You're GRRM's editor. He gives you his manuscript of A Feast for Crows. There's a red pen in your hand.

[Lautrec]

I'm not praising GRRM. I don't think he's a god. I think he's an accredited best selling author, one of many. What I'm saying is that he's better than all of us amateurs. When one amongst us produces a better literary work than he has, then they have all the leg they need to stand on to shit on his work, but not until.

So do you think that until you can produce a top notch meal your tongue is worthless at tasting food? Only a musical prodigy can say that Barbie Girl is not a great work of music? Conversely, how can you say that Feast is a good book unless you've produced a better literary work? It seems you believe that in order to have proper perspective to criticize something, you must first make something better. That is absurd thinking. Roger Ebert never made a great film, but I'd say his opinions on them are worth hearing, especially when he shits on a film.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

First Plan 9 and now Barbie Girl... you don't appreciate real art!!!

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

So do you think that until you can produce a top notch meal your tongue is worthless at tasting food? Only a musical prodigy can say that Barbie Girl is not a great work of music? Conversely, how can you say that Feast is a good book unless you've produced a better literary work? It seems you believe that in order to have proper perspective to criticize something, you must first make something better. That is absurd thinking. Roger Ebert never made a great film, but I'd say his opinions on them are worth hearing, especially when he shits on a film.

Yes. I think that if you give a step by step manual on how you would improve a top chef's meal, then you yourself should have a fair amount of cooking experience and be able to back that up by producing an excellent meal of your own.

 

But, if you can't, how much credence does your assessment deserve?

[Lautrec]

First Plan 9 and now Barbie Girl... you don't appreciate real art!!!

Hey, I was just trying to think of a hated song  

Yes. I think that if you give a step by step manual on how you would improve a top chef's meal, then you yourself should have a fair amount of cooking experience and be able to back that up by producing an excellent meal of your own.

 

But, if you can't, how much credence does your assessment deserve?

Well, I foresee this going in circles so we might as well stop. Of course, most criticism (like most of everything) is probably not very insightful or helpful, or even worthy. But I disagree with thinking that some sort of experience requirement is needed to properly critique.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

I concur and humbly digress. Tis exhaustive. 

[The scourge of westeros]

Now you guys see why the post count is so high around here for some

[kimim]

Yes. I think that if you give a step by step manual on how you would improve a top chef's meal, then you yourself should have a fair amount of cooking experience and be able to back that up by producing an excellent meal of your own.

 

But, if you can't, how much credence does your assessment deserve?

That's not really true, though, is it? You're given food by a great chef that's too salty (for you). Of course you can complain afterward and say that you would have done it differently. Or say you're Thai, and eat Thai food cooked by a famed Japanese chef. You're no cook, but you've eaten Thai food all your life, and you know the chef's version is off. You have every right to complain.

 

 

[FuzzyJAM]

That's not really true, though, is it? You're given food by a great chef that's too salty (for you). Of course you can complain afterward and say that you would have done it differently. Or say you're Thai, and eat Thai food cooked by a famed Japanese chef. You're no cook, but you've eaten Thai food all your life, and you know the chef's version is off. You have every right to complain.

It rather depends on what exactly you mean by the word "complain".  I'd say you have a right to say it's not to your taste but not to complain unless the chef is employed to follow your particular instructions and failed to execute them or describes his cuisine as "authentic Thai" and actually uses Japanese spicing or whatever.  That's not the relationship between George and anyone posting here though, so there's no right to complain about his books.    

I'm emphasising a nuance between criticism and complaint but perhaps you're using them as synonyms so we may not disagree at all.

[Ghost of Harrenhal.]

I would add a Robert Strong POV

[The scourge of westeros]

I would add a Robert Strong POV

this dude FOR THE WIN!!!

[The Marquis de Leech]

Honestly, what part of "books are meant to be read, not written" don't people understand?

The reader is the sole judge of the quality of the text, plain and simple. It matters not at all whether the reader is a published author (or an historian or an aeroplane pilot) or not. Besides, editing (which is what this thread is about) is a very different skill from creative writing, which is why, you know, Martin himself has a designated editor, and doesn't simply publish his final manuscript himself. 

[Beautiful Balon]

You people of the Cult of George have drained all of my motivation just because you can't conceive the idea of someone not thinking Feast is the Last Great American Novel.

 

But I genuinely want to read your opinion. like not sarcastically. I think your an insightful poster.

[Beautiful Bloody Sword]

I really wish I had not offered my personal opinion on a pet peeve of mine. Obviously, what bothers me is not an irritant to the majority of responders to this topic. I can live with that. I call uncle. I throw in the towel.

[Good Guy Garlan]

If this thread proved useful for anything, it was to make me consider using the ignore function for the first time. I mean, if the other side's angle is to hush any discussion they don't like and impose blatant censorship, I might as well do the same. Fire with fire, etc. Otherwise I'll end up like Tom Cruise in The Edge of Tomorrow, just reliving the same tiresome shit over and over.

So anyway, for the two or three people who don't sacrifice goats at the altar of the Bearded God, I'd actually like to see your opinion on something that's been on my mind for a while (I planned to open a separate thread for it, but the board might explode with 2 threads with people giving their opinions, god forbid such heresy). 

IN MY OPINION, most of the storylines or arcs in Feast and Dance lack a proper resolution and are basically cliffhangers galore, so that the books, TO ME, have no ending and are therefore incomplete, in a way. THE WAY I SEE IT, only Cersei's storyline felt like it had some sort of pathos in the way it ended, with Cersei's "oh, yes" in the arms of Robert Strong, signalling at the same time the beginning of a new character arc for her and an ending of her previous one, marked by an event as significant as it was the Walk of Shame. However, I THINK most if not all the rest of the POVs finish their storylines in mid act, with a set up for future books but very little in the way of closure. 

This is why I BELIEVE just combining Feast and Dance wouldn't be enough to make a proper novel, you also need the resolutions to all the storylines that I assume (and hope) will happen during the early part of Winds. 

Do you guys feel a similar way about it? Are there some storylines/character arcs in Feast and Dance you consider "incomplete" or something like it? The way I interpret it is that you need both a change in character, as in "character development" (hence the character arc thing) and a complete plotline (hence the storyline name). I'd say most POVs have some sort of character development by the end of Dance/Feast, but the lack of an ending and the abrupt cut of their storylines render the whole thing incomplete.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I like AFFC, it is one of the best written books. Nice pacing, lots of intrigues, building political threats...

ADWD on the other hand… I would rewrite some of Jon's, Dany's and Tyrion's chapters in order to reduce them in numbers. It is possible to get 2-3 chapters for each of them simply because some chapters are full yet empty, easy to reduce and condensate.

[Beautiful Balon]

(disclaimer I am drunk posting pretty hard. Keep that in mind)

If I was editing Feast I think my focus would be on Dorne. There were a bunch of unenjoyably POVS that and characters that distract from the interesting ones (Doran and Arianne). So no Darkstar(he didn't have enough space to be fleshed out) Less sandsnakes. No  Hotah and Arys as POV. I would probably take out some Brienne chapters but keep her general arc. (Travels around the riverlands searches for sansa and kills brave companions). Also less Samwell. Other than that I don't know.

 

I don't think the nre POV were the problem provided they were interesting and did not crowd out other  Pov. So one or two chapters of Aeron, Mel and Vic were not a problem.

[FuzzyJAM]

Wasn't the initial intention to write the fourth novel including parts of what is now WoW?  So really, the book George wanted to write is essentially Feast plus Dance plus some of WoW.  As far as I'm aware, publishing these separately was a practical decision largely based on publishing issues.  I definitely think they make the individual books worse than they could have been.  But combined AFFC/ADWD reads work very well I find, and I hope that they'll work even better when we have WoW to follow up - both books definitely do suffer from too many cliffhangers.  Basically, I think AFFC and ADWD are notably weaker than the rest of the series when taken as individual books.  But I think it's likely that, when the series is complete, and assuming the readership know to combine AFFC/ADWD when reading, they'll make for a good part of the story.  

The material is mostly good, the books by themselves are relatively weak.  I don't really know how you sort that except by cutting out 1,000 or so pages of the books and stitching it together (not something I'd like) or not publishing anything after ASOS and waiting until 2015 or so when Martin could have released a 2,000+ page fourth book in three volumes.  Other than that, a total rewrite is all I can think of.  Editing could only do so much, really - and I think sorting some of the problems of AFFC/ADWD as individual books could very possibly make them worse as part of the completed series.  

[The Marquis de Leech]

So anyway, for the two or three people who don't sacrifice goats at the altar of the Bearded God, I'd actually like to see your opinion on something that's been on my mind for a while (I planned to open a separate thread for it, but the board might explode with 2 threads with people giving their opinions, god forbid such heresy). 

I think ADWD needed to do several things:

- Get Tyrion to Daenerys.

- Get Daenerys out of Meereen (bonus points if she lands in Westeros).

- Resolve the Battle of Ice.

Two out of three would have been perfectly acceptable, whereas one out of three would have been treading water. As it is, there was indeed no resolution - a zero out of three. We've had endless pages in the last couple of books devoted to the Fat Pink Mast and Quenyn's misadventures, a pointless Jaime chapter, and the spectacular destruction of Cersei as a believable character. In AGOT, Catelyn could be in Winterfell in one chapter, and in King's Landing the next. Compare that with Tyrion drifting down the river.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So anyway, for the two or three people who don't sacrifice goats at the altar of the Bearded God.

Please, let me out of this, thanks.

[BrettG]

 

IN MY OPINION, most of the storylines or arcs in Feast and Dance lack a proper resolution...

This is why I BELIEVE just combining Feast and Dance wouldn't be enough to make a proper novel, you also need the resolutions to all the storylines that I assume (and hope) will happen during the early part of Winds. 

Do you guys feel a similar way about it? Are there some storylines/character arcs in Feast and Dance you consider "incomplete" or something like it? The way I interpret it is that you need both a change in character, as in "character development" (hence the character arc thing) and a complete plotline (hence the storyline name). I'd say most POVs have some sort of character development by the end of Dance/Feast, but the lack of an ending and the abrupt cut of their storylines render the whole thing incomplete.

I feel the exact same way.  I touched on this a little bit in my earlier post, but yes, the individual storylines themselves lack either a complete character arc, a finished plotline (less important), or both.  So simply combining them still doesn't actually deal with the larger problem.  Broken down on a scale of complete/incomplete I'd say:

Complete character arc and storyline:  Dany (see below), Jon (see below), Theon, Quentyn

Complete character arc, incomplete/pointless plot: Jaime, Cersei (see below), Arys Oakheart, Arianne

Incomplete/nonexistent character arc, complete plot: Sam

Incomplete/nonexistent character arc, incomplete plot: Bran, Arya, Tyrion, Sansa, Davos, all the other Greyjoys, Hotah, Brienne, Connington and Aegon, Stannis and Mel, the Boltons, Barristan and everyone else in Meereen

--Dany really only qualifies as a completed storyline because of her abrupt exit from Meereen; everything that happened during her storyline is obviously unresolved, but she's on a new path now so I'm willing to call her part of the Meereen story finished

--Jon is questionable as a complete storyline, in that there's obviously no resolution at the Wall, but the stabbing cliffhanger is the natural ending point of his plotline for that book; unlike the cliffhangers that dominate all the other storylines, which feel unnatural and exist simply because the book hit its page limit, Jon's cliffhanger is very natural and I'm sure would have remained the same even if George had another 200 pages to work with

--The only reason I count Cersei as an unfinished storyline is because of how much page time was spent talking about the trials she and Margaery will face; there's so much set up for them that the fact that we don't actually get there feels incomplete.  If this material had been moved to Winds, I'd call it a complete plotline

So yeah, looking at it like that it becomes even more obvious.  Only four characters have both a complete character arc and a storyline that advances the overall plot.  Two of those four are WAY too long, however, and one of the others is typically regarded as a waste of space.  Meanwhile, the vast majority of the POVs/plotlines contain no actual character arc, and don't come to any kind of resolution.