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Selyse was not a slight to Stannis


Beautiful Balon

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It is common opinion that Selyse was married to Stannis as an insult. I do not think this is the case.

 

To start, Selyse's family had a claim to the reach and this marriage would bolster ties between the crown and the Florents to discourage the Tyrell's from rebelling. However I think there's more. Stannis bitches constantly about about how he deserves the stormlands, and the crown can award revoked titles rather arbitrarily. So what if the plan of Robert/Jon arryn was that if the Tyrell's rebelled then they would be defeated, their titles would be taken and given to Stannis and the Florent marriage would legitimize his control over the reach.

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Stannis was certainly slighted by Robert as a brother. He was unappreciative of Stannis, didn't like him or trust him despite Stannis being one of his most valuable and loyal allies, and while he did need Stannis on Dragonstone, he still seemed to have wished to insult his brother by denying him lordship of Storm's End despite his being the man who defended it nearly to the bitter end.

But I wouldn't call Stannis' marriage to Selyse a slight. Selyse was a valuable catch for a second son, Baratheon or no. And besides, Robert clearly wanted to stick it to the Tyrells by elevating their most bitter rivals to being his in-laws. It was meant to slight the Tyrells, not Stannis.

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It is common opinion that Selyse was married to Stannis as an insult. I do not think this is the case.

 

To start, Selyse's family had a claim to the reach and this marriage would bolster ties between the crown and the Florents to discourage the Tyrell's from rebelling. However I think there's more. Stannis bitches constantly about about how he deserves the stormlands, and the crown can award revoked titles rather arbitrarily. So what if the plan of Robert/Jon arryn was that if the Tyrell's rebelled then they would be defeated, their titles would be taken and given to Stannis and the Florent marriage would legitimize his control over the reach.

This is an old hypothesis. In short, the Florents have as much claim to the Reach as the Karstarks have for Winterfell - not more than any other great house in the region. Selyse isn't from the main line of the Florents, she is niece to the current lord. The Florents are also not a powerfull Reach house, with them standing above others in that they have a marriage to Stannis, not the other way around. There are several houses that are more powerfull and are more realistic in having a chance to replace the Tyrells than a house that can gather, at best, around 2,000 swords. Jon Arryn's time as Hand shows that if anything, he supports Robert's line of keeping people in thier place even after rebellion. The only people to suffer considerably (and even then only diminishing thier lands, not taking them away) after Robert took the throne were those like Connington and Darry, who rose up against thier liege lords but did not return to the fold during the war like Fell, Cafferen and Grandison. The Greyjoys had to give up a hostage, but kept everything even after making enemies of the entire realm. This points to Robert not caring so much for uprooting lords that he would actually plan something in advance for years. This is a completely different character than the one we read about in the books. Not to that we need to add what we know of Robert's general dealings with Stannis. When the question of Warden of the East comes up, Stannis is ignored by Robert, and the title goes to Cersei's brother just to shut her up. This fits with the Robert that couldn't care less with how he gives away titles, it does not with the cool and calculated Robert that people insist gave 5 minutes of thought to the possible future marriage alliance with the new overlords of the Reach. Robert did not even send a letter asking Stannis' opinion regarding a possible future naval invasion. He could not care less, and if he is actually the one who made the match it is more likely that it was because she was the ugliest one of the lot. There were better options at the time, and Robert show no signs that he meant this as a threat against the Tyrells at any point. If anything having Loras squire in Storm's End is very much something that Robert would have done, though we never hear it was a term at the end of RR.

Robert never thought things that far ahead, and if he did once in a while it would not be something that would give Stannis the entire freaking Reach.

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Not to that we need to add what we know of Robert's general dealings with Stannis. When the question of Warden of the East comes up, Stannis is ignored by Robert, and the title goes to Cersei's brother just to shut her up.

Very reckless from Robert, Stannis commanded navy, was a proven commander and he suposedely got Dragonstone because he is heir AND because Robert is afraid of invasion from Essos. If you are afraid of invasion, you would very likely give the East to loyal, proven commander.

With that Baratheon brothers secure entire shore plus you can add Ned and North but I dont think its likely for Viserys to land in the North.

And to say something about actual topic, I think that this wasnt a slight, of course he could do better but her family isnt so bad. Although, bedding in Stanis' bed was a slight and I think that Dragonstone was a slight after all. Robert was mad for not killing Targs and if his story was true abiut why he gave it to Stannis, he would have named him Warden of East.

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This is an old hypothesis. In short, the Florents have as much claim to the Reach as the Karstarks have for Winterfell - not more than any other great house in the region.

That does not seem to be true, at least according to the source material, from both Olenna

‘If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining.

and the World book

Afterward, a number of the other great houses of the Reach complained bitterly about being made vassals of an "upjumped steward" and insisted that their own blood was far nobler than that of the Tyrells. It cannot be denied that the Oakhearts of Old Oak, the Florents of Brightwater Keep, the Rowans of Goldengrove, the Peakes of Starpike, and the Redwynes of the Arbor all had older and more distinguished lineages than the Tyrells, and closer blood ties to House Gardener as well.

It is pretty clear that they have a better claim on Highgarden than the Karstarks do on Winterfell.

 

Selyse isn't from the main line of the Florents, she is niece to the current lord.

We don't know who was Lord at the time of the marriage. Selyse is the 3rd senior Florent female. I'm not sure why it makes a difference her being a niece or her being a 3rd daughter.

The Florents are also not a powerfull Reach house, with them standing above others in that they have a marriage to Stannis, not the other way around.

Again, they seem to be pretty powerful.

Very tall, very courtly, and very rich, the Lord of Brightwater Keep had been the first of Renly's bannermen to declare for Stannis, and the first to renounce his old gods and take up the Lord of Light.

 

There are several houses that are more powerfull and are more realistic in having a chance to replace the Tyrells than a house that can gather, at best, around 2,000 swords.

Power is not just about how many men you can raise. And I am not sure there are several Houses. That seems to be an exaggeration. They are certainly less powerful than the Hightowers and Redwynes but we don't know enough to say that anyone else is.

 

  When the question of Warden of the East comes up, Stannis is ignored by Robert, and the title goes to Cersei's brother just to shut her up.

There is no actual evidence that it was done to shut her up.

It stands to reason that he would not have his Master of Ships, something that Stannis seems to be good at, as the commander of his armies in the East as Robert is most scared about an attack from Essos. That would requite both the Master of Ships and Warden of the East being involved. Stannis can not be expected to be both.

Had he been stripped of his Master of Ships title (an actual relevant position in peace time) for the Warden of the East (a meaningless title in peace time) no doubt he would have taken this for a slight.

 

This fits with the Robert that couldn't care less with how he gives away titles,

But quite clearly in this situation he does. He cares enough to strip his dead friends son of the title and ignore Ned's council. This exchange with Ned actually makes it look like he does care about the position:

"The Arryns have always been Wardens of the East. The title goes with the domain."

"Perhaps when he comes of age, the honor can be restored to him," Robert said. "I have this year to think of, and next. A six-year-old boy is no war leader, Ned."
 
as does this:

"Once you choose a new Warden of the East—"

The king groaned. "For the last time, I will not name the Arryn boy Warden. I know the boy is your nephew, but with Targaryens climbing in bed with Dothraki, I would be mad to rest one quarter of the realm on the shoulders of a sickly child."
 

 

There were better options at the time, 

Were there? Such as who?

Bear in mind such matches would also have to be willing to marry Stannis in 286 (or whenever the match was agreed)

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Did Stannis see the marriage itself as a slight? He certainly felt slighted by Robert's actions in the wedding bed and thought that put a blight on the marriage, although doing his duty only once a year might have had more to do with the lack of sons.

I wondered the same. He doesn't see anything wrong with the marriage, AFAIR. The fact he doesn't have sex often doesn't seem to be due to Selyse being unattractive but because Stannis is really not much into sex. (yes, people like that exist).

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I can't recall Stannis complaining and grinding teeth about his marriage. Certainly he raises his voice to her when he thinks she's being out of line (eg trying to influence him on his decisions,) but that's something directed at her, not a complain on the spouse that was chosen for him.

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^Aye. Putting aside their lack of sons, I'd say they are one of the better marriages:

- They are aware that there is no love between them, only duty and they make no illusions of such. Because of that, they are dutiful to each other, as much as they are supposed to be.

- They respect each other. Selyse supports Stannis and Stannis has no problem with Selyse having opinions and decisions (as long as she doesn't go and directly opposes him).

Seriously, they have a much better marriage than Cersei and Robert (although that's not really had).

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That's a good enough reason.(in Westeros)

Come on, most of the people are not that attractive. Beautiful ones are minority. 

I am sure many noble girls are just plain looking. some of them are even ugly. A normal distribution. 

and no, it is not a slight just because she is not pretty. 

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Come on, most of the people are not that attractive. Beautiful ones are minority. 

I am sure many noble girls are just plain looking. some of them are even ugly. A normal distribution. 

and no, it is not a slight just because she is not pretty. 

Honestly, when I read the title I thought the slight was precisely because she was not pretty.

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Honestly, when I read the title I thought the slight was precisely because she was not pretty.

I did not think like that. My first impression is that House Florent is not powerful for the ruling house. 

You know, stannis is technically a prince. he should get a daughter from a LP house. 

but there is no girl of his age available at that moment. Cersei, Lyanna, Cat, Lysa. And Margarey and Arianne are too young for him. 

Although I am wondering why he did not get a daughter from Hightower, but they are not significantly more powerful than Florent. 

If I were Robert, I may marry Stannis to a lord of Pentos or Tyrosh or Sea Lord, to strengthen the navy. 

 

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Did Stannis see the marriage itself as a slight? He certainly felt slighted by Robert's actions in the wedding bed and thought that put a blight on the marriage, although doing his duty only once a year might have had more to do with the lack of sons.

Yeah, can someone explain to me where the idea that anyone thought Selyse was a slight is coming from?  

She seems like a perfectly fine match and nobody complains about it.  

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