Did LF murder Joff to revenge Cat?

[finger]

51 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

But as far as Tywin was aware, Littlefinger had left KL weeks before, and had already arrived at the Vale. So what would there be for Tywin to act on? 

I feel I can't make myself understood. Of course, Tywin couldn't do anything to LF because he was in the Vale. But I don't think his anger was extreme. Like he didn't know the details but he expected the outcome.

LF had made huge services to Tywin and he had been rewarded with the Paramount Lordship of the Riverlands. But, even though Tywin might have allowed Joffrey's murder, in the long run he'd punish the author. He can't let people get used to go around killing Lannisters. LF knows that since then on, KL is barred for him, at least until Tywin dies. It's somewhat contradictory indeed.

Edit. It's supposed that Tywin, LF and the Tyrells are together in the plot. They know about each other but they have to conceal it the best they can. As a start, they must not quarrel in the open.

[Young Nan]

I don't think LF WANTS to avenge Cat.  His entire storyline seems to be a tale of him giving the middle finger to all of the highborn people who spurned him because of his lower birth.  I think that it's the opposite- he wanted to take revenge against Cat, and the Starks and Tullys in general, for rejecting him when he used to love her as a boy.  I think he hoped to bring her and her family low while making his way to the top. 

[finger]

7 minutes ago, Young Nan said:

I don't think LF WANTS to avenge Cat.  His entire storyline seems to be a tale of him giving the middle finger to all of the highborn people who spurned him because of his lower birth.  I think that it's the opposite- he wanted to take revenge against Cat, and the Starks and Tullys in general, for rejecting him when he used to love her as a boy.  I think he hoped to bring her and her family low while making his way to the top. 

Not really. LF had always worked in his own benefit, but on the surface he was an Arryn man. Once he's dead, he lacks supporters, so it's in his own interest that the high houses are at odds and leave him be in the meantime.

If any, I feel he fears the Lannisters. He even gives Ned good advice, that he wouldn't listen (Help Joff, be the regent, marry Cersei's children with yours, gather power, you can get rid of Joff in time if need be.)When he knows that Ned plans such a suicidal move as to call Stannis to come in force to KL, he just saves himself. It's the Starks who make their own doom.

[Young Nan]

39 minutes ago, finger said:

Not really. LF had always worked in his own benefit, but on the surface he was an Arryn man. Once he's dead, he lacks supporters, so it's in his own interest that the high houses are at odds and leave him be in the meantime.

If any, I feel he fears the Lannisters. He even gives Ned good advice, that he wouldn't listen (Help Joff, be the regent, marry Cersei's children with yours, gather power, you can get rid of Joff in time if need be.)When he knows that Ned plans such a suicidal move as to call Stannis to come in force to KL, he just saves himself. It's the Starks who make their own doom.

But he orchestrated the entire thing.  His advice to Ned wasn't sincere, the whole thing was part of his game - he started it. Ned would never have brought any doom to himself if not for Littlefinger's meddling.  If he loved Cat so much, why instigate a war between the Starks and Lannisters?  Also, he doesn't seem to fear the Lannisters at all, he uses them as far as he needs to, and kidnaps Sansa right from under their nose.  

[John Suburbs]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 1:10 PM, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Fine, let's agree to accept Joffrey's expert opinion as, as you put it, "fact":

“See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. “Dry, though. Needs washing down.”

The pie was good, just dry. Joffrey said so. So, no poison in the pie. Did he give such an endorsement to the wine? Nope, he did not. Your own methodology.

But, seriously, this thread isn't supposed to be about that. If you want to promote your bold theory, just open a separate thread for it, instead of hijacking one about Littlefinger.

Lol, the poison dissolves in wine, which means it absorbs available moisture in order to break down on a molecular level.

The pie is dry, and that's all? No possible way that the poison was absorbing the moisture in the pie and that is why it was dry?

It's all about connecting dots and ruling out things that may look obvious but upon closer examination turn out to be false. Unless you assume magic is at play or the strangler has properties that exist nowhere in text or in the real world, the poison could not have been in the wine for the many, many incontrovertible, scientific reasons I've stated.

And if you scroll back, my first post was in direct response to the OP's question: Did LF murder Joff to avenge Cat? Answer: No, Joff's death was an accident. The real target was Tyrion.

The only reason this issue keeps spinning out of control is people insist that their completely imaginary reasons for explaining all the inconsistencies in the wine theory are more valid than both the text and hard, scientific fact.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Dude, believe whatever you want to believe. I find your explanations lacking, the assumptions too many, and the textual support that you've shown thus far is minimum. The wine-scenario has plenty of text supporting it, and only few assumptions need to be made, and thus, I'll keep believing in that one until we get new info that might imply another scenario.

I suggest we agree to disagree on this topic.

 

Just one thing I did want to mention... With the marriage of Margaery to either Joffrey or Tommen, the Tyrells have made themselves the one Kingdom which can count on support from the throne. They are the Kingdom least likely to see their lands disappear in Tywin's possession. You take lands and wealth from those who have defied you, not those who support you. The Reyne-Tarbeck situation is, therefore, not at all comparable. The Reyne's and Tarbecks had made a mock of House Lannister, defied them, on multiple occasions. That's why they were destroyed. House Lannister destroys its enemies, and House Tyrell is not their enemy.. As far as they know.

 

But as far as Tywin was aware, Littlefinger had left KL weeks before, and had already arrived at the Vale. So what would there be for Tywin to act on? 

The Reach and the Westerlands have a largely undefined border that stretches from the Sunset Sea to the Blackwater. This area is ripe for conflict, which ideally would be settled by the king. But if things break down, as they have now, and it comes to war between Highgarden and CR, would you rather fight the 20k or so that Tywin was able to marshal at the beginning of the war or the 100k+ that he will get from all his new holdings?

All of the realms were either loyal supporters of RB or bent the knee afterward to join the king's peace. And a mere 14 years later, we had the westerlands invading the riverlands, with catastrophic results for the riverlands. So kingdoms are fine, right up until the moment lines of succession become unclear and rebellion breaks out among the houses. Lady O is not taking this action just to make things more comfortable for a decade or so. She is thinking about the thousand-year balance of power that has suddenly shifted, and she will do anything to prevent it from happening. This is the kind of situation that calls for immediate and drastic action, like murdering a high lord at a wedding. Joffrey smacking Margy around someday is not even in the same league, as long as he gets a son on her.

 

But I do want to thank you for helping me clarify a few things about the dilution fantasy:

First, it is completely idiotic for someone to choose a poison that can be reduced from fatal strangulation to a slight kof by an 8-10x dilution factor and then deliver the poison in a vessel that holds eight to 10 times a normal goblet. Utterly absurd.

Secondly, the text clearly disproves the dilution theory because Cressen sees normal wine in the bottom of his glass, while Joffrey's wine, which has been thoroughly shaken up by the time he drinks, is deep purple at the end. So again, incontrovertible physical evidence trumps wishful thinking.

 

Best of luck to you. The reveal will likely come out in Winds, and the whole thing will be explained nice and simple.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, finger said:

I feel I can't make myself understood. Of course, Tywin couldn't do anything to LF because he was in the Vale. But I don't think his anger was extreme. Like he didn't know the details but he expected the outcome.

LF had made huge services to Tywin and he had been rewarded with the Paramount Lordship of the Riverlands. But, even though Tywin might have allowed Joffrey's murder, in the long run he'd punish the author. He can't let people get used to go around killing Lannisters. LF knows that since then on, KL is barred for him, at least until Tywin dies. It's somewhat contradictory indeed.

Edit. It's supposed that Tywin, LF and the Tyrells are together in the plot. They know about each other but they have to conceal it the best they can. As a start, they must not quarrel in the open.

If both Tywin and Lady O (or Mace) wanted Joffrey dead so Margy could marry Tommen, then they would have simply killed J off in some other way before the formal betrothal was made. Why subject Margy to widowhood yet again and why bother with this convoluted plot with crystals and hairnets and a grand public assassination when they could easily have killed him in his sleep or pushed him off a rampart?