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purple-eyes

Did LF murder Joff to revenge Cat?

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I know LF is trying to mess up the court. 

But it took a lot of effort to murder the king And it is very risky. Joff is grandson of tywin. 

And tywin planned or allowed the red wedding then Cat was killed. 

Did LF do this partially to revenge her death? 

 

Also I have a feeling that LF failed ned and made him die, then he was waiting for Cat being captured and taken as prisoner then he can somehow try to marry her, but he did not think about cat was killed too.

He made himself unmarried for so many years, why? I think he tried to find chance to get rid of ned and then marry his widow Cat. 

After he lost his hope, he finally married lysa. 

He is indeed in love with Cat I think. 

 

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The idea that Littlefinger is in love with Cat is almost undisputed, at least as far as I am aware.

It's not entirely impossible that LF had Joffrey killed to avenge Cat, but I personally think that its quite unlikely. LF stood to gain a great deal from Joffrey's death, and however much he may or may not have loved Cat, I doubt that was his sole, or greatest, prompt to plotting Joffrey's demise. LF is far too careful in his actions to plot the murder of a king, simply because he is bitter.

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The idea that Littlefinger is in love with Cat is almost undisputed, at least as far as I am aware.

Well the type of "love" certainly is. Want, jealously, and spitefulness seem to be more apparent in the man than someone like Bonnifer Hasty, who forswore woman and love forever because he couldn't have the princess he "loved". LF goes out of his way to involve himself in conspiracies that not only kill Cat's husband, but also her children, and strip both her families, the Tullys and Starks, of power.

Either way, we can identify the hairnet that contained the poison that was used to kill Joffrey at the end of ACOK based on how Dontos described it to Sansa. To paraphrase: "It is magic you hold there... Vengeance for your Father... It is home." The plot to kill Joffrey was in place before the death (and resurrection) of Cat, so his motives are certainly not revenge against the Lannisters but for some political gain that he is constantly cooking up. Not to mention that his motives are probably intertwined with involving himself with Sansa  to "correct" how things turned out for him.

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I don't know, Tywin wanted Cat alive to trade her for Jaime, so if anyone's really responsible for her death is Walder

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I don't know, Tywin wanted Cat alive to trade her for Jaime, so if anyone's really responsible for her death is Walder

Agreed.

Also I better LF ends up helping kill a lot of Frey's before this is over. Could be revenge for Cat or helping him gain control over the Riverlands. Likely a combination of both.

Also I have a feeling that LF failed ned and made him die, then he was waiting for Cat being captured and taken as prisoner then he can somehow try to marry her, but he did not think about cat was killed too.

 

No Ned chose Stannis and war and Littlefinger doesn't play for team Stannis or the losing side. Ignore your councilor's advice, insult him, and then rely on him solely for your plan to work. Ned and his honor killed Ned, well helped along by Joffrey of course.

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No, I think given LF screwed her over regarding the dagger and setting her up in AGoT, and he didn't kill Joffrey over the Red Wedding. If he wanted to avenge Cat, I think he would target Walder Frey instead of Joffrey. 

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The idea that LF was in love with Cat in the timeline of the books is very much disputed. Some also dispute that he was ever in love with her to begin with, but personally I do believe he was once.

LF actions in game of thrones were directly against Cat's interests and put her in danger by trying to pin the Lannisters and the Starks against each other, so LF will use the chaos to benefit. The following war cost Catelyn dearly, and if he was to blame Joffrey for Catelyn's fate, then he would definitely have to blame himself first.

Based on his overall actions I don't think Littlefinger cared about protecting Catelyn.

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Lord Wraith...

I have to ask... Is your name related to Stargate?  Just had to ask.

Nope related to Wraith Squadron. Also kudos to anyone who gets that reference.

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No.  The death of Joffrey was planned when LF began negotiating with the Tyrells, before the Red Wedding took place.

LF's behaviour indicates that he was obsessed by Cat, lusted after her, but did not love her.  You don't destroy someone's family if you love them.

I'm sure that if LF had been part of the planning for the Red Wedding, he'd have wanted Cat kept alive to be his concubine.  He could use threats to Sansa to make her have sex with him, or vice versa.  But, there's no love there.

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No.  The death of Joffrey was planned when LF began negotiating with the Tyrells, before the Red Wedding took place.

LF's behaviour indicates that he was obsessed by Cat, lusted after her, but did not love her.  You don't destroy someone's family if you love them.

I'm sure that if LF had been part of the planning for the Red Wedding, he'd have wanted Cat kept alive to be his concubine.  He could use threats to Sansa to make her have sex with him, or vice versa.  But, there's no love there.

I am not so sure he lusted after Catelyn anymore either in the timeline of the books. He did have his eyes on Sansa, so perhaps he lusted after his ideal of teenage Catelyn that in his eyes was denied to him.

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Nope.

Joffrey had nothing to do with the Red Wedding.

Cersei, the only, seriously, the only person in the whole world who sincerely mourned Joffrey, had nothing to do with the Red Wedding, either.

And Littlefinger didn't make a single move against Walder Frey. Who, conversely, had something to do with the Red Wedding.

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The idea that Littlefinger is in love with Cat is almost undisputed, at least as far as I am aware.

It's not entirely impossible that LF had Joffrey killed to avenge Cat, but I personally think that its quite unlikely. LF stood to gain a great deal from Joffrey's death, and however much he may or may not have loved Cat, I doubt that was his sole, or greatest, prompt to plotting Joffrey's demise. LF is far too careful in his actions to plot the murder of a king, simply because he is bitter.

I don't think love is the correct word, more about like creepy obsession.

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I think that LF being in love with Cat when he was a boy is undisputed. Fifteen years later... who knows?

Otherwise, I don't think he had to do with the RW. He was busy with the Tyrrells' affaire.

But the question is: who killed Joff? Or, as important, who was in the plot? Of course, the Tyrrells thought him a monster, and wouldn't be willing to let Margaery at his mercy, but I don't think this could have been done without Tywin knowing. LF wouldn't risk to offend Tywin.

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LF's love for Catelyn is an excuse, not a reason.

Him not being able to "get" Cat is what shaped him to be the amoral man we know now. But he's not working to get her back or anything similar. He just wants to get even with the society that kept him from wanting what he wanted and he believed he deserved. Had been Cat, Lysa or even Edmure, he would be doing the same.

Compare LF with Jon Connington in this case. He might have been positioned way upper than LF in the ladder of society, but still, he couldn't have the man he wanted due to their rules and norms. Yet, he doesn't want to destroy the society for this nor blames it. He blames himself. And yes, he's trying to get even with those who killed Rhaegar, not with society as a whole (not to say he's actually helping Rhaegar's son, not trying to sell him to the highest bidder).

At the end, you have to wonder what is Martin trying to say. LF represents the people who are mad with society because certain people who were shaped by society hurt them. I know a gay man who was bullied in his childhood and he has become very violent: he does wants (or wanted, at least) a total destruction and deconstruction of society, and considered heterosexuals and closeted gays as the enemy, to the point of endorse and encourage acts of violence against them. Had he been given the chance to actually do it, would you believe he had the right? That he was completely justified on his actions?

I suppose LF as a child was actually nice and kind (we don't know this for sure), and he was (in many ways) a victim of their own societal norms. Maybe he could have been a good husband for Cat, who knows. Maybe he could have loved her deeply. Nevertheless, he chose to become destructive in name of a love that has become rather abstract: he was behind the murder of Cat's husband, he worked against Cat's family (he was pro Lannister because it was convenient for him), he's pimping Cat's daughter and he's supporting the family that has replaced Cat's family. He's using Cat's love to justify his actions, but this doesn't include Cat at all: he's mad because he wasnt' able to get Cat, even if Cat was an unwilling participant of his love.

If he had been really doing anything to help or favour Cat, he would have then, for example, tell her that Joffrey was a bad person, that Sansa would need to be warned against him and even instructed on how to survive King's Landing. He never cared whether this chain of actions would end up hurting Cat, so why would he care to avenge her death?

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LF's love for Catelyn is an excuse, not a reason.

Him not being able to "get" Cat is what shaped him to be the amoral man we know now. But he's not working to get her back or anything similar. He just wants to get even with the society that kept him from wanting what he wanted and he believed he deserved. Had been Cat, Lysa or even Edmure, he would be doing the same.

Compare LF with Jon Connington in this case. He might have been positioned way upper than LF in the ladder of society, but still, he couldn't have the man he wanted due to their rules and norms. Yet, he doesn't want to destroy the society for this nor blames it. He blames himself. And yes, he's trying to get even with those who killed Rhaegar, not with society as a whole (not to say he's actually helping Rhaegar's son, not trying to sell him to the highest bidder).

At the end, you have to wonder what is Martin trying to say. LF represents the people who are mad with society because certain people who were shaped by society hurt them. I know a gay man who was bullied in his childhood and he has become very violent: he does wants (or wanted, at least) a total destruction and deconstruction of society, and considered heterosexuals and closeted gays as the enemy, to the point of endorse and encourage acts of violence against them. Had he been given the chance to actually do it, would you believe he had the right? That he was completely justified on his actions?

I suppose LF as a child was actually nice and kind (we don't know this for sure), and he was (in many ways) a victim of their own societal norms. Maybe he could have been a good husband for Cat, who knows. Maybe he could have loved her deeply. Nevertheless, he chose to become destructive in name of a love that has become rather abstract: he was behind the murder of Cat's husband, he worked against Cat's family (he was pro Lannister because it was convenient for him), he's pimping Cat's daughter and he's supporting the family that has replaced Cat's family. He's using Cat's love to justify his actions, but this doesn't include Cat at all: he's mad because he wasnt' able to get Cat, even if Cat was an unwilling participant of his love.

If he had been really doing anything to help or favour Cat, he would have then, for example, tell her that Joffrey was a bad person, that Sansa would need to be warned against him and even instructed on how to survive King's Landing. He never cared whether this chain of actions would end up hurting Cat, so why would he care to avenge her death?

LF did well out of his society. Even if he was at the lowest level of the nobility, he forged connections that enabled him to make his fortune.

Social conventions prevented Lysa from marrying him, but he didn't want Lysa. There's no reason to suppose that Catelyn ever loved him, or wanted to marry him. She liked him, as a teenager, but that's as far as it went.

I think LF would have enjoyed forcing Catelyn into his bed, had she survived the Red Wedding. It would have been his ultimate triumph. He enjoyed trashing her reputation at Court, by bragging that he'd taken her virginity.

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Littlefinger was not trying to kill Joffrey. He was trying to kill Tyrion. The poison was not in the wine. It was in the pie.

You read it here first.

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LF's love for Catelyn is an excuse, not a reason.

Him not being able to "get" Cat is what shaped him to be the amoral man we know now. But he's not working to get her back or anything similar. He just wants to get even with the society that kept him from wanting what he wanted and he believed he deserved. Had been Cat, Lysa or even Edmure, he would be doing the same.

Compare LF with Jon Connington in this case. He might have been positioned way upper than LF in the ladder of society, but still, he couldn't have the man he wanted due to their rules and norms. Yet, he doesn't want to destroy the society for this nor blames it. He blames himself. And yes, he's trying to get even with those who killed Rhaegar, not with society as a whole (not to say he's actually helping Rhaegar's son, not trying to sell him to the highest bidder).

At the end, you have to wonder what is Martin trying to say. LF represents the people who are mad with society because certain people who were shaped by society hurt them. I know a gay man who was bullied in his childhood and he has become very violent: he does wants (or wanted, at least) a total destruction and deconstruction of society, and considered heterosexuals and closeted gays as the enemy, to the point of endorse and encourage acts of violence against them. Had he been given the chance to actually do it, would you believe he had the right? That he was completely justified on his actions?

I suppose LF as a child was actually nice and kind (we don't know this for sure), and he was (in many ways) a victim of their own societal norms. Maybe he could have been a good husband for Cat, who knows. Maybe he could have loved her deeply. Nevertheless, he chose to become destructive in name of a love that has become rather abstract: he was behind the murder of Cat's husband, he worked against Cat's family (he was pro Lannister because it was convenient for him), he's pimping Cat's daughter and he's supporting the family that has replaced Cat's family. He's using Cat's love to justify his actions, but this doesn't include Cat at all: he's mad because he wasnt' able to get Cat, even if Cat was an unwilling participant of his love.

If he had been really doing anything to help or favour Cat, he would have then, for example, tell her that Joffrey was a bad person, that Sansa would need to be warned against him and even instructed on how to survive King's Landing. He never cared whether this chain of actions would end up hurting Cat, so why would he care to avenge her death?

there is no doubt about his love in Cat, at least in his youth. 

Considering his ability and Brandon's ability, it took tremendous amount of desperation and bravery to duel with him for Cat. 

I would say he is more brave at that moment than anybody I read in this book. 

By the way, he refused to yield to Brandon, that is why he was badly injured. Only Cat saved him from death. 

Sure, he is selfish. He did not try to help sansa or ned. But his love in Cat is another thing. There is no rule that if you love a woman, you must love or be nice to her husband and her family. 

I am sure if it is cat in the court and she was bullied by Joff, LF would try very hard to protect her. 

 

 

 

 

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I think the part of LF is overstated. After all, what does he actually do?

My take is that he was faring pretty well. He was Lysa's lover and SR's father. When Jon Arryn knew Jaime was the father of Cersei's children, Lysa and LF might have planned his death, for fear he might discover them as well.

It's the other people who look for their own doom. I'll elaborate further later on.

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