The case for Tyrion as a anti-villain and a discussion on how his future arc could go

[Arya-Jon]

I think Tyrion may end up as a anti-villain of some kind.

The Anti-Villain is the opposite of an Anti-Hero - a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues

The thread's purpose is to discuss how Tyrions future arc will go. Am leaving some foreshadowing which I found to get you started. Part 1 is based on author quotes. Part II is book quotes.

Part 1

Author quotes:

Well, I made my appearance on Sheep Island a few hours ago, cleverly disguised as Tyrion the Imp for a reading and Q&A session at Bantam’s virtual bookstore. Only this version of Tyrion could fly! Ah, if only the Tyrion in the books could fly, what mischief he will… ah… could… ah, never mind. -GRRM, 2007

The author seems to be hinting at the possiblity of Tyrion as a dragon rider. Also, it seems to hint at some mischief he may do, once he gets a dragon. I found the way he ended this statement with "ah… could… ah, never mind." interesting as it makes it seem that he is actually giving us a spoiler. And this is 2007, a time when the Game of Thrones TV series was not released and the hype was not so high.

Even the villains... Certainly I have my favourites. Tyrion Lannister is my favourite. He is the grayest of the gray. In every conventional sense, he is on the wrong side but you have to agree with some of the things he is doing while loathing others.

Another small hint to the above possiblity. Do you people agree with the author that Tyrion is the greyest of the grey?

Interviewer: Do you have a favorite character?

George RR Martin: I’ve got to admit I kind of like Tyrion Lannister. He’s the villain of course, but hey, there’s nothing like a good villain. 

This was in around 1999, when very few of us would have considered Tyrion to be a villain. In this situation the author is refering to him as "the villain".  But that is not what struck me in this quote.

What struck me was that he called Tyrion a good villain.

Grrm has previously emphasized how important good villains are . For instance here-

Even when you kill a bad guy, it can be hard… he´s one of your ¨children¨too. Besides, good villains are hard to find, and you always have the nagging doubt that maybe you´ll need him down the line. -George Martin

Similarly here

I also loved Jetboy. Although he only appeared in that one story, he set the tone for much that followed. Even so, I might have to pass him over for Gregg Hartmann. A good story needs a good villain,and Gregg was our best, with a story arc that went all the way from book one through book fifteen. -George Martin

Here he is talking of Gregg Hartmann of the Wildcards fame, but it applies to Tyrion too. A good story certainly needs a good villain. So will that good villain be Tyrion, as Grrm did call Tyrion a good villain? He certainly is a central character.

Then there is the kinslaying thing too which would be significan in one way or the other

It’s nothing to the world, but it’s again something that’s going to haunt him, while the act of killing his father is something of enormous consequence that would be forever beyond the pale, for no man is as cursed as a kinslayer. -Grrm

 

Part II

Book quotes

There are worse ways to die than drowning. And if truth be told, he had perished long ago, back in King’s Landing. It was only his revenant who remained, the small vengeful ghost who throttled Shae and put a cross-bow bolt through the great Lord Tywin’s bowels. No man would mourn the thing that he’d become. I’ll haunt the Seven Kingdoms, he thought, sinking deeper. They would not love me living, so let them dread me dead.

Note the bolded portions which are interesting.

I find it interesting that this line is so similar to a line by Bobbono who is playing Tyrion in the Winds of Winter released chapter. 

“Give me the cup,” he told the Stranger, “for I shall drink deep. And if it tastes of gold and lion’s blood, so much the better. As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love.” (Bobono playing Tyrion)

I think this is the author playing with things, rather than a random line by a theater troupe. I doubt they could ever know of Tyrion's desire  to be a hero. 

In both these lines they are talking of "fear" and "dread". Do we know a character who ruled through fear and dread? Its Tywin Lannister.

You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you.

A similar line 

Now that's where you're wrong, Father. Why, I believe I'm you writ small.” (ASOS TYRION XI)

I think ruling through fear, riding dragons and being like Tywin will play a major role in Tyrion's arc.

Whatever be the case, we must trust no one. Tyrion is certainly among the characters we or more specifically Danny must not trust (if we believe Quaithe)

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and crow, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. -ADWD reading

Crow is Euron. Dont know why, but Grrm removed crow and replaced him with Darkflame in the book. Maybe Crow was too spoilery. Tyrion here is basically grouped with people who are not necessarily evil. Quentyn (the sun's son) is a good guy for instance. But they all have one thing in common. They all lust for Daenerys' dragons. They may be nice guys or bad guys, but the lust for dragons is there in all of them. Quentyn has already tried and perished.

Why I find this interesting is because of the very first GRRM quote.

Only this version of Tyrion could fly! Ah, if only the Tyrion in the books could fly, what mischief

So Tyrion does finally ride off with Dany's dragon and does some mischief?

"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

The above line does seem to indicate that Tyrion will be a very powerful figure in the second dance with dragons that GRRM mentioned will take place. What really got to me is Tyrion's response to this line by Moquorro

Snarling? An amiable fellow like 

This does seem to indicate that Tyrion would be taking care of his own interest possibly in opposition to the others . For being a big shadow , you must be very powerful, feared. How can he be feared if he is just an ally to the dragons? 

I strongly suspect that once he does get a dragon, he may not only get Casterly Rock, but possibly the iron throne.

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

And

“Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father’s seat? I promise you that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow.”

Stannis was refering to Eddard's seat. But maybe it is a trick by the author. After all Stannis may not live much longer. And once he dies we may have Tyrion sitting on Rhaegar's seat. It could be anything, DRagonstone or Kings Landing, Winterfell or Summerhall. Rhaegar spent most of his time in Kings Landing and Summerhall and went to Dragonstone when his father exiled him. The interpretations can be many. But if we look at in the light of "Tyrin Lannister stood tall as a King" and "A small man can have a big shadow", the interpreation of the Tyrion sitting on the iron throne for some time (which is arguably Rhaegar's seat) fits best.

Then there is Grrm 's quote about kinslaying mentioned above. When Grrm says no man is as accursed as a kinslayer, I think it only is significant from the author's perspective. According to Grrm kinslaying is importatant not because of what the people think of him ,but how it effects Tyrion.In fact the author did say :"Its nothing to the world", so its certainly not the people.  Could it be that he has set some kind of anticlimatic ending for Tyrion?

I  wont rule it out. I find it interesting that in both the show version and the book version, the only character who went underwater in both was Tyrion. The other characters changed and were interchanged (We wont discuss that bit here as this is a book thread, but just something I noticed)

“When he opened his mouth to curse them all, black water filled his lungs, and the dark closed in around him”

I find it interesting that Tyrion has actually drunk river water and nothing happens to him, while Connington gets greyscale by just putting his hand in to rescue him. And the whole scene was kind of left incomplete when Tyrion lost consiousness , so there is something surely going on there. The argument of this being plot armor is weak, mainly because they could have got Aegon or someone else  to save Tyion from drowning just like Pod saved him before. Why get him underwater in both the books and the show, while changing the other characters? 

“When he opened his mouth to curse them all, black water filled his lungs, and the dark closed in around him”

When will we be certain that I’m clean?“

"Truly?” said the Halfmaester. “Never. You swallowed half the river. You may be going grey even now, turning to stone from inside out, starting with your heart and lungs. ADWD

I find the theory of "inside out" logical as long as that happens at the very end. I just cant see him dying with a whimper. Like when he is at the very peak of his powers and everyone expects him to win, only then maybe he would completely fall to greyscale from inside out.

He would have asked one of the silent sisters, but when he tried to speak he found he had no mouth. Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth. The discovery terrified him. How could he live without a mouth? He began to run. The city was not far. He would be safe inside the city, away from all these dead. He did not belong with the dead. He had no mouth, but he was still a living man. No, a lion, a lion, and alive. But when he reached the city walls, the gates were shut against him.-Tyrion Dream COK

This dream is interesting because "Smooth seamless skin covered his teeth". Could it be foreshadowing?

There are many references to garygoyles in his narrative . http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/113454-tyrion-is-a-gargoyle/

 So who knows?

What are your ideas about his future arc. He certainly may have started to go a bit dark as this statement about Mycrella shows

Tyrion looked at the fat man with new interest. He is right on both counts. To queen her is to kill her. And I knew that. “Futile gestures are all that remain to me. This one would make my sister weep bitter tears, at least.”

While Tyrion always had that Tywin like ability to create fear and unsettle people using his eyes. Maybe a desire for revenge too

Her father's eyes had always been unsettling; pale green, almost luminous, flecked with gold.

His eyes could see inside you, could see how weak and worthless and ugly you were down deep. -Cersei

 

Something about Tyrion’s mismatched green-and-black eyes made men squirm; knowing that, he made good use of them. -Tyrion

But that Mycrella line about queening her to kill her  shows a bit of Littlefinger in him

So how do you think his arc will go? What are your ideas? Any more instances of foreshadowing or hints on how his arc will go?

[Wolf's Bane]

No way Tyrion is the villain.  He's anti-Cersei and now anti-Jaime.  He helped Jorah and Penny.  And if he helps Dany reclaim her seven kingdoms, that would make him one of the heroes in the story. 

 

[aryagonnakill#2]

The way Tyrions story is written it is often easy to overlook some of the things he has done, yes he is grey, but no he is not a villain. 

Rather than move Shae or send the singer who threatened to tell the Queen where she was to the wall he had him killed.

There was also a girl somewhere that he comments on being dead inside as a slave forced into prostitution but has sex with her anyway.

He abandoned Tysha to keep his wealth, despite what he may say about that, that's what happened.

However he is no villain.  Many people blame him for stuff that really isn't his fault or even evil, and he has done a lot of nice stuff as well purely out of goodness, he gained nothing from them.

His kindness to Jon, his designing Brans saddle, making sure Penny and Jorah join Brown Bens company with him, and he treated Sansa well during the time they were together.

This is not an evil person, its a grey person like everyone.

 

[Arya-Jon]

@aryagonnakill#2

It was ages ago that when someone used the term "Hero" it meant a goody goody hero. Now there are different types of heroes. The first type of hero was the "classic hero". But nowadays there are so many variations . Something which is very common now is the "Anti - Hero". A hero who may uses lies, even treachery,murder,assasinations or other kinds of  deeds which we usually associate with villains but in a cause which the audience think is right. Someone like Bloodraven or Arya may later go on to fit that mold for instance.  The Anti hero is not exactly an ideal you look up to (unlike the classic hero) , but  they are heroes all the same. They have lots of greyness ,but the good point about them is that they are in what most of the audience percieves to be the right side by the time the story ends .

Anti villain also has lots of greyness just like the anti hero. Just their cause is against the protagonists by the time their story ends or by the time they die.

Anti villain is still a villain and anti hero is still a hero. Tyrion may not necessarily be a anti villain now, but by the story ends there is a good chance he may be.  (Anti villain=a villain with some heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues). When Martin calls Tyrion a villain , he is obviously referring to anti-villain. Its the same with me. It certainly does not ignore any greyness in character.

 

 

[Batbob45]

Tyrion did abused that female slave.

[Woman of War]

Tyrion did abused that female slave.

That's what Aryagonnakill just said.

Tyrion is meant as challenge to us readers more than other characters in being "the greyest of grey". He is constantly oscillating in thoughts and actions, whenever we pity him his character gives us reasons to ask if he didn't just get what he deserves: poor guy got his fame for Blackwater stolen from him? The author lets him kill off the singer! His lover gets threatened? Martin lets us hear his ugly thoughts about Tommen! But then Tyrion allows himself to be convinced to marry Sansa? He does not abuse her! He gets publicly humiliated and condemned to death for something he didn't do? Let him kill Shae and Tywin! He is a depressd emotional wreck? Let him mistreat that slave prostitute! Let him get enslaved himself in turn........you get the picture. 

Martin makes abundantly clear that this character is not meant to be easily digested, that we are supposed to swallow hard if we root for him. In no other character we get his inner thoughts about his own actions, his own morality in such a differenciated and painfully obvious manner. Martin wants us to doubt Tyrion just like Tyrion doubts himself.

Tyrion is not the politically correct model handicapped who wins the heart of us readers. He is no Uncle Tom, no paragon of goodness, teaching us morality lessons for beginners. Tyrion as fictional character is edgy, he fights back, we cannot smoothly slide into rooting for the poor handicapped. 

We do not know what moral conflicts Martin has in store for him. Will Tyrion embrace his inner Tywin or reject him? "My father would have poisoned the wells", will Tyrion, yes or no? Will Tyrion only care for Tyrion or will we see the one who cares for bastards, cripples and broken things? Or both? The one who is set up to save the world via his knowledge, compassion and his competences or the one who dooms the world?

Has Tyrion already hit rock botton, is he going to pull himself out of his own moral mud from now on? I guess Martin will keep him grey for a while yet, make him do questionable things around Mereen just like Dany did, only maybe less erratic. And we will get some level of self reflection we get from no other character. Martin allows us to analyse Tyrion's dark spots in every detail, dark details non POV characters easily hide from us. Things we need not come to terms with in them because we never know about them. While Tyrion's naked soul gets thrown at our mercy.

Anti-villain or anti-hero in the end? We are not supposed to guess yet. But to me Tyrion is the most fascinating and complex character of the books.

 

it is interesting to note btw, that both Lannister brothers get so much careful writing from the author. Martin loves his Lannisters

[Arya-Jon]

 

 

it is interesting to note btw, that both Lannister brothers get so much careful writing from the author. Martin loves his Lannisters

Exactly! Arguably the most  well written POVs in the entire book.  The way they think, the way their mind works is just so interesting. 

Theon, Davos maybe Arya give close competetion as far as the though process is concerned. But the Lannister brothers surely win it. I like Cersei too that way, though its more because I find it funny.

[Meera of Tarth]

Arya-Jon, there could be a reason why he falls into the river, but, concerning the show, I have no doubts that they didn't change this because it was a good thing for the plot, whether or not it has to do with Tyrion's evolution

 

IMO Tyrion won't be a classic villain, if he is to become one. However, I have no clues as for what will be his ending, concerning he is the author's favourite one. But I must say that he clearly is a grey character, and I have also thought that he can become more grey. I don't know if you are familiar with Lex's Luthor version of the show Smallville, but when I was watching GOT, and then, reading Dance, I found a lot of parallelisms with that particular character, who gradually became a villain.

[Arya-Jon]

Arya-Jon, there could be a reason why he falls into the river, but, concerning the show, I have no doubts that they didn't change this because it was a good thing for the plot, whether or not it has to do with Tyrion's evolution

There certainly is something going on with the whole falling into the river business. May not necessarily be greyscale.

Though I am suspicious of that because of the two quotes I mentioned . One is from the haelfmaster  "You may be turning grey from inside out". The other one is his dream "Where smooth seamless skin covered his mouth" . There is also a lot of Gargoyle comparisons with Tyrion . http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/113454-tyrion-is-a-gargoyle/ . It is also interesting that its Tyrion's desire to open his mouth to curse them all that makes the river water go inside him. I have seen many lines where Tyrion says "his mouth/tongue will be the end of him" .  .So maybe?

Now I am quoting from Woman of War here who is mentioning the various possible meanings of Gargoyle

First, the obvious as mentioned above, to spill out water, meaning to deduct rainwater from cathedral walls in order to preserve the stone.

Then in their grotesque looks they were meant as sign to the often illiterate population of hell and evil in afterlife that may befall the sinners.

(apart from that: the stone mansions had a lot of fun depicting themselves or shaping grotesque caricatures of less liked rulers or neighbours high up under the cathedral's roof where, apart from those working there, not many could enjoy the pun, very private jokes, schadenfreude at its best)

Third, and an aspect that has not been mentioned so far: Gargoyles symbolized fending off evil spirits from the buildings and the city, they were protectors precisely by their grotesque and absurd looks, deducting evil spirits out of buildings and keeping dark forces away.

So the Gargoyle symbolism with Tyrion could be because he is a protector and there are valid arguments for that. But it could also be the first one. "Then in their grotesque looks they were meant as sign to the often illiterate population of hell and evil in afterlife that may befall the sinners."

There is also the argument that he is immune to greyscale because he is a dragon.  But Grrm himself has said that Dany surviving was a one time magical event. And many Targaryens have died in the Great Spring Sickness and may even have been poisoned at some point.  I dont buy this one at all. It relies on a out of context quote "Death comes from the Dragons mouth but death does not go in that way". 

The eyes were where a dragon was most vulnerable. The eyes, and the brain behind them. Not the underbelly, as certain old tales would have it. The scales there were just as tough as those along a dragon's back and flanks. And not down the gullet either. That was madness. These would-be dragonslayers might as well try to quench a fire with a spear thrust. "Death comes out of the dragon's mouth," Septon Barth had written in his Unnatural History, "but death does not go in that way."

By that logic eyes are Dany's weakest parts and the brain behind her eyes. Her underbelly is completely safe. Equating an actual dragon to a Targaryen in this way does not really make sense to me. But maybe they are right, and I am wrong , who knows?

So we will have to wait for the books (or maybe the show) to see whether I am right or wrong on this.

IMO Tyrion won't be a classic villain, if he is to become one. However, I have no clues as for what will be his ending, concerning he is the author's favourite one. But I must say that he clearly is a grey character, and I have also thought that he can become more grey. I don't know if you are familiar with Lex's Luthor version of the show Smallville, but when I was watching GOT, and then, reading Dance, I found a lot of parallelisms with that particular character, who gradually became a villain.

I agree. If anyone has the capability to be a classic villain, its Euron and maybe Ramsay.  I agree with the gradually becoming a villain part with the type of villain being anti-villain. I remember Walter White of Breaking Bad and for a portion of the series I though he was an anti-hero. Only later did it dawn to me that he was an anti-villain. The line between anti-hero and anti-villain is very thin and thats why I think it fits Tyrion so much. 

I had not watched that series.  Will watch it soon. Are you a big fan? Is that why you have Smallville as your location  ?   The ansers to the above two questions are obvious, but still  .

Its interesting though. On a read of the Wiki portion of the show's Lex Luthor, it really seems to fit the way I think Tyrion's story will go.

 

[RobOsevens]

IMO Tyrion won't be a classic villain, if he is to become one. However, I have no clues as for what will be his ending, concerning he is the author's favourite one. But I must say that he clearly is a grey character, and I have also thought that he can become more grey. I don't know if you are familiar with Lex's Luthor version of the show Smallville, but when I was watching GOT, and then, reading Dance, I found a lot of parallelisms with that particular character, who gradually became a villain.

Smallville/Lex Luthor is a good analogy for Tyrion potentially becoming a hero. It basically gives us the reasoning for his becoming a villain and makes us sympathetic to his plight and we understand it. It could end up being the same for Tyrion, he may get to Dany and help her or save Mereen for her as he saved KL and be spurned for it again, that could lead to him going all villain on us, we will have to wait and see. 

I had not watched that show.  Will watch it soon. Are you a big fan of the show? Is that why you have Smallville as your location  ?  

Im a big Superman fan and the show is good at best with lots of mediocrity and lots of bad. Season 1-4/5 good then skip to season 9 and 10.

The whole idea behind the show was "No flights and no tights" which is fine while Clark is in highschool but once they develop him beyond there they have him being a low rate hero without becoming a superhero and not giving the fans what they want. All while adapting comic storylines in a terrible fashion... hmm im sensing a parallel here. 

[Arya-Jon]

All while adapting comic storylines in a terrible fashion... hmm im sensing a parallel here. 

Are you secretly smiling like Mellisandre/ Mona Lisa or something with a knowing smile. Game of Thrones, right? 

[Myself656]

Honestly, I think Daenerys is going to end up in more of the Anti-Villain mold than anyone (she's decided that Blood and Fire is the right way to get what she wants and that's pure anti-villain; it doesn't matter how many innocents get hurt as long I achieve my good and noble ends).

That said, the trick with "Anti-Hero" and "Anti-Villain" designations is they only become completely clear at the end of story because the difference between the two can be razor thin.

Say for example that Dany holds to her course with unbending rigor to the bitter end... thus cementing her as a true Anti-Villain (rather than an anti-hero going through a rough patch). In such a case whether or not Tyrion ends up as an anti-villain or anti-hero would similarly depend largely upon how strongly and permanently he aligns himself with Dany once they actually meet. If he holds loyally to her unto the end he'll be a fellow anti-villain. If, at some point, he decides she's gone too far and acts to oppose her he'll probably swing into the anti-hero category.

Conversely, Dany could pull back from the abyss, realize a line she won't cross in letting innocents be hurt and end the story as an anti-hero. In that case a Tyrion who stands with her and perhaps even offered the counsel that pulled her back would similarly end the story an anti-hero while a Tyrion who instead disregarded Dany's decision and proceeded to kill a bunch of innocents for the greater good would end the story as an anti-villain.

At this point I could see either or both of Dany and Tyrion heading down either path and we probably won't know for sure which it will be until the climax of the final book.

[RobOsevens]

Are you secretly smiling like Mellisandre/ Mona Lisa or something with a knowing smile. Game of Thrones, right? 

Too be honest I just couldnt help myself I really dont have much of a problem with the show, sure there are some characterizations I dislike but most of the storyline changes I understand from a TV perspective

[Arya-Jon]

.

[Arya-Jon]

Honestly, I think Daenerys is going to end up in more of the Anti-Villain mold than anyone (she's decided that Blood and Fire is the right way to get what she wants and that's pure anti-villain; it doesn't matter how many innocents get hurt as long I achieve my good and noble ends).

That said, the trick with "Anti-Hero" and "Anti-Villain" designations is they only become completely clear at the end of story because the difference between the two can be razor thin.

Say for example that Dany holds to her course with unbending rigor to the bitter end... thus cementing her as a true Anti-Villain (rather than an anti-hero going through a rough patch). In such a case whether or not Tyrion ends up as an anti-villain or anti-hero would similarly depend largely upon how strongly and permanently he aligns himself with Dany once they actually meet. If he holds loyally to her unto the end he'll be a fellow anti-villain. If, at some point, he decides she's gone too far and acts to oppose her he'll probably swing into the anti-hero category.

Conversely, Dany could pull back from the abyss, realize a line she won't cross in letting innocents be hurt and end the story as an anti-hero. In that case a Tyrion who stands with her and perhaps even offered the counsel that pulled her back would similarly end the story an anti-hero while a Tyrion who instead disregarded Dany's decision and proceeded to kill a bunch of innocents for the greater good would end the story as an anti-villain.

At this point I could see either or both of Dany and Tyrion heading down either path and we probably won't know for sure which it will be until the climax of the final book.

I agree mostly with what you said. Though I think she will be more of an Anti-hero (due to whole blood and fire thing). Anti heroes just need to be on the right side and the right cause (in the perspective of the audience). They may use wrong / unideal methods but as long as the audience feel the cause is just  their anti hero status does not go. Even Aegon gave blood and fire.  Is he a villain? At least in Westeros he is not, because history is written by the winners. But for us the audience? So it depends on how convinced are we by Dany's reasons for giving blood and fire and the way it is presented by the author/ show runners. The possible fight between Dany and the whitewalkers or Euron muddles it all further.  Even if we do consider her a villain for the "blood and fire " thing, its possible our opinion may change because of her fight with Euron/ Whitewalkers.  She may even be a Tragic-Hero (Due to the possible third betrayal or sacrifice).  At this point the author can go either way with Dany and Tyrion. Even Jon would have been a possible candidate for anti villain after ressurection. Though this quote seems to reduce that chance.

On which “Game of Thrones” character he would play: “If I could magically clap my hands and become a different person, it would be cool to play Jon Snow, who is much more the classic hero. Everybody wants to be the classic hero, right?

Tyrion can be an anti hero theoretically. But because of some Grrm quotes which I mentioned in my OP and also  some weird quotes of Tyrion and Bobbono (who played Tyrion in a play in AWOW) on the lines of "if I cannot be the hero let me be the monster" or "And if truth be told, he had perished long ago, back in King’s Landing. It was only his revenant who remained, the small vengeful ghost who throttled Shae and put a cross-bow bolt through the great Lord Tywin’s bowels. I will haunt the seven kingdoms. They did not love me living. Let them dread me dead"

It can be that its all coincidence., but if I were a betting man, I would bet on him being an anti-villain. (That may possibly lead me to lose my money, but who cares, I am not a betting man  )

[Arya-Jon]

Too be honest I just couldnt help myself I really dont have much of a problem with the show, sure there are some characterizations I dislike but most of the storyline changes I understand from a TV perspective

Same here . Though there are certainly some storyline changes I dont understand but most of them I do.

 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Tyrion is by far my favourite thing about ASOIAF.  He is fascinating, funny, witty, cunning and unpredictable.  His shades of grey are a big factor in this.  If he was all good and virtuous and just misunderstood, he'd be a bit dull, I think.

Unlike the people who meet Tyrion in the story, we are given insider knowledge and understanding of his personal motivations and moral stance.  He is continuously misunderstood and underestimated for good and bad.  I like the irony of people writing him off as a monster and suspecting him of evil-doing even when he is trying to do good and, conversely, people writing him off as a joke when he has the cunning and influence to ruin them. 

He also features in a huge number of storylines and locations.  We've seen him with many different characters and houses at Winterfell, The Wall, The Crossroads, The Eyrie, The Riverlands, Kingslanding, Pentos, The Rhoyne, Volantis, the smoking sea of old Valyria, Slavers bay and Mereen.  We also see his influence in Dorne (he sent Myrcella) and Braavos (in a play).  He must be the best travelled main character (whose travels we've seen).

He also gives Arya competition in the number of roles and aliases he has played - Lord, Imp, Friend to Cripples, bastards & broken things, prisoner, King's hand, battle strategist, murderer / kinslayer, fugitive, clown, slave and sellsword.   He is called Tyrion, Lord, Imp, Dwarf, Demon, Lion, Halfman, Yollo and Hugor Hill.

He may have a lot of enemies (many just because he is a Lannister), but he also has allies all over the place, some of who are key players in the story - Jon, Bran, (Sansa?), (Jaime?), Varys, Illyrio, (f)Aegon & co and the Second Sons.  (Some of these may or may not be allies in the future.).

I think he has the potential to be both anti-villain and anti-hero (depending on your PoV) and I don't know if he will still be standing at the end but I'm sure he will be key in how we get there. I really hope he gets to ride a dragon in the process!

tl:dr - I heart Tyrion

 

[khal drogon]

Tyrion is by far my favourite thing about ASOIAF.  He is fascinating, funny, witty, cunning and unpredictable.  His shades of grey are a big factor in this.  If he was all good and virtuous and just misunderstood, he'd be a bit dull, I think.

Unlike the people who meet Tyrion in the story, we are given insider knowledge and understanding of his personal motivations and moral stance.  He is continuously misunderstood and underestimated for good and bad.  I like the irony of people writing him off as a monster and suspecting him of evil-doing even when he is trying to do good and, conversely, people writing him off as a joke when he has the cunning and influence to ruin them. 

He also features in a huge number of storylines and locations.  We've seen him with many different characters and houses at Winterfell, The Wall, The Crossroads, The Eyrie, The Riverlands, Kingslanding, Pentos, The Rhoyne, Volantis, the smoking sea of old Valyria, Slavers bay and Mereen.  We also see his influence in Dorne (he sent Myrcella) and Braavos (in a play).  He must be the best travelled main character (whose travels we've seen).

He also gives Arya competition in the number of roles and aliases he has played - Lord, Imp, Friend to Cripples, bastards & broken things, prisoner, King's hand, battle strategist, murderer / kinslayer, fugitive, clown, slave and sellsword.   He is called Tyrion, Lord, Imp, Dwarf, Demon, Lion, Halfman, Yollo and Hugor Hill.

He may have a lot of enemies (many just because he is a Lannister), but he also has allies all over the place, some of who are key players in the story - Jon, Bran, (Sansa?), (Jaime?), Varys, Illyrio, (f)Aegon & co and the Second Sons.  (Some of these may or may not be allies in the future.).

I think he has the potential to be both anti-villain and anti-hero (depending on your PoV) and I don't know if he will still be standing at the end but I'm sure he will be key in how we get there. I really hope he gets to ride a dragon in the process!

tl:dr - I heart Tyrion

 

Yes. Tyrion is the character who connects every major character in the story.

And I can't predict his arc but I think he will be the closest thing to Tywin Lannister in the next book.

[Arya-Jon]

Tyrion is by far my favourite thing about ASOIAF.  He is fascinating, funny, witty, cunning and unpredictable.  His shades of grey are a big factor in this.  If he was all good and virtuous and just misunderstood, he'd be a bit dull, I think.

Unlike the people who meet Tyrion in the story, we are given insider knowledge and understanding of his personal motivations and moral stance.  He is continuously misunderstood and underestimated for good and bad.  I like the irony of people writing him off as a monster and suspecting him of evil-doing even when he is trying to do good and, conversely, people writing him off as a joke when he has the cunning and influence to ruin them. 

He also features in a huge number of storylines and locations.  We've seen him with many different characters and houses at Winterfell, The Wall, The Crossroads, The Eyrie, The Riverlands, Kingslanding, Pentos, The Rhoyne, Volantis, the smoking sea of old Valyria, Slavers bay and Mereen.  We also see his influence in Dorne (he sent Myrcella) and Braavos (in a play).  He must be the best travelled main character (whose travels we've seen).

He also gives Arya competition in the number of roles and aliases he has played - Lord, Imp, Friend to Cripples, bastards & broken things, prisoner, King's hand, battle strategist, murderer / kinslayer, fugitive, clown, slave and sellsword.   He is called Tyrion, Lord, Imp, Dwarf, Demon, Lion, Halfman, Yollo and Hugor Hill.

He may have a lot of enemies (many just because he is a Lannister), but he also has allies all over the place, some of who are key players in the story - Jon, Bran, (Sansa?), (Jaime?), Varys, Illyrio, (f)Aegon & co and the Second Sons.  (Some of these may or may not be allies in the future.).

I think he has the potential to be both anti-villain and anti-hero (depending on your PoV) and I don't know if he will still be standing at the end but I'm sure he will be key in how we get there. I really hope he gets to ride a dragon in the process!

tl:dr - I heart Tyrion

 

Hit the nail on head,  you have .   If I remove Jon or Dany (I  root for them and Arya the most) , think the story may still possibly remain interesting, just a name change may be required. But if you remove Tyrion, dont know what will happen to Asoiaf and whether we would ever be able to relate to it the same way.

Ride a Dragon, he will. (Or so I think). So many things seem to point to that plus dragons are crucial to him truly overcoming the restrictions due to his physique.  And all this talk about a "Small man with a big shadow" both by Moquorro and Varys indicates that he will be among the most powerful men or maybe even the most powerful man in Westeros for at least a certain amount of time. 

 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

 

 

I agree. If anyone has the capability to be a classic villain, its Euron and maybe Ramsay.  I agree with the gradually becoming a villain part with the type of villain being anti-villain. I remember Walter White of Breaking Bad and for a portion of the series I though he was an anti-hero. Only later did it dawn to me that he was an anti-villain. The line between anti-hero and anti-villain is very thin and thats why I think it fits Tyrion so much. 

I had not watched that series.  Will watch it soon. Are you a big fan? Is that why you have Smallville as your location  ?   The ansers to the above two questions are obvious, but still  .

Its interesting though. On a read of the Wiki portion of the show's Lex Luthor, it really seems to fit the way I think Tyrion's story will go.

 

Yes, I'm a big fan!! I highly recommend you to watch it, whether or not you are a Superman fan, because it's the same story but different told.

The first season has a childish  tone (the characters are supposed to be 14 years old) so don't get disappointed if you start it and find it repetitive, because from S2-S3, everything starts changing gradually and the characters begin to develop. It's worth watching in the long term. The story has some great twists and really good character's progressions. And there are a lot of things that at the beginning don't make change but several years after, they pop again and, in general it's good storytelling. And, apart from that similarity I found with Tyrion/Lex in terms of anti-villains, there a lot more with GoT in general.

Here there is a graph about the ratings of the episodes on IMDB. The general trend is that each season has some good episodes (usually in the middle of the season and the end of it) but of course some bad ones.

http://graphtv.kevinformatics.com/tt0279600

I don't want to write more about this in your thread because it's off-topic so if you have any question you can send me a PM.

Another good thing is that there are LOT of cameos of actors from the original Superman movies. even Christopher Reeve appeared

Smallville/Lex Luthor is a good analogy for Tyrion potentially becoming a hero. It basically gives us the reasoning for his becoming a villain and makes us sympathetic to his plight and we understand it. It could end up being the same for Tyrion, he may get to Dany and help her or save Mereen for her as he saved KL and be spurned for it again, that could lead to him going all villain on us, we will have to wait and see. 

Im a big Superman fan and the show is good at best with lots of mediocrity and lots of bad. Season 1-4/5 good then skip to season 9 and 10.

The whole idea behind the show was "No flights and no tights" which is fine while Clark is in highschool but once they develop him beyond there they have him being a low rate hero without becoming a superhero and not giving the fans what they want. All while adapting comic storylines in a terrible fashion... hmm im sensing a parallel here. 

Well, in my mind Smallville is just a different universe of Superman. I don't want to spoil anything to Arya-Jon, so I'll just say Clark's progression is different from the comics, the characters he meets (despite of the fact in the long term we meet a lot of other known heroes and villains from the universe), his relationship with Lex and when he meets him.... so it has to be taken as a different universe to really appreciate it. I know it's not a masterpiece and it has some "holes"  of course but I think that it is generally underrated. My favourite one is S3 and I think the worst is S9, but I like them all. I agree with you that S6-S8 are commonly seen as the "odd ones" but it depends on the person. I personally really enjoyed S6, for instance. And S7 has good episodes such as Descent, Apocalypse or Artict.

And I didn't like S9 because it was like a different show from the previous seasons, but it's a personal view. I enjoyed it despite of this.