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purple-eyes

Is it possible that Elia helped Rhaegar to elope?

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Rhaella was quiet because Aerys wasn't an a-hole enough to run away/kidnap with a girl from a great house who betrothed to other great house. It was embarassing for her, there's no doubt in that, but not endangering. Position wise Rhaella and Rhaegar were safe. So, plus one for Aerys against Rhaegar, i guess. And Rhaegar should take note that being cheated on is embarassing, he was a first hand witness of Aerys's treatment to Rhaella but he did what he did anyway

Elia is mentioned as kind but she's also a mother who loves her children. Even a kind woman could turn into a beast when her children's position is threatened, any issue of R+L would threatened her children so i disagree with Elia helped Rhaegar. More like Rhaegar ran away to get himself another oven after the 1st oven broke


 

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Suffering constant cheating isn't the same as allowing it. And Rhaella was less than pleased, going as far as to say that Joanna Lannister was Aerys' "whore". Elia had zero reasons to help Rhaegar and especially not because she was Dornish. (Same like old Yronwood, BTW). Magic had been gone from the world for a very long time, her children, however, were very real, as was Rhaegar's boner for Lyanna. How could Elia minimize the shame? Only Rhaegar could do that and he clearly didn't bother at Harrenhall, letting her sit right there while he rode for Lyanna, silver hair flowing.

If Rhaegar was a decent person, he wouldn't hold her disagreement against her because he would know he was putting her in a terrible place. Then again, it was quite clear that he'd favour Lyanna over her anyway. I am not entirely sold on the idea that the famous conversation with Elia (in which it's never clear that he's talking to her and not himself or Dany, BTW) took place when he already knew he wouldn't get a third child from her. Why would it? In the havoc of a birth that nearly killed her, the maesters wouldn't rush to him with the news of her new reproductive status right away. And if he was indeed very fond of her - which I find dubious but whatever - he wouldn't rush to them with this question immediately either. He'd just be happy that she and Aegon made it out alive. In my book, it's quite possible that at the time of the conversation, he was wondering what to do - "there must be one more" but Elia had almost died. He might have been pondering on how on earth should he make the two things jive together - having one more child while minimizing the risk for Elia. In this version, he only heard that there wouldn't be a third child later which might have shaken his certainty that Aegon was the prince he was waiting for. Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya were siblings, not half-siblings.

Which would give Elia an even less reason to support him. It isn't this far from "my children with Lyanna are destined to save the world" to "those children should inherit the Seven Kingdoms first, it's so logical!"

As to helping them hide better, please. Generally, posters agree that she was summoned to King's Landing to serve as hostage well before Rhaegar reappeared. Basic logic dictates that she'd try to contact Rhaegar and insist that he comes back to help her and her children before she went. The fact that he didn't means that either she had no idea where in hell he was hiding, or that he was totally cool with them being hostages. Perhaps even a little glad since this way, Daddy could clear the way for Rhaegar's real prince. Which would make Elia a fool for not taking the hints for what they were - HH, his apparent disinterest in Aegon as his own child, his readiness to leave her so soon after she almost died. I don't think that's what happened.

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I'm not convinced that the "abduction" happened because of love. The fact that George desides to put all the characters but Robert to paint Rhaegar as a great guy has to have a purpose. And the purpose in my opinion is that he wanted to make the readers think: "Wait a minute. What? If he was so sensible and decent and honorable, are we sure he did what we are told he did and for the reasons we are told he did it?" Nor do I believe that Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy, since I haven't find something in the text that supports this obsession. Rhaegar was very interested in the prophecy, because he was the only one that had found about the truth of it, but obsession? I don't see it. 

I tend to believe that the abduction was some kind of rescuing. I can't be sure of course, but that's what I suspect. And perhaps Elia was aware of that, perhaps not. If she was aware of this intention of her husband, I' m sure she wouldn't have a problem with it.

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"Look, there's this old tower in Dorne where we all used to go to make out. Take that northern girl there, you have my blessing, but for the Seven's sake, just stop talking about how there's an ancient prophecy that says you have to sleep with her to save the world!"

For some reason I picture Rhaegar like Lester from American Beauty, fantasizing about Lyanna covered in blue winter roses. 

 

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Dornish women might be more understanding of paramours, but I guarantee that Dornish Ladies like being humiliated publicly just as much as anybody i.e. not at all. And I don't care how understanding you are about your husbands infidelities, no lady in a feudal system wants her husband to have legitimate children that might threaten their own, especially not from a woman with such powerful political ties. So no, I don't think she was cool with it. I mean, if Rhaegar needed a third child, why did Lyanna Stark have to be the baby machine? Wouldn't any peasant girl do? Or some low-level noble, like a Westerling or something? Lyanna was probably the worst choice in terms of 'how politically poor can I make this decision?'

This theory also requires Elia to be stupid enough to think that this plan is a good idea in the first place. Now, I can see how maybe two people in love, or lust, might allow their feelings to overrule their good sense, but someone intelligent and impartial should have seen that this was a bad idea.

And why on Earth would Elia tell Rhaegar, after the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, that everything was 'under control'? His bit-on-the-side's brother and father were murdered by his father, and war was breaking out! What's 'under control' about that?

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"Look, there's this old tower in Dorne where we all used to go to make out. Take that northern girl there, you have my blessing, but for the Seven's sake, just stop talking about how there's an ancient prophecy that says you have to sleep with her to save the world!"

For some reason I picture Rhaegar like Lester from American Beauty, fantasizing about Lyanna covered in blue winter roses. 

I don't remember who posted this originally, but all credit to them:

"Babydoll, I don't like making the beast with two backs with that sexy wolf girl over and over again while locked away in our own private love nest any more than you do, but if I don't I can't get her pregnant with the legendary hero I read about in ancient tomes from an extinct culture, and then ice zombies will eat everybody! I'm doing this for you snookums! Snookums?Snookums where are you going??"

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Dornish women might be more understanding of paramours, but I guarantee that Dornish Ladies like being humiliated publicly just as much as anybody i.e. not at all. And I don't care how understanding you are about your husbands infidelities, no lady in a feudal system wants her husband to have legitimate children that might threaten their own, especially not from a woman with such powerful political ties. So no, I don't think she was cool with it. I mean, if Rhaegar needed a third child, why did Lyanna Stark have to be the baby machine? Wouldn't any peasant girl do? Or some low-level noble, like a Westerling or something? Lyanna was probably the worst choice in terms of 'how politically poor can I make this decision?'

This theory also requires Elia to be stupid enough to think that this plan is a good idea in the first place. Now, I can see how maybe two people in love, or lust, might allow their feelings to overrule their good sense, but someone intelligent and impartial should have seen that this was a bad idea.

And why on Earth would Elia tell Rhaegar, after the deaths of Rickard and Brandon, that everything was 'under control'? His bit-on-the-side's brother and father were murdered by his father, and war was breaking out! What's 'under control' about that?

to be fair, until battle of bells, rebellion was not that big. 

Many houses of vale and storm land refuse to work with rebellion. 

Reach army besieged strom end. North and river lands not in war yet. 

Even Aerys did not think it a big deal, until JonCon lost. 

but after the bell, north and tully joined. 

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to be fair, until battle of bells, rebellion was not that big. 

Many houses of vale and storm land refuse to work with rebellion. 

Reach army besieged strom end. North and river lands not in war yet. 

Even Aerys did not think it a big deal, until JonCon lost. 

but after the bell, north and tully joined. 

Even so, there's no reason for Elia to protect Rhaegar's honeymoon when things are definitely not going to the plan. With Aerys being as mad as he was, the most natural thing would be for her to want Rhaegar there, not making sweet love to his wolf girl in the middle of nowhere.

And why would she be the only one Rhaegar trusts with this? Your theory presumes that Elia was such a terrified little mouse that she never tried to argue with Rhaegar, was so disgustingly sweet that he thought she was cheering him right on and that she never tried to protect her children's inheritance and their very lives by at least trying to oppose Rhaegar. Because if she did, he'd never think it's a wise idea to turn to her about ideas where to bang the source of her continuing humiliation. Or have her be his only contact. After all, there's nothing stopping Elia from arranging an accident for him and his sweetheart who are so conveniently in Dorne and then try to fight her own corner as Aegon's mother against Aerys and Viserys. The only reason that Rhaegar wouldn't have those considerations in mind would be if Elia was indeed the doormat you're presenting to us.

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to be fair, until battle of bells, rebellion was not that big. 

Many houses of vale and storm land refuse to work with rebellion. 

Reach army besieged strom end. North and river lands not in war yet. 

Even Aerys did not think it a big deal, until JonCon lost. 

but after the bell, north and tully joined. 

The North was rallying its troops and first fought at the Battle of the Bells, but they were always 'in' the war. The situation was always serious. And even if there was no war, you don't think Rhaegar's dad murdering Lyanna's dad and brother is more important than their shacking up?

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The North was rallying its troops and first fought at the Battle of the Bells, but they were always 'in' the war. The situation was always serious. And even if there was no war, you don't think Rhaegar's dad murdering Lyanna's dad and brother is more important than their shacking up?

well, to be honest, rhaegar certainly put the savior baby over lives of a few stark. The reason he had to hide is to make a baby, not to just have hot sex. We never saw a man run away for one year to only have sex.

If he left before making sure lyanna is pregnant, whole effort will be wasted.  

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Since there are no textual hints in favor of her having supported him, currently, I have to say that I strongly doubt she helped him, or even agreed with his plan, if eloping was what Rhaegar did.

 

In Dorne, they are more open to paramours, but that doesn't mean that each Dornishwoman will be OK with her husband having a paramour.

While I do believe that polygamy was an option for Rhaegar, I don't believe Elia would been OK with it. She was the second most important woman in the Seven Kingdoms, behind only Rhaella. She was to be a Queen one day, and born a Princess, where Lyanna was 'only' a Lady.  As a woman in her position, her husband taking on a paramour would be an insult. As would be her husband taking on another wife whilst she still lived.. with such an act, he would practically declare that Elia was not good enough for him. A huge issue would be that Lyanna would be seen as favored over Elia by Rhaegar, which would  be a danger to Aegon's claim. And for a woman who has just given birth to the heir to the throne (and almost died to birth him, on top of that), immediately endangering his claim does not seem to be an option.

And while I am still convinced that Rhaegar was convinced until the end that his child by Lyanna would be a girl, that doesn't mean that Elia couldn't see how there would only be a 50% chance of that, and that Rhaegar could father other children on Lyanna afterwards who could endanger both Aegon and Rhaenys.

 

As to the OP, Elia was never supposed to rule, hence she would not have received the education that goes along with ruling a kingdom. So I can't really assume she would have known the exact locations of  all watchtowers in Dorne, abandoned or otherwise.

I think you are trying to apply too much logic to illogical thoughts by Rhaegar.  His whole obsession with the three heads was to fulfill prophecy.  We are told many times how dangerous and hard to read prophecies are.  They are not logical.   In the HOTU, Daenerys saw a vision of Rhaegar basically telling Ellia that they need another child.  Ellia had to know that another child would kill her at this point and being Dornish and married to a Targ, she would not be unfamiliar with the idea of polygamy and how it ran in the family.  She may not have liked the idea, but I believe 100% that she was complicate and outwardly supportive (but probably internally reserved). 

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Even so, there's no reason for Elia to protect Rhaegar's honeymoon when things are definitely not going to the plan. With Aerys being as mad as he was, the most natural thing would be for her to want Rhaegar there, not making sweet love to his wolf girl in the middle of nowhere.

And why would she be the only one Rhaegar trusts with this? Your theory presumes that Elia was such a terrified little mouse that she never tried to argue with Rhaegar, was so disgustingly sweet that he thought she was cheering him right on and that she never tried to protect her children's inheritance and their very lives by at least trying to oppose Rhaegar. Because if she did, he'd never think it's a wise idea to turn to her about ideas where to bang the source of her continuing humiliation. Or have her be his only contact. After all, there's nothing stopping Elia from arranging an accident for him and his sweetheart who are so conveniently in Dorne and then try to fight her own corner as Aegon's mother against Aerys and Viserys. The only reason that Rhaegar wouldn't have those considerations in mind would be if Elia was indeed the doormat you're presenting to us.

I am sure she is not happy at heart. But she has no choice. Rhaegar is certain he wanted third head or even a promised prince, nothing can change that. It is sort of like woman is encouraged to give rapist a condom, not that it is good, but for less hurt and more protection. 

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I think you are trying to apply too much logic to illogical thoughts by Rhaegar.  His whole obsession with the three heads was to fulfill prophecy.  We are told many times how dangerous and hard to read prophecies are.  They are not logical.   In the HOTU, Daenerys saw a vision of Rhaegar basically telling Ellia that they need another child.  Ellia had to know that another child would kill her at this point and being Dornish and married to a Targ, she would not be unfamiliar with the idea of polygamy and how it ran in the family.  She may not have liked the idea, but I believe 100% that she was complicate and outwardly supportive (but probably internally reserved). 

I do not think she support polygamy. She would only likely agree to let him have a mistress and bastard. 

In fact, the issue of polygamy is that it will give rhaegar a lot of trouble for his action and ruling. From society and faith. People do not like this and the political influence will be really bad. Not just about elia's feeling. 

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well, to be honest, rhaegar certainly put the savior baby over lives of a few stark. The reason he had to hide is to make a baby, not to just have hot sex. We never saw a man run away for one year to only have sex.

If he left before making sure lyanna is pregnant, whole effort will be wasted.  

But you said Elia maybe wrote to Rhaegar saying everything was 'under control.' Unless she was so high on prophecy kool-aid that she thinks them having a baby is more important than what is actually happening, I can't see her saying the situation was 'under control.'

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I never understand this idea that Rhaegar had to take a second wife. Why, in terms of prophecy, would it matter if his third child is legitimate or not? Why not just knock up some peasant girl and legitimise the child when you're King? Why the need for a marriage that will piss off a lot of people?

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But you said Elia maybe wrote to Rhaegar saying everything was 'under control.' Unless she was so high on prophecy kool-aid that she thinks them having a baby is more important than what is actually happening, I can't see her saying the situation was 'under control.'

it was not that bad. Even aerys did not bother look for him. Robert was injured and hid. His castle was besieged. Aerys thought it is a little local rebellion thanks to his hand merrywether. Targ put down five blackfire rebellions, they are confident. 

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it was not that bad. Even aerys did not bother look for him. Robert was injured and hid. His castle was besieged. Aerys thought it is a little local rebellion thanks to his hand merrywether. Targ put down five blackfire rebellions, they are confident. 

I was referring to Lyanna's dead family. I think to a sane person, that would take priority over your husband's infidelity for a prophecy baby. Not to mention leaving someone as mentally unstable as Aerys in charge of a war is irresponsible as hell.

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I never understand this idea that Rhaegar had to take a second wife. Why, in terms of prophecy, would it matter if his third child is legitimate or not? Why not just knock up some peasant girl and legitimise the child when you're King? Why the need for a marriage that will piss off a lot of people?

there was no marriage. A polygamy marriage is really bad for his future ruling, especially when he tried o depose his father. He is a mistrusted prince. 

If he did it, he gave his daddy a terrific reason to disinherit him and install viserys. Then his whole line will not be able to rule. 

This is not about to please or honor lyanna. Rhaegar himself and his whole family would be in big trouble. 

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I am sure she is not happy at heart. But she has no choice. Rhaegar is certain he wanted third head or even a promised prince, nothing can change that. It is sort of like woman is encouraged to give rapist a condom, not that it is good, but for less hurt and more protection. 

I still don't see why she won't say she isn't happy. Rhaegar isn't some kind of monster. Why won't she express her concerns and instead turns herself into someone who can be happily ignored beforehand?

Your rape comparison isn't quite accurate. It's more like a woman who sees a car nearby, a car with the engine started. Sure, she might not escape the rapist but she doesn't even try. Instead, she meekly hands the condom.

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I was referring to Lyanna's dead family. I think to a sane person, that would take priority over your husband's infidelity for a prophecy baby. Not to mention leaving someone as mentally unstable as Aerys in charge of a war is irresponsible as hell.

Unless Elia was as unstable as Aerys or as prophecy high as Rhaegar, she'd think it's worth disturbing his honeymoon. Not this big of a deal doesn't equal "let's not bother my dear husband! He has to bang her in peace of mind!"

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