De-Romancing the Rose: Bael, Politics, Kinslaying, and Spite

[A Ghost of Someone]

not that this has mutch to do with the op's point of view. I do not trust Mance Rayder and he may not exactly be Jon's friend in this. He is being blackmailed sort of speak and I would not put it past him to team up with Ramsay in sending a certain letter.

[WitteRaaf]

I think (whether it was aerys' or rhaegars') that the plan went to pot.  I think Ned was supposed to be dead. Rhaegar had to show himself to fight a war led by two men who weren't supposed to be there.  Would he have kept at it?   My hunch is yes, only he wouldn't have had to hide.   I'm not sure about him wanting a female.... You think he wanted to recreate aegon and his sisters?   I find that poetic, but I have a feeling that the targs were really after winterfell and didn't want the war

[purple-eyes]

 

I think (whether it was aerys' or rhaegars') that the plan went to pot.  I think Ned was supposed to be dead. Rhaegar had to show himself to fight a war led by two men who weren't supposed to be there.  Would he have kept at it?   My hunch is yes, only he wouldn't have had to hide.   I'm not sure about him wanting a female.... You think he wanted to recreate aegon and his sisters?   I find that poetic, but I have a feeling that the targs were really after winterfell and didn't want the war

winterfell is already theirs. Stark was loyal for 300 years already. 

But I agree maybe rhaegar wanted to kill Ned and benjen to let his child with Lyanna to inherit winterfell. 

By this way, Targ made winterfell as a branch. 

[Sly Wren]

Bael and the stark girl hid for a year

rhaegar came late to the war

time was needed to ensure a male child.  Pregnancy, I think, would be enough for spiteful purposes.  I think the plan went beyond that and that baels year and rhaegars missing in action were indicative of being sure the child was male

Possible. But I keep coming back to the fact that the "relationship" between Bael and the Maid is the one thing Ygritte slaps a disclaimer on. 

So, there's what actually happened with Bael, which we don't have. And there's Bael's song that he wrote about what he did (with his own spin)--which we don't have.

All we have is Ygritte's telling of the story. Complete with her editorialization. And her insistence on focusing Jon (and therefore us) on what really matters. And she doesn't think what happened in that crypt matters beyond the end result of the baby.

She's a lot like Nan in this: 

"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room." Storm, Bran IV.

 

Like Nan, Ygritte's telling what matters most. Chucking any other gossip. And insisting on adding in the "real" end to the tale, vs. Bael's idealized version of his own exploits and their consequences.

 

So, if Ygritte is telling us what does and doesn't matter, makes it hard to extrapolate Rhaegar's motive towards having a baby. All the story gives us is the motive of Bael: teaching an enemy a lesson. And using the Stark maid to do it.

 

We do have the echo of other Stark maids--Sansa with Baelish. Who's taken to an unnamed tower that Bael-ish calls the Drearfort. And hidden under a name and disguise (as is Arya). Then hidden in plain sight under her disguise in a castle with white towers and a woman who is eventually thrown to her death from a tower . . . 

 

ETA: And, so far in the current story, the Stark maids are not attracted to their captors/abductors. Are not romantically or sexually connected to them. . .no babies, male or otherwise in the offing.

[Sly Wren]

not that this has mutch to do with the op's point of view. I do not trust Mance Rayder and he may not exactly be Jon's friend in this. He is being blackmailed sort of speak and I would not put it past him to team up with Ramsay in sending a certain letter.

Fits the OP in my opinion --so far, Qhorin used Jon against Mance (reverse of Bael the Bard). And then Jon and Mance reenacted a twisted version of Bael (Abel) with the rescue of fake Arya.

But Mance has never been the trickster against the Stark. In his glamour, he just attacks Jon. But the deceiver? That letter would fit the bill very nicely.

And, still, in the current story's iterations of Bael (Mance and Baelish), neither has seduced the Stark maid. Or produced a child. The Stark maids love/are attracted to others: warriors and sworn fighters. Not tricksters.

[WitteRaaf]

 

winterfell is already theirs. Stark was loyal for 300 years already. 

But I agree maybe rhaegar wanted to kill Ned and benjen to let his child with Lyanna to inherit winterfell. 

By this way, Targ made winterfell as a branch. 

by winterfell I mean it's secrets, it's power so too speak, and its position. To make it a branch.... Yes.   It seems the north yielded no questions asked,  and I can see no record of a targ stark Union.  By all accounts the north remains aloof from the rest of the kingdom and once word got around about the powerful alliances being formed by the various fostering/marriages I can see aerys the unstable planning this.  Am I sold 100%?   No.   There's a lot of ifs.   Maybe Rickard and Brandon weren't meant to traipse off to KL.  maybe the fact that they dared is the only reason to call for the death of Robert and Ned.  Then again from our perspective looking back, it's the only thing that makes sense to me

[A Ghost of Someone]

Fits the OP in my opinion --so far, Qhorin used Jon against Mance (reverse of Bael the Bard). And then Jon and Mance reenacted a twisted version of Bael (Abel) with the rescue of fake Arya.

But Mance has never been the trickster against the Stark. In his glamour, he just attacks Jon. But the deceiver? That letter would fit the bill very nicely.

And, still, in the current story's iterations of Bael (Mance and Baelish), neither has seduced the Stark maid. Or produced a child. The Stark maids love/are attracted to others: warriors and sworn fighters. Not tricksters.

Littlefinger/Baelish is working hard on Sansa. Sooner or later, he will try and make a move, whether he succeeds or not remains to be seen. I think Mance though, would like to get Winterfell itself for him and his wildings that past the wall. I do not like him, nor do I trust him.

[WitteRaaf]

Fits the OP in my opinion --so far, Qhorin used Jon against Mance (reverse of Bael the Bard). And then Jon and Mance reenacted a twisted version of Bael (Abel) with the rescue of fake Arya.

But Mance has never been the trickster against the Stark. In his glamour, he just attacks Jon. But the deceiver? That letter would fit the bill very nicely.

And, still, in the current story's iterations of Bael (Mance and Baelish), neither has seduced the Stark maid. Or produced a child. The Stark maids love/are attracted to others: warriors and sworn fighters. Not tricksters.

The thing with echoes is that each one that comes back to you is a little less distinct. 

Doesnt really support my own view, but there it is. 

Also any bard that can scale the wall, steal a maid and then rise to the position of KBTW is bound to be a warrior. Rhaegar as well didn't just sing and play the harp. 

 

[Sly Wren]

Littlefinger/Baelish is working hard on Sansa. Sooner or later, he will try and make a move, whether he succeeds or not remains to be seen.

 Though, given that the Bael Tale ends with the Stark child killing the Bael father--I don't think that bodes well for Bael-ish's chance at success.

I think Mance though, would like to get Winterfell itself for him and his wildings that past the wall. I do not like him, nor do I trust him.

Amen on the bolded. He may have united his people and gotten them to a place where Jon would help, but I think he still wants to be king. 

[Sly Wren]

The thing with echoes is that each one that comes back to you is a little less distinct.

Yup! As I said in the OP, the books aren't done. So my throwing down too hard on what the echoes mean is a risk. But, so far at least, it seems to be holding in all five books.

Doesnt really support my own view, but there it is. 

Also any bard that can scale the wall, steal a maid and then rise to the position of KBTW is bound to be a warrior. Rhaegar as well didn't just sing and play the harp. 

Agreed--but, again, Bael in the Tale is not just a warrior or a bard. He's the deceiver who stuck it to an enemy. But stealing the enemy's child through deception. That's how he pulled this off. Not by "warrior-ing."

And the stolen Stark maids, especially Sansa and Arya, aren't attracted to such sneaks. They aren't falling for those who steal them. They fall for the warriors per se. Not singers (either Marillion or Daeron) who bring up echoes of the Bael Tale in their songs or advances. Not princes or royals. But sworn brothers. Warriors. 

So far, that's holding in the novels--but is obviously subject to change.

[WitteRaaf]

Maybe not Sansa at first but thankfully she has grown

 

 

 

goodnight westeros

[A Ghost of Someone]

 Though, given that the Bael Tale ends with the Stark child killing the Bael father--I don't think that bodes well for Bael-ish's chance at success.

Amen on the bolded. He may have united his people and gotten them to a place where Jon would help, but I think he still wants to be king. 

Mance is an Oathbreaker and for selfish reasons, not like Jon wanted to help his family. Mance takes too much pride in his acquired postion to be trusted. I think he would turn on Jon in a hearbeat and considering Stannis's personaltiy, he, Mance would stab him in the back too.

[Sly Wren]

Maybe not Sansa at first but thankfully she has grown

Amen.

Mance is an Oathbreaker and for selfish reasons, not like Jon wanted to help his family. Mance takes too much pride in his acquired postion to be trusted. I think he would turn on Jon in a hearbeat and considering Stannis's personaltiy, he, Mance would stab him in the back too.

While I do think Mance did want to save his "people" by getting them south, I completely agree on the bolded.

He compares himself to other kings beyond the Wall. He just can't fight the Others--that's why he's willing to give in.

"Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . ."

"But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?"

Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days." Storm, Jon X

Mance isn't "penitent." He's bitter about not being able to fight the Others. 

And when he's defeated, he attacks Jon as Rattleshirt. Really seems like there's plenty of animosity there. So, yes,  I don't think we've seen the last of Mance's Bael parallels--as the deceiver trying to stick it to a Stark.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Amen.

While I do think Mance did want to save his "people" by getting them south, I completely agree on the bolded.

He compares himself to other kings beyond the Wall. He just can't fight the Others--that's why he's willing to give in.

"Nor me." There was anger in that admission, and bitterness too deep for words. "Raymun Redbeard, Bael the Bard, Gendel and Gorne, the Horned Lord, they all came south to conquer, but I've come with my tail between my legs to hide behind your Wall." He touched the horn again. "If I sound the Horn of Winter, the Wall will fall. Or so the songs would have me believe. There are those among my people who want nothing more . . ."

"But once the Wall is fallen," Dalla said, "what will stop the Others?"

Mance gave her a fond smile. "It's a wise woman I've found. A true queen." He turned back to Jon. "Go back and tell them to open their gate and let us pass. If they do, I will give them the horn, and the Wall will stand until the end of days." Storm, Jon X

Mance isn't "penitent." He's bitter about not being able to fight the Others. 

And when he's defeated, he attacks Jon as Rattleshirt. Really seems like there's plenty of animosity there. So, yes,  I don't think we've seen the last of Mance's Bael parallels--as the deceiver trying to stick it to a Stark.

Mance needs people to make him their king. If he and they stay above the Wall, soon, there will be no people to claim him as their King. He relishes the position and I think his pride makes him vengeful. I do not like him anywhere near Winterfell as I think if he could take it for himself and his followers, he would, to cement his own legend.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Do you all remember Bran's dream of a naked, pregnant woman coming out of the pond in front of the Winterfell Heart tree? She was praying to the old Gods to have a son that will avenge her. I wonder, just wonder if that was Mance's mother and she may have been some lowborn or mistress to a prior lord Stark who was spurned for a more political match and she had Mance. I dunno? Well, when the pink letter is signed it does say Ramsay Bolton but then it says "Trueborn heir of Winterfell". Ramsay would not say something like that and his hates the word "bastard", so, if Mance thought he had some claim to Winterfell, might he be actually alive and well and working with Ramsay, temporarily, etc?

[bemused]

Mance is an Oathbreaker and for selfish reasons, not like Jon wanted to help his family. Mance takes too much pride in his acquired postion to be trusted. I think he would turn on Jon in a hearbeat and considering Stannis's personaltiy, he, Mance would stab him in the back too.

I wouldn't agree that Jon broke his oath, but that's another topic...

Moving on, generally..

Wow.. I haven't checked in here for a few days (busy putting up a thread of my own)  I had some other points, to make.. but I'll have to get back to those because, (wow).. I have to disagree with some of the Mance speculation, here.

Just think back to Mance and Jon's first conversation.. neither one of them tells the other the whole truth about why they're where they are. As a bastard, Jon truly did feel a bit of an outsider, but where he was seated at the feast in WF was not his normal position. He normally ate with his "siblings". (Rickon goes to him when the party for the high table enters) ..There's some truth in what he says, but it's not really the reason he's there... 

There is indubitably truth in the story of Mance's cloak, but it can't be the whole story.. the cloak's symbolism, for a thinking man like Mance, must stretch beyond a personal desire for freedom and refusal to be told what to wear, to a deeper consideration of freedoms and rules and  to what degree they should be accepted or eschewed.

Qhorin says Mance was "only going home" ... but like Theon, Mance spent at least half of his formative years in a second home .. he has reasons to admire (or dislike) aspects of both "homes" and will have life lessons learned from each of them. It stands to reason he would feel conflicted, now and then... And it stands to reason that he would come to see the NW was fighting the wrong enemy long before Mormont, or Jon. ...He knows why the Wall was originally built (to stop the Others), but he must empathise with Ygritte's claim that the Wall was built to keep wildlings out. He knows the free folk became the NW's enemy by default, in the absence of the Others. It took him years to become KBtW, a leader all the Free Folk would follow, and the Others were not active, or only minimally active, during most of that time. So just when he gains the ability to better the lives of his people, they turn up to complicate matters. Even if he wins through to the other side of the Wall ,he knows how weak the NW is, and what the consequences likely will be .. of course he's bitter.

I think Mance is "a true King" (as meant by Jon), putting the welfare of his people first (above personal gains or glory). 

When he spars with Jon as Rattleshirt he's not "attacking " Jon. He knows Jon had argued that Stannis should let him live. He knows that if Stannis had handed him over to the NW, it would have been difficult for Jon (as a very new LC) to avoid executing him. He's safer as Stannis' captive. ...He had tried to give Jon verbal clues to his identity, when Stannis gave "Rattleshirt" to Jon to use...
“I’ll range for you, bastard,” Rattleshirt declared. “I’ll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty
songs, as you prefer. I’ll even fight for you. Just don’t ask me to wear your cloak.”... "bastard" instead of "crow".. "sing you pretty songs" .. and especially "just don't ask me to wear your cloak" , are all big clues.

Mance tries again, when as "Rattleshirt" , he spars with Jon. Jon realises that his opponent seems taller, more agile, quicker than he ought to be. He doesn't pick up on the fact that "Rattleshirt" can suddenly fight like a trained member of the NW, or understand the full implications when "Rattleshirt" doesn't try to use the dagger on his belt. If the real Rattleshirt had a dagger in the same situation Jon should know he would use it (which Mance also hints at).

Jon doesn't get it.. He has no idea glamours are real, and may not even have heard of such things, but these are all clues Mance is trying to give him.

I think Mance has accepted that his time as leader of the Free Folk is done. My bet is that as he and Dalla once led them, Mance now thinks Jon (and Val) are the ones who should take up the task. Why did Jon send Val to find Tormund, instead of any other captive wildling? It's possible that the idea came to him in some "sage counsel" from Mance, before he left.

If Mance survives, I think he will become subordinate to Jon in the eyes of the Free Folk, as Tormund and others became subordinate to Mance.

Mance lives at Jon's mercy. Jon got more wildlings through the gate than Mance managed to, and without having to bend the knee to Stannis, or even pretend to take up a new God ...Jon has taken Val (and Mance's son) out of the King's Tower and under his personal protection, and now, because of the revelations in the pink letter, the Free Folk understand that Mance has been set to do Jon's bidding. Jon has obviously risen above Mance.

I see no reason why Mance would have ceased to be motivated by the common good and since Jon is similarly motivated, I think they will remain allies.

Deception is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it is (e.g. Littlefinger), sometimes it's simply necessary to survive, or to support a just cause (or it depends on where you're standing).

Seeing as Mance has largely been motivated by the common good, knowing how hard he tried to get his people south of the Wall, (where assimilation would have taken place to some degree, sooner or later)... and knowing that he's been inspired by Bael, there may be cause to think Bael was similarly motivated - looking for a way to span the barrier of the wall and mend the rift between those north and south of it, a hope made manifest in his son. Bael could hardly propose a marriage alliance to The Stark, so deception and "theft" were his only recourse. 

But apart from all that, two people who live most intimately together for a year, completely dependent on each other, with no one else to talk to, are reasonably likely fall in love. I'm not talking about Stockholm sydrome, because we also need to remember that Ygritte says (paraphrase) a man can own a wife or own a knife (not both).. meaning that if he's brutal, or unkind, or if she simply doesn't want to be there, he may not wake up in the morning.

As I said before , Bael would have needed to hunt or forage, and he would also have needed to sleep.

[A Ghost of Someone]

I wouldn't agree that Jon broke his oath, but that's another topic...

Moving on, generally..

Wow.. I haven't checked in here for a few days (busy putting up a thread of my own)  I had some other points, to make.. but I'll have to get back to those because, (wow).. I have to disagree with some of the Mance speculation, here.

Just think back to Mance and Jon's first conversation.. neither one of them tells the other the whole truth about why they're where they are. As a bastard, Jon truly did feel a bit of an outsider, but where he was seated at the feast in WF was not his normal position. He normally ate with his "siblings". (Rickon goes to him when the party for the high table enters) ..There's some truth in what he says, but it's not really the reason he's there... 

There is indubitably truth in the story of Mance's cloak, but it can't be the whole story.. the cloak's symbolism, for a thinking man like Mance, must stretch beyond a personal desire for freedom and refusal to be told what to wear, to a deeper consideration of freedoms and rules and  to what degree they should be accepted or eschewed.

Qhorin says Mance was "only going home" ... but like Theon, Mance spent at least half of his formative years in a second home .. he has reasons to admire (or dislike) aspects of both "homes" and will have life lessons learned from each of them. It stands to reason he would feel conflicted, now and then... And it stands to reason that he would come to see the NW was fighting the wrong enemy long before Mormont, or Jon. ...He knows why the Wall was originally built (to stop the Others), but he must empathise with Ygritte's claim that the Wall was built to keep wildlings out. He knows the free folk became the NW's enemy by default, in the absence of the Others. It took him years to become KBtW, a leader all the Free Folk would follow, and the Others were not active, or only minimally active, during most of that time. So just when he gains the ability to better the lives of his people, they turn up to complicate matters. Even if he wins through to the other side of the Wall ,he knows how weak the NW is, and what the consequences likely will be .. of course he's bitter.

I think Mance is "a true King" (as meant by Jon), putting the welfare of his people first (above personal gains or glory). 

When he spars with Jon as Rattleshirt he's not "attacking " Jon. He knows Jon had argued that Stannis should let him live. He knows that if Stannis had handed him over to the NW, it would have been difficult for Jon (as a very new LC) to avoid executing him. He's safer as Stannis' captive. ...He had tried to give Jon verbal clues to his identity, when Stannis gave "Rattleshirt" to Jon to use...
“I’ll range for you, bastard,” Rattleshirt declared. “I’ll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty
songs, as you prefer. I’ll even fight for you. Just don’t ask me to wear your cloak.”... "bastard" instead of "crow".. "sing you pretty songs" .. and especially "just don't ask me to wear your cloak" , are all big clues.

Mance tries again, when as "Rattleshirt" , he spars with Jon. Jon realises that his opponent seems taller, more agile, quicker than he ought to be. He doesn't pick up on the fact that "Rattleshirt" can suddenly fight like a trained member of the NW, or understand the full implications when "Rattleshirt" doesn't try to use the dagger on his belt. If the real Rattleshirt had a dagger in the same situation Jon should know he would use it (which Mance also hints at).

Jon doesn't get it.. He has no idea glamours are real, and may not even have heard of such things, but these are all clues Mance is trying to give him.

I think Mance has accepted that his time as leader of the Free Folk is done. My bet is that as he and Dalla once led them, Mance now thinks Jon (and Val) are the ones who should take up the task. Why did Jon send Val to find Tormund, instead of any other captive wildling? It's possible that the idea came to him in some "sage counsel" from Mance, before he left.

If Mance survives, I think he will become subordinate to Jon in the eyes of the Free Folk, as Tormund and others became subordinate to Mance.

Mance lives at Jon's mercy. Jon got more wildlings through the gate than Mance managed to, and without having to bend the knee to Stannis, or even pretend to take up a new God ...Jon has taken Val (and Mance's son) out of the King's Tower and under his personal protection, and now, because of the revelations in the pink letter, the Free Folk understand that Mance has been set to do Jon's bidding. Jon has obviously risen above Mance.

I see no reason why Mance would have ceased to be motivated by the common good and since Jon is similarly motivated, I think they will remain allies.

Deception is not always a bad thing. Sometimes it is (e.g. Littlefinger), sometimes it's simply necessary to survive, or to support a just cause (or it depends on where you're standing).

Seeing as Mance has largely been motivated by the common good, knowing how hard he tried to get his people south of the Wall, (where assimilation would have taken place to some degree, sooner or later)... and knowing that he's been inspired by Bael, there may be cause to think Bael was similarly motivated - looking for a way to span the barrier of the wall and mend the rift between those north and south of it, a hope made manifest in his son. Bael could hardly propose a marriage alliance to The Stark, so deception and "theft" were his only recourse. 

But apart from all that, two people who live most intimately together for a year, completely dependent on each other, with no one else to talk to, are reasonably likely fall in love. I'm not talking about Stockholm sydrome, because we also need to remember that Ygritte says (paraphrase) a man can own a wife or own a knife (not both).. meaning that if he's brutal, or unkind, or if she simply doesn't want to be there, he may not wake up in the morning.

As I said before , Bael would have needed to hunt or forage, and he would also have needed to sleep.

you make some nice points but Mance is also a prideful man. They have his son. Gilly took him to Oldtown. He has bitterness, that is understandable. Yes, he is a very accomplished man, a remarkable one at that. He has earned his place amongst his once tens upon tens of thousands where others South of the wall were born to it and probably could never accomplish what he did. However, he is dangersous. Maybe not malicious but dangerous and cannot fully be trusted. However, I am more than willing to change my opinion if TWOW proves me wrong. I also hope the letter is a lie in that he is being caged and has been tortured and the spearwives as well. I also hope, that I am wrong about Mance in general but until further writ, I cannot bring myself to trusting him if he sees an advantage.

[bemused]

you make some nice points but Mance is also a prideful man. They have his son. Gilly took him to Oldtown. He has bitterness, that is understandable. Yes, he is a very accomplished man, a remarkable one at that. He has earned his place amongst his once tens upon tens of thousands where others South of the wall were born to it and probably could never accomplish what he did. However, he is dangersous. Maybe not malicious but dangerous and cannot fully be trusted. However, I am more than willing to change my opinion if TWOW proves me wrong. I also hope the letter is a lie in that he is being caged and has been tortured and the spearwives as well. I also hope, that I am wrong about Mance in general but until further writ, I cannot bring myself to trusting him if he sees an advantage.

Maybe Mance is prideful.. but if so, he's already had a great fall.

I don't want to derail Sly Wren's topic, so here's an archived thread with some of my ideas about Mance , if you're interested ..  http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/120082-mance-may-be-qorgyles-son/

I have hopes for Mance's survival too, and see his rescue of "Farya" as a good thing.

[Sly Wren]

Mance needs people to make him their king. If he and they stay above the Wall, soon, there will be no people to claim him as their King. He relishes the position and I think his pride makes him vengeful. I do not like him anywhere near Winterfell as I think if he could take it for himself and his followers, he would, to cement his own legend.

It may go back to Ygritte's disagreement re: the nature of Bael: "it's all in where you're standing." Dance's taking Winterfell would be consistent with his idea of kinging and conquering and greatness. Like what the kings beyond the Wall who came before him wanted to do--he'd finally get to do it.

So, a good thing for the free folk. And for his own legacy. But, as you say, don't trust him near Winterfell.

Seeing as Mance has largely been motivated by the common good, knowing how hard he tried to get his people south of the Wall, (where assimilation would have taken place to some degree, sooner or later)... and knowing that he's been inspired by Bael, there may be cause to think Bael was similarly motivated - looking for a way to span the barrier of the wall and mend the rift between those north and south of it, a hope made manifest in his son. Bael could hardly propose a marriage alliance to The Stark, so deception and "theft" were his only recourse.

But Mance isn't only inspired by Bael. He's inspired by kings beyond the Wall in general. And for his own desire to do as he pleases. It is for the good of the wildlings, but that doesn't stop it's being for his good, too. Then kinda has him pegged--as Abel, Mance is more pander than singer. He's a deceiver and a player--good for him. Good for his people (to a point). Bad for those who oppose him. 

As for Bael's motive--Ygritte makes that really explicit: the teach the Stark a lesson for calling him a craven. The Stark maid isn't even mentioned until after Bael takes her. And Ygritte disclaims any idea of the maid loving Bael. And makes no mention at all re: Bael's feelings for the maid. This is between Bael and the Stark in Winterfell, according to the tale as Ygritte tells it. Which is the only telling we have.  So, the idea of a marriage alliance--the text doesn't rule it out. But it makes absolutely no mention of such a thing. In the tale Bael made himself. That tale, at least as told by Ygritte, makes the intent very clear.

But apart from all that, two people who live most intimately together for a year, completely dependent on each other, with no one else to talk to, are reasonably likely fall in love. I'm not talking about Stockholm sydrome, because we also need to remember that Ygritte says (paraphrase) a man can own a wife or own a knife (not both).. meaning that if he's brutal, or unkind, or if she simply doesn't want to be there, he may not wake up in the morning.

As I said before , Bael would have needed to hunt or forage, and he would also have needed to sleep.

I agree the above is possible. Problem is, Ygritte disclaims it. 

And the examples we have so far with a stolen Stark maid--the maids DO NOT love their captors/stealers. Even their "saving" deceivers--like Bael-ish. It could happen, as you say. But I can't help but believe Martin had Ygritte disclaim this aspect for a reason. Especially when it matches what we see with other stolen Stark maids.

[Sly Wren]

you make some nice points but Mance is also a prideful man. They have his son. Gilly took him to Oldtown. He has bitterness, that is understandable. Yes, he is a very accomplished man, a remarkable one at that. He has earned his place amongst his once tens upon tens of thousands where others South of the wall were born to it and probably could never accomplish what he did. However, he is dangersous. Maybe not malicious but dangerous and cannot fully be trusted. However, I am more than willing to change my opinion if TWOW proves me wrong. I also hope the letter is a lie in that he is being caged and has been tortured and the spearwives as well. I also hope, that I am wrong about Mance in general but until further writ, I cannot bring myself to trusting him if he sees an advantage.

Yup. He is remarkable. But his goals are not necessarily in line with the best interests of the north. He's a king in his own mind--and so far, those who declare themselves king in these novels are rarely models of sweetness and light.

But, as you say, we need to see more to know for sure.

Maybe Mance is prideful.. but if so, he's already had a great fall. !

Touche. 

I don't want to derail Sly Wren's topic, so here's an archived thread with some of my ideas about Mance , if you're interested ..  http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/120082-mance-may-be-qorgyles-son/

I have hopes for Mance's survival too, and see his rescue of "Farya" as a good thing.

No worries on "derailing"--the nature of the Bael legend is a central question of my OP. And Mance is a big part of that. Plus, my other OPs seem to turn into "symbol sandboxes" anyway--play spaces for related subjects. No reason this can't be a Bael-based sandbox. So--play away! It's all good.