Is it possible that Elia helped Rhaegar to elope?

[purple-eyes]

It was a mystery that why rhaegar chose TOJ as his love nest. 

After all TOJ is in prince's pass, part of Dorne. And it is the land of his wife's house. 

Guarded by Doran's dornishmen as well as Robert's men. And Who will bring your secret lover to your wife's area?  

if you read the sample chapter of the wind, you will see TOJ is likely a watch tower which was used before Dorne joined 7k. 

After the peace, it was abandoned. There were many of them in the border of wrath cape. 

As a dornish princess (where women seem to be more active in ruling), I would say Elia probably knew about these abandoned towers. 

If she is on board with three dragon head prophecy, and also she loved and obeyed rhaegar (per oberyn), so she agreed that rhaegar had to have a third head or a son of ice and fire or a future bride for her own son, maybe she told rhaegar this is a good place to hide. And her lady in waiting Ashara can serve as a coordinator with arthur dayne to supply TOJ and provide some professional help to lyanna for childbirth. If something really bad happened, she can ask her brother doran to help rhaegar too. Of course everything needs to be secret because rhaegar can not let people know about his crazy prophecy stuff. 

So this is secret among elia, rhaegar, arthur, Whent and maybe ashara. 

But later Brandon and Rickard were killed. Still rhaegar was silent, why? Know nothing about the outside? Unlikely. Maybe elia secretly informed him from dragonstone and said that things are still under control. 

But after herself was kept as hostage in red keep, then even elia must be worried. So she gave some secret instructions to white bull and helped him to find rhaegar. Then rhaegar came back. 

Every dornish woman we have ever seen is not silent and useless. They are active on politics and even military. So maybe a clever Elia is quite active in this, to fulfil her husband's plan. 

Here are is the quote about the tower along cape wrath. 

All along the south coast of Cape Wrath was crumbling stone watchtowers raised in ancient days to give warning of Dornish raiders stealing in across the Sea. Villages had grown up about the towers. A few had flowered into towns. 

And one tower called weeping tower. 

I feel this is just a description for TOJ. 

Tower of joy. Weeping tower. Crumbling old stone watchtowers on the border, with some villages around. 

Sounds so familiar. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[princess_snow]

I have not read the sample chapter, but I agree with you - that Elia was compliant with the situation between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Dornish women dont seem to have a problem with their husband having a paramour so why not a wife ? I hope we get to know the full story of this and not just bits and pieces.

[purple-eyes]

I have not read the sample chapter, but I agree with you - that Elia was compliant with the situation between Rhaegar and Lyanna. Dornish women dont seem to have a problem with their husband having a paramour so why not a wife ? I hope we get to know the full story of this and not just bits and pieces.

paramour and wife have big differences. 

It is incredibly ridiculous to say dornish women was ok with paramour so why not a wife. 

I do not think Elia would agree something like second wife. 

But of course if rhaegar insists, probably she has to swallow this insult. 

After all it is better than to be set aside or murdered. 

[princess_snow]

paramour and wife have big differences. 

I do not think Elia would agree something like second wife. 

But of course if rhaegar insists, probably she has to swallow this insult. 

After all it is better than to be set aside or murdered. 

Yes you are right do you think Rhaegar would have had her murdered if she refused tho ? Is that what you are saying ?

[purple-eyes]

The thing is, elia can not have third child for rhaegar. 

Even in the reality, nowadays, if a wife is barren, but her husband needs one child, but they can not divorce,  I guess this wife would agree to let her husband to find a surrogate mother or maybe a lover. 

It does not sound very good, but no other choice. 

 

[princess_snow]

Do you think that Elia helped them elope ? That is what you posed in the OP yes ? 

I always felt sorry for Elia , but perhaps she did help them and was accepting ... I dont know .. I dont have the answers. I would be really interested in learning more about Elia though. Shes as mysterious to me as Lyanna.   

[purple-eyes]

Yes you are right do you think Rhaegar would have had her murdered if she refused tho ? Is that what you are saying ?

murdering is just an extreme word. Set aside is much more likely. 

I am just saying compared to the worst cases, a clever woman should cooperate with rhaegar. 

Elia certainly had no power to refuse rhaegar. 

She can cry she can scream she can talk around and complain, but she can not stop rhaegar. 

This will only make rhaegar hate her, and someday it may cause a murdering, who knows. 

Even viserys possibly murdered nephew baelor and aegon possibly murdered his father. 

 

[purple-eyes]

Do you think that Elia helped them elope ? That is what you posed in the OP yes ? 

I always felt sorry for Elia , but perhaps she did help them and was accepting ... I dont know .. I dont have the answers. I would be really interested in learning more about Elia though. Shes as mysterious to me as Lyanna.   

I feel very sorry for her and children too. 

Though I do feel she is helping rhaegar. Or at least agree his need. 

Otherwise kind of hard to explain her silence and also the location of TOJ. Rhaegar did not have chance to visit Dorne that much. Probably elia is the only reason he had some connection with Dorne. 

[princess_snow]

 

I am just saying compared to the worst cases, a clever woman should cooperate with rhaegar. 

Elia certainly had no power to refuse rhaegar. 

She can cry she can scream she can talk around and complain, but she can not stop rhaegar. 

This will only make rhaegar hate her, and someday it may cause a murdering, who knows. 

Even viserys possibly murdered nephew baelor and aegon possibly murdered his father. 

 

Not sure why I cant reply without it quoting you , anyway... Yes I agree she wasnt silly enough to think she could stop Rhaegar from doing what he wanted. She knew he was obsessed with the prophecy I assume ? Maybe she believed in it too ?   

[purple-eyes]

Not sure why I cant reply without it quoting you , anyway... Yes I agree she wasnt silly enough to think she could stop Rhaegar from doing what he wanted. She knew he was obsessed with the prophecy I assume ? Maybe she believed in it too ?   

well, she may not believe it completely. It does sound a little bit absurd. 

But rhaegar believed it all his life. From a child to an adult. 

So maybe he can persuade her. 

You know, like stannis and Celyse. 

Rhaegar is surely obsessed with prophecy. 

What kind of father and husband will say " prince that was promised" "must be one more" to his new born baby son and wife who just almost died from childbirth? 

 

[princess_snow]

an obsessed one lol thats for sure. It does sound quite mad, its funny how you - at least me - start to accept it as normal by the end of the book though. If that makes sense ?  

[purple-eyes]

an obsessed one lol thats for sure. It does sound quite mad, its funny how you - at least me - start to accept it as normal by the end of the book though. If that makes sense ?  

it is not normal but these guys are very powerful, so people can not refuse. 

Like egg in his late year, also obsessed with dragon reborn. 

Aerys, obsessed with wildfire. Aerys i, obsessed with books and magics. 

Baelor, obsessed with religion. 

They do have these genes. 

[princess_snow]

I meant I accept Rhaegars obsession re the prophecy as normal I know in reality it isnt, but I do. Yes theyre all a bit mad some more than others re the Targs. Although Maester Aemon didnt appear to be. Although he did discuss the prophecy with Rhaegar didnt he so maybe I am wrong here. Sorry to get off topic on your post.

Well would love to chat more but its almost dark here and NYE is awaiting. Happy New Year to you Purple eyes !   

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yes, there is a chance but we know so little about Elia (and Rhaegar, and what their relationship was) that we can't really say much about it without enter to the realm of baseless assumption.

Nevertheless, an assumption already made is that Elia was of certain way just because she was Dornish. There is no one way to be for Dornish women.

Men having paramours or mistresses is not uncommon outside of Dorne. Cat wasn't surprised Ned had fathered a bastard, and Robert is not condemned for having one and many other women beside his wife. And like him, many Lords have other women outside marriage. But in the same way, many men do honour their marriage vows and remain loyal. It's the same for the Dornish. While they are a bit more open minded about Paramours (and they definitely don't shame them), it's not necessarily a custom everybody follows, and some might even see as wrong (many Dornish worship the Seven).

Also, let's remember that the most famous Dornish paramour happens to be the paramour of a Prince of Dorne. Oberyn knew taking Elaria to King's Landing would be provoking, and Tyrion knew that offending her would offend Dorne. In the same way, Doran sat Elaria at his table not only because she was the woman his brother loved, but because he was the Prince and could seat whoever he wanted at his main table. We're seeing the case of the most important family in Dorne: they can get away with things and they shouldn't be taken as a reference.

Assuming Elia was "ok" with Rhaegar having a Paramour is a bit too much, specially if we do it because we believe she was Dornish. She definitely knew and believed (unlike many people) that having a mistress or a lover doesn't make you a bad person, but that's different than telling your husband "yeah, go ahead". If she was aware of Rhaegar having another woman wasn't due to her being from Dorne but because it's also not uncommon for Princes having mistresses and people being aware their relationships weren't based on love.

 

 

[purple-eyes]

I meant I accept Rhaegars obsession re the prophecy as normal I know in reality it isnt, but I do. Yes theyre all a bit mad some more than others re the Targs. Although Maester Aemon didnt appear to be. Although he did discuss the prophecy with Rhaegar didnt he so maybe I am wrong here. Sorry to get off topic on your post.

Well would love to chat more but its almost dark here and NYE is awaiting. Happy New Year to you Purple eyes !   

thanks, you too! 

[purple-eyes]

Yes, there is a chance but we know so little about Elia (and Rhaegar, and what their relationship was) that we can't really say much about it without enter to the realm of baseless assumption.

Nevertheless, an assumption already made is that Elia was of certain way just because she was Dornish. There is no one way to be for Dornish women.

Men having paramours or mistresses is not uncommon outside of Dorne. Cat wasn't surprised Ned had fathered a bastard, and Robert is not condemned for having one and many other women beside his wife. And like him, many Lords have other women outside marriage. But in the same way, many men do honour their marriage vows and remain loyal. It's the same for the Dornish. While they are a bit more open minded about Paramours (and they definitely don't shame them), it's not necessarily a custom everybody follows, and some might even see as wrong (many Dornish worship the Seven).

Also, let's remember that the most famous Dornish paramour happens to be the paramour of a Prince of Dorne. Oberyn knew taking Elaria to King's Landing would be provoking, and Tyrion knew that offending her would offend Dorne. In the same way, Doran sat Elaria at his table not only because she was the woman his brother loved, but because he was the Prince and could seat whoever he wanted at his main table. We're seeing the case of the most important family in Dorne: they can get away with things and they shouldn't be taken as a reference.

Assuming Elia was "ok" with Rhaegar having a Paramour is a bit too much, specially if we do it because we believe she was Dornish. She definitely knew and believed (unlike many people) that having a mistress or a lover doesn't make you a bad person, but that's different than telling your husband "yeah, go ahead". If she was aware of Rhaegar having another woman wasn't due to her being from Dorne but because it's also not uncommon for Princes having mistresses and people being aware their relationships weren't based on love.

 

 

oh yeah, this is not related to Dorne. 

In fact, it looks like they respected women much more than other areas, which include wives. 

But rhaegar is different, as a future king, people expect him to have some mistresses. And I think he had some sexual relationship before marriage too, after all he was married at 21. 

The point is, rhaegar is very obsessed in prophecy. 

For this type of people, elia can only cooperate. 

We know they have a good relationship and rhaegar is singleminded. 

So it is reasonable that Elia tried to make this thing secret and under control. Minimize the risk. So she may help them hide and wish it is less troublesome. 

 

 

 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Since there are no textual hints in favor of her having supported him, currently, I have to say that I strongly doubt she helped him, or even agreed with his plan, if eloping was what Rhaegar did.

 

In Dorne, they are more open to paramours, but that doesn't mean that each Dornishwoman will be OK with her husband having a paramour.

While I do believe that polygamy was an option for Rhaegar, I don't believe Elia would been OK with it. She was the second most important woman in the Seven Kingdoms, behind only Rhaella. She was to be a Queen one day, and born a Princess, where Lyanna was 'only' a Lady.  As a woman in her position, her husband taking on a paramour would be an insult. As would be her husband taking on another wife whilst she still lived.. with such an act, he would practically declare that Elia was not good enough for him. A huge issue would be that Lyanna would be seen as favored over Elia by Rhaegar, which would  be a danger to Aegon's claim. And for a woman who has just given birth to the heir to the throne (and almost died to birth him, on top of that), immediately endangering his claim does not seem to be an option.

And while I am still convinced that Rhaegar was convinced until the end that his child by Lyanna would be a girl, that doesn't mean that Elia couldn't see how there would only be a 50% chance of that, and that Rhaegar could father other children on Lyanna afterwards who could endanger both Aegon and Rhaenys.

 

As to the OP, Elia was never supposed to rule, hence she would not have received the education that goes along with ruling a kingdom. So I can't really assume she would have known the exact locations of  all watchtowers in Dorne, abandoned or otherwise.

[purple-eyes]

Since there are no textual hints in favor of her having supported him, currently, I have to say that I strongly doubt she helped him, or even agreed with his plan, if eloping was what Rhaegar did.

 

In Dorne, they are more open to paramours, but that doesn't mean that each Dornishwoman will be OK with her husband having a paramour.

While I do believe that polygamy was an option for Rhaegar, I don't believe Elia would been OK with it. She was the second most important woman in the Seven Kingdoms, behind only Rhaella. She was to be a Queen one day, and born a Princess, where Lyanna was 'only' a Lady.  As a woman in her position, her husband taking on a paramour would be an insult. As would be her husband taking on another wife whilst she still lived.. with such an act, he would practically declare that Elia was not good enough for him. A huge issue would be that Lyanna would be seen as favored over Elia by Rhaegar, which would  be a danger to Aegon's claim. And for a woman who has just given birth to the heir to the throne (and almost died to birth him, on top of that), immediately endangering his claim does not seem to be an option.

And while I am still convinced that Rhaegar was convinced until the end that his child by Lyanna would be a girl, that doesn't mean that Elia couldn't see how there would only be a 50% chance of that, and that Rhaegar could father other children on Lyanna afterwards who could endanger both Aegon and Rhaenys.

 

As to the OP, Elia was never supposed to rule, hence she would not have received the education that goes along with ruling a kingdom. So I can't really assume she would have known the exact locations of  all watchtowers in Dorne, abandoned or otherwise.

no wife would agree. But elia's situation is different. 

rhaella is the no.1 woman of the country, still she had to suffer the unfaithfulness of her husband. Same with elia. They are not going to protest against their husbands. 

Rhaegar already decided to take action for lyanna, a clever woman can only accept and try to make things better: for example, reduce the shame, no anger or drama, make them hide better, avoid the fighting, etc. And also show her loyalty and gain rhaegar's favor. 

elia is not for ruling. But in Dorne, daughter and son are treated same. So she will receive same education as oberyn or Quentin. She does not need to know exactly which one is which one, but she knew these abandoned towers are secret, nobody use them for 100 years, deep in mountain, good for a little group, this will be useful enough. Rhaegar can find a best one and stay. 

 

 

 

[bent branch]

I don't know if I would agree that Elia helped Rhaegar elope with Lyanna, but I do find the possibility that Elia was the one to tell Hightower the location of the ToJ intriguing.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

no wife would agree. But elia's situation is different. 

rhaella is the no.1 woman of the country, still she had to suffer the unfaithfulness of her husband. Same with elia. They are not going to protest against their husbands. 

Rhaegar already decided to take action for lyanna, a clever woman can only accept and try to make things better: for example, reduce the shame, no anger or drama, make them hide better, avoid the fighting, etc. And also show her loyalty and gain rhaegar's favor. 

elia is not for ruling. But in Dorne, daughter and son are treated same. So she will receive same education as oberyn or Quentin. She does not need to know exactly which one is which one, but she knew these abandoned towers are secret, nobody use them for 100 years, deep in mountain, good for a little group, this will be useful enough. Rhaegar can find a best one and stay. 

Sons and daughters are treated the same, when it's about ruling. Daughters can inherit, and when they are heir, they will be raised as such.

That does not mean that a younger daughter will be raised with the same education that the heir will be raised as. She will have been taught the same as Oberyn, but Oberyn will not have been taught exactly the same as Doran. That's the difference.

 

Yes, Rhaella had to suffer her husbands infidelities. There's quite a difference in suffering through them, and allowing them. And look at Rhaella... she took action against Aerys' mistresses the second she got the chance to do so. She most certainly did not agree with them.

How would Elia helping Rhaegar reduce the shame? Westeros will still view her the same.. As to reducing the anger, drama, and avoiding the fighting... That's not at all what happened.. As to gaining favor with Rhaegar... He would be replacing her, how's that for gaining favor?

 

A mother will not willingly endanger the claims of her children.

You mention in your OP that Elia loved Rhaegar, but that has been mentioned in the show only. We do know that Elia and Rhaegar's relationship was complicated, but love has not been  mentioned.