The case for Tyrion as a anti-villain and a discussion on how his future arc could go

[Joy Hill]

I find it interesting that in ASOS, after the Lannister brothers reunite, have their confrontation and part ways, Jaime heads for the light (upstairs) while Tyrion heads toward darkness (the tunnels). It's like they have arrived at a crossroad and they trade their pathes.

It would be brilliant if Jaime, who was originally presented as the villain, ends up becoming a hero, while Tyrion, who was presented as the underdog to root for, ends up becoming a villain (even if they never were nor will be completely white or black).

And I agree about the Smallville!Lex and Tyrion parallel (it's funny, because I was thinking about that yesterday). There is a scene where Lex tells his father who lies on the floor injured "I am the son you always wanted" (I don't remember the context exactly, it's been a while since I watched Smallville), and it's a turning point for the character. Quite similar to Tyrion's "I am your son. I believe I am you writ small."

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Yes. Tyrion is the character who connects every major character in the story.

And I can't predict his arc but I think he will be the closest thing to Tywin Lannister in the next book.

I think he's so much better than Tywin.  He is as smart and strategic-thinking as Tywin but he's not afraid of ridicule (he's dealt with it all his life), he doesn't lust for power at any cost and he is genuinely keen to learn.  I think his downfall is more likely to be love (again).

[Arya-Jon]

There is a scene where Lex tells his father who lies on the floor injured "I am the son you always wanted" (I don't remember the context exactly, it's been a while since I watched Smallville), and it's a turning point for the character. Quite similar to Tyrion's "I am your son. I believe I am you writ small."

Thanks for this piece of info. It would be interesting to see when the series ends how much they are similar . I just love the character of Jaime and the way Martin wrote him  

Yes, I'm a big fan!! I highly recommend you to watch it, whether or not you are a Superman fan, because it's the same story but different told.

 

 

I am sold on this being the next series I watch  .  You and some others in this forum have made me curious. Seems like a interesting watch.

I think he's so much better than Tywin.  He is as smart and strategic-thinking as Tywin but he's not afraid of ridicule (he's dealt with it all his life), he doesn't lust for power at any cost and he is genuinely keen to learn.  I think his downfall is more likely to be love (again).

You are right. But I think Tyrion is the only child of Tywin who has actually learnt from him on how to rule and how to deal with your enemies or those who displease you .Its odd especially when we compare it with the Starks who have all learnt so much from Ned. Jaime has nothing of Tywin in him. The only thing Cersei has in common with him is a lust for power. And there is this common trait that Tyrion shares with Tywin.

Her father's eyes had always been unsettling; pale green, almost luminous, flecked with gold.

His eyes could see inside you, could see how weak and worthless and ugly you were down deep. -Cersei

Something about Tyrion’s mismatched green-and-black eyes made men squirm; knowing that, he made good use of them. -Tyrion

So I would agree with Genna  and subscribe to the view that Tyrion is the closest thing you can have to Tywin (though of course he is a much better and different person)

Its interesting how Tyrion's arc has gone. If you look at most of the protagonists , be it Arya, Jon, Dany, Jaime their overall faith in humanity has not been damaged. But for Tyrion, Jaime was the only person in his family whom he loved.   Hatred from Cersei , rejection from his father , getting blame/mockery from the smallfolk did not really affect him because he still had Jaime and in his mind, Shae to hold on to .  But both of them ended up dissapointing him (Which may or may not be their fault) . This line probably captures his sentiment very well

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women

But he still has a some level of faith in humanity left, however small it may be. He still feels sympathetic towards people and can rescue people like he rescued Aegon in the river Rhoyne.  But what if another person he loves or trusts lets him down again? What if  Dany unknowingly lets him down? It does not even have to be a woman. What if its Jon for that matter? How many blows can Tyrion take? No matter how good a person you are, there comes a time when you say *uck this. I cant take it any more. There is no point in loving or trusting a person.  Its tragic the way things have happened with him. Tysha, Jaime, having a family who hates you. Its a surprise that he has handled that so well , especially till the end of  ASOS.

So yeah if he begins to love someone intensely or even trusts anyone a lot and is let down again, he may finally loose faith in humanity. If that happens he may embrace that Tywin inside him (in dealing with those he does not like which may now include those who let him down) and may begin playing mischief like Littlefinger  does. When someone is as depressed as Tyrion is , playing such mischief becomes the only means of amusement and a way to keep himself entertained. His earlier method was whores, but doubt it remains effective after what happened with Shae.

Which is why I think your below quote is true.

I think his downfall is more likely to be love (again).

[Meera of Tarth]

 

But he still has a some level of faith in humanity left, however small it may be. He still feels sympathetic towards people and can rescue people like he rescued Aegon in the river Rhoyne.  But what if another person he loves or trusts lets him down again? What if  Dany unknowingly lets him down? It does not even have to be a woman. What if its Jon for that matter? How many blows can Tyrion take? No matter how good a person you are, there comes a time when you say *uck this. I cant take it any more. There is no point in loving or trusting a person.  Its tragic the way things have happened with him. Tysha, Jaime, having a family who hates you. Its a surprise that he has handled that so well , especially till the end of  ASOS.

So yeah if he begins to love someone intensely or even trusts anyone a lot and is let down again, he may finally loose faith in humanity. If that happens he may embrace that Tywin inside him (in dealing with those he does not like which may now include those who let him down) and may begin playing mischief like Littlefinger  does. When someone is as depressed as Tyrion is , playing such mischief becomes the only means of amusement and a way to keep himself entertained. His earlier method was whores, but doubt it remains effective after what happened with Shae.

Which is why I think your below quote is true.

That reasoning is very interesting, It's curious how we can see how Tyrion's mind changes, not much, but it does. I do, in fact, think that he is gradually becoming more grey in his thoughts after he is attacked and insulted and especially after he kills his father. That was an inflection point.

Maybe he won't become a villain (I think that, at most, he will be the anti-villain you are referring too) but his faith in humanity and his patience may have a limit, and if he has killed before, he can do it again.

[Meera of Tarth]

 

I am sold on this being the next series I watch  .  You and some others in this forum have made me curious. Seems like a interesting watch.

Nice to read that. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

 

[Joy Hill]

And if you're a Buffy fan, James Marsters appears on Smallville (and even makes a reference to vampires).

I wonder what role Penny will play in Tyrion's development. She brings out both the best and the worst in him.

[Arya-Jon]

And if you're a Buffy fan, James Marsters appears on Smallville (and even makes a reference to vampires). I wonder what role Penny will play in Tyrion's development. She brings out both the best and the worst in him.

Thanks for the heads up  . I like vampire stories in general (dont judge me ) . But had not watched this one.

Yeah Penny bought some really good moments from Tyrion in ADWD. But then in AWOW released chapter it seemed to go downhill.

We should not underestimate how big a role Shae has played in Tyrion's story

My giant of Lannister, he heard. She is mocking me. He almost slapped her again. His head was pounding."I never meant to make you angry," Penny said "Forgive me. I'm frightened, is all." She touched his hand.Tyrion wrenched away from her. "I'm frightened." Those were the same words Shae had used. Her eyes were big as eggs, and I swallowed every bit of it. I knew what she was. I told Bronn to find a woman for me and he brought me Shae. His hands curled into fists, and Shae's face swam before him, grinning. Then the chain was tightening about her throat, the golden hands digging deep into her flesh as her own hands fluttered against his face with all the force of butterflies. If he'd had a chain to hand… if he'd had a crossbow, a dagger, anything, he would have… he might have… he…

 

Now he just cannot look at whores the same way he used to. Because whores directly remind him of Shae. It actually takes away one of his main sources of release from depression/sadnesss. The feeling that a whore loved him gave him some kind of happiness.

To some extent it may apply to any women who somehow somewhere remind him of Shae. That is a dangerous thing because I am sure a woman may say some word or do some action which is remotely similar to Shae accidentally. There are many many ways that can happen.

Its not necessarily Penny which is bringing out the worst in him, but simply what happened in his past and how he is reacting to it.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I love the characterization of Tyrion as an "anti-villain." That's a really great description. He sees himself as good, with noble goals, but he has so much internal baggage, especially around women and his father, that he so often ends up doing terrible stuff. He's nice to people he identifies with as long as they aren't in his way...otherwise watch out, world.

When you look closely at his first King's Landing chapters, the way he immediately goes on the offensive with Cercei and doesn't give a crap that she's the queen--just immediately starts trying to get her out of the way--it's potentially a very large cause for concern re: how he'll deal with Danaerys. He'll probably take about one day to decide that he would be a better ruler than her and start secretly undermining her. That's my prediction anyway.

[Arya-Jon]

I love the characterization of Tyrion as an "anti-villain." That's a really great description. He sees himself as good, with noble goals, but he has so much internal baggage, especially around women and his father, that he so often ends up doing terrible stuff. He's nice to people he identifies with as long as they aren't in his way...otherwise watch out, world.

When you look closely at his first King's Landing chapters, the way he immediately goes on the offensive with Cercei and doesn't give a crap that she's the queen--just immediately starts trying to get her out of the way--it's potentially a very large cause for concern re: how he'll deal with Danaerys. He'll probably take about one day to decide that he would be a better ruler than her and start secretly undermining her. That's my prediction anyway.

Thanks. I do feel for Tyrion though. I can understand all the albeism he has to cope up with. Mocked and underestimated solely for his looks. 

Due to his encounter with Tysha , where he was fooled into believing Tysha was a whore , he formed the wrong belief that only a whore could love him as why else would someone love a disgusting creature as him if not for gold. 

Plus he enjoyed the feeling of being wanted even if it was due to gold. So that was what started his fascination  and obession with whores as a means of release from sadness. Of course it made him look at women in a certain perspective which was not healthy, but then many men (especially Robert Baratheon) do the same.

So the encounter with Tysha was the first big turning point in his life which defined his attitude towards women and his creepy attitude towards them.

He from then on always wanted to be with whores, as he felt that was the only place where he could get love and appreciation. The encounter with Tysha somehow created a wrong belief system in him where he began expecting loyalty and love from a whore.  Which is possibly what defined his attitude to women.

Especially when Shae (in his mind) betrayed him, he was shattered as someone he expected love and appreciation from had let him down. Its a very hypocritical way of looking at things as Shae only behaved in a way a whore would, but somehow Tyrion had fooled himself to believe Shae was something more.

So that whole Shae episode was another big turning point for him.As now he hated whores. He hated anyone who reminded him even slightly of Shae (which means that even if he loves/likes a woman for some time, the moment she reminds him of Shae she is in danger)

As far his attitude towards people whom he considers his enemies is concerned, its totally defined by Tywin and the effect of nurture. Though he does have the uncanny abillity to be both amusing /witty / cynical as well as create trouble for his enemies (for instance with Cersei as you mentioned)

Think your prediction about him turning against Dany may happen, though. 

This quote where I think  Grrm  is hinting at mischief and Tyrion getting dragons

Well, I made my appearance on Sheep Island a few hours ago, cleverly disguised as Tyrion the Imp for a reading and Q&A session at Bantam’s virtual bookstore. Only this version of Tyrion could fly! Ah, if only the Tyrion in the books could fly, what mischief he will… ah… could… ah, never mind.

as well as Quaithe's quote  makes me suspect that

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Darkflame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them"

 

[FuzzyJAM]

People tend to be exceptionally generous in their reading of Tyrion.  He's altogether a pretty awful person in a lot of ways, but because he's witty and has some empathy and faces some unfair treatment people think well of him.  Ah well.  

I don't think it's a coincidence that the most genuinely misogynistic character in the series, and one that has already undermined the leadership of one queen, is heading to meet Queen Dany.  Both Dany and Tyrion are two highly reflective characters who totally lack in the area of self-criticism, so I essentially see their meeting as an opportunity for growth for both.  As of now, both are empathetic, which leaves open the possibility that they could be decent people, but are currently pretty villainous.  I don't think either will actually learn from the occasion (or at least, they won't learn the right lessons) and both will continue along their fairly dark paths.  But there's always hope.  

[Lord Wraith]

People tend to be exceptionally generous in their reading of Tyrion.  He's altogether a pretty awful person in a lot of ways, but because he's witty and has some empathy and faces some unfair treatment people think well of him.  Ah well.  

I don't think it's a coincidence that the most genuinely misogynistic character in the series, and one that has already undermined the leadership of one queen, is heading to meet Queen Dany.  Both Dany and Tyrion are two highly reflective characters who totally lack in the area of self-criticism, so I essentially see their meeting as an opportunity for growth for both.  As of now, both are empathetic, which leaves open the possibility that they could be decent people, but are currently pretty villainous.  I don't think either will actually learn from the occasion (or at least, they won't learn the right lessons) and both will continue along their fairly dark paths.  But there's always hope.  

Agreed. Also if you have been waiting the show and not doing rereads you tend to forget that he is continual growing darker as a character. The show whitewashes "Saint Tyrion" a great deal.

One my favorite parallels in the story is between Jaime and Tyrion.  Both a gray characters, with Tyrion starting light but becoming darker. Jaime starts as darker and is becoming more light.

[Arya-Jon]

Nice to read that. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

 

Watched the first episode. Was great !  . 

On Tyrion, I agree that the period around the purple wedding , was a major inflection point for him. Maybe the second of three., but a big one (possibly the biggest) , neverthless.

[Hodor the Articulate]

A bit OT, but I've always found "anti-villain" to be a pretty vague term. It seems to describe any villain that's even a hint more complex than "bwahaha! I want to take over the world 'cuz EVIL!", and often, people just use it for villains they really like, or heroic characters they detest.

Anywho, I wouldn't classify Tyrion is a villain of any sort. A villain is supposed to be the embodiment everything the hero opposes, but there isn't anybody in Tyrion narrative that takes the role of the hero. How could he be a villain, if there is no hero? Plus, I don't think his nihilism is permanent. It came out of his depression, which is lifting.

[Arya-Jon]

A bit OT, but I've always found "anti-villain" to be a pretty vague term. It seems to describe any villain that's even a hint more complex than "bwahaha! I want to take over the world 'cuz EVIL!", and often, people just use it for villains they really like, or heroic characters they detest.

Anywho, I wouldn't classify Tyrion is a villain of any sort. A villain is supposed to be the embodiment everything the hero opposes, but there isn't anybody in Tyrion narrative that takes the role of the hero. How could he be a villain, if there is no hero? Plus, I don't think his nihilism is permanent. It came out of his depression, which is lifting.

Well. I shall give you a quote.

On which “Game of Thrones” character he would play: “If I could magically clap my hands and become a different person, it would be cool to play Jon Snow, who is much more the classic hero. Everybody wants to be the classic hero, right?

So at least in Martin's mind there is a hero. I find Jon more like a anti hero, but if Martin feels he is more like a classic hero so be it.

I dont know from where you got "A villain is supposed to be the embodiment everything the hero opposes,". But that is a very old definition (made at a time when tv and books still relied on cliches) and not true at least in the modern world where people have come to realize the relative mundanness and unrealism of it. The definition you are talking about may fit the classic villain. And no a anti vilain is not always opposed to everything the hero does. As some people have mentioned in this thread, Lex Luthor was initially friends with Superman (even saved Superman) in the series "Smallville", but turned against him much later.  Some anti villains like Walter White were considered anti heroes initially, by many people. So they can change by the end of the series.

It almost always makes a better story if the villain starts out on the good side and is friendly ( helps out the hero on many occasions) with the hero initially before developing differences due to some conflict (mostly in his own life) and turning against him, compared to a cliche classic villain who is always baying for the hero's head. 

In one case the villain is an actual human, in the other case it is just unrealistic. 

His nihilism may not be permanent if he again finds love/ someone who is truly worth trusting (which is certainly not Penny as she reminds him of Shae in his recent Winds of Winter chapter). I suspect he may come to either love or at least admire the mother of dragons initially. At least in that portion of the story we may expect some good deeds from him. 

 But if he is let down again or is reminded of Shae from Dany's actions (in his mind not Dany's) , he wont really be able to use whoring as a means to overcome his depression (as that now reminds him of Shae)  He would do things for his amusement and I think that will be "Mischief". Nope, he wont just drink himself to death. 

Overall, I think Tyrion is capable of beoming a anti-hero if the author really wants to go that way. But I think he will be the anti villain. There are many many quotes which make me think that will be the final direction  he will go (I have mentioned them in my OP) , and some of these quotes have come from Tyrion's own mouth. For instance in Shae's trial, he says something along the lines of "I want to be the monster you all make me out to be". When he is drowning in River Rhoyne, he thinks, that he died in Kings Landing and now he is only a ghost. He will haunt the seven kingdoms. They did not love him living , let them dread him dead.

The thing is dragons are fire made flesh and fire is power . So this author quote is interesting of course.

Well, I made my appearance on Sheep Island a few hours ago, cleverly disguised as Tyrion the Imp for a reading and Q&A session at Bantam’s virtual bookstore. Only this version of Tyrion could fly! Ah, if only the Tyrion in the books could fly, what mischief he will… ah… could… ah, never mind. -GRRM, 2007

The author seems to be hinting at the possiblity of Tyrion as a dragon rider. Also, it seems to hint at some mischief he may do, once he gets a dragon. I found the way he ended this statement with "ah… could… ah, never mind." interesting as it makes it seem that he is actually giving us a spoiler. And this is 2007, a time when the Game of Thrones TV series was not released and the hype was not so high.

Anyways, whether or not you agree that he will be the anti villain by the end of the series, you will agree, that he will be a small man with a big shadow (and shadows symbolize power in Martin's narrative). 

[Arya-Jon]

People tend to be exceptionally generous in their reading of Tyrion.  He's altogether a pretty awful person in a lot of ways, but because he's witty and has some empathy and faces some unfair treatment people think well of him.  Ah well.  

 

I dont agree with "He's altogether a pretty awful person" as I think it may be a bit exessive. Because he has good in him and bad in him. Maybe more bad and there are some things he does which you just have to loath. 

But yep, I have noticed a tendencey to wash away or defend some of the actions because they have reasons. They are condemnable regardless of the reasons. 

[Woman of War]

 

 

Thank you for quoting my old post about the gargyoles

 

We can follow and understand Tyrion's reasoning, Tyrion in a way is Martin's guinea pig, a field study in how to go the dark  path. And he may be the guinea pig for a character's ability to save himself from darkness. Actually Tyrion, Jaime and Dany are the  POV's who walk the very thin line separating good and dark deeds - so far, anyone can become evil in the end. (Btw, good deeds don't wash out the bad? But do bad deeds wash out the good?)

But we should be careful to judge them  too much after their thoughts. This is a big interpretative temptation since we have Jaime's and first of all Tyrion's thoughts in surgical clarity.  In the end it will be the deeds they do or precisely don't do. Tyrion barely controls his rage driving him to kill Penny. But there is the fact that he does not kill her - so far at least. He may dream the omnipotent dream of those feeling powerless: to savage the world that wronged him. And yet he may save the world in the end.

Let's not forget that we have no POV's from other characters walking the thin line or from the big villains to compare them to Tyrion, those abysses (is that English???) are not presented to us. No POV tells us about the hatred towards happy boys Sandor may have felt when he chopped Mycah or the helpless rage of little Petyr when he lost that fight, followed by the wish to burn the world. Or the emotional void within Roose. All speculation, we don't know the depth of their darkness. And suddenly reading about Tyrion's inner wish to rape and strangle Cersei appears monstrous. We haven't seen the true darkness via POV. (Not counting the simple villains like Ramsay , Vargo Hoat or Victarion here, their POVs would not be enlighting)

Yes, Tyrion is Martin's guinea pig in so many ways. And closely observed objects of experimentation rarely end well. 

I do not think that the exact nature of a character's morality status, (anti-)hero or (anti-)villain, will be the biggest argument for the author  in shaping a character's fate. Though I guess Tyrion might get some kind of happy ending. Only he himself would  have to learn the hard way that this outcome is actually a positive one.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

I think he has too many villainous traits to be considered a true anti-villain.  An anti-villain should be someone who would fit well into the hero mold if he was the protagonist of the story - for instance, if the protagonist of A Game of Thrones was Jaime Lannister, then Ned Stark could be considered an anti-villain - or any story where the hero is on the run from the law and the guy hunting him is a good cop - for instance, Doakes in the TV series Dexter was a perfect anti-villain.  You rooted against him, and came to dislike him because our POV was Dexter, but the more you learned about him, the more you learned he was the epitome of the "Good Cop".

Tyrion is just a charismatic villain with some positive traits.

[Arya-Jon]

Thank you for quoting my old post about the gargyoles

 

We can follow and understand Tyrion's reasoning, Tyrion in a way is Martin's guinea pig, a field study in how to go the dark  path. And he may be the guinea pig for a character's ability to save himself from darkness. Actually Tyrion, Jaime and Dany are the  POV's who walk the very thin line separating good and dark deeds - so far, anyone can become evil in the end. (Btw, good deeds don't wash out the bad? But do bad deeds wash out the good?)

But we should be careful to judge them  too much after their thoughts. This is a big interpretative temptation since we have Jaime's and first of all Tyrion's thoughts in surgical clarity.  In the end it will be the deeds they do or precisely don't do. Tyrion barely controls his rage driving him to kill Penny. But there is the fact that he does not kill her - so far at least. He may dream the omnipotent dream of those feeling powerless: to savage the world that wronged him. And yet he may save the world in the end.

Let's not forget that we have no POV's from other characters walking the thin line or from the big villains to compare them to Tyrion, those abysses (is that English???) are not presented to us. No POV tells us about the hatred towards happy boys Sandor may have felt when he chopped Mycah or the helpless rage of little Petyr when he lost that fight, followed by the wish to burn the world. Or the emotional void within Roose. All speculation, we don't know the depth of their darkness. And suddenly reading about Tyrion's inner wish to rape and strangle Cersei appears monstrous. We haven't seen the true darkness via POV. (Not counting the simple villains like Ramsay , Vargo Hoat or Victarion here, their POVs would not be enlighting)

Yes, Tyrion is Martin's guinea pig in so many ways. And closely observed objects of experimentation rarely end well. 

I do not think that the exact nature of a character's morality status, (anti-)hero or (anti-)villain, will be the biggest argument for the author  in shaping a character's fate. Though I guess Tyrion might get some kind of happy ending. Only he himself would  have to learn the hard way that this outcome is actually a positive one.

Thanks. It is my pleasure. They were some nice points  

This quote of yours , I find curious and interesting. 

Only he himself would  have to learn the hard way that this outcome is actually a positive one.

A meeting with Tysha at the very very end, at a time when its too late?

I agree on the difference between thoughts and deeds.  So it is possible he may do a good deed despite thinking badly/wrongly.  Though the biggest danger sign around him is that he can no longer whore( as it now reminds him of Shae) to cope with his depression. Initially whoring would give him happiness and prove distracting and give the feelig of contentment. But now if he goes to a whore it will not make him more happy but more sad/depressed.  Tyrion;s two primary methods of ammusement were whoring and mischief . Now that you take one away what is left? Theoretically he can still be saved if he meets Tysha or truly falls in love again. But I dont think he would meet Tysha fast enough and even if he truly fall in love again, the person he falls in love with would not really reciprocate that much  as was in the orignal outline. For instance the person may be Dany instead of Arya and he would be helping her cause instead of the Stark cause, but the concept may still be the same. Jon ultimately will have his meeting with Dany.  

My reasoning for doubting that he would be on the right side in the end is foreshadowing and not only his thoughts. 

Some Grrm quotes which highly indicate mischief/being a villain, or some of Tyrions own quotes especially the one while he drowned in river Rhoyne. I quoted it in my OP. 

There are worse ways to die than drowning. And if truth be told, he had perished long ago, back in King’s Landing. It was only his revenant who remained, the small vengeful ghost who throttled Shae and put a cross-bow bolt through the great Lord Tywin’s bowels. No man would mourn the thing that he’d become. I’ll haunt the Seven Kingdoms, he thought, sinking deeper. They would not love me living, so let them dread me dead.

This is obviously just one quote. But there are many more, including what he said in Joffrey's court about I wish I was the monster you claim I am. Or even what Bobonno who plays Tyrion in the play said  "As I cannot be the hero,let  met he monster" While Bobbono's quote and even Tyrions in Joffey's quote can be explained away, the things he thinks while he was under the river Rhoyne cannot, at least to me. Especially the part about only being a revenant after what happened in King's landing. 

 There are of course some other quotes, including a strange dream Tyrion had among others. I have mentioned those quotes /dreams in my OP. 

To me all these quotes indicate to me that he is indeed Martin's guinea pig as you suggested and while he may appear to be redeemed for a lot of time, at some point he would break and unleash whatever mischief he needs to. Whether he will be redeemed after he does that mischief and devastation, I cannot say. But mostly it would be too littlt too late.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I don't think a meeting with Tysha would be a happy development for Tyrion.

From her perspective, he helped save her from rape, sorta-married her, lived with her while it suited him, then when his father made a false accusation Tyrion turned on her and participated in her gang rape. She is not going to be happy to see him. For all she knows the whole thing was a sick game played with her by bored highborns.

And Tyrion is not going to willingly accept that view. He still sees himself as the primary victim. Really this is all part of his biggest problem, which is his fundamental lack of empathy for women and commoners. Penny has begun opening his eyes on this account, but she is a dwarf like him, and even so the empathy came hard. I don't think Tyrion will ever be able to see that Tysha was *way more* of a victim in that situation, with far less power & privilege. Tyrion never once saw what a vulnerable position Shae was in; he saw her either as loving him or betraying him, never realizing she was actually a near-helpless teenager. It never occurred to him how violent and dismissive he was towards her, or how she might think or feel about anything at all. He never even once asked for her feelings or opinions on anything. Just told her what to do.

So I'm actually quite glad Tyrion is done with whores, but I doubt he will ever truly improve his nature, he's too invested in the idea of himself as a victim and never as a perpetrator of ills.

[Woman of War]

I think if Tyrion ever meets Tysha again - I am not sure of that - then it might indeed be too late and his biggest hope, reconciliation with her, basically returning to a state of mind he remembers as essential bliss, will of course not come true. His search for his personal Holy Grail will be futile.

As in so many, and far less tragical, relationships it is impossible to take up what has been lost, not only because the circumstances have changed but because we ourselves, in that case Tysha and Tyrion, are different people. At best the two might find closure but taking up their teen love.... well, I don't think so.

Tyrion's second desire, being Lord of CR, might not come true either. Actually I see a scenario where he would consciously give that up after maybe  having done some scheming and heavy stuff to get the Rock. He might hold the doorknob already, only to turn round, go down the stairs or fly away and do whatever  he has to, cursing himself for his loud mouth in volunteering to save the world. Or he might betray Dany by saving Jaime. In any case he would lose all influence, he might disappear in remote oblivion. Or he might die in a fit of heroism.

If Martin decides to grant Tyrion a remotely positive ending it might be getting love and recognition from where he never expected it.

On the other hand - don't we all expect that Dany will never sit the IT, that she might perish in fighting the Others? Or that Jon is too much cliché hero to be the shining prince who lives happily ever after? I mean,  he was dead, this is more smelly than shiny. So the  haut gout of self sacrifice for the greater good, independent of our heroes' moral status before, is around all three main heroes.

yes, there is a lot of forshadowing that Tyrion might get dark. Will he be Tywin writ small? Just like Dany might get mad, like Aerys. Or Jon being a different person after having been dead. I for example cannot imagine that Jon will get up from the dead, brush his teeth, take a shower and simply go on with life, like after a bad cold. The enormity of death is the final enigma for the human mind and Martin will know that.

so who of them is meant to be the winner who takes it all? None of them I guess.