Did LF murder Joff to revenge Cat?

[dornishdame]

Regardless of his feelings for Cat in the past - something I think he plays on more than anything else, just as he plays on Lysa's historic feelings for him - Littlefinger's loyalty is to Littlefinger alone.  And the pragmatist in him knows that Cat and Lysa are the past; if he wants real, lasting power, then he needs to ally himself with the next generation - hence his interest in possessing Sansa.  A pliant and pretty younger Cat. 

I doubt his split with the Lannisters was vengeance for the Red Wedding. If we look at Clash, the Freys start to get skittish in Arya X, when news filters through of the Sack of Winterfell and the Battle of the Blackwater - 

"Stannis lost," Ser Hosteen said bluntly. "Wishing it were otherwise will not make it so. King Robb must make his peace with the Lannisters. He must put off his crown and bend the knee, little as he may like it."

In the same chapter, we have mention of another letter from Fat Walda at the Twins - 

"There is a letter from your lady wife." Qyburn pulled a roll of parchment from his sleeve.

And finally, we have Arya discovering Elmar Frey in tears, as he will no longer wed a princess; clearly Walda's letter contained news of the marriage of Robb Stark and Jeyne Westerling. 

"My princess," he sobbed. "We've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. My lord father says I'll need to marry someone else, or be a septon."

All of the above in Arya X occurs after the Blackwater, the battle that signifies the alliance between the Tyrells and the Lannisters - an alliance that was brokered by Littlefinger.  He tells us himself in Storm, in Sansa VI, how it evolved - 

When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

"Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras's inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract. Who better to protect his daughter than her splendid knightly brother? And it relieved him of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras's case.

"Be that as it may. Lady Olenna was not about to let Joff harm her precious darling granddaughter, but unlike her son she also realized that under all his flowers and finery, Ser Loras is as hot-tempered as Jaime Lannister. Toss Joffrey, Margaery, and Loras in a pot, and you've got the makings for kingslayer stew. The old woman understood something else as well. Her son was determined to make Margaery a queen, and for that he needed a king . . . but he did not need Joffrey. We shall have another wedding soon, wait and see. Margaery will marry Tommen. She'll keep her queenly crown and her maidenhead, neither of which she especially wants, but what does that matter? The great western alliance will be preserved . . . for a time, at least."

The timeline clearly establishes Littlefinger's alliance with the Tyrells as existing prior to the Blackwater (in fact, we may possibly date Olenna and Littlefinger's plot as early as Highgarden).  Given that the Freys do not explicitly state their intention to abandon Robb until after the battle, and after they are informed that Robb has reneged on his marriage agreement, the Red Wedding cannot have been conceived when Littlefinger plotted Joffrey's murder with Olenna.  

I would also add that Littlefinger is a cautious gambler.  While he knew nothing of Robert Baratheon, he came to court under the patronage of Jon Arryn - someone he knew to be honorable.  The thing about honorable men, is that they are more easily manipulated and more easily read.  In Ned Stark, Littlefinger had more of the same.  The Lannisters, though not honorable, were the sort of people he could deal with as they were as pragmatic as Littlefinger himself.  Joffrey, however, was unpredictable.  And long-term, Littlefinger could not entrust the power he had spent years building up, to someone described by his own blood as Aerys III. Joffrey had to go to ensure Littlefinger's long term survival in the Game.  And his alliance with the Tyrells enabled him to get rid of Joffrey in a way that he was not wholly responsible, and ensured that his co-conspirators had good reason to keep quiet about his involvement in Joffrey's death - he knew everything about their actions. 

Littlefinger did not think of Cat's death when he plotted Joffrey's; it was his own survival that was at the forefront of his mind. 

[SeanF]

there is no doubt about his love in Cat, at least in his youth.

Considering his ability and Brandon's ability, it took tremendous amount of desperation and bravery to duel with him for Cat.

I would say he is more brave at that moment than anybody I read in this book.

By the way, he refused to yield to Brandon, that is why he was badly injured. Only Cat saved him from death.

Sure, he is selfish. He did not try to help sansa or ned. But his love in Cat is another thing. There is no rule that if you love a woman, you must love or be nice to her husband and her family.

I am sure if it is cat in the court and she was bullied by Joff, LF would try very hard to protect her.

I beg to differ. If you truly love someone, her happiness should matter to you, even if that love is unrequited. You can't really love someone, and plot to destroy her husband, and bring war to her family. And you don't go round bragging about taking her virginity.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

 

I beg to differ. If you truly love someone, her happiness should matter to you, even if that love is unrequited. You can't really love someone, and plot to destroy her husband, and bring war to her family. And you don't go round bragging about taking her virginity.

I think @purple-eyes meant when he was a child, but still, we don't know that for certain. It's like saying Sansa's love for Joffrey was real. I mean, for her it was real love, but we adults know her love wasn't as real as she thought.

[purple-eyes]

 

I beg to differ. If you truly love someone, her happiness should matter to you, even if that love is unrequited. You can't really love someone, and plot to destroy her husband, and bring war to her family. And you don't go round bragging about taking her virginity.

Normally not, but LF is a twisted person. He was jealous and he hated Brandon Stark and Ned Stark. (Brandon injured him very badly). He even hated Edmure for just serving Brandon during the duel. And he could only get Cat if Ned stark was got rid of (they do not have anything like divorce). So I guess he could love and desire her, but hate and want to destroy her husband at the same time. 

 

 

[Julia H.]

Normally not, but LF is a twisted person. He was jealous and he hated Brandon Stark and Ned Stark. (Brandon injured him very badly). He even hated Edmure for just serving Brandon during the duel. And he could only get Cat if Ned stark was got rid of (they do not have anything like divorce). So I guess he could love and desire her, but hate and want to destroy her husband at the same time. 

 

 

The problem with this is that destroying her family meant destroying Cat, too. She would have been unhappy and miserable even if she had survived. At this point the question is what we mean by love. Can the meaning of love include totally selfish lust and a self-centred desire to possess or do we reserve this word for a different, essentially selfless feeling associated with forgiveness and with the willingness to sacrifice your own interest for the interest of your loved one(s)?

[purple-eyes]

The problem with this is that destroying her family meant destroying Cat, too. She would have been unhappy and miserable even if she had survived. At this point the question is what we mean by love. Can the meaning of love include totally selfish lust and a self-centred desire to possess or do we reserve this word for a different, essentially selfless feeling associated with forgiveness and with the willingness to sacrifice your own interest for the interest of your loved one(s)?

i guess it can be called love, just a dark, crazy, selfish and cruel love. 

like shades of red color, pink, red, crimson, etc. 

[SeanF]

The problem with this is that destroying her family meant destroying Cat, too. She would have been unhappy and miserable even if she had survived. At this point the question is what we mean by love. Can the meaning of love include totally selfish lust and a self-centred desire to possess or do we reserve this word for a different, essentially selfless feeling associated with forgiveness and with the willingness to sacrifice your own interest for the interest of your loved one(s)?

I suppose he could somehow persuade himself that if he destroyed Ned, and held Sansa captive, and held immense power, Catelyn would acknowledge that he was a great man, who she should have married.

[sweetsunray]

 

I suppose LF as a child was actually nice and kind (we don't know this for sure), and he was (in many ways) a victim of their own societal norms. Maybe he could have been a good husband for Cat, who knows. Maybe he could have loved her deeply. Nevertheless, he chose to become destructive in name of a love that has become rather abstract: he was behind the murder of Cat's husband, he worked against Cat's family (he was pro Lannister because it was convenient for him), he's pimping Cat's daughter and he's supporting the family that has replaced Cat's family. He's using Cat's love to justify his actions, but this doesn't include Cat at all: he's mad because he wasnt' able to get Cat, even if Cat was an unwilling participant of his love.

If he had been really doing anything to help or favour Cat, he would have then, for example, tell her that Joffrey was a bad person, that Sansa would need to be warned against him and even instructed on how to survive King's Landing. He never cared whether this chain of actions would end up hurting Cat, so why would he care to avenge her death?

Actually the personal thought Cat has about LF in aGoT when meeting him again in the brothel indicates it's more than just a social formation story, but personality related. He has her taken to the brothel and she confronts him about it, and he states the typical spath lie - "I never intended/wanted to..." These are lies where pathological liars such as narcissists or psychopaths use aboslute denial words (such as 'never') to deny responsibility of the consequences of their actions. They do something harmful/wrong/insulting, but then deny it was intended that way... but you'd have to be an imbecile to not realize that having a very highborn woman escorted to a brothel is not an insult. And LF is no imbecile, and he is very much aware that it is insulting. When he puts on his mask of contriteness on when giving the lie, she remembers he would always get himself in some mischief asa boy, but then put on his "I'm so sorry, I'll never do it again" face (a mask) on, but of course will do it again. So, we do have an indicator that LF was always like this, even as a child. And it's one of the first indicators given to us at his introduction to the reader.

You are correct he is angry at society, but Tyrion's line about imaginary slights with Cersei applies to LF too. They are called narcissistic injuries, and are not so much a result of upbringing as they are the result from the personality. Another personality would not have grown up loathing Starks and upperclass for being brought up as a ward with the LP of the Riverlands. And if LF had been Hoster's true son with all the benefits, he would still grow up vindictive and petty towards people, because people with narcissistic features (and narcissism is an aspect of psychopaths) will always feel slighted by someone or something.

But I agree with the general conlusion that LF did not care about getting Cat into problems in the first place, so he doesn't care about her dying either. Indeed, the plans of Joffrey's murder were already in motion from the moment LF brought in the Tyrells. Sansa is approached by Dontos in aCoK, while LF is working on the deal to bring them over to the Lannisters. She gets the hairnet as soon as the Tyrells are in town, and she's not to be smuggled out before the wedding. This happens long before the RW.

I think LF wanted Joffrey killed for 2 reasons: 1) chaos 2) at some point Joffrey will become impossible to manipulate. He's too unpredictable about who he'll favor. Ultimately Joffrey is a liability for anyone.

[bemused]

I agree with much of what sweetsunray has to say, but I'll go even farther..

First, I think we can ask whether LF's childish love for Cat stemmed from the fact that if she reciprocated, it would elevate him. But I am willing to allow that he believed it was real love at that point.

However, in the timeline of the story, I see nothing but a desire to punish Cat, to hurt her for not reciprocating. I think the one disappointment for him is that he couldn't let her know it as she was dying. He would have liked to reveal his handiwork to her as he did to Ned.. when it was too late. (ETA: Tywin, Roose and Walder stole that pleasure from him.)

This is part of my fear for Sansa, that he will not only want to make her a substitute for Cat in possessing her.. but in completing Cat's punishment.

(ETA: I suppose it's love spelled r-e-v-e-n-g-e.) 

[finger]

To the adults around: judging how real a young love can be, it might be a thorny thing. LF should have thought it was real anyway, since he seeked death when he lost it.

Eventually, he healed fom his wounds, and he grew up having learned a lesson the hard way. After that, he learned to use his own strengh to thrive in society.

Lysa was not the happiest bride when she had to marry an old man, whom LF happened to be a vasal, It's no wonder both searched some confort in each other.

LF had developed some abilities for social success and this connection gave him the kick to advance.

That  stated, and even though he hoarded a full load of resent, he had made a living and I doubt he cared much for Starks or Tullys. My take is that, as hinted in some passages of the books, SR was taking after him. Jon Arryn was researching about similarities among th Baratheons, so he might  as well start with his own house. This was dangerous, and he'd best get rid of Jon Arryn and keep SR out of sight. That's why he planned Arryn's death with Lysa. Blaming the  Lanisters was just a smoke courtain.

The rest is oter people's mistakes. He didn't tell Jaime to kill Bran, or Joff to hire a catspaw to finish the task, or Cat to take hold of Tyrion,etc  They all did their own harm. LF just tried to escape unscathed and if he could take a little advantge, so be it.

Of course he helped Tywin to barter an alliance with the Tyrells. He  couldn't expet nothing good from Stannis. But he had nothing more that anyone else against that stupid asshole of Joff. If he participated, I guess it must have been at Tywin command. Accordingly, he knew that remaining in KL meant death, so he fled to the Vale. On his part, Tywin snowed him over with honours, since he couldn't kill him easily.

All his moves have been defensive, And I don't think he had  anything to do with the RW.

[Butterfreak]

Joffrey really had nothing to do with Catelyn's death.  Littlefinger had plenty of motive other than that; Joffrey dying divided the Lannisters, punished Tyrion and got rid of him, got him in with the Tyrells, and allowed him to spirit away a possibly widowed Sansa. I doubt revenge had any play in it.

[Joey Crows]

Aren't we lead to believe LF's motivations are about creating chaos to the status quo as a result of his being looked down upon early in life by the Tully family? While I don't doubt he loved Cat as a youth, that is part of why he has this current life philosophy, I feel at this point his actions are more about disrupting the noble houses in order to either place himself in a position of the highest power, or simply making sure everything is blown up in a sense.

[bemused]

 

 

The timeline clearly establishes Littlefinger's alliance with the Tyrells as existing prior to the Blackwater (in fact, we may possibly date Olenna and Littlefinger's plot as early as Highgarden).  Given that the Freys do not explicitly state their intention to abandon Robb until after the battle, and after they are informed that Robb has reneged on his marriage agreement, the Red Wedding cannot have been conceived when Littlefinger plotted Joffrey's murder with Olenna.  

I would also add that Littlefinger is a cautious gambler.  While he knew nothing of Robert Baratheon, he came to court under the patronage of Jon Arryn - someone he knew to be honorable.  The thing about honorable men, is that they are more easily manipulated and more easily read.  In Ned Stark, Littlefinger had more of the same.  The Lannisters, though not honorable, were the sort of people he could deal with as they were as pragmatic as Littlefinger himself.  Joffrey, however, was unpredictable.  And long-term, Littlefinger could not entrust the power he had spent years building up, to someone described by his own blood as Aerys III. Joffrey had to go to ensure Littlefinger's long term survival in the Game.  And his alliance with the Tyrells enabled him to get rid of Joffrey in a way that he was not wholly responsible, and ensured that his co-conspirators had good reason to keep quiet about his involvement in Joffrey's death - he knew everything about their actions. 

Littlefinger did not think of Cat's death when he plotted Joffrey's; it was his own survival that was at the forefront of his mind. 

This is very clearly laid out.. However, LF did know that Lysa's letter to Cat would set the Starks against the Lannisters, and since it didn't arrive by Raven, it must have been planned and sent well in advance. LF might well have known that Robert was going to ask Ned to be his hand by that time, and Robert might not have needed anyone to plant the idea, but he might have received some encouragement, at least. It was very predictable that Ned would want to look into the circumstances of the death of a man who had been a second father to him.

By lying about the dagger, he knew he was provoking some sort of Stark action against Tyrion.

He pushed Joffrey toward beheading Ned.

Joffrey would no doubt be doomed by his own unpredictability.. but LF was managing to play him pretty well, up until his death. Surely there would have been a way to avoid implicating Sansa.(Probably, the hairnet was meant to be found.) Even Tyrion had to suspect her, when he previously thought of her as child-like and innocent.

All of these actions were going to affect Cat and none could end happily for her.

[house of dayne]

Littlefinger is the last surviving Reyne and sworn to the destruction of the Lannister dynasty. (tin foil hat squarely;y in place)

[finger]

This is very clearly laid out.. However, LF did know that Lysa's letter to Cat would set the Starks against the Lannisters, and since it didn't arrive by Raven, it must have been planned and sent well in advance. LF might well have known that Robert was going to ask Ned to be his hand by that time, and Robert might not have needed anyone to plant the idea, but he might have received some encouragement, at least. It was very predictable that Ned would want to look into the circumstances of the death of a man who had been a second father to him.

By lying about the dagger, he knew he was provoking some sort of Stark action against Tyrion.

He pushed Joffrey toward beheading Ned.

Joffrey would no doubt be doomed by his own unpredictability.. but LF was managing to play him pretty well, up until his death. Surely there would have been a way to avoid implicating Sansa.(Probably, the hairnet was meant to be found.) Even Tyrion had to suspect her, when he previously thought of her as child-like and innocent.

All of these actions were going to affect Cat and none could end happily for her.

Did he? I don't remember.

Joffrey was crazy, and everybody wanted him dead. I'd bet it's the Lady Olena who sentenced him. But, please read Tywin's musings just before and just after his death. It was a plot, and so big that forced LF to flee from KL. He was an uncomfortable witness,

On the other hand, he had Arryn murdered for his own interest, that is, to avoid the consequences of his discovering that SR was LF's son. That's why he sent the boy out of sight. Blaming the Lannisters was only very convenient.

Only that, when killing Arryn, he lost his protector. He couldn't know that Robert would name Ned as his hand, but he couldn't trust the Lannisters if they became too powerful. Look what happened to Barristan. So he moved about the higher houses to put them against the Lannisters. Not only Starks, he knew that Stannis was aware that Cersei's children weren't Robert's. And it's only when he knew this that he felt in the position of eliminating Arryn.

Lannisters and Starks were just too willing to kill each other. Their own hatred prevented them to see who'd killed Arryn. And this is something that puzzles me: Cersei and Jaime knew it wasn't their make, buy they don't seem to try to find out who did it, only Ned does, and he fails.

It's somewhat convoluted, but Grrm has wanted so. There are interviews comparing the story with medieval politics, full of plots, murders and betrayals.

[Danelle]

 

Did he? I don't remember.

 

In COK Varys implies to Tyrion that someone else urged Joffrey to order Ned's execution. His words are regarded as a hint, indirectly blaming LF for Ned's death.

 “Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor’s Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever-so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark, do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or… another?”
Tyrion cocked his head sideways. “Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?”
Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”
“So power is a mummer’s trick?”
“A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

[Julia H.]

To the adults around: judging how real a young love can be, it might be a thorny thing. LF should have thought it was real anyway, since he seeked death when he lost it.

Eventually, he healed fom his wounds, and he grew up having learned a lesson the hard way. After that, he learned to use his own strengh to thrive in society.

Lysa was not the happiest bride when she had to marry an old man, whom LF happened to be a vasal, It's no wonder both searched some confort in each other.

LF had developed some abilities for social success and this connection gave him the kick to advance.

That  stated, and even though he hoarded a full load of resent, he had made a living and I doubt he cared much for Starks or Tullys. My take is that, as hinted in some passages of the books, SR was taking after him. Jon Arryn was researching about similarities among th Baratheons, so he might  as well start with his own house. This was dangerous, and he'd best get rid of Jon Arryn and keep SR out of sight. That's why he planned Arryn's death with Lysa. Blaming the  Lanisters was just a smoke courtain.

The rest is oter people's mistakes. He didn't tell Jaime to kill Bran, or Joff to hire a catspaw to finish the task, or Cat to take hold of Tyrion,etc  They all did their own harm. LF just tried to escape unscathed and if he could take a little advantge, so be it.

Of course he helped Tywin to barter an alliance with the Tyrells. He  couldn't expet nothing good from Stannis. But he had nothing more that anyone else against that stupid asshole of Joff. If he participated, I guess it must have been at Tywin command. Accordingly, he knew that remaining in KL meant death, so he fled to the Vale. On his part, Tywin snowed him over with honours, since he couldn't kill him easily.

All his moves have been defensive, And I don't think he had  anything to do with the RW.

He had to be "defensive" to cover up his own mischief, and his method of self-defense resulted in the deaths of many other people. The "smoke curtain" of blaming the Lannisters eventually led to war. But not even self-defense explains why he implicated Tyrion in the murder attempt. In that case, there was nothing he personally had to cover up, he didn't have to protect himself, yet, he took the opportunity to increase the tension by slander. That strongly indicates that his motivation was a bit more than pure self-defense.

 

Lannisters and Starks were just too willing to kill each other. Their own hatred prevented them to see who'd killed Arryn. And this is something that puzzles me: Cersei and Jaime knew it wasn't their make, buy they don't seem to try to find out who did it, only Ned does, and he fails.

It's somewhat convoluted, but Grrm has wanted so. There are interviews comparing the story with medieval politics, full of plots, murders and betrayals.

Cersei and Jaime simply didn't care why Arryn had died. They were just happy that he was dead. Robert didn't think it was murder, so Cersei and Jaime didn't necessarily think it was murder either. Lysa and Littlefinger had done a good job passing off the murder as a sudden illness, therefore further "self-defense" probably wasn't even necessary. Ned and Cat only thought of murder when they read Lysa's letter. They hadn't even been there so they could only rely on what the eyewitnesses said. They would never have thought of suspecting Lysa or Littlefinger of murder. It wasn't their hatred for the Lannisters that blinded them, it was their trust in Lysa, who was, after all, Cat's sister and the widow. Cat can also be blamed for trusting Littlefinger - it was because she still thought of him as a childhood friend. It was not so much hatred but love that blinded them. 

[finger]

It seem an answer of mine is lost. Well, I'll sum up.

I see your points, and I share them, but with some nuances.

Thank you for the splendid quote. But Varys hints that LF is responsible of Ned's death. This is true, but it doesn't imply he advised Joffrey to behead him. Besides, giving advise to Joffrey looks pretty dangerous.

If, and it's a big if, SR was LF's son and took after him, they needed an excuse to take the boy out of sight. Lysa pretended to flee out of fear of the Lannisters, who had killed her husband. This is why I say they were a convenient curtain of smoke.

LF didn't plan the dagger issue. He invented a story to get acquitted, just in case someone related him with the dagger.

I'm not sure who knew about Arryn's murder.And this is an interesting topic to discuss. Still, I keep wondering why Cersei and Jaime never tried to find out whence this unexpected help came. And it's the same with the dagger.

Of course LF actions were in roots of the war, but it was caused actually by the stupid, violent reactions of other people. He didn't throw Bran out of a tower, nor had him stabbed, nor he took Tyrion over, nor he had Robert murdered.

[Julia H.]

 

1. If, and it's a big if, SR was LF's son and took after him, they needed an excuse to take the boy out of sight. 2. Lysa pretended to flee out of fear of the Lannisters, who had killed her husband. This is why I say they were a convenient curtain of smoke.

3. LF didn't plan the dagger issue. He invented a story to get acquitted, just in case someone related him with the dagger.

I'm not sure who knew about Arryn's murder.And this is an interesting topic to discuss. Still, I keep wondering why Cersei and Jaime never tried to find out whence this unexpected help came. And it's the same with the dagger.

4. Of course LF actions were in roots of the war, but it was caused actually by the stupid, violent reactions of other people. He didn't throw Bran out of a tower, nor had him stabbed, nor he took Tyrion over, nor he had Robert murdered.

1. If SR is LF's son, then LF has a rather cavalier attitude to his son's future as he is making plans based on his death. He is not exactly a loving father. (But then should I be surprised at all?)

2. Lysa was perfectly believable as the crazy mother driven to madness by grief who didn't want her sickly son to be fostered with another family so she fled. 

3. How could Littlefinger be accused of having a hand in the attempt on Bran's life when he wasn't even in Winterfell? Everyone knows that a dagger can be stolen. On the other hand, the lie that Tyrion had won it from him would have been quite easy to discover if Ned had thought of checking it out. Renly unwittingly unveiled the truth during the Hand's tourney, only Ned wasn't paying attention. LF basically prevented a very unlikely risk by taking a significantly greater risk. Based on what I know of him, it seems improbable that he did such a thing without a further goal.

4. No, he didn't do any of those things, but he was a skilled manipulator and he knew exactly what he was doing. His responsibility for the war cannot be denied. 

[bemused]

In COK Varys implies to Tyrion that someone else urged Joffrey to order Ned's execution. His words are regarded as a hint, indirectly blaming LF for Ned's death.

Yes, but no doubt I should have said, he probably pushed Joff into beheading Ned..

There really isn't much doubt in my mind, after he reveals to Sansa how he manipulated Joff into hiring poor Penny and Groat to joust at the wedding, and the way he made sure Olenna knew Joff was a monster, and so on. Of course he couldn't know how far Joff would extend Tyrion's humiliation, but he could trust that Joff would rub it in.

Joffrey's words at Ned's beheading, strongly suggest to me that there has been a voice in his ear asserting the weakness of women and how a King must be strong and make his own decisions..

“My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father.” He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, “But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!” 

LF manipulates people by suggestion. He boasts that Mace thinks it was his own idea to induct Loras into the KG, when in fact, LF planted the idea.

For me it's not a stretch to see him behind Joffrey's decision.