25-30k spears behind them, Barristan had none. Totally different scenario, at best he would've made sure they have roof above their heads and protect them from pickpocket. Him actually doing his oath wouldn't incite any rebellion

He matters a lot!  Look at how Tywin reacts to what Cersei and Joffery did.  Hey see how important Barristan is as a symbol of legitimacy.  Stannis or Renlys claim would have been helped greatly by Barristan at his side. 

For image only, but nothing to do with realm stabilization

 

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Also, many KG acted on their own through history. Maelor was killed by his own guard.

That one is in no way confirmed. Unlike Cregan Stark, Jaehaerys and Alyssa made no scapegoats for regicide of Maegor the Cruel. Might have been Kingsguard, might have been an intruder.

What IS confirmed is that two Kingsguard deserted Maegor when Jaehaerys rebelled.

Did any Kingsguard side with Aegon against Maegor?

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Also, many KG acted on their own through history. Maelor was killed by his own guard.

Maelor the baby boy of Aegon 2 ? He was torn at bitterbridge not killed by KG

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     Remember that nobody but Jaime knew about the wildfire.

Regardless of why Jaime killed Aerys(it wasn't as if there wasn't a case to be had against he who gets sexually aroused at burning people alive), Jaime acted on his convictions when he turned his cloak. Barristan just turned cloak to stay on the winning side.

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Regardless of why Jaime killed Aerys(it wasn't as if there wasn't a case to be had against he who gets sexually aroused at burning people alive), Jaime acted on his convictions when he turned his cloak. Barristan just turned cloak to stay on the winning side.

Um, how "regardless"?

Red Keep was under attack. It was obviously falling. Jaime killed Aerys. So he was fighting on the winning side.

There is the little side that it was Lannisters who were attacking. Jaime did not have to personally kill Aerys to be on their side - he could have just deserted and he'd still have been a Lannister. Still, he was fighting for his family, against his king.

But the difference is, Jaime actually fought for his new cloak. Barristan turned his cloak after the big fight was over - he was not yet there when Robert approved the killing of dragonspawn, he was a prisoner in bandages.

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Arthur Dayne , Gerold Hightower , and Oswell  Whent  should have been on the Trident  with there prince not chilling in Dorne , and Barry Selmy or BS artist IMO he became enamored with his position to the point that is all he knew . He easily could have joined the Night's Watch , but the Watch is full of rapist and murderers .

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Why didn't he leave Robert. He swore a oath/vow given from what we seen from him he stands by what he swears by

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Your username goes along well

She had her eyes opened in the Dothraki fields and recognized Viserys for who he was, calling him weak and cruel and doesn't know anything about anything is hardly an excuse. 

Of course Viserys was kind to her at times - like all abusers.  She knows Vuserys is a weak, cruel, abusive jerk and she was free to finally voice that when she was no longer under his control. She also knows he was kind when he wanted to be, and that she loved him. That's the cycle of abuse right there. 

Oberyn and Doran has 25-30k spears behind them, Barristan had none. Totally different scenario, at best he would've made sure they have roof above their heads and protect them from pickpocket. Him actually doing his oath wouldn't incite any rebellion

Barristan at their side would bring many swords when they get to Westeros. People join a cause because they believe in it.  Apparent Legitimacy (optics) is a big reason why people would (and in fact will) support a Targaryen restoration.  Barristan brings that legitimacy to anyone he is backing.

For image only, but nothing to do with realm stabilization

if you don't think "image" matters to the stability of a regime I direct you to the current situation in kings landing, Stannis' failure to get the backing of pretty much anyone, and most of all to Aerys.

The current regime will fall primarily because people absolutely loathe Cersei and think her kids are bastards, and without Tywin there to scare them into submission, the people have begun to rise up. 

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Mind you, there was no concept of "serving your country" in the Medieval, only serving one's Lord, besides there would be many ways to make a differece without being a Kingsguard, he could choose do charity works, helping small folks, or he could join Night's watch defending the realm, the all I was saying it was not an honorable thing to serve someone who just killed the family he swore an oath to protect.

it's quite clear from Barristans thoughts that you are wrong that there was "no concept" of serving ones country.  Barristan dreams of returning to Westeros - to his home.  Whatever the official oaths of fealty are, Barristan quite clearly is loyal to his homeland.  Of course, because he believes in Daenerys as Queen of Westeros and has sworn an oath, he will follow her...  But he obviously wishes he could serve her in Kings Landing instead of Mereen.  That's where his heart is.  

also people in the books talk about serving "the realm" all the time, the reality of medeavil Europe is immaterial (and I also suspect the official story and what people actually believed is quite different).  People always have different motives for fighting, whether it is for one person, or their family, or their home villaige, or a king or money or glory. 

From what we know of Barristan he did what he thought was right for Westeros and her people.  He now sees with hindsight some of his decisions were wrong.  

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