De-Romancing the Rose: Bael, Politics, Kinslaying, and Spite

[Sly Wren]

DE-ROMANCING THE ROSE: BAEL, POLITICS, KINSLAYING, AND SPITE

"The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep. Clash, Jon VI

VERY SHORT VERSION: Ygritte’s Bael Tale fits the context Martin establishes in Game and continues through Dance. That context and the tale itself establish Bael’s motive as revenge against an insult. Striking a blow against a political enemy. And it all ends in kinslaying disaster: son kills father, woman jumps from tower, and a Stark is flayed by his retainer. Given this and the context of the novels, it seems likely Aerys, not Rhaegar, was behind the roses. Aerys had Bael-like motive. And a precedent of “taking” an “enemy’s” child—at Harrenhal. The tale’s kinslaying and tower suicide also potentially change other assumed aspects of the Targs’ role.

PART I: THE CONTEXT OF BAEL AND THE BLUE WINTER ROSE

A. A love story???

1. Ygritte tells Jon about Bael and the Blue Winter Rose in Clash. After we’ve seen blue roses associated closely with Lyanna and her death. And seen Ned remember Rhaegar’s giving Lyanna the rose crown.

2. Then, in Storm, we hear that Rhaegar sang. And Lyanna sniffled.

3. So—love, right?

B. “Love” ignores the context of Bael

1. Bael’s tale is NOT the story of a singer impressing a Stark maid into sniffles. It’s the tale of a future king-beyond-the-Wall reacting to an insult and sticking it to an enemy—the Stark in Winterfell.

2. Bael leaves the rose, and all of its attendant sexual symbolism, in place of the Stark maid. She’s now his “payment” for singing instead of the blue rose. Basically: “Oy! Wolfman! I’m screwing your no-longer-maiden daughter! And, to make absolutely sure you know it’s me, I left you a pretty, pretty flower!” Not exactly the height of romance.

3. Thus: the blue rose is NOT a sign of honor or love to the Stark maid. Or anyone else.

4. The tale is told in context of kings-beyond-the-Wall breaking their strength against the Wall or Winterfell.

5. It ends with a tragic warning against kinslaying—a big deal if wildlings and Starks share blood.

6. We first hear about Bael in context with the many kings-beyond-the-Wall who have invaded over the centuries and even millennia. How well they have fared compared to now. Not in a list of singers.

QUOTE:

"Wildlings have invaded the realm before." Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard."

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . . but the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight the Lannisters. The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew Mance Rayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart." Clash, Jon III

7. The tale as told by Ygritte is driven by Bael’s revenge against an insulting enemy. Bael as raider, deceiver, and king sharing blood with Starks. The tale warns against wars between kin.

8. Tale is told in context of Ygritte’s assertion that she and Jon—wildlings and Starks—are kin. After he’s asked if she knows anything about Benjen. The gods hate kinslayers.

QUOTE:

Jon could hear the sounds of [shadowcats'] feeding echoing off the rocks. It gave him and uneasy feeling. The warmth of the fire made him realize how bone-tired he was, but he dared not sleep. He had taken a captive, and it was on him to guard her. "Were they your kin?" he asked her quietly. "The two we killed?" 

 

"No more than you are."

"Me?" He frowned. "What do you mean?"

"You said you were the Bastard o' Winterfell."

"I am."

"Who was your mother?"

"Some woman. Most of them are." Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.

She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. "And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?"

"I never knew my mother. Or any such song."

"Bael the Bard made it," said Ygritte. "He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. All the free folk know his songs, but might be you don't sing them in the south."

"Winterfell's not in the south," Jon objected.

"Yes it is. Everything below the Wall's south to us."

He had never thought of it that way. "I suppose it's all in where you're standing."

"Aye," Ygritte agreed. "It always is."

"Tell me," Jon urged her. It would be hours before Qhorin came up, and a story would help keep him awake. "I want to hear this tale of yours."

"Might be you won't like it much."

"I'll hear it all the same."

"Brave black crow," she mocked. "Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider."

Stonesnake gave a snort. "A murderer, robber, and raper, is what you mean."

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak."

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'"

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain."

Jon had never heard this tale before. "Which Brandon was this supposed to be? Brandon the Builder lived in the Age of Heroes, thousands of years before Bael. There was Brandon the Burner and his father Brandon the Shipwright, but—"

"This was Brandon the Daughterless," Ygritte said sharply. "Would you hear the tale, or no?"

He scowled. "Go on."

"Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o' Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o' Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child's cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast."

"Bael had brought her back?"

"No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me."

"It never happened," Jon said.

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep. Clash, Jon VI.

Continued in next post 

[Sly Wren]

PART II: MARTIN ESTABLISHES THIS BASIC CONTEXT IN EVERY NOVEL—EVEN BEFORE WE GET TO THE SPECIFIC STORY: a political schemer and/or deceiver striking a blow against the Starks through a Stark child. And “righting” a “wrong.”

A. GAME OF THRONES: Mance as king beyond the Wall and a Threat to Starks

1. Ned specifically mentions the king beyond the Wall, Mance, and how he may have to deal with him.

2. Robb has already told Bran about Mance in Bran’s opening POV.

3. Both Bran and Cat are afraid of the idea of a king beyond the Wall.

4. When the wildlings catch Bran, Osha says they should take Bran (a Stark child) to Mance— “Benjen Stark’s own blood to hostage!” Game, Bran V.

5. Mormont worries about what Mance’s plans are with all the people he’s amassed.

6. No Stark maid yet—wait until Storm and Dance. But Mance is hitting the other notes very well.

B. GAME OF THRONES: Baelish as Plotter and Deceiver—Against Starks

1. Baelish’s name has no referent until Clash. But Martin sets Baelish up to fit the tale’s context.

2. Baelish has a strong grudge against a Brandon Stark. A wrong he wants righted. But he can’t attack Brandon—he’s long dead.

3. Baelish used to be a “friend” to Catelyn and her family

4. Now, Baelish pretends to still be a friend, even a friend to Cat’s husband and family. Then he betrays the Stark Who Really Should Have Just Stayed in Winterfell.

5. And he takes an unusual interest in Sansa—daughter of the Stark, who resembles the girl he loved, “stolen” by Brandon the Breathless. A Stark maid as his future pawn.

6. IN SHORT—in Game, both Mance and Baelish fit the context of Bael as plotter. Baelish uses his talents (vs. singing) to deceive and strike an enemy. And Mance is a threat to the Wall and Starks.

Martin sets up the Bael paradigm in Game: someone sticking it to a rival or enemy—specifically a Stark—for political means. Often a deceiver. Not just a singer. The story of Bael the Bard is part of a context we as readers are already set up for before we hear about Bael himself.

PART III: BY THE TIME WE GET TO THE BAEL STORY, MARTIN HAS SET THIS BASIC CONTEXT. A CONTEXT HE MAINTAINS: a political schemer and/or deceiver striking a blow against the Starks through a Stark maid.

A. CLASH OF KINGS: Mance as wannabe Bael—and all kings Beyond the Wall

1. Game established Mance as a king beyond the Wall, a potential threat, and a potential Stark problem.

2. In Clash, Bael the Bard is first referenced with Mance and talk of how kings beyond the Wall fail.

3. But Mance wants succeed as king and lead his people south.

4. Mance knew Bael’s song of the Blue Winter Rose before his desertion. He used to be a friend to the Wall and is now an enemy—like Baelish. Difference is—the Watch knows he’s an enemy.

QUOTE: “[Ygritte] even claimed we were kin. She told me a story . . ."

". . . of Bael the Bard and the rose of Winterfell. So Stonesnake told me. It happens I know the song. Mance would sing it of old, when he came back from a ranging. He had a passion for wildling music. Aye, and for their women as well." Clash, Jon VII

5. Bael is first mentioned by Jon and Mormont in context with Mance and kings beyond the Wall who ultimately failed, not as a singer.

QUOTE:

"Now, that is the question. How many wildlings are there? How many men of fighting age? No one knows with certainty. The Frostfangs are cruel, inhospitable, a wilderness of stone and ice. They will not long sustain any great number of people. I can see only one purpose in this gathering. Mance Rayder means to strike south, into the Seven Kingdoms."

"Wildlings have invaded the realm before." Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard."

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . . but the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight the Lannisters. The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew Mance Rayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart." Clash, Jon III

6. When Ygritte tells the tale of the blue winter rose, she’s telling an initial success story. A plot that stuck it to the Starks. A story she can use to “prove” that Starks and wildlings aren’t so different. All share the same blood. The song ends as a success, though the story’s ending is darker.

7. Thus, Bael=political and personal grudges ultimately ending in kinslaying disaster.

B. Qhorin flips this context and uses a Stark against the king-beyond-the-Wall. His own deception against a deceiver and enemy who used to be a friend. Like Baelish.

QUOTE:

"Then hear me. If we are taken, you will go over to them, as the wildling girl you captured once urged you. They may demand that you cut your cloak to ribbons, that you swear them an oath on your father's grave, that you curse your brothers and your Lord Commander. You must not balk, whatever is asked of you. Do as they bid you . . . but in your heart, remember who and what you are. Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them, for as long as it takes. And watch."

"For what?" Jon asked.

"Would that I knew," said Qhorin. "Your wolf saw their diggings in the valley of the Milkwater. What did they seek, in such a bleak and distant place? Did they find it? That is what you must learn, before you return to Lord Mormont and your brothers. That is the duty I lay on you, Jon Snow. Clash, Jon VIII

C. CLASH OF KINGS AND STORM OF SWORDS: Baelish and the Stark Maid

1. Baelish is “helping” Sansa. But he’s slightly undermined by her lack of interest and her belief in knights. And he doesn’t protect her from Joffrey’s abuse.

2. But, as we find out in Storm, he was behind Dontos. Using a fool playing a knight from a song to deceive the Stark maid.

3. Baelish does “rescue” Sansa. But only after framing her for regicide. Forcing her to hide with him.

4. He claims that by rights she should be his child. Oddly “righting” a perceived “wrong.” And making her his by naming her after his mother and claiming her as his bastard.

5. There is finally a singer in this part—but Marillion is a threat to Sansa the Roadside Rose in Blue. And he’s only ever used as a pawn.

6. Bottom line: His end game in Storm is unclear, but Baelish embraces the basic blueprint: deceptively stealing a Stark maid. A key piece in a personal grudge and a political game. A Stark maid he claims as both his daughter and looking so much like his intended lover. And the niece of the Brandon who “stole” his love.

D. STORM OF SWORDS: Mance and a Stark Maid

1. When we finally meet Mance, we discover that:

--Mance is a very effective king-beyond-the-Wall. Uniting all sorts of people.

--Osha was not wrong about his wanting a Stark.

--Mance is now planning to use a Stark maid (Jon) against the Wall and Winterfell.

--Mance has: climbed the Wall, gone down the road, sung for the king’s entourage, pretended to fit in with the guests, and entered Winterfell and eaten at the feast. He’s Bael 2.0, singing old songs.

QUOTE:

"The Wall can stop an army, but not a man alone. I took a lute and a bag of silver, scaled the ice near Long Barrow, walked a few leagues south of the New Gift, and bought a horse. All in all I made much better time than Robert, who was traveling with a ponderous great wheelhouse to keep his queen in comfort. A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company. Freeriders and hedge knights are always attaching themselves to royal processions, in hopes of finding service with the king, and my lute gained me easy acceptance." He laughed. "I know every bawdy song that's ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father's meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp . . . and made passing note of Lord Eddard's children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels."

"Bael the Bard," said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he'd almost killed her.

"Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?" Storm, Jon I

2. In short, Mance is hitting much of the Bael context established in Game and carried through Clash.

3. Even in defeat, Mance brings up Bael in context of an invading king.

QUOTE:

"Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . ." Storm, Jon X

Continued in next post

[Sly Wren]

PART IV: BUT WAIT!!! “THE MAID LOVED BAEL SO DEARLY”

A. Ygritte does say that when telling the story. But Ygritte ALSO says:

QUOTE: The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what's certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he'd plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael's blood in you, same as me." Clash, Jon VI

1. Ygritte slaps that disclaimer on the “love” story herself. Perhaps the maid loved Bael. Perhaps not. But Bael’s overall intent of sticking it to a Stark in Winterfell as a future king-beyond-the-Wall who “plucked a rose unasked?” No disclaimer.

2. Again: “Bael left the child in payment” for the Stark maid’s virginity. An enormous insult. Not romantic.

B. Ygritte brings up Bael with Jon in the cave—but leaves out most of the rest of the context.

1. She says she told him the story so that he, Jon, would know to take her. She wanted him to follow that one part of Bael’s tale—to “steal” her. A wildling practice not unique to the Bael story.

2. And he didn’t do it. She ends up seducing him.

QUOTE:

Jon sat up. "Ygritte, I never stole you."

"Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you'd have me then, or kill me, or maybe both, but you never did. And when I told you the tale o' Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose o' Winterfell, I thought you'd know to pluck me then for certain, but you didn't. You know nothing, Jon Snow." She gave him a shy smile. "You might be learning some, though."

The light was shifting all about her, Jon noticed suddenly. He looked around. "We had best go up. The torch is almost done." Storm, Jon III.

3. Bael is driven by vengeance in the tale. And striking back at an enemy over an insult. Ygritte just wants Jon. No taking from a family to strike a blow over a personal/political insult.

4. The rest of the tale: vengeance, deceit, grudges, striking a blow against the Starks, baby, killing the father, bringing back a trophy, and then a woman throwing herself from a tower in grief? Not there.

5. Just seduction, like other seductions in the novels—Cersei and Jaime, Jeyne Westerling and Robb, Val’s or Mel’s “flirting” with Jon, Arianne and Arys, etc. The love affair is not unique to Bael.

6. And the Stark maid’s “loving” Bael is given a caveat by Ygritte.

7. Bottom line: “Bael as love story” is not impossible. But it’s NOT the story’s focus. Nor the context of the books. Bael as only a lover stealing a maid leaves out LARGE swaths of the tale and its context.

PART V: STORM: AERYS, RHAEGAR, AND HOW ROSES FIT WITH TARGARYENS—AERYS, NOT RHAEGAR, HAS A RECORD OF “TAKING” AN “ENEMY’S” CHILD

A. Rose Crown=Insult

1. By book three, Martin has well established the Bael role as striking a Stark enemy, with deception.

2. When Ned remembers Rhaegar’s giving Lyanna the rose crown in Game, he never says why Rhaegar did so. Only that all smiles died. Now that we know what Bael’s blue roses mean—an insult and a blow against an enemy through a Stark maid—the Starks’ anger makes sense.

B. Aerys has the Bael-like motive.

1. But why would Rhaegar do this? We’ve had enough non-Robert-based perspective by this time to establish that Rhaegar was probably a decent guy in most eyes save Robert’s.

2. The answer is in Meera’s story—the King is wroth over a perceived insult/threat. Like Bael.

3. The Knight of the Laughing Tree and the King who was Wroth

QUOTE: "Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called. When his fallen foes sought to ransom horse and armor, the Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying, 'Teach your squires honor, that shall be ransom enough.' Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armor were returned. And so the little crannogman's prayer was answered . . . by the green men, or the old gods, or the children of the forest, who can say?"

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?"

"No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses each swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his. But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the king took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end."

"Oh." Bran thought about the tale awhile. "That was a good story. But it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty."

"She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story." Storm, Bran II

C. Flashback to a Dead Wolf Maid

1. So, how does the wroth king fit with the taking of the Stark wolf maid—after giving the roses?

2. Martin gave us that in Game. With Lady’s death. After Arya defends Mycah, echoing Lyanna’s defense of Howland. As shown in Feast, when Robert, the storm lord, won’t maim Arya, Cersei sends Jaime.

3. When Arya’s dragged before the king, Nymeria’s gone. Cersei knows that they have the wrong wolf in Lady. Doesn’t care. “We have a wolf.” A blow against Robert and Ned—through his child’s wolf.

4. Ned’s reaction, his hearing Sansa’s cries like Lyanna’s, his notice of Lady’s beauty and gentleness, and his insistence on taking her all the way back to Winterfell—Martin’s made it a VERY clear parallel with the death of Lyanna.

5. But only when we hear that the wolf maid’s defended the crannogman and that the King was wroth—only then can we understand a key part of what Martin was telling us with Lady’s death: that it’s tied to Lyanna’s defense of Howland. And that Lyanna, like Lady, dies in consequence of Targaryen spite against the Starks. A Bael motive—with the sadder ending including the death of the Stark maid.

D AERYS HAS DONE THIS BEFORE—taken an “enemy’s” child for spite. It’s the same spite Aerys showed at Harrenhal when he “took” Jaime from Tywin.

1. A pretense of honor—Kingsguard (or Queen of Love and Beauty???)—but actually “stealing” a child to insult an enemy.

QUOTE: King Aerys made a great show of Jaime's investiture. He said his vows before the king's pavilion, kneeling on the green grass in white armor while half the realm looked on. When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys had refused. "He'll win no glory here," the king had said. "He's mine now, not Tywin's. He'll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he'll obey."

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir. Storm, Jaime VI

2. Aerys previously insulted Tywin through Cersei—refusing to promise Rhaegar to her.

3. Aerys also leveraged the Martells by holding Elia and her children in King’s Landing.

4. Aerys has precedent of maliciously using family members against “enemies” or rivals.

5. Rhaegar? No such precedent.

PART VI: FEAST: BAELISH SCHEMES; CERSEI RISES AS MAD QUEEN

A. Baelish continues—and wants Winterfell

1. Baelish tortures Marillion into a false confession. He uses the singer to protect his plot. His plot: “giving” Winterfell to Sansa.

2. And if anyone actually thinks he’s doing this entirely for her and not in any way tied to his grudge against Brandon and Ned—I have some swampland to sell you. It’s a steal!!!

3. Baelish also continues to give Sansa lessons on how to “act”—how to deceive.

4. We many not know the whole game, but Baelish is using deceit and a singer to get what he wants.

B. Cersei embraces her inner Mad Queen with a Blue Bard

1. The Blue Bard is a counterfeit: blue hair, rose-scented, everything. He’s more symbol than person. We don’t learn his name for a while—just “The Blue Bard.” A big, blue, scented, singing symbol.

2. Margaery was initially seen as a potential counterfeit Lyanna—and she’s still a rose maid.

3. And Cersei, like Joff before her, is now a fake Targ who’s acting like a real one—this Mad Queen also loves wildfire and fears plots—and enjoys thwarting enemies. Cersei thinks wildfire is as beautiful as Joffrey. And more satisfying than any man or anything else.

4. Jaime himself calls his “sweet sister” “the deceiver.” Feast, Jaime VII

5. And Cersei LOVES sticking it to Margaery—Marg may be a false Lyanna, but Cersei’s hitting the high points of the Bael story. Given the tale’s ending—Cersei should be careful.

6. With all this play-acting, Aerys’ Bael-like intent remains: sticking it to an enemy by using a maid.

7. Cersei, like Baelish, tortures the Blue Bard into a false confession to impugn Margaery’s honor.

8. Why? Cersei hates the Tyrells. Suspects them of plotting, as Aerys suspected many, including Tywin.

9. Thus, in both Baelish and Cersei, the Bael figure uses deceit and a singer as leverage. In a plot involving a rose maid. Cersei, with her strong echoes of Aerys, does so to use a false Stark maid against her family. While Baelish uses a Stark maid to potentially claim Winterfell.

Continued in just one more post.

 

[Sly Wren]

PART VII: NOW WE HAVE IT: THE CONTEXT OF WHAT THE ROSES MEAN

A. Aerys was wroth. But Rhaegar delivered the roses and the insult. And thus the Starks’ reaction.

1. As the Blue Bard does for Cersei.

2. And as Marillion tells the lie that keeps Baelish’s plots going.

3. And what Mance hoped Jon would help him do against the Wall and the north—if Qhorin hadn’t realized Jon’s potential worth and used him against Mance instead.

4. That’s the meaning of the roses—an insult to and sticking it to and enemy. Like Bael, Mance, and Baelish. And Cersei and Aerys.

5. Spite against an enemy. “Taking” a child to spite the father over a perceived wrong. That’s what the roses mean. And Rhaegar was probably the delivery boy.

B. Lest you think it’s a fluke, the pattern continues in Dance.

1. Mance as Abel

2. In Dance, Mance embraces glamour. In return for his life, and as a favor to Jon for saving his son, Mance as Abel the Bard deceives his way into Winterfell, charms the un-Starks and steals a false Stark maid to save her and strike a blow against the un-Starks.

C. Only one other “bard” named in the books.

According to the Wiki, there are 22 named singers in the novels. But, do a word search in asearchoficeandfire.com and only four of those are called Bards: Bael, Mance as Abel, the Blue Bard, and Denzo D’han, Warrior Bard with the Windblown. Also named in Dance. We’ve not seen him with a Stark maid, real or false, but he is scheming with the Tattered Prince—he’s the Prince’s left hand.

PART VIII: THE SONG ENDS, BUT THE STORY’S END IS DARKER

What about the end of Ygritte’s tale? Bael’s death at the hand of his son/kin and the Stark maid’s throwing herself from a tower? What about the warning against kinslaying?

Spoiler

QUOTE: She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak."

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep. Clash, Jon VI

A. How would the slaying of the child’s father fit the story of Lyanna and Jon?

1. Barring “Rhaegar or Arthur or Ned or Robert is alive” theories; or that Howland or Mance or a yet unknown man ends up being Jon’s father—if none of those hold true, then Jon can’t kill his father.

2. Robert, not Ned nor any other Stark, killed Rhaegar.

3. And barring new information, no one went anywhere with Rhaegar’s head. Or any other artifacts.

4. BUT—Ned and Howland killed Arthur. Didn’t bring a head to Starfall. But did return Arthur’s  completely unique sword to Ashara. Who threw herself from the Palestone Sword.

5. So, the Stark in Winterfell killing his nephew’s father? His own child’s uncle?

B. What about the woman throwing herself from the tower in grief over the father’s death? The warning against kinslaying?

1. Lyanna didn’t throw herself from a tower. She died in a room that smelled of blood and roses.

2. So, who did throw herself from a tower after a Stark returned from a fight/battle with the artifact of a dead man? Ashara Dayne. From the Palestone Sword in Starfall.

3. Ashara’s tower death is brought up in Game, Storm, and Dance. She is mentioned as dead (cause omitted) in Clash, the same novel where Ygritte tells Bael’s tale—with its tower suicide.

4. And in Feast, the only novel without a direct mention of Ashara?

QUOTE:

Spoiler

He is a man of the Night's Watch, [Arya] thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall. Feast, Cat of the Canals.

5. Plus—Baelish throws Lysa from the tower after a fight over the stolen Stark maid. The daughter of the woman “stolen” from him by two successive Starks. One of whom Baelish helped get dead. 

6. Doesn’t bode well for Baelish’s calling Sansa his daughter if this story ends in the “father’s” death.

C. And the rest of the warning against kinslaying?

1. Ned dies after coming south again. Robb, Ned’s heir, is killed/betrayed by Bolton, famous for flaying. Perhaps the gods really do hate kinslaying. Even the kinslaying of in-laws.

2. Again—Ned didn’t kill Rhaegar. Or, barring new information, take anything of Rhaegar’s anywhere.

PART IX: BOTTOM LINE

1. Martin’s been telling us since Game: Bael the Bard and the Blue Winter Rose are not about love. They are about scheming and humiliating an enemy. Taking a Stark child to use against the Stark in Winterfell. The tale and context fit with Aerys as potential schemer, using Lyanna against the Starks.

2. Martin keeps the context steady as he builds the evidence; a context he establishes in Game and has maintained through Dance.

3. The roses were an insult against those who had “offended” Aerys. Sticking it to an enemy. Aerys took Jaime from Tywin at Harrenhal. And he was wroth over the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Barring more evidence, Rhaegar did not give the roses of his own accord. The roses were an insult from Aerys—with Bael-like intent.

4. In the current story, the Bael figure is not the lover. Nor is the singer leveraged against the Stark maid or her counterfeit for political reasons.

5. The books aren’t done. We have more context to come. But 5 books in and Martin’s held to the basics. Thus: the rose crown was an insult—delivered on behalf of Rhaegar’s father, the Mad King with Bael-like intent.

6. And the tale’s warning against such deception and grudges? It all ends in disaster, kinslaying, a trophy taken from the battlefield, a woman throwing herself from a tower, the death of the mother, and a Stark killed by a skin-flaying enemy.

7. This is the context we should keep an eye out for in future books.

The End

[Daendrew]

I smiled reading your title because it reminded me of the "new" posthumous work of Joseph Campbell on Arthurian legends which was his unpublished thesis before he dropped out of his PhD program as a 20-something. It is called Romance of the Grail: The Magic and Mystery of Arthurian Myth.

This is Romance of the Bael.

Manse wanting a Stark via Osha is a great catch.

He is literally a manse raider stealing fArya. 

I herby heroth nominate “Oy! Wolfman!" as the best line in this forum all week. 

[purple-eyes]

 

Impressive. 

Aerus did take Jaime from Tywin at HH. Took the flower of westerland? 

Though crowning stark daughter did not look like an insult. 

I am wondering if bael loved this stark daughter. 

It looks like she loved him. 

He took her to return the spite of lord stark and after one year, he simply abandoned her and the child! 

Based on the following story, it seems he never contacted them or visited them. 

Is this a wildling style? 

[Sly Wren]

I smiled reading your title because it reminded me of the "new" posthumous work of Joseph Campbell on Arthurian legends which was his unpublished thesis before he dropped out of his PhD program as a 20-something. It is called Romance of the Grail: The Magic and Mystery of Arthurian Myth.

This is Romance of the Bael.

HA!!!

I hadn't heard about the "new" Campbell work. Have you had a chance to peruse it?

Manse wanting a Stark via Osha is a great catch.

He is literally a manse raider stealing fArya. 

Yup! I don't know if Mance actually asked wildings to get him a Stark. But he does seem to want one when Jon shows up. Seems like Osha was right that Mance would want Bran.

I herby heroth nominate “Oy! Wolfman!" as the best line in this forum all week. 

I thank you, ser.

[Sly Wren]

 

Impressive. 

Aerus did take Jaime from Tywin at HH. Took the flower of westerland? 

Though crowning stark daughter did not look like an insult. 

1. 

2. Jaime's being appointed to the Kingsguard was traditionally and overtly an honor. But Tywin knew what it really meant. An insult and slight to Tywin. And Jame learned it, too. 

So, yes, the Queen of Love and Beauty should be an honor. But the Starks clearly did not see it that way.

I am wondering if bael loved this stark daughter. 

It looks like she loved him. 

Maybe--but Ygritte does put a disclaimer on the Stark maid loving Bael. When the maid throws herself from the tower, the text only says "in grief." So, grief over Bael's death? Grief over the fact that her son killed his father and is now a kinslayer? Text seems to leave it open.

He took her to return the spite of lord stark and after one year, he simply abandoned her and the child! 

Based on the following story, it seems he never contacted them or visited them. 

Is this a wildling style? 

No idea if this is a wildling practice or not. I can't think of anything in the text.

But yes--Bael seems to have delivered his insult and then left. His work was done. So, leaving the child for Lord Stark to deal with and constantly be reminded of--that would fit the spite motive.

[purple-eyes]

1. 

2. Jaime's being appointed to the Kingsguard was traditionally and overtly an honor. But Tywin knew what it really meant. An insult and slight to Tywin. And Jame learned it, too. 

So, yes, the Queen of Love and Beauty should be an honor. But the Starks clearly did not see it that way.

Maybe--but Ygritte does put a disclaimer on the Stark maid loving Bael. When the maid throws herself from the tower, the text only says "in grief." So, grief over Bael's death? Grief over the fact that her son killed his father and is now a kinslayer? Text seems to leave it open.

No idea if this is a wildling practice or not. I can't think of anything in the text.

But yes--Bael seems to have delivered his insult and then left. His work was done. So, leaving the child for Lord Stark to deal with and constantly be reminded of--that would fit the spite motive.

kind of mean though. 

Lord stark only called him a craven then he cheated on him, stole his daughter, gave her a baby, put her in the crypt without information for one year and then abandoned them! 

 

 

[Daendrew]

HA!!!

I hadn't heard about the "new" Campbell work. Have you had a chance to peruse it?

Yup! I don't know if Mance actually asked wildings to get him a Stark. But he does seem to want one when Jon shows up. Seems like Osha was right that Mance would want Bran.

I thank you, ser.

It is on my shelf. Haven't gone through it yet. I have every single book Campbell has written. GRRM recommended Gene Wolfe so I am reading his work now. Really good thus far.

[Sly Wren]

kind of mean though. 

Lord stark only called him a craven then he cheated on him, stole his daughter, gave her a baby, put her in the crypt without information for one year and then abandoned them! 

 

 

Extremely mean--spiteful, pointless, and ultimately ended up in kinslaying, a suicide by tower, and a Stark's being flayed. 

Stonesnake laughs when Ygritte calls Bael a great raider. Says Bael was a thief and a raper. Seems like Stonesnake might have gotten the measure of Bael better than Ygritte did.

But it does fit with my "Aerys was behind the roses and possibly the kidnapping" scenario. Aerys was spiteful. Given to cruel, pointless viciousness. 

[Sly Wren]

It is on my shelf. Haven't gone through it yet. I have every single book Campbell has written. GRRM recommended Gene Wolfe so I am reading his work now. Really good thus far.

I've only read Hero with A Thousand Faces--a while ago. Will have to have a look at the Arthurian work.

Don't know Wolfe's work--but you's recommend it? 

[purple-eyes]

Extremely mean--spiteful, pointless, and ultimately ended up in kinslaying, a suicide by tower, and a Stark's being flayed. 

Stonesnake laughs when Ygritte calls Bael a great raider. Says Bael was a thief and a raper. Seems like Stonesnake might have gotten the measure of Bael better than Ygritte did.

But it does fit with my "Aerys was behind the roses and possibly the kidnapping" scenario. Aerys was spiteful. Given to cruel, pointless viciousness. 

true. 

It also seems to be a very efficient way to wipe out house stark by taking lyanna away. 

[FuzzyJAM]

So how did Aerys and the Starks and everyone else there know that the rose crown symbolised insult while Rhaegar didn't?  Or was Rhaegar complicit and also trying to insult Lyanna and her family?  And where does this symbol even come from, which everyone knew at the tourney, but we've never heard of since?  

[purple-eyes]

So how did Aerys and the Starks and everyone else there know that the rose crown symbolised insult while Rhaegar didn't?  Or was Rhaegar complicit and also trying to insult Lyanna and her family?  And where does this symbol even come from, which everyone knew at the tourney, but we've never heard of since?  

Not very sure about political reasons, 

But to be honest, a married man gave rose crown publicly to a noble maiden daughter who was betrothed to another man, this is more like an insult than a respect and honor. 

People may question this woman's reputation and think prince had interest in her. 

 

 

[IceFire125]

This totally ignore the political divide between Aerys' side and Rhaegar's side that was brought up by Pycell's letter to the Citadel, to which the situation was closely approaching the intensity similar to the lead up to the Dance.

Yes, Aerys may have appointed Rhaegar to investigate tKotLT, however, I don't think Aerys, who remained suspicious of Rhaegar, would leave it just like that.  I think he would send another party to go after the knight, independent of and without even telling Rhaegar, after he gave his report that he only found the knight's shield and armor.  This falls in line with the possibility that Lyanna may have been running away from Aerys' men and Varys' spies, not just from her wedding situation with Robert (Alys was also being chased by Cregan, four other men and a pack of hounds), to which Rhaegar had to step in and help her "not 10 leagues from Harrenhal".

This also ignore the underlying tone of what Rhaegar said to Jaime, that upon his return from the Trident (convinced that he will win the battle there, thus the war--royal army outnumbered the rebels heavily), that he "would call a Council. Changes will be made." 

[purple-eyes]

This totally ignore the political divide between Aerys' side and Rhaegar's side that was brought up by Pycell's letter to the Citadel, to which the situation was closely approaching the intensity similar to the lead up to the Dance.

Yes, Aerys may have appointed Rhaegar to investigate tKotLT, however, I don't think Aerys, who remained suspicious of Rhaegar, would leave it just like that.  I think he would send another party to go after the knight, independent of and without even telling Rhaegar, after he gave his report that he only found the knight's shield and armor.  This falls in line with the possibility that Lyanna may have been running away from Aerys' men and Varys' spies, not just from her wedding situation with Robert (Alys was also being chased by Cregan, four other men and a pack of hounds), to which Rhaegar had to step in and help her "not 10 leagues from Harrenhal".

This also ignore the underlying tone of what Rhaegar said to Jaime, that upon his return from the Trident (convinced that he will win the battle there, thus the war--royal army outnumbered the rebels heavily), that he "would call a Council. Changes will be made." 

he only brought back shield, not armor. 

 

I think if lyanna was hunted by Aerys, she would stay with her family. 

Even she did not want to stay with them, Brandon and Rickard would know she was in danger.  

When she was taken, Brandon was on his way to pick up rickard's wedding party, this does not sound like their precious daughter was being hunted by the king. 

and if lyanna was hunted by Aerys, why would Brandon run to KL to shout rhaegar to die? 

Pit does not make any sense. 

[Sly Wren]

true. 

It also seems to be a very efficient way to wipe out house stark by taking lyanna away. 

Or at least a way of swatting down someone he sees as an upstart. 

Aerys actively spites Tywin over both Cersei as potential bride for Rhaegar and Jaime as Kingsguard. Which is stupid and short-sighted. Insulting the Starks and/or taking Lyanna--also short-sighted and stupid.

So how did Aerys and the Starks and everyone else there know that the rose crown symbolised insult while Rhaegar didn't?  Or was Rhaegar complicit and also trying to insult Lyanna and her family?  And where does this symbol even come from, which everyone knew at the tourney, but we've never heard of since?  

Can't see how the text says Aerys and others did know anything about the Bael symbolism of the roses. But the Starks definitely see it as an insult. And, given that Jaime's "honor" was actually an insult--am thinking the Starks' knew something about what Aerys was doing. What all the backstory is--I can't see how we have that yet. Meera stops her tale before getting to the crowning. But the Starks' reaction fits the context of Ygritte's tale.

As for Rhaegar--I'm theorizing that giving the roses was not his idea. He was delivering Aerys' "message" to the Starks. Can't see where the text gives us any Bael-like intent on Rhaegar's part. Only on Aerys'.

In Feast, where Cersei echoes Aerys very strongly and Baelish is, well, Bael-ish--in that novel, both Cersei and Baelish force the Blue Bard and Marillion (respectively) to lie to further their political aims.

If the World book is right, Aerys came to Harrenhal because he suspected Rhaegar of plotting. If so, that must have been an unpleasant father-son conversation. We know Aerys insulted Tywin by "taking" Jaime at Harrenhal. We know the Starks saw the roses as an insult. Seems more likely Aerys would be behind the insult than Rhaegar. And Rhaegar, as crown prince, obeyed his father. Or was arm-twisted into it (rather like Marillion and the Blue Bard). Maybe.

[Sly Wren]

This totally ignore the political divide between Aerys' side and Rhaegar's side that was brought up by Pycell's letter to the Citadel, to which the situation was closely approaching the intensity similar to the lead up to the Dance.

Yes, Aerys may have appointed Rhaegar to investigate tKotLT, however, I don't think Aerys, who remained suspicious of Rhaegar, would leave it just like that.  I think he would send another party to go after the knight, independent of and without even telling Rhaegar, after he gave his report that he only found the knight's shield and armor.  This falls in line with the possibility that Lyanna may have been running away from Aerys' men and Varys' spies, not just from her wedding situation with Robert (Alys was also being chased by Cregan, four other men and a pack of hounds), to which Rhaegar had to step in and help her "not 10 leagues from Harrenhal".

Possible that Rhaegar helped her. But also possible that Rhaegar took her on Aerys' orders. Cat takes Tyrion, after calling on some of her father's bannermen, in an Inn in the Riverlands, not many leagues from Harrenhal. Rhaegar's daddy has all of the bannermen.

And the situation with Cat and Tyrion goes sideways--with Cat realizing she needs to protect Tyrion, even as she hates him. And he protects her, etc. And eventually leaves with the help of a good fighter. Am thinking this could be an echo of what happened with Rhaegar and Lyanna. Though, given how Martin does not like to run his parallels straight, nor keep his echoes really clear--seems like there are multiple options here.

This also ignore the underlying tone of what Rhaegar said to Jaime, that upon his return from the Trident (convinced that he will win the battle there, thus the war--royal army outnumbered the rebels heavily), that he "would call a Council. Changes will be made." 

Errrm--are you saying the OP ignores this tone? Because that was not my intent. I do think Rhaegar wanted changes made before and after Harrenhal. If he got caught up in Aerys' plots, could see how Rhaegar would want even more to make changes.

So--not sure how the ideas in the OP counter Rhaegar as potential reformer. . . . 

[IceFire125]

Errrm--are you saying the OP ignores this tone? Because that was not my intent. I do think Rhaegar wanted changes made before and after Harrenhal. If he got caught up in Aerys' plots, could see how Rhaegar would want even more to make changes.

So--not sure how the ideas in the OP counter Rhaegar as potential reformer. . . . 

Because in the OP, Rhaegar is painted as part of a pawn to do the bidding, the errand boy.

However, we read in the story that Rhaegar does not really see eye-to-eye with his Father.  There were deep divisions already before Harrenhal, before the placing of the laurels on Lyanna's lap, not withstanding Aerys' madness, but it was enough to drive a wedge where the atmosphere in the Red Keep was similar to the time during the Dance. 

Varys also played the role of politicking like Littlefinger, but yet was not mentioned as part of the significant role of influencing the king in the OP.