Selyse was not a slight to Stannis

[Lion of the West]

I really don't see how Selyse would have been a slight to Stannis and many, in fact most, royal personage from previous Targaryen House did not marry partners from the Great Houses when they married outside their family. Just look at the Targaryen family tree and you'll see plenty of marriages to Houses down the feudal pyramid. I mean, Viserys II was also the brother of a king and he married a banking family's daughter...they're not even nobility! So with the Florents, in term of the House's prestige and power, Stannis had an perfectly suitable match for his station. I will happily confess that I think that Stannis whines in regards to this, and I personally blame him a great deal for the faulty state of their relation and as well as think that he has a share in Selyse's special mindset.

[Nyrhex]

1. That does not seem to be true, at least according to the source material, from both Olenna

‘If truth be told, even our claim to Highgarden is a bit dodgy, just as those dreadful Florents are always whining.

and the World book

Afterward, a number of the other great houses of the Reach complained bitterly about being made vassals of an "upjumped steward" and insisted that their own blood was far nobler than that of the Tyrells. It cannot be denied that the Oakhearts of Old Oak, the Florents of Brightwater Keep, the Rowans of Goldengrove, the Peakes of Starpike, and the Redwynes of the Arbor all had older and more distinguished lineages than the Tyrells, and closer blood ties to House Gardener as well.

It is pretty clear that they have a better claim on Highgarden than the Karstarks do on Winterfell.

2. We don't know who was Lord at the time of the marriage. Selyse is the 3rd senior Florent female. I'm not sure why it makes a difference her being a niece or her being a 3rd daughter.

Again, they seem to be pretty powerful.

Very tall, very courtly, and very rich, the Lord of Brightwater Keep had been the first of Renly's bannermen to declare for Stannis, and the first to renounce his old gods and take up the Lord of Light.

Power is not just about how many men you can raise. And I am not sure there are several Houses. That seems to be an exaggeration. They are certainly less powerful than the Hightowers and Redwynes but we don't know enough to say that anyone else is.

3. There is no actual evidence that it was done to shut her up.

It stands to reason that he would not have his Master of Ships, something that Stannis seems to be good at, as the commander of his armies in the East as Robert is most scared about an attack from Essos. That would requite both the Master of Ships and Warden of the East being involved. Stannis can not be expected to be both.

Had he been stripped of his Master of Ships title (an actual relevant position in peace time) for the Warden of the East (a meaningless title in peace time) no doubt he would have taken this for a slight.

But quite clearly in this situation he does. He cares enough to strip his dead friends son of the title and ignore Ned's council. This exchange with Ned actually makes it look like he does care about the position:

"The Arryns have always been Wardens of the East. The title goes with the domain."

"Perhaps when he comes of age, the honor can be restored to him," Robert said. "I have this year to think of, and next. A six-year-old boy is no war leader, Ned."

 

as does this:

"Once you choose a new Warden of the East—"

The king groaned. "For the last time, I will not name the Arryn boy Warden. I know the boy is your nephew, but with Targaryens climbing in bed with Dothraki, I would be mad to rest one quarter of the realm on the shoulders of a sickly child."

 

4. Were there? Such as who?

Bear in mind such matches would also have to be willing to marry Stannis in 286 (or whenever the match was agreed)

1. Olenna bitching about the Florents is after GRRM had established them as a faction in Stannis' court. No one gave a damn about the Florents before that point, they were not a house that posed a threat to the Tyrells in any way, nor were they the only house that had a claim on the Reach. The fact that there are other better houses, and that Robert had always opted to keep rebels in thier old titles, suggests that there was no link between the Florent's drop of Gardener blood and the marriage to Stannis.

2. We know that there was another female, Delena, who was just as good as Selyse, but more comely. If Robert wanted an alliance with the Florents she would do just as good as Selyse. The difference between being married to a female of the main line and a female of a branch is the difference between being married to Cersei and being married to Genna or Janey Lannister. Down the line, down in importance, prestige, and strength of alliance usually. The Florents are a house in the most populated region that have fewer swords in total than the Karstarks brought to war. In an army at least 60,000 strong from the Reach, they are a minor fraction of the army and the other lords, and that is when Hightower and Redwyne and others are not even taking the field. And being called very rich by Davos is not something to be proud of. He looks up to third rate petty lords and thinks them huge and powerfull, and has been a household knight under another Florent for a long time.

3. Any Targ invasion would come from the sea. Making Stannis, master of ships and based at the best location to defend from Essos, also Warden of the East, after the guy had won him a war 9 years earlier by defeating the Ironbron at sea and storming their largest island on land, makes far more sense than making Jaime freaking Lannister Warden of West and East. Notice that GRRM still has not worked up what those titles actually mean in AGOT, and the scene says that Jaime can inherit while he is a Kingsguard, which is not true. Still, making Jaime Warden of the East while a KG is pointless. He either guards the king, or in war time Robert would send him with authority to lead any lord's army. There is no need for the position, it is beleived that Jaime would also hold the West, and it fits Stannis to a T. That Robert takes the time to gather the courage to admit that he had already gave the position to Jaime, and that we learn through Ned that the Lannisters keep trying to gather more titles, that Robert's first reasoning for trusting Jaime for the position is that he is his wife's twin, point to Robert doing Cersei's bidding more than thinking on the realm. A king who thinks about the realm would at the very least ask his master of ships, a veteran of naval combat, about a possible naval invasion. Stannis can't be Master of Ships and Warden of the East when facing a possible naval invasion and being based on Dragonstone, but Jaime Lannister can guard Robert and lead the armies of the West and East one day? Stripping Stannis of Master of Ships to make him Warden of the East in the face of a naval invasion would be a slap in the face. Giving Jaime a pointless title in peacetime is a slap in the face to Robert Arryn. Giving Jaime two Warden titles but not even considering a man who had already led men to war on land and at sea is Robert being an idiot who is making excuses for pleasing the Lannisters again. The fact that Robert is aware that one day this would lead to difficulty but trusts that Tywin looks eternal shows that the guy is not planning ahead, and this theory that he was going to replace the Tyrells with the Florents and Stannis is crackpot. 

4. You really can't be bothered to look up the wiki? 

Mylenda Caron. Born ~261, only married a Frey at ~291. Main line of the Carons. 

Barbrey Dustin. Young, and recently lost her husband. Rules over Barrowton.

Lynesse Hightower - Daughter to the strongest lord in the Reach. Only married Jorah after the Greyjoy rebellion. Half of Jorah's age during the tourney means she was around 16-17 when Stannis married Selyse and was himself ~25 years old.

There are countless more from the main line of noble houses who married at around that time, but have too little info to make certain. There should be plenty more than the above 3, each of whom is a better match than Selyse freaking Florent.

[Whitering]

Lynesse would have been a true disaster. Barbrey would be interesting, but basically, I don't know Mylenda, but other than perhaps being able to have sons (which may be Stannis' fault to be sure), Selyse is the best wife for him. He's not good with women, and she seems to have made her peace with that, over on some kind of crazy island.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1. Olenna bitching about the Florents is after GRRM had established them as a faction in Stannis' court.

And?

This is pretty much the first time Oleena speaks in the series. It does not change the facts that both she an the world book state that the Forents are a genuine threat to the Tyrells. Certainly more than the Karstarks were to the Satrks like you suggested.

2. We know that there was another female, Delena, who was just as good as Selyse, but more comely. If Robert wanted an alliance with the Florents she would do just as good as Selyse.

Wait, you initially said that Selyne was not good enough because because she was the daughter of the a second son (third senior female) but are now suggesting that the daughter of the 3rd son (fifth senior female) would be a better option?

I don't really see much difference between the two. Perhaps Lord Florent had the final say and he wanted Selyse married first or maybe there was a larger dowry for Selyse than there was her cousin.

 

. And being called very rich by Davos is not something to be proud of. He looks up to third rate petty lords and thinks them huge and powerfull, and has been a household knight under another Florent for a long time.

Yes, it is. Lord Florent is the only one of the many Lords under Stannis he thinks of as rich. It is clear he is making a distinction between the Cranes, Mullenores, Estermonts etc. and the rich Florents.

3. Any Targ invasion would come from the sea. Making Stannis, master of ships and based at the best location to defend from Essos, also Warden of the East, after the guy had won him a war 9

lol Stannis had won him a war? He certainly contributed, but he didnt win him the war.

 

4. You really can't be bothered to look up the wiki? 

Mylenda Caron. Born ~261, only married a Frey at ~291. Main line of the Carons. 

Were is it mentioned that she is from the main line? Certainly not from the wiki page.  And no, some Caron is not a superior match than a Florent.

You claimed there were many superior matches and this is the best you could do?

Barbrey Dustin. Young, and recently lost her husband. Rules over Barrowton.

Actually Dustin is a good call, but she seems to have been unwilling to marry. As I said, and you seemed to have ignored, the women (or their House) would have had to be willing to marry Stannis. Lady Dustin has remained unmarried through choice.

Lynesse Hightower - Daughter to the strongest lord in the Reach. Only married Jorah after the Greyjoy rebellion. Half of Jorah's age during the tourney means she was around 16-17 when Stannis married Selyse and was himself ~25 years old.

Would the Hightowers have been willing to marry their daughter to a Baratheon at that point? If they were then she certainly would have been a better option. But there is also the chance that the Hightowers (and other prominent rebels) would have been unwilling to marry the other side only two years after Robert became King.

 There should be plenty more than the above 3, each of whom is a better match than Selyse freaking Florent.

Wrong considering Caron is not a better match and Dustin was unwilling to marry.

[jarl the climber]

Stannis is dutiful, if Robert had told him to marry the family dog, he would have done it. Stannis could have refused and married someone of his own choice but that's not his style. I can recall Stannis saying that him getting Dragonstone and not Storms End was a slight, Cersei says that it was intended to be a slight but no one says about his marriage. What was a slight is that Robert bedded one of Selyses relatives in their marriage bed.

[SFDanny]

Do we even know when the marriage pact with the Florents was made? It makes a huge difference in figuring out the reason behind it if the pact is made before or after the rebellion. Is Stannis's betrothal part of the same alliances that we see in Robert's own to Lyanna? Or is it a marriage to cement Reach lords to Robert's rule after the rebellion?

[purple-eyes]

Do we even know when the marriage pact with the Florents was made? It makes a huge difference in figuring out the reason behind it if the pact is made before or after the rebellion. Is Stannis's betrothal part of the same alliances that we see in Robert's own to Lyanna? Or is it a marriage to cement Reach lords to Robert's rule after the rebellion?

true. Maybe he was betrothed to her before war. He was quite old during the war, like 20 something. Surely good for betroth. 

It was a proper match for second son of Steffon. 

For king's brother, I expect he will marry a hightower daughter or even a daughter of archon of tyrosh. 

[dariopatke]

Do we even know when the marriage pact with the Florents was made? It makes a huge difference in figuring out the reason behind it if the pact is made before or after the rebellion. Is Stannis's betrothal part of the same alliances that we see in Robert's own to Lyanna? Or is it a marriage to cement Reach lords to Robert's rule after the rebellion?

But if it was arranged before rebellion, why were Florents at Storms end torturing Stannis?

Also if this is true, I believe that it would be more than enough to break the deal so he can marry someone more suited to his position.

[SFDanny]

But if it was arranged before rebellion, why were Florents oat Storms end torturing Stannis?

Because the Lord of Brightwater chose his King and his High Lord over his future-in-law. Note that Hoster Tully is also part of the pre-rebellion marriage pacts, but he doesn't call his banners when Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Ned Stark do. He joins the rebellion only after he gets Arryn's agreement to marry Lysa. The Florents could just as easily have decided the pact between Stannis and Selyse wasn't enough for the risks involved in actual rebellion.

Not that this means the pact really dates from before the rebellion, just that we don't know when it happens.

[dariopatke]

Because the Lord of Brightwater chose his King and his High Lord over his future-in-law. Note that Hoster Tully is also part of the pre-rebellion marriage pacts, but he doesn't call his banners when Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and Ned Stark do. He joins the rebellion only after he gets Arryn's agreement to marry Lysa. The Florents could just as easily have decided the pact between Stannis and Selyse wasn't enough for the risks involved in actual rebellion.

Not that this means the pact really dates from before the rebellion, just that we don't know when it happens.

Tyrells sent some forces on Trident, Florents should have requested to go there. Hoster didnt raise his banner, but he didnt join loyalists, much less fight Stark/Arryn. I resoect their loyalty to king and liege lord, but they could have avoided confrontation with him, Robert or Ned are one thing but Stannis is whole another.

[SFDanny]

Tyrells sent some forces on Trident, Florents should have requested to go there. Hoster didnt raise his banner, but he didnt join loyalists, much less fight Stark/Arryn. I resoect their loyalty to king and liege lord, but they could have avoided confrontation with him, Robert or Ned are one thing but Stannis is whole another.

This is all pure speculation on our parts because we don't know when the pact is made, but I don't know if it is a question of respect for either Aerys or the Tyrells - in fact I doubt it - but rather a question of a cold calculation of the risk of being on one side or the other when the decision had to be made.

btw, to the OP's question, Selyse was no slight to Stannis whether or not the marriage pact is made before or after the rebellion starts. If before she fits the pattern of the Blackfish's betrothal in that it would be the second important house of the Reach included in the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliances. Clearly important for that alliance, whatever it's aims were. If it is after the war, then much like Robert's own marriage to Cersei, it helps cement a region's alliance to the new king's rule. This is power politics, not finding Stannis a wife to belittle him in some personal act of spite. There is no prospective Tyrell marriage partner for Stannis - Margaery is born the year the sack happens and is not a candidate to bring the Reach closer to the throne through marriage. Yet that is a vital goal for the new regime.

[dariopatke]

This is all pure speculation on our parts because we don't know when the pact is made, but I don't know if it is a question of respect for either Aerys or the Tyrells - in fact I doubt it - but rather a question of a cold calculation of the risk of being on one side or the other when the decision had to be made.

btw, to the OP's question, Selyse was no slight to Stannis whether or not the marriage pact is made before or after the rebellion starts. If before she fits the pattern of the Blackfish's betrothal in that it would be the second important house of the Reach included in the Stark-Tully-Arryn-Baratheon alliances. Clearly important for that alliance, whatever it's aims were. If it is after the war, then much like Robert's own marriage to Cersei, it helps cement a region's alliance to the new king's rule. This is power politics, not finding Stannis a wife to belittle him in some personal act of spite. There is no prospective Tyrell marriage partner for Stannis - Margaery is born the year the sack happens and is not a candidate to bring the Reach closer to the throne through marriage. Yet that is a vital goal for the new regime.

Could he do better? Well yes of course, but Stannis isnt a guy who lusts for beatiful bride, if he had married someone beauty as Cersei, he wouldnt be any closer to her and their marrige isnt a happy one but certanly better than Robert/Cersei, Tyrion/Sansa, Lysa/Jon and I wont even talk about Ramsay/poor Jeyne.

Southorn ambitions make very much sense and it wouldnt surprise me if he was bethroded before, he was 19 after all.

[SFDanny]

Could he do better? Well yes of course, but Stannis isnt a guy who lusts for beatiful bride, if he had married someone beauty as Cersei, he wouldnt be any closer to her and their marrige isnt a happy one but certanly better than Robert/Cersei, Tyrion/Sansa, Lysa/Jon and I wont even talk about Ramsay/poor Jeyne.

Southorn ambitions make very much sense and it wouldnt surprise me if he was bethroded before, he was 19 after all.

I agree very much to the bolded part.

The normal expectation would be for Stannis to wed a vassal lord's daughter. So, in this case a daughter of one of the bannermen of either Storm's End or Dragonstone. That he weds Selyse, the daughter of a large and powerful house in the Reach, shows the marriage to be anything but normal. It's either part of a highly unusual power play against the Targaryens, if made before the rebellion, or it's part of a unusual power play after the rebellion in order to secure Robert's throne. Take your pick, but it's unusual either way. Only Stannis could look at this and see a slight, but that's because he sees them everywhere.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Re: Lynnesse - she would not have been 16 or even of age at the time Stannis was to marry.  

Jorah says he was twice her age when they met, and that he is thrice Danys age (14) when he confesses his love to her.  That means in Storm Jorah was about 42. Lynesse and Jorah met in the tourney celebrating Greyjoy rebellion which was about 10 years before (289), so Jorah was about 32 and Lynesse about 16. That means at the time Stannis married Selyse, just after the war (284?), Lynesse would have been at most about 11 years old.. Just a child And not in the running.  

Of course Robert could have allowed Stannis to remain single, and maybe marry Lynesse later, which might have been a good idea.  Renly being unattached gave him a great deal of power in attracting allies when the time came.  Stannis' hand could have been used in a similar strategic way by Robert and Jon Arryn.  Maybe he could have married Stannis to Asha after Greyjoys Rebellion! 

[Batbob45]

It is an slight because Selyse  has an insufferable personality, she has very little empathy for other people that are lower than lords and ladies(at least Stannis is willing to make lords  out of people based on merit).She doesn't really spend time with her kid(it is sad when an insane fool and a giant are  better influence on your kid than you are). Like the meaning of her name, she is to blinded by the red faith to question any of it.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

It is an slight because Selyse  has an insufferable personality, she has very little empathy for other people that are lower than lords and ladies(at least Stannis is willing to make lords  out of people based on merit).She doesn't really spend time with her kid(it is sad when an insane fool and a giant are  better influence on your kid than you are). Like the meaning of her name, she is to blinded by the red faith to question any of it.

Selyse turning out to be a shitty person is not a "slight". A slight by definition has to be intentional. Quite obviously Robert and Jon did not know, not could they have known, they Selyse was going to become a Red God Zealot or any of the other things you mentioned.

I suppose Robert might have gotten some sense of her personality and thought she was unpleasant but went ahead with the betrothal anyway.  But I highly doubt he had a list of reasonable choices, sorted Them by personality and picked the nastiest one to marry to Stannis.  Because Jon Arryn would not let him be that stupid nor would Robert bother - he's too lazy.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It is an slight because Selyse  has an insufferable personality, she has very little empathy for other people that are lower than lords and ladies(at least Stannis is willing to make lords  out of people based on merit).She doesn't really spend time with her kid(it is sad when an insane fool and a giant are  better influence on your kid than you are). Like the meaning of her name, she is to blinded by the red faith to question any of it.

How do you know Selyse is not? Melisandre is not a noble and her Selyse has fully supported her rise in influence.

And she spends more time with her daughter than Stannis does. And how exactly is the insane fool a better influence on Shireen than her mother? Or the giant?

[Whitering]

How do you know Selyse is not? Melisandre is not a noble and her Selyse has fully supported her rise in influence.

And she spends more time with her daughter than Stannis does. And how exactly is the insane fool a better influence on Shireen than her mother? Or the giant?

She might be the daughter of Brynden Rivers and Shiera Seastar, so, yes, a noble, although they weren't married.

[Batbob45]

How do you know Selyse is not? Melisandre is not a noble and her Selyse has fully supported her rise in influence.

And she spends more time with her daughter than Stannis does. And how exactly is the insane fool a better influence on Shireen than her mother? Or the giant?

Mel use Selyse's own  low self esteem against her(Selyse hasn't had the best in luck in life). to be one of Stannis key advisers, was willing to burn people without remorse. She also wanted Renly to died. She also hate Edric Storm for just being born  a bastard. Selyse also didn't  get along with  Jon Snow that well. Shireen been around Patchface almost all her life and yet the girl is not mentally mess up ( she is also as smart as she is kind). unlike her mom, Shireen like Edric Storm and didn't care that he was a bastard. He had an better relationship with Jon Snow(he did stand up for her when Val said something). than Selyse did. Wun Weg doesn't need a reason since he got along with her and Patchface.

[7-KG]

On 29/12/2015 at 3:27 PM, Blackfyre Bastard said:

I can't recall Stannis complaining and grinding teeth about his marriage. Certainly he raises his voice to her when he thinks she's being out of line (eg trying to influence him on his decisions,) but that's something directed at her, not a complain on the spouse that was chosen for him.

Sorry for breaking this up for you guys, but this is really the only right answer. The truth is that Stannis didn't felt slighted at all. The OP is making stuff up to bash Stannis.