Heresy 181

[Black Crow]

Merry Christmas and welcome to Heresy 181, the latest edition of the thread where we take an in-depth look at the story and in particular what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones, but the threat which lies the North, in the magical otherlands above the Wall.

 

Heresy is not of itself a theory. There is occasional consensus but no “Heretic view” on matters. Instead Heresy is a free-flowing and above all a very friendly series of open discussions and arguments about the Song of Ice and Ice and Fire.

 

If new to the thread, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the many ideas we’ve discussed here over the years. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask. You will neither be patronized nor directed to follow links, but will be engaged directly. Just be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

 

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects diversity and open-ness. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion.

 

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic. The Centennial Project essays in the run-up to Heresy 100 are particularly recommended, but be  warned however that Heresy is constantly moving and evolving and that what was once regarded as important may now be exploded. Live in the moment and the current thread.

 

Beyond that, read on…

 

[Black Crow]

And now as usual the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993  letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

 

October 1993

 

Dear Ralph,

 

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

 

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

 

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

 

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

 

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

 

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

 

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

 

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

 

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

 

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

 

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

 

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

 

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

 

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

 

[7 Lines Redacted]

 

But that's the second book...

 

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

 

All best,

George R.R. Martin

 

 

 

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

 

 

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Black Crow]

As some of you will recall, in the run-up to Heresy 100 we ran a series of special editions, each headed by a guest essay on various topics of particular interest to we miserable heretics, such as Winterfell, the Wall, Magic and so on and so forth. If there is sufficient interest it might be worth re-running the exercise, with the same or updated essays and even new topics. The target would be to start off with Heresy 191 - unless of course we are overtaken by events in the meantime.

If you might be interested in writing or re-writing an essay, please drop me a PM.

 

[wolfmaid7]

As some of you will recall, in the run-up to Heresy 100 we ran a series of special editions, each headed by a guest essay on various topics of particular interest to we miserable heretics, such as Winterfell, the Wall, Magic and so on and so forth. If there is sufficient interest it might be worth re-running the exercise, with the same or updated essays and even new topics. The target would be to start off with Heresy 191 - unless of course we are overtaken by events in the meantime.

If you might be interested in writing or re-writing an essay, please drop me a PM.

 

Wohooo!!

[Black Crow]

Returning to the conversation... and my reservations as to whether Jon represents a union of Ice and Fire that will balance the two [and how this will actually be achieved] and if so whether this will be a good, or a bad thing, I'd suggest that the Reeds oath suggests otherwise 

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together

While they both finish together, swearing by ice and fire it remains an opposed duality. The land is one because each balances the other.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

 

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together

While they both finish together, swearing by ice and fire it remains an opposed duality. The land is one because each balances the other.

 

 

She was faking it and any time you think youre finishing together she's probably faking it.

[Black Crow]

Har!

[wolfmaid7]

Returning to the conversation... and my reservations as to whether Jon represents a union of Ice and Fire that will balance the two [and how this will actually be achieved] and if so whether this will be a good, or a bad thing, I'd suggest that the Reeds oath suggests otherwise 

“I swear it by earth and water,” said the boy in green.

 

“I swear it by bronze and iron,” his sister said.

 

“We swear it by ice and fire,” they finished together

While they both finish together, swearing by ice and fire it remains an opposed duality. The land is one because each balances the other.

 

 

It can be either or, opposed duality can work in one being as well as physically separate people.It may even be both especially when you are dealing with characters that have a similar theme to them.Whether its one,two or more than two one things is certain the war is natural.The push and pull of these forces against each other are as natural as breathing.

She was faking it and any time you think youre finishing together she's probably faking it.

Ohohoho i see what you did there.

[MaesterSam]

I agree. I think there's a practical problem in separating the Three-eyed Crow from Bloodraven, or rather in identifying the Crow as Euron in that whatever he might be up to the fact of the matter is that Bran has been summoned and convoyed north to the Cave of Skulls and Bloodraven, while Euron so far as we know is on the high seas.

Its possible of course that its his dead minions who are "besieging" the cave, but I still think that the Heart of Darkness parallel is stronger here and that they are Bloodraven's.

This isn't to say that Euron doesn't have a connection; since both the text and the Marvel stuff suggest it might be there, but if it does exist I'd be inclined to see it more in the nature of Mel's relationship with Benero and the Red Temple rather than outright opposition.

According to The Marvel Thesis, they are his. There is an exact scene, apparently, where Euron's Marvel character (Mordo) sends a blizzard and skeletons to prevent the Bran character from leaving his new mentor's cave. Just sayin'....

As for Euron's loyalties... going by the comics, he follows a god that is astonishingly similar to R'hllor. In the books, he says he went to Valyria (pretty fiery) and Asshai by the Shadow (like R'hllor, the god of fire and shadow). He also has the dragon horn that burns the men who sound it. I predict he is on the Fire God bandwagon. 

Its a possibility, certainly, and one which I think is more likely than the popular interpretation of Jon saving the day through being the union of Ice and Fire. As I said above such a union far from balancing Ice and Fire and thus by some mysterious process bringing peace and harmony to the world would be extremely dangerous because it would remove all checks and balances.

There is a problem of course with this interpretation in that if Jon is the union then he is already that dangerous union. Is it his birth which has set in train the approaching threats of Ice and Fire, or does it require the catalyst of his death?

I can see either working, but there's really no hint of such an outcome in the original synopsis - and while as we've discussed it can't be entirely relied upon, what we do have in there is not merely a vacuum or absence of major spoilers but a consistent stress on opposed duality with those desperate journeys to the respective hearts of Ice and Fire.

 

Oh WOW. Nice! How has this question not been asked before? I suspect it was his birth, as there were rangers disappearing and Others attacking the Fist well before his death. But who knows what additional events will now be set in motion?

While I suspect R+L=J may end up being true, I have always had a hard time imagining Ned making the dying Lyanna beg him to take care of her kid. That would be pretty crappy of him. So the promise was something else- something dark, something that Ned really did not want to promise, thus Lynna had to beg. Whatever it was, I doubt it involved taking the baby to Winterfell for safe keeping... maybe she told him to throw it in a well, or have it raised by peasants across the narrow sea, or sacrifice it to a weirwood...? All preferable to the harp in the crypts scenario.

[Lady Dyanna]

Speaking of the Snow-fall, has anyone brought up in the heresy how many parallels Jon Snow has with Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader)? Since the Force Awakens came out, might as well rehash it, even if it's been mentioned:

They're both characters whose personality is very much directly influenced by their relationship with their mother (or lack thereof). They both leave their lives behind to be inducted in an esoteric, semi-monastic order (The Watch/Jedi) who some believe are out-dated that they quickly rise to prominence in, in spite of the concerns of most senior leadership. They both have a forbidden romance that betrays ideals of their order (Padme/Ygritte). Both are given unusual attention by mysterious figures with dark powers (Emperor, Mel). They suffer betrayals (either actual or perceived) at the hands of those they call their brothers and slain by them. And, like Obiwan believed in Anakin, there are those who believe that Jon Snow will bring balance (R+L=J Fanboy/girl). Postulating forward (theoretical from here forward), they are both consumed by fire, only to be resurrected by their mysterious benefactor. Lastly, at one point or another, they are caught up in a conflict between a ruling organization and a rag-tag group of people obsessed with freedom and independence. 

As if all that weren't enough, Jon Snow dreams that he is a knight with shiny black armor and a red, fiery sword in his hand. It can't get more overt than that, I don't think. 

This makes so much sense. The parallels are quite obvious if you care to look. I need to continue to delve deeper into this. It also reminds me of the old Alfie Allen interview about Jon's parentage. Makes me wonder if Allen misunderstood. There's an awful lot of clues that point to Lyanna as Jon's mom. Not quite as much evidence of his dad.  Do we have the equivalent of midichlorians in ASOIAF?

[Black Crow]

It can be either or, opposed duality can work in one being as well as physically separate people.It may even be both especially when you are dealing with characters that have a similar theme to them.Whether its one,two or more than two one things is certain the war is natural.The push and pull of these forces against each other are as natural as breathing.

It can, but in either event the conflict will remain. I can certainly see Jon's dream as reflecting an inward conflict between ice and fire, but its unquestionably a conflict and ultimately a destructive one rather than a "restoration" of balance.

On the whole therefore I remain inclined to expect the conflict [and the eventual balance] to be brought about by two separate characters rather than one conflicted individual - why else do we have Danaerys the Dragonlord?

[Black Crow]

According to The Marvel Thesis, they are his. There is an exact scene, apparently, where Euron's Marvel character (Mordo) sends a blizzard and skeletons to prevent the Bran character from leaving his new mentor's cave. Just sayin'....

As for Euron's loyalties... going by the comics, he follows a god that is astonishingly similar to R'hllor. In the books, he says he went to Valyria (pretty fiery) and Asshai by the Shadow (like R'hllor, the god of fire and shadow). He also has the dragon horn that burns the men who sound it. I predict he is on the Fire God bandwagon. 

I'm not inclined to disagree that Euron tends to Fire rather than Ice, although mention of R'hllor might mischievously draw a blank stare and "who?". Conversely, while noting the Marvel parallel I'm still inclined to stick with Conrad. Those wights belong to Ice rather than Fire.

[Black Crow]

This makes so much sense. The parallels are quite obvious if you care to look. I need to continue to delve deeper into this. It also reminds me of the old Alfie Allen interview about Jon's parentage. Makes me wonder if Allen misunderstood. There's an awful lot of clues that point to Lyanna as Jon's mom. Not quite as much evidence of his dad.  Do we have the equivalent of midichlorians in ASOIAF?

The Star Wars parallel is certainly present, but much as I enjoy the films they do lack shall we say a degree of intellectual rigour or rather originality and I'd be more inclined to look for a common root rather than see Star Wars as the source - which isn't to say that Alfie Allen needed to have things explained to him slowly and carefully in those terms:

AA: "still don't get it, so you're saying..."

GRRM: [sigh] "OK, think of it in terms of Star Wars."

AA: "Ah getcha... Valyrian steel swords are like light sabers and the Kings Guard guys are like Imperial storm-troopers!"

GRRM: [deeper sigh] "Yeah... but..."

[Melifeather]

It can, but in either event the conflict will remain. I can certainly see Jon's dream as reflecting an inward conflict between ice and fire, but its unquestionably a conflict and ultimately a destructive one rather than a "restoration" of balance.

On the whole therefore I remain inclined to expect the conflict [and the eventual balance] to be brought about by two separate characters rather than one conflicted individual - why else do we have Danaerys the Dragonlord?

I agree that Jon and Daenerys are two characters meant to balance each other out, but I think I may be seeing something a bit different, so correct me if I am wrong, but I see Jon as frozen fire meant to oppose and fight the ice magic threat. Since the current threat is the white walkers and wights, his role seems more defined than Dany's, but I expect her to play the opposite role. She should be the tempered fire meant to oppose and fight fire magic should we see a fire threat emerge. If she happens to come to Westeros and helps defeat white walkers and wights, and then also assumes the Iron Throne, then balance will not be restored. I think this is another puzzle or knot that George has yet to work out, because Dany has to realize somehow that she should not come.

I do remember you saying, Black Crow, that  you felt Jon and Dany needed to sort out their respective ice and fire sides, but I don't think you had seen Jon as frozen fire and Dany as tempered fire. I'm still sorting Dany out, but this is what I am seeing so far.

[Black Crow]

I still don't see Jon as frozen fire, but otherwise I don't think we're too far apart.

One thing I would say is that a major plot element in the synopsis sees Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Dothraki horde conquering Westeros before the threat from up north fully materialises. That of course was before Meereen but I think her character will be pretty pointless if she doesn't, while at the same time there isn't the barest hint that she and her dragons will arrive in the verie nick of time.

[Melifeather]

I still don't see Jon as frozen fire, but otherwise I don't think we're too far apart.

One thing I would say is that a major plot element in the synopsis sees Danaerys the Dragonlord and her Dothraki horde conquering Westeros before the threat from up north fully materialises. That of course was before Meereen but I think her character will be pretty pointless if she doesn't, while at the same time there isn't the barest hint that she and her dragons will arrive in the verie nick of time.

I'm currently working on a theory where the genesis of my thoughts are playing off of the duality between Jon and Dany.

The Targaryen's practiced incest, and we learned in the World book that the Starks did too once. The tradition started somehow, and maybe they were meant to continue? Could this be the meaning behind "southron ambitions" in that Rickard was going to marry Lyanna outside of the family?

The queer thing in the mix are the Daynes. Why did they ever get a sword (Dawn) that is alive with the light of the moon/ice?  Jon seems destined to wield the dark and fiery sun/fire/sword. Is this his destiny because he's got the right genetic parents, or because he's a bastard, or because he is the product of incest? Could the first Dayne have been a Targaryen bastard?

I'm also looking at the phrase, "fire for blood, and blood for fire" and wondering if Jon's spilled blood was necessary for him to receive the fiery sword to wield against ice shadows? And if that phrase is a reference to a duality, then what does this mean for Dany? Will she have to "spill" fire in order to receive an icy sword to wield against fire shadows?

In the north we have the dead rising as wights. In the south we have the living trapped in stone. Is it Dany's destiny to save these people?

[Lady Dyanna]

The Star Wars parallel is certainly present, but much as I enjoy the films they do lack shall we say a degree of intellectual rigour or rather originality and I'd be more inclined to look for a common root rather than see Star Wars as the source - which isn't to say that Alfie Allen needed to have things explained to him slowly and carefully in those terms:

AA: "still don't get it, so you're saying..."

GRRM: [sigh] "OK, think of it in terms of Star Wars."

AA: "Ah getcha... Valyrian steel swords are like light sabers and the Kings Guard guys are like Imperial storm-troopers!"

GRRM: [deeper sigh] "Yeah... but..."

Although I certainly understand what you're saying, trying to figure out the inspiration behind Star Wars is similar to trying to determine the influences behind ASOIAF. They are many and varied and freakishly similar. The following quote was pulled from Wikipedia, source of all great knowledge. Link to read the whole page on influences. Funny enough, especially after Pretty Pig' recent essay, one of the biggest influences was the Flash Gordon Comic.

Star Wars, the space opera saga and cultural touchstone, is acknowledged to have been inspired by many sources. These include Hinduism, Qigong, Greek philosophy, Greek mythology, Roman history, Roman mythology, parts of the Abrahamic religions, Confucianism, Shintō, and Taoism, and countless cinematic precursors. There is also speculation that Star Warsalso takes inspirations from pre-Roman Celtic folklore (King Arthur's legends are post-Roman, set around the third century AD.)^[1]

 

George Lucas has said that chivalry, knighthood, paladinism, and related institutions in feudal societies inspired some concepts in the Star Wars movies, most notably the Jedi Knights. The work of the mythologist Joseph Campbell, especially his book The Hero with a Thousand Faces, directly influenced Lucas, and is what drove him to create the 'modern myth' ofStar Wars. The natural flow of energy known as The Force is believed to have originated from the concept of prana, orqi/chi/ki, "the all-pervading vital energy of the universe".

[Black Crow]

Yeah, I think that something we need to acknowledge in looking at the various influences at work here is the degree to which its almost unconscious. GRRM was brought up to read and a lot of the references we see may simply have come out of his head, because it was already swirling about in there, rather than consciously deciding to use it as a plot-line.

An example here might be to contrast GRRM's description of Bran's first sight of Bloodraven with Marlow's description of Kurtz:

When Marlow and Bran arrive at the Inner Station and at the Cave respectively [both of which are extensively decorated with skulls] neither Kurtz nor Bloodraven are dead; they only look that way, as Marlow strikingly tells it: His covering had fallen off, and his body emerged from it pitiful and appalling as from a winding sheet. I could see the cage of his ribs all astir, the bones of his arm waving. It was as though an animated image of death carved out of old ivory had been shaking its hand with menaces…

Compare and contrast that with Bran’s description of Bloodraven at first meeting: “His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white… A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.”

They are different, but only in detail; Bran is looking at Kurtz, and Marlow at Bloodraven. Clearly GRRM was consciously replicating Conrad's text here.

On the other hand take Ygritte's assertion that the Wall is evil and made of blood: "I hate this Wall,” she said in a low angry voice. Can you feel how cold it is?”

 “It’s made of ice,” Jon pointed out.

“You know nothing, Jon Snow. This wall is made o’blood”

This very much echoes Janet Clouston's curse on the House of Shaws; "Blood built it, blood stopped the building of it, and blood will bring it down. Black will be its fall." Its just a single line but somehow without any shadow of plagiarism it sums up the Wall perfectly. Did GRRM adopt and adapt it consciously or unconsciously?

[Melifeather]

Black Crow, your quote above, "Blood built it, blood stopped the building of it, and blood will bring it down. Black will be its fall." would fit with the idea that blood is needed for ice magic, that blood built the icy Wall, and that Jon's black burning sword will defeat the icy Others.

[Melifeather]

Lady Dyanna, does Pretty Pig have a Star Wars analogy thread? Or were you talking about her Marvel-ous thread?