Heresy Project X+Y=J: Mance + Lyanna

[wolfmaid7]

Alright time to continue on with the essays: Mance + Lyanna.

Again i'm asking all posters out of courtesy to keep to the topic at hand and look at the esay on its own merit.We will have time for side by side comparisons in the Reflections thread.Until then have a respectful debate and a Happy New Year 

By : Feather Crystal

The only daughter of Rickard Stark was a strong-willed tomboy with grey eyes and brown hair, skilled at horses, and practiced at rings. She had a wild streak that her family called the “wolf blood”. This independent young woman was distressed to learn that she was to be betrothed to Robert Baratheon. She expressed her concern to Ned that Robert would never keep to one bed. She was so desperate to avoid marriage that she sentenced herself to the Wall disguised as a boy. 

A brother of the Nights Watch was noted as attending the Tourney of Harrenhal asking for men to take back to the Wall. He would have made the rounds of the different Houses collecting men. On his way back he stops at Winterfell. Lyanna slips in with the men and boys in her disguise when it was time for him to leave. She may or may not have had any help. Arya was alone when Yoren made her a boy, so maybe the secret was only between Lyanna and this black brother?

House Stark had a close relationship with the Nights Watch sending sons to the Wall to provide leadership, and to keep an eye on the management. Mance was a charismatic wildling who was adopted as a child by the Watch after they discovered him in a group of raiders that they had put to the sword. He later defects to return to the wildlings, and in time became their King Beyond the Wall, but not without some admitted visits to Winterfell. 

The reason he provides for leaving the Nights Watch was a tale that included hunting and getting attacked by a shadowcat. He says a woods witch took care of his wounds and patched his cape with red fabric and thread, but he has also talked freely about disguising himself as a singer to gain entrance to Winterfell. It was because of those visits that Mance and Lyanna recognized each other. 

Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael the Bard and I think this is actually Jon’s story. He is the bastard o’Winterfell.

Jon: “Were they your kin?” he asked her quietly. 
Ygritte: “The two we killed?” “No more than you are.” 
Jon: “Me?” He frowned. “What do you mean?” 
Ygritte: “You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.” 
Jon: “I am.” 
Ygritte: “Who was your mother?” 
Jon: “Some woman. Most of them are.” Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who. 
Ygritte: She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?” 
Jon: “I never knew my mother. Or any such song.” 
Ygritte: “Bael the Bard made it,” said Ygritte. “He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don’t sing them in the south.” 
Jon: “Winterfell’s not in the south,” Jon objected. 
Ygritte: “Yes it is. Everything below the Wall’s south to us.” 
Jon: He had never thought of it that way. “I suppose it’s all in where you’re standing.” 
Ygritte: “Aye,” Ygritte agreed. “It always is.” 
Jon: “Tell me,” Jon urged her. It would be hours before Qhorin came up, and a story would help keep him awake. “I want to hear this tale of yours.” 
Ygritte: “Might be you won’t like it much.” 
Jon: “I’ll hear it all the same.” 
Ygritte: “Brave black crow,” she mocked. “Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider.” 
Stonesnake gave a snort. “A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean.” 
Ygritte: “That’s all in where you’re standing too,” Ygritte said. “The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver’ in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.” 
“North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’” 
“Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.” 
Jon: Jon had never heard this tale before. “Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—” 
Ygritte: “This was Brandon the Daughterless,” Ygritte said sharply. “Would you hear the tale, or no?” 
Jon: He scowled. “Go on.”
Ygritte: “Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o’ Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast.” 
Jon: “Bael had brought her back?” 
Ygritte: “No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is— you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.” 
Jon: “It never happened,” Jon said. 
Ygritte: She shrugged. “Might be it did, might be it didn’t. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours.” She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. “The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword.” 
Jon: “So the son slew the father instead,” said Jon. 
Ygritte: “Aye,” she said, “but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael’s head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o’ his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak.” 
Jon: “Your Bael was a liar,” he told her, certain now. 
Ygritte: “No,” Ygritte said, “but a bard’s truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it.” She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep.

 

Qhorin Halfhand was Mance’s friend before and after he became King Beyond the Wall. I think Qhorin knew Jon was Mance’s son, but he carefully considered his words when speaking to Jon about Mance, because he didn’t want to be the one to tell him. Maybe he felt this was a revelation that should be provided by his father. Jon identifies with Mance is some respects, but Ned’s influence on him growing up developed his sense of duty. 

 

Jon: “My lord,” he said, “you never asked me how it went. With the girl.” 
Qhorin: “I am no lord, Jon Snow.” Qhorin slid the stone smoothly along the steel with his two-fingered hand. 
Jon: “She told me Mance would take me, if I ran with her.” 
Quorin: “She told you true.” 
Jon: “She even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . .” 
Quorin: “. . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well.” 
Jon: “You knew him?” 
Quorin: “We all knew him.” His voice was sad. 
Jon: They were friends as well as brothers, Jon realized, and now they are sworn foes. “Why did he desert?” 
Quorin: “For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it.” Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. “He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that’s true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again.” 
Jon: “Was he a good ranger?” 
Quorin: “He was the best of us,” said the Halfhand, “and the worst as well. Only fools like Thoren Smallwood despise the wildlings. They are as brave as we are, Jon. As strong, as quick, as clever. But they have no discipline. They name themselves the free folk, and each one thinks himself as good as a king and wiser than a maester. Mance was the same. He never learned how to obey.” 
Jon: “No more than me,” said Jon quietly.

 

When Mance and Lyanna cross paths and recognize each other, Lyanna begs him to keep her sexual identity a secret. A romance buds quickly between the two conspirators. Her identity as a boy was successful until a growing belly raised suspicion with some of the men. They capitalized on the situation while Mance was away on a ranging, backing her into a corner in a storage room in the Wall, which ultimately led to the rape, and she was severely injured during the struggle. On his return Mance learns that a group of his own brothers of the Watch raped and nearly killed a pregnant Lyanna. He takes her back to Winterfell where she gave birth to Jon. He stayed with her until Ned came home after the Rebellion, leaving her room only moments before Ned walks in. When he finally heads north again he found it hard to remain with the Nights Watch. He tries for a few years before defecting to live as a wildling.

Over the years Mance has made at least two documented return visits to Winterfell to see how his son was doing. On one visit he’s still a Crow as evidenced by the fact that he came with Qhorin Halfhand. Here is the first documented visit:

 

Mance: The king laughed. “Your Mance! Why not? I promised you a tale before, of how I knew you. Have you puzzled it out yet?” 
Jon: Jon shook his head. “Did Rattleshirt send word ahead?” 
Mance: “By wing? We have no trained ravens. No, I knew your face. I’ve seen it before. Twice.” 
Jon: It made no sense at first, but as Jon turned it over in his mind, dawn broke. “When you were a brother of the Watch . . .” 
Mance: “Very good! Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell. I was walking the wall around the yard when I came on you and your brother Robb. It had snowed the night before, and the two of you had built a great mountain above the gate and were waiting for someone likely to pass underneath.” 
Jon: “I remember,” said Jon with a startled laugh. A young black brother on the wallwalk, yes . . . 
Mance: “You swore not to tell.” 
Jon: And kept my vow. That one, at least.”
“We dumped the snow on Fat Tom. He was Father’s slowest guardsman.” Tom had chased them around the yard afterward, until all three were red as autumn apples. “But you said you saw me twice. When was the other time?”
Mance: “When King Robert came to Winterfell to make your father Hand,” the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly. 


 

 The second visit was after Mance defected and disguised himself as a singer.He tells Jon it was because he wanted to see Robert,but the details of the story tell another tale...the tale of a father checking on the well-being of his son.The second documented visit:

Jon: Jon’s eyes widened in disbelief. “That can’t be so.” 

Mance: “It was. When your father learned the king was coming, he sent word to his brother Benjen on the Wall, so he might come down for the feast. There is more commerce between the black brothers and the free folk than you know, and soon enough word came to my ears as well. It was too choice a chance to resist. Your uncle did not know me by sight, so I had no fear from that quarter, and I did not think your father was like to remember a young crow he’d met briefly years before. I wanted to see this Robert with my own eyes, king to king, and get the measure of your uncle Benjen as well. He was First Ranger by then, and the bane of all my people. So I saddled my fleetest horse, and rode.” 

Jon: But,” Jon objected, “the Wall . . .” 

Mance: “The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance.” He laughed. “I know every bawdy song that’s ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father’s meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels.” 

Jon: “Bael the Bard,” said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he’d almost killed her. 

Mance: “Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael’s exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?” 

Jon: “No,” said Jon. “If you had been discovered . . . taken . . .” 

Mance: “Your father would have had my head off.” The king gave a shrug. “Though once I had eaten at his board I was protected by guest right. The laws of hospitality are as old as the First Men, and sacred as a heart tree.”

 

No, Mance certainly did not steal one of Jon’s sister’s…he stole his mother. 

Mance carried a lot of guilt for many years over not being able to protect Lyanna. It wasn’t until after he saw how happy Jon was when playing with Robb that his conscience lifted. He and Qhorin had just left Winterfell and were on their way back to the Wall when he met Dalla. He tells the story to Jon:

 

Mance: …As to a crown, do you see one?” 

Jon: “I see a woman.” He glanced at Dalla. 

Mance: Mance took her by the hand and pulled her close. “My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father’s castle. The Halfhand was carved of old oak, but I am made of flesh, and I have a great fondness for the charms of women …

Later in the books, Mance is sent by Jon to fetch fake Arya, he takes it upon himself to go straight to Winterfell. While there he adopts a familiar disguise of a singer, and brings along a group of wildling spearwives to play the parts of washerwomen that came to work for the wedding. He takes the name Able which is an anagram for Bael. Mance has another ulterior motive for going to Winterfell other than saving fake Arya, and I believe it has something to do with Jon.

Mance couldn’t save Lyanna, but there is something that he can do for his son. There’s something that he knows, something that has been forgotten, and in order to pull it off he needs to gather his courage. Many people hum or sing when they’re scared as a distraction. Mance thinks of Lyanna then sings:

He was still waiting for his porridge when Ramsay swept into the hall with his Bastard’s Boys, shouting for music. Abel rubbed the sleep from his eyes, took up his lute, and launched into “The Dornishman’s Wife,” whilst one of his washerwomen beat time on her drum. The singer changed the words, though. Instead of tasting a Dornishman’s wife, he sang of tasting a northman’s daughter.

 

To summarize: Mance and Lyanna began their romance soon after Lyanna ran away to the Wall to avoid her marriage to Robert. Mance and Lyanna recognized each other regardless of her disguise as a boy due to his frequent visits to Winterfell. The two conspirators fell in love. Lyanna’s death was caused by being raped and nearly murdered like Danny Flint by a small group of brothers of the Nights Watch who noticed “the boy’s belly” was growing larger during the months when Mance was away on a ranging. Mance returns to find a mortally injured Lyanna and decides to take her back to Winterfell where she is found holding Jon after Ned’s return home after the Rebellion.

 

[house of dayne]

how can lyana be abducted by rhaegar if shes pregnant on the wall during the rebellion..and for what reason would ned ever support this story...and why doesnt mance just tell jon himself?

[purple-eyes]

Actually it is possible that lyanna slept with mance then she broke up with him and loved and slept with rhaegar. Then lyanna found she is pregnant and rhaegar thought it was his so he eloped with her. Lyanna birthed jon who is son of mance but lyanna and rhaegar thought it was rhaegar's. Then lyanna got a stillborn again, this time for rhaegar. 

Then ned came, lyanna died in birth fever. She gave jon to ned. 

[Ygrain]

A couple of issues that this theory doesn't answer:

- Why did Rickard leave Lyanna at Winterfell when he was travelling to Brandon's wedding?

- Why did Brandon think that Lyanna was kidnapped down in the Riverlands when she was actually last seen at Winterfell and travelling North?

- Why did people think that Rhaegar was involved and that the abduction took place near HH?

- Why couldn't Rhaegar be found after Lyanna's disappearance?

- Why didn't Rhaegar take his KG back to KL?

- Why did Ned go to ToJ and fight the KG there?

- Why did Ned have a dream about ToJ and Lyanna in her bed of blood

- Why did Ned keep thinking about Lyanna in association with the crown of blue roses?

Plus, some logistics: how did Mance transport a mortally wounded Lyanna all the way back down to Winterfell? And, if he managed to keep her alive the whole time, why did she die afterwards? And, how did they get in Winterfell without anyone noticing? And how come that a newbown baby appeared in Winterfell out of thin air, and no-one thought it strange?

 

And, a question that bothers me most: what is the textual proof of Lyanna ever wanting to run away to the Wall, not to mention actually doing the deed?

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I like interesting alternate theories, but this one as presented has too many complicating factors that conflict with other known facts.  I don't buy R+L=J, but this is one of the weaker alternate theories I have seen.  Didn't multiple people attest that Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar?

I could see Mance having impregnated Lyanna on one of his visits, but not her running away to the Wall.  Of course, we have two books of new information, maybe Jon will run into Benjen and talk about how he lied and said that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, but why would he do that?

[wolfmaid7]

A couple of issues that this theory doesn't answer:

- Why did Rickard leave Lyanna at Winterfell when he was travelling to Brandon's wedding?

- Why did Brandon think that Lyanna was kidnapped down in the Riverlands when she was actually last seen at Winterfell and travelling North?

- Why did people think that Rhaegar was involved and that the abduction took place near HH?

- Why couldn't Rhaegar be found after Lyanna's disappearance?

- Why didn't Rhaegar take his KG back to KL?

- Why did Ned go to ToJ and fight the KG there?

- Why did Ned have a dream about ToJ and Lyanna in her bed of blood

- Why did Ned keep thinking about Lyanna in association with the crown of blue roses?

Plus, some logistics: how did Mance transport a mortally wounded Lyanna all the way back down to Winterfell? And, if he managed to keep her alive the whole time, why did she die afterwards? And, how did they get in Winterfell without anyone noticing? And how come that a newbown baby appeared in Winterfell out of thin air, and no-one thought it strange?

 

And, a question that bothers me most: what is the textual proof of Lyanna ever wanting to run away to the Wall, not to mention actually doing the deed?

 

 

 

 

And the main one: what is the textual proof of Lyanna running to the Wall?

 

Ygrain depending on what clues the author has the bolded may not have anything to do with who Jon's parents are.This could all be supplimentary in order to attest to a wider story.But again as the Mance and Lyanna doing the deed or Lyanna and anyone doing the deed and having a baby it doesn't have to be directly related to parantage.

As to the other parts i agree.there's a lot of connectivity issues that leaves and incomplete picture.

[Ygrain]

For the sake of the argument, let us presume that the bolded may not be related to Jon's parentage. However, it presents a serious discrepancy to the proposed theory, and therefore it requires an explanation that the OP should provide.

[SFDanny]

My apologies to the writer, but this is straightforward fan fiction presented as a supposedly serious theory. So many blatant contradictions with what we have evidence for, such as Rhaegar running off/kidnapping Lyanna, with absolutely nothing in the form of even a smidge of hint from the text to suggest support for such a widely variant story. This one is not worth time for rebuttal other than to say, "it doesn't work!"

[Ygrain]

...I was waiting for someone to drop the f-bomb

[sciteacher]

I agree with SFDanny. The other theories in this series have all been based on information from the text. This started out reading like fan-fiction.

It may be difficult to draw quality responses.

[Clegane'sPup]

The main problem I see is that if Mance is telling Jon the truth, that the first time he visited WF was with Qorgyle, Mance would had to have visited WF between the years 282-288.  282 was the year Lyanna went missing (*) and Rickard & Brandon died, thereby making Eddard Lord of WF. 288 is the year Qorgyle died.

Jon & Robb are supposedly born in year 283. Mance recalls to Jon about the visit that Qorgyle & his companions came to visit Jon’s father and that the boys were playing in the snow, seemingly unsupervised, which would make the boys four to five-ish. Implying to me that Qorgyle and Mance visited WF a few years after Robert’s Rebellion.

I like The Mance. At one time I held out hope that he was Jon’s father, but it just doesn’t work.  I also keep looking for some hint that ties Mance to the Starks. No luck there either. Sadly, from my point of view, I only just today comprehended that The Mance is a deserter from the NW. That means he is going to die. That is the rule. Maybe he will go out in a blaze of glory fighting the Others.

(*) I’m not sure when or where Lyanna went missing.

[wolfmaid7]

Its good to see stuff on paper it lets you know if something is there or not.But for me also as I said we have to do a lot of filler with this one.I too don't see anything
That connects Mance beyond his own secret agenda what ever that may be.

[Clegane'sPup]

It has not passed my attention that you have put the possibilities as to Jon's parentage out for discussion.  Seems you gave a voice to each and all..

[wolfmaid7]

It has not passed my attention that you have put the possibilities as to Jon's parentage out for discussion.  Seems you gave a voice to each and all..

A voice? The only thing i'm responsible for is running whatever prospects people had.Some i liked more than others and voiced that and why.This was one of those that i didn't feel because it didn't have anything in the way of a foundation but i wasn't going to not run it because i didn't see the connection.There were also some prospects i liked that no one wrote about which was a bummer.

In this case who knows if anyone has an angle that we aren't seeing they can certainly chime in.Other than that i got nothing. 

[Clegane'sPup]

A voice? The only thing i'm responsible for is running whatever prospects people had.Some i liked more than others and voiced that and why.This was one of those that i didn't feel because it didn't have anything in the way of a foundation but i wasn't going to not run it because i didn't see the connection.There were also some prospects i liked that no one wrote about which was a bummer.

In this case who knows if anyone has an angle that we aren't seeing they can certainly chime in.Other than that i got nothing. 

Yes, a voice. Are you not the one who posted Heresy Project X + Y = J in various threads, thereby allowing people to post their opinion as to the parentage of Jon Snow? So, in case you misunderstood my comment, I was giving you kudos. It won't happen again. 

[wolfmaid7]

Yes, a voice. Are you not the one who posted Heresy Project X + Y = J in various threads, thereby allowing people to post their opinion as to the parentage of Jon Snow? So, in case you misunderstood my comment, I was giving you kudos. It won't happen again. 

 

Ohhhhhh i did misunderstand your post my bad.You did nothing wrong i just misunderstood your meaning....lol.Thanks a lot for your comment and moreso for participating its always good to have many eyes and ears on these things.

[Clegane'sPup]

Ohhhhhh i did misunderstand your post my bad.You did nothing wrong i just misunderstood your meaning....lol.Thanks a lot for your comment and moreso for participating its always good to have many eyes and ears on these things.

Not a problem. Thanks.

[Raisin' Bran]

I agree with many of the others on this thread.  While reading the main series, it never occurred to me that there was even a possibility that Mance and Lyanna had any contact.  After reading the OP, with its significant lack of textural "evidence", I can be confident that this theory never really was a theory, rather a wishful hope in contrast to the main contenders.

[dornishdame]

While I think that Mance's past, actions and motivations are intriguing to Jon, and there are - as presented in the OP - a number of parallels linking the two of them, I do not believe there is any evidence that Mance is Jon's father. Nor do I believe that the timeline as we know it supports a union between Mance and Lyanna producing Jon.  

Mance, like Ygritte and Tormund, makes Jon question his vows to the Night's Watch, and what the Watch stands for.  They make him question the preconceptions he had about the wildlings. Yes, there are links between Mance and Bael as there are between Rhaegar and Bael. But that does not mean that Mance is Jon's father.  If anything, early links between Mance and Bael are more likely to foreshadow Mance going to Winterfell with the explicit purpose of kidnapping a Stark maiden.  The visits Mance made to Winterfell, for me, highlight the link between the Night's Watch and the Starks - Qhorin and Aemon both speak to, and in front of, Jon about the Stark in Winterfell and the importance of Stark blood. 

I also cannot see what reason Ned would have to keep Jon's parentage a secret.  Mance was still a man of the Night's Watch at the time of Jon's birth. Yes, he may have wanted to ensure that other members of the Watch did not find out, or other Northerners.  But what about Cat? It makes little sense for him to be so sensitive of the issue and protective of Jon when he can simply say that his sister had a child with a Night's Watchman and following her death, he would be raising the child. 

[Melifeather]

how can lyana be abducted by rhaegar if shes pregnant on the wall during the rebellion..and for what reason would ned ever support this story...and why doesnt mance just tell jon himself?

 

First of all, I apologize that I was not aware that this essay had posted already as I had some edits that I had wanted to make, but I see I will have to dive in now.

I assert that Rhaegar was never involved in the kidnapping. I believe someone was wearing his armor when she was taken so that people believed it was Rhaegar, but he was a patsy that took the fall. Now who in the world would have the motivation to do such a thing? In a nutshell, Tywin Lannister. 

I wish my Tywin essay had gone first, because I cannot do the theory justice without using it as a starting point, but as briefly as I can muster Tywin wanted Aerys off the throne. He didn't like how paranoid Aerys was getting and he hated that Aerys declined his marriage proposal between Cersei and Rhaegar. He had his wife working the other end. Joanna was friends with Princess Rhaella (before she was queen) and Princess Elia of Dorne. 

 

“Lannisport was the end of our voyage,” Prince Oberyn went on, as Ser Arron Qorgyle helped him into a padded leather tunic and began lacing it up the back. “Were you aware that our mothers knew each other of old?” 

“They had been at court together as girls, I seem to recall. Companions to Princess Rhaella?”

“Just so. It was my belief that the mothers had cooked up this plot between them. Squire Squishlips and his ilk and the various pimply young maidens who’d been paraded before me were the almonds before the feast, meant only to whet our appetites. The main course was to be served at Casterly Rock.” 

“Cersei and Jaime.” 

“Such a clever dwarf. Elia and I were older, to be sure. Your brother and sister could not have been more than eight or nine. Still, a difference of five or six years is little enough. And there was an empty cabin on our ship, a very nice cabin, such as might be kept for a person of high birth. As if it were intended that we take someone back to Sunspear. A young page, perhaps. Or a companion for Elia. Your lady mother meant to betroth Jaime to my sister, or Cersei to me. Perhaps both.”

 

Or perhaps betroth Jaime to Elia to make way for a betrothal between Cersei and Rhaegar?

Later on Tywin works out a betrothal between Jaime and Lyssa Tully, and that was the genesis of the alliance of Lannister, Tully, Stark, Baratheon, and Arryn. Surely Aerys was suspicious of this alliance and may have been what triggered his suspicions about his own son Rhaegar.

Over on Last Hearth Lady Dyanna started an Arsenal of Echoes thread to collect together all the inverted parallels between the current story and the past. There's one echo in particular that I'd like to direct your attention to and it's when Lord Tywin sends out Ser Gregor out to raid the river lands after Tyrion was taken hostage by Catelyn. He sent Ser Gregor out in disguise with no sigils on clothing or banners. There is also the time Loras dressed in Renly's armor when the Tyrell and Lannister forces attacked Stannis at the Blackwater. I believe this is an inversion, an echo if you will, of "Rhaegar's" kidnapping of Lyanna. I believe Twyin dressed someone up in Rhaegar's armor with men riding under Rhaegar's banners in order to make people believe it was Rhaegar.

 

A couple of issues that this theory doesn't answer:

- Why did Rickard leave Lyanna at Winterfell when he was travelling to Brandon's wedding?

- Why did Brandon think that Lyanna was kidnapped down in the Riverlands when she was actually last seen at Winterfell and travelling North?

- Why did people think that Rhaegar was involved and that the abduction took place near HH?

- Why couldn't Rhaegar be found after Lyanna's disappearance?

- Why didn't Rhaegar take his KG back to KL?

- Why did Ned go to ToJ and fight the KG there?

- Why did Ned have a dream about ToJ and Lyanna in her bed of blood

- Why did Ned keep thinking about Lyanna in association with the crown of blue roses?

Plus, some logistics: how did Mance transport a mortally wounded Lyanna all the way back down to Winterfell? And, if he managed to keep her alive the whole time, why did she die afterwards? And, how did they get in Winterfell without anyone noticing? And how come that a newbown baby appeared in Winterfell out of thin air, and no-one thought it strange?

 

And, a question that bothers me most: what is the textual proof of Lyanna ever wanting to run away to the Wall, not to mention actually doing the deed?

To answer your questions above in order:

1) He must have left Lyanna behind if Brandon didn't hear about the kidnapping until he was on his way to Riverrun.

2) Where in the ASOIAF books does it ever say where Lyanna was kidnapped? If you are referring to the World book you have to take into consideration that the book was written by maesters as a gift to King Robert and would reflect the common belief at the time.

3) See explanation above about Tywin's plan to use Rhaegar's armor...a fake Rhaegar if you will.

4) Rhaegar was down south. The text says he "returned from the south". We don't know why he was south or what constitutes south, but it's a theory of mine that he left shortly after the Tourney of Harrenhal and took his son Aegon to Dorne for protection before making any moves against his father. With Varys's help they found another child to do a swap, so the child that Ser Gregor killed was some poor unfortunate.

5) The only record we have about the 3KG was from Ned's fever dream, so we don't know how much of it was literal, but there are a couple alternate explanations for their presence at the TOJ. My favorite involves a swap between Queen Rhaella and Ashara. Ashara left Kings Landing disguised as Rhaella and took Viserys to Dragonstone, and Rhaella went south with the 3KG to collect Aegon. So the 3KG were protecting their Queen who may or may not have miscarried at the TOJ. If she didn't die there, then she could be Lady Septa Lemore.

6) Ned was traveling to Starfall to return Ser Arthur Dayne's sword. Now this could go two ways. Either Ned killed Arthur sometime before the TOJ scene and the three men were only ordinary men that didn't know the Rebellion was over, surprising Ned and killing his men with arrows before anyone knew they were there, or Ned was still looking for Lyanna...didn't know about the deception just yet and still believing Rhaegar had taken her, so he follows some intel gained at Kings Landing, comes upon the 3KG who are guarding a pregnant, but about to miscarry Queen Rhaella. The 3KG would be protecting their Queen and future King.

7) Dreams are often a mashup of separate actual events. Ned knows how this is going to turn out, so the calling he hears is the knowledge that while he's fighting three men at the TOJ, Lyanna is either about to deliver or about to be injured, and if he had only known where she was he could have gotten there sooner to help her.

8) The color blue is symbolic of death and corruption, not just Lyanna's favorite flower.

9) If Mance and Lyanna were truly like Bael the Bard and the flower of Winterfell, they never left Winterfell since the Bael story says they were hiding in the crypts. This is one of the revisions that I would have added, because if the current story is an inverted parallel of the past and Arya is the inversion of Lyanna, Lyanna made it back to Winterfell, or to the Wall. One of the places that Arya wanted to go to, but never made it to.

10) To understand where I'm coming from with this inverted parallel theory, please go to this link for a more thorough discussion of this idea: http://thelasthearth.freeforums.net/post/13126/thread 

 

I like interesting alternate theories, but this one as presented has too many complicating factors that conflict with other known facts.  I don't buy R+L=J, but this is one of the weaker alternate theories I have seen.  Didn't multiple people attest that Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar?

I could see Mance having impregnated Lyanna on one of his visits, but not her running away to the Wall.  Of course, we have two books of new information, maybe Jon will run into Benjen and talk about how he lied and said that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, but why would he do that?

 

Please see explanation above about how I think Tywin had someone dress in Rhaegar's armor and lead a group of men under Rhaegar's banner to raid in the river lands. Lyanna somehow crosses paths with this raiding party, discovers that they are not actually Rhaegar and his men, and is taken into custody to conceal the lie. Aerys may have even known or instigated this plan. He was paranoid that Rhaegar was planning a coup and would have done anything to discourage any House from joining Rhaegar's cause.