Would you like an AFFC/ADWD like split of Winds?

[Good Guy Garlan]

You often give the impression you know where the story is headed. Did it cross your mind that Brienne, the Ironborn, and the Dornish characters as well as Melisandre and Connington were introduced as POVs for a reason? A reason that has to do with the planned story for the later books.

If it turns out that Brienne and all the other new POVs die soon then their stories in AFfC and ADwD were indeed a huge waste of time. But I'd be surprised if that was the case.

It may turn out that some of those characters are actually more important to the plot now than some of the core POVs from AGoT.

I totally agree that we don't know where Martin's going with a bunch of these characters and they might be relevant down the line. 

However - and I'm talking specifically about Brienne here - like Mr. Plinkett said in one of his reviews, you should only show characters when they're doing something important. And that's only logical, as Spock would say. That's the reason why we never see Ramsay taking a bath, getting dressed, brushing his hair, breaking his fast, etc, because that's not important. Watching him flaying and killing people is what's important. So it turns out GRRM gave us a whole book of Brienne not doing important stuff. And I personally don't think most characters she encounters in Feast are going to play this huge important part in the endgame. What's the importance of Ser Creighton and his pal, of Nimble Dick, of Shagwell and the two Mummers, of Biter and Rorge, of the dwarf Septon, even of Septon Meribald? None, even if I don't know how the story ends, I bet they're just window dressing. That's not to say she doesn't run into a handful of seemingly relevant fellows like Randyll Tarly, the Mad Mouse, the High Sparrow, etc. But it wasn't strictly necessary for Brienne to show us those characters in her POV, since we actually see them through other POVs eventually. And it's not like GRRM couldn't have had Jaime running into them during his journey through the Riverlands. GRRM didn't really need most of the Brienne chapters, I wager. The only truly important chapter of hers is her last one! GRRM could've easily benched her for a while like he did Theon. He didn't show us Theon's torture in detail, right? He brought Theon back when he once again became important to the plot. 

Another problem I have with this argument is that it really doesn't matter if a character or POV is important if the way it is written or depicted is not interesting or engaging. Like, you could tell me a Goodbrother is going to sit the Iron Throne at the end and I would still complain that the Damphair's first chapter is dull as all hell. For example, I think Dorne is probably going to play a big role in the story, and yet I think the way GRRM handled that whole plotline left much to be desired. In my opinion, of course. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

Chekhov's Gun applies - the idea that if you're putting something in the book, it must serve a narrative purpose. If it doesn't serve a narrative purpose, don't put it in there. Are we to somehow expect that each and every bloated component of AFFC and ADWD is somehow of narrative importance? I have a very hard time believing that, especially when you have characters like Quentyn. 

Also, we can only go with what is in front of us right now. If Martin fails to write another book, we are left with what we have - and what we have is bloat. If a subsequent book retrospectively turns ADWD into a work of genius, I'll revise my opinion then. Not before.

[Mr Fixit]

Good Guy Garlan has the gist of it. Even if many of those characters from AFfC turn out to be important or at least interesting down the line, is there a reason we have to read through all those new PoVs? Is Oberyn not an important and interesting character? Or Tywin, Robb, and countless others, yet we don't get their chapters, do we? 

[Lord Varys]

AFfC sort of works as a second first novel. It introduces new characters and sets the stage for the new story while wrapping some of the old stories left dangling from ASoS. It may turn out that Brienne's is going to become important for her future role - in light of the fact that we don't know what that will be it is really difficult to say.

I also tend to consider Aeron's first chapter to be rather insignificant but I'm really biased against that guy. I don't like the Ironborn very much, and I don't like religious nuts at all. But there might be a reason why we have to understand how Aeron's mind work. What we get from his chapters is an understanding how his mind works and how he deludes himself into hearing his god's voice (the idea of the Kingsmoot is his own you can really see how his mind is associations he then attributes to the voice of the Drowned God). That may be important if/when Aeron actually has religious/supernatural experiences. Remember that we left Aeron after the Kingsmoot in a state of severe doubt where the the iron hinges completely replaced the voice of the Drowned God he thought he had heard.

Good Guy Garlan has the gist of it. Even if many of those characters from AFfC turn out to be important or at least interesting down the line, is there a reason we have to read through all those new PoVs? Is Oberyn not an important and interesting character? Or Tywin, Robb, and countless others, yet we don't get their chapters, do we? 

Nope, neither Oberyn nor Tywin or Robb were important characters. They all died. And there were most likely supposed to die earlier than they actually did.

[Mr Fixit]

 

Nope, neither Oberyn nor Tywin or Robb were important characters. They all died. And there were most likely supposed to die earlier than they actually did.

Of course, we'll have to wait to be sure, but I have a hard time believing that Aeron, Arys, and the whole menagerie of FeastDance PoV characters are all that important. At best, they'll be Robbs.

[Cas Stark]

 

 

Well, the show cut Aegon and Arienne, so it stands to reason that neither character is important to the end game, more likely they will just be a much longer version of Quentyn...they will do a lot of stuff, especially Young Griff, and then die.  Oakheart is already dead so we can be 100% certain that his POV was a waste of time, ditto for Quentyn unless he's not dead.

And it doesn't matter if Brienne is the prince that was promised, that isn't going to make the Feast chapters more interesting or relevant.  More is sometimes just more, not better. Dany is critical to the story, but that doesn't mean that her 1000 Dance POVs all variations on the same theme were necessary.  They weren't.  We could have had half the Dany chapters with no loss.  Same for Tyrion.

Plus, since when did someone have to have a POV to be important?  Stannis and Tywin are both important to the story but don't have POVs.  Certainly Tywin will have been more important to the story than Quentyn, Arys, the Damphair or Victarian Grejoy. 

I will be very, very shocked if any characters turn out to be more important than Tyrion, Jon and Dany.  Certainly its not going to be Victarion or the Damphair or Quentyn who is dead or Arys who is dead or Selmy.

Lastly, its bad form to introduce an entirely new cast of characters when you are allegedly 2/3 or more of the way through with your story.  And we all do know broadly where the story is going.  We know Dany gets to Westeros, which makes her numerous Dance chapters even more annoying.  We know there is a final show down with the Others.  We know that Jon Snow is not out of the story.  

 

[Wilnova]

And it doesn't matter if Brienne is the prince that was promised, that isn't going to make the Feast chapters more interesting or relevant. 

But is not taste highly subjective? Who are we to decide what readers may or may not find interesting. Someone up thread apparently found the Brienne chapters entertaining to read. One of the posters in one of the other threads thought AFfC was the best book of the series. Don't book readers keep talking about how the journey is more interesting than the destination?

I, personally, find the Sansa chapters in the Vale to be some of the dullest in the series. Littlefinger and the many Vale Lords. Him occasionally going wink-wink and telling Sansa his grand plans. Sansa trying to get SweetRobin to eat his dinner, thinking about what to wear for the dance. Her latest TWoW sample chapter is no better.  I really could not care less for characters like Harry the Heir, Shadrich or the numerous Royces. I like how the show had Sansa tell the Vale Lords who she was and they just bypassed all that nonsense.

But, I know that Sansa fans love her Vale chapters and her new TWoW chapter and spend hours analyzing them and writing long essays on her subtle character development that only the most ardent readers can see and how dare the show cut away from all that.

Hence taste being highly subjective. I thought AFfC was a waste of paper. Someone else thought it was the best book. I think ADwD is a decent book because of the Wall, Stannis, Theon, Northern Lords story arcs that I enjoy reading about. Others seemed to have totally disliked ADwD. 

Who decides what should be cut? Sure, maybe Martin should write about only the relevant characters and stop writing about the journeys they take to get there. But that would make his books be more like the show.  And then what would the book purists complain about?

Martin need to start bringing his characters together. Like yesterday. I think the seeds are there in AFfC and ADwD. I think the narrative in TWoW will demand less journeying and more events happening. Jon, Bran and Arya at least are now ready to move into the final phase. Dany is a little worrying as I am not exactly sure how she gets to Westeros in the next book. And Tyrion is stuck with her. I think it's Dany that's holding up Martin.

 

[Liaraeyne]

Yes... I actually liked both AFFC and ADWD a lot and I'm tired of waiting for TWOW.

 

[Cas Stark]

 

 

Oh how I dislike the new format here.  I have no idea why multiple quotes are showing up here.  Ugh.

Yes, taste is ultimately subjective, but then we don't say that we don't know if Shakespeare or Monet are good because some people don't like them.  It's a continuum.

I love Arya and I love her chapters, I could read entire novels about Arya Stark,  but I can admit that her adventures and her training could have been cut down in service of the larger story.  I also admit that she's so far got some serious plot armor to have been through everything she has been through and only gotten a few light beatings.  Her armor doesn't compare to Danys but I can still see that he could have reigned himself in.

Sure some people think AFFC is the best book.  People loved 50 shades of grey even thought its crap acording to me and they go see Transformers which is more crap according to me.  Some people have bad taste according to me.

I have very low expectations for Martin now, I expect that Winds will be much closer to Feast and Dance than the first 3 novels, I have been generally not that impressed with the sample chapters he released except for the Theon chapter, which allegedly was written years and years ago.  Mercy was interesting, but too long.  Alayne was okay, but I didn't find Sansa's immediate change over from stomach flutters to vixen to be very believable occurring in the matter of a couple of pages.  I can't stand Arriane Martell so don't care what she does.

But back on topic I don't think he will split Winds, but I don't think Winds is going to get the story to where most people initially expected it would get to.  He's got he says many Dany Dothraki chapters and so he still hasnt' resolved Meereen or gotten her to Westeros....unless its at the very end of the book.

I thought the Feast Dance split was Insane as I have said many times.  I N S A N E.

[Metopheles]

To be fair Cas Stark, I think the big issue you have with feast would be the omission of Stark characters, or any of the previous "hero" characters? It's mostly "villainous" and new characters or side characters from the previous books.

[Werthead]

Chekhov's Gun applies - the idea that if you're putting something in the book, it must serve a narrative purpose. If it doesn't serve a narrative purpose, don't put it in there. Are we to somehow expect that each and every bloated component of AFFC and ADWD is somehow of narrative importance? I have a very hard time believing that, especially when you have characters like Quentyn. 

The point of Quentyn's story is twofold:

1) An inversion of the heroic prince story. GRRM went a bit overboard with all the frog prince stuff in this area IMO, but the actuality of having a prince go on a story to woo a princess only to overreach and get burned alive is a good summary of ASoIaF as a whole and a study of the cliches of epic fantasy.

2) To effect the geopolitics of the story: killing Quentyn ends the chances of an early alliance between Dorne and Dany (this now won't be possible until Dany lands in Westeros), makes it more likely that Doran and Dorne will ally with Jon Connington and Young Griff (as they are in-theatre right now, whilst Dany is still a few months away at best) and complicates the story. This is of huge narrative importance.

[Cas Stark]

I give up, this quote thing is random.  

If GRRM intended to use Quentyn as another trope changer, then he would have needed to devote MORE time to his character in order for it to resonate.

Quentyns death and how it will affect Dorne is not a justification for his POV.  All of that could still happen and we can see from Arianne, Selmy and Dany's POV.

Unless he is not dead like a few people think then that was a digression that was unneeded.  That was the author writing some stuff because he felt like it that was completely unnecessary to the story he's telling.  He can't give everyone a POV and he can't explore every side issue he has raised.

I'm still waiting on resolution for the Dayne family that he has been teasing since GOT.  And so far, it seems like this is a thread he dropped. 

[Lord Varys]

Complaining about Quentyn chapters doesn't make much sense, in my opinion. The boy only had three chapters, if I remember correctly, and from a storytelling/plot-related point pretty much all the Bran chapters after the important people left Winterfell and most of the Arya chapters until she reached Braavos were 'unnecessary'. Those were the chapters I was not looking forward to read when I read the books the first time because pretty much nothing seemed to happen there.

There is a certain problem with the POV structure of the series as well as the fact that certain characters will become more important/very crucial only at certain points in the story. But once they have been introduced it is difficult to take them out again.

Of course, we'll have to wait to be sure, but I have a hard time believing that Aeron, Arys, and the whole menagerie of FeastDance PoV characters are all that important. At best, they'll be Robbs.

Well, the fact that Robb had no POV sort of goes against that. Some of the new POVs might not last all that long (I for one don't think that Victarion is going to last long but I could be very mistaken there) but they were necessary to tell the new story. Telling the Dorne and the Ironborn stories simply through other POVs by means of reports and speculations wouldn't have worked at all.

Well, the show cut Aegon and Arienne, so it stands to reason that neither character is important to the end game, more likely they will just be a much longer version of Quentyn...they will do a lot of stuff, especially Young Griff, and then die.  Oakheart is already dead so we can be 100% certain that his POV was a waste of time, ditto for Quentyn unless he's not dead.

Plus, since when did someone have to have a POV to be important?  Stannis and Tywin are both important to the story but don't have POVs.  Certainly Tywin will have been more important to the story than Quentyn, Arys, the Damphair or Victarian Grejoy. 

I will be very, very shocked if any characters turn out to be more important than Tyrion, Jon and Dany.  Certainly its not going to be Victarion or the Damphair or Quentyn who is dead or Arys who is dead or Selmy.

Lastly, its bad form to introduce an entirely new cast of characters when you are allegedly 2/3 or more of the way through with your story.  And we all do know broadly where the story is going.  We know Dany gets to Westeros, which makes her numerous Dance chapters even more annoying.  We know there is a final show down with the Others.  We know that Jon Snow is not out of the story. 

What the show does is really irrelevant because they do what they want. Aegon most likely won't win the war and save Westeros from the Others, but that doesn't mean that he'll die. You can survive even if you are deposed.

Neither Stannis nor Tywin are main characters. In fact, depending on the number of books he is going to show up by the end of the series he might very well become a tertiary character by then. The only books he shows his face for quite some time is ASoS, after all. He is nearly entirely absent from AGoT and ACoK.

In my opinion George is really wrong with his assessment that there will only be two more books. I said as much even before ADwD that the core test for that would be whether we see the Others do something/attack or destroy the Wall in that book - and they did not. He cannot possibly continue the Targaryen restoration/civil war plot and the Others plot at the same time, and hope to tie that up in only two more books.

Especially not if Stannis is still alive - which he is in the books, and most likely will continue to be for quite some time. If George had wanted to end his story he could easily have killed him the way the show did. But he did not do that.

Depending how many books the series will actually get it might very well turn out that many of the characters that people consider to be 'important' in the light of the first books will realize that they are mistaken. For instance, Melisandre could still become a very important character and POV in her own right considering that we still don't know who the hell she actually is.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Complaining about Quentyn chapters doesn't make much sense, in my opinion. The boy only had three chapters, if I remember correctly, and from a storytelling/plot-related point pretty much all the Bran chapters after the important people left Winterfell and most of the Arya chapters until she reached Braavos were 'unnecessary'. Those were the chapters I was not looking forward to read when I read the books the first time because pretty much nothing seemed to happen there.

Four chapters, actually, and in terms of a book that's quite a bit. Devoting four chapters to what's essentially a trope deconstruction and a plot device seems a bit much. And the worst part is that Quentyn as a character did absolutely nothing to earn his POV: he wasn't complex, deep, layered, interesting, engaging, funny, witty, contemplative, remarkable, refreshing, nothing. He was paper thin, a dime store paperback sort of character (kinda like Hotah, thought not as terrible). His chapters before the failed dragonnapping were a drag, didn't tell us anything we didn't know already. I have no problems with his character and I think his death will affect the Dany-Dorne relationship, but his POV was a waste. 

And I think what I said earlier about only showing characters when they do something important applies to POVs as well. Like, it's completely possible for the Damphair's POV to be important in the future, why not? But in Feast? No way, he does nothing that warrants a POV, literally nothing. He drowns some guy, rides to the Goodbrother's house or whatever, acts like a weirdo, rides back to the beach (!), randomly comes up with the idea of the Kingsmoot, then narrates the Kingsmoot as far more interesting people talk. It's not only that his POV contributes nothing to the plot, but also that he's got no semblance of an arc. Sure, at first it seems that Euron winning shook his faith in the Drowned God so much there's going to be a substantial change in his character, but no, in the next Vic chapter he's still the same old Dampy. Talk about a flat character. He didn't earn his POV in Feast. And don't even get me started on Hotah. Seriously, don't. 

Chekhov's Gun applies - the idea that if you're putting something in the book, it must serve a narrative purpose. If it doesn't serve a narrative purpose, don't put it in there. Are we to somehow expect that each and every bloated component of AFFC and ADWD is somehow of narrative importance? I have a very hard time believing that, especially when you have characters like Quentyn. 

Also, we can only go with what is in front of us right now. If Martin fails to write another book, we are left with what we have - and what we have is bloat. If a subsequent book retrospectively turns ADWD into a work of genius, I'll revise my opinion then. Not before.

Exactly. We have to judge every book as a part of a series, true, but also as an individual, standalone work, in my opinion. So we can't judge Feast or Dance based on potential future novels and what they might include. We can't withhold judgement of a series until it's finished. We have to judge what we have and it has to work on their own. 

And call me a pessimist but even if Nimble Dick turns out to be Azor Ahai I have a hard time seeing how Feast and Dance will retroactively turn into works of staggering genius. Even if Winds and Dream turn out to be masterpieces, Feast and Dance will always be there as the dark spots in an otherwise great series. 

[Cas Stark]

If George RR Martin ends the series and it turns out the Starks are not important then he will have wasted all of my time.  If it turns out that the Damphair is more important than Jon Snow he will have wasted my time.  If it turns out that Arienne Martell is more important than Dany he will have wasted my time.

I simply don't believe that.  I don't know why other than lack of discipline or boredom he added in all of this secondary stuff, but it would really a strange story if the Starks and Tyrion and Dany turn out to be less important than the random POVs added in the last two books.

He will never finish in 7 books. Never.  I have been predicting 8 since he discussed some of the action in Winds of Winter which sounds like it progresses at the same snails pace as Feast.  And since I don't think he will finish book 7, book 8 is a non starter.

[Ser Didymus]

GRRM's pace and story progression are at its most efficient when the backdrop is WAR.   The shifts in power, the major character deaths, the alliances borne of necessity.  (IMO) the lack of regional conflict on page, coupled with the "re-organization of the cyvasse pieces" in preparation for the next big war(s) is why so many readers view AFFC/ADWD as the low water mark for the series.   

Huge moments tend to kick off wars, as well as bring wars to an end in ASOIAF.   Knowing that TWOW is sure to contain major conflicts in the early pages, I think it's safe to assume that its pace will match ACOK/ASOS more than it will AFFC/ADWD.  

Again, this post is only attempting to address those who find the pacing/progression of the split books as troublesome.   

[Metopheles]

Winds of Winter will likely disappoint many people more than even affc and adwd has. We will get so close to the end, but still not much done. GRRM has to keep enough characters and plots alive so the readers are unable to tell the end of the series. This must be a major difficulty  to grrm right now, decide how much to tell as not to tell the final stage.

And thus many big deaths wont happen and many grand changes likely neither. There will be a lot, but a vast majority of it will be preparations and build ups for plots and schemes of ados.

It will be great, and entertaining and introducing new history fragments and new descriptions and revelations about cities and people we heard of but never saw, but don't expect too much big action apart from Stannis' battle and the Meereen battle, which most people wont like anyway because "Meereen is boring"

[Lord Varys]

If George RR Martin ends the series and it turns out the Starks are not important then he will have wasted all of my time.  If it turns out that the Damphair is more important than Jon Snow he will have wasted my time.  If it turns out that Arienne Martell is more important than Dany he will have wasted my time.

I simply don't believe that.  I don't know why other than lack of discipline or boredom he added in all of this secondary stuff, but it would really a strange story if the Starks and Tyrion and Dany turn out to be less important than the random POVs added in the last two books.

He will never finish in 7 books. Never.  I have been predicting 8 since he discussed some of the action in Winds of Winter which sounds like it progresses at the same snails pace as Feast.  And since I don't think he will finish book 7, book 8 is a non starter.

Well, Jon Snow and Bran certainly will become important, but I cannot really make a prediction how and in which capacity either Arya or Sansa will figure into the grand finale involving the Others. Politicking and assassination both will be of little use there, and I very much doubt that the Others care what face their wights wear...

The Starks are certainly less important now than they appeared to be in AGoT, with Ned, Robb, and Catelyn dead/without POV, and the children on growing up as fast as they were supposed to. But I certainly am with you that Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Arya, and Sansa most likely will be with the series until the end - but a lot of the physical stuff might be done by, say, Jaime, Brienne, Theon, Asha, Davos, and Samwell.

Four chapters, actually, and in terms of a book that's quite a bit. Devoting four chapters to what's essentially a trope deconstruction and a plot device seems a bit much. And the worst part is that Quentyn as a character did absolutely nothing to earn his POV: he wasn't complex, deep, layered, interesting, engaging, funny, witty, contemplative, remarkable, refreshing, nothing. He was paper thin, a dime store paperback sort of character (kinda like Hotah, thought not as terrible). His chapters before the failed dragonnapping were a drag, didn't tell us anything we didn't know already. I have no problems with his character and I think his death will affect the Dany-Dorne relationship, but his POV was a waste. 

And I think what I said earlier about only showing characters when they do something important applies to POVs as well. Like, it's completely possible for the Damphair's POV to be important in the future, why not? But in Feast? No way, he does nothing that warrants a POV, literally nothing. He drowns some guy, rides to the Goodbrother's house or whatever, acts like a weirdo, rides back to the beach (!), randomly comes up with the idea of the Kingsmoot, then narrates the Kingsmoot as far more interesting people talk. It's not only that his POV contributes nothing to the plot, but also that he's got no semblance of an arc. Sure, at first it seems that Euron winning shook his faith in the Drowned God so much there's going to be a substantial change in his character, but no, in the next Vic chapter he's still the same old Dampy. Talk about a flat character. He didn't earn his POV in Feast. And don't even get me started on Hotah. Seriously, don't. 

I'd actually agree that the first Aeron chapter could have been skipped if there had been any need - but due to the size of AFfC there really wasn't. But the Kingsmoot in itself was interesting, although the whole narrative there is pretty weird due to the fact that George originally envisioned the Ironborn/Dornish chapters as a long prologue which then got out of hand. I originally thought that the Kingsmoot was very much irrelevant because Euron was already king before that, but it actually serves as a pretty good way to introduce him as a character and menace, and I think it is very evident that Euron will become of the main players of destruction in the second part of the series, perhaps even the main mortal villain of the entire series.

Quentyn is just an average guy. His fear of facing/courting Dany is a lot more interesting, in my opinion, then Arya being a tomboy, Arya hunting cats, Arya traveling the countryside being miserable, Arya spending time with irrelevant characters like Gendry and Hot Pie, and Arya hanging out with the Hound. Not to mention Sansa doing virtually nothing besides watching other people for most of her story in the first three books, and Bran being a child doing nothing important until ADwD.

I admit that I got annoyed with Brienne's chapters during the first read of AFfC but that was mainly because I was more interested in other stories - back in the first three books I was much more annoyed with all those completely irrelevant Arya and Bran chapters which contributed virtually nothing to the important political story at hand. This changed during a reread, but due to the POV structure and George writing the chapters often with a short story like cliffhanger/twist at the end it is often very annoying to switch from an interesting/intriguing plot to something completely unrelated to that plot.

If you compare a lot of the botched plots in AFfC (Myrcella's coronation, Cersei's various plans to do stuff that lead to nothing) with the other books you'll also notice that there are a lot of wasted pages in AGoT. What was the purpose of the whole Vale episode in the first book? With Lysa dead, Tyrion now has no reason to invade the Vale or help the clansmen to do so? Why the hell did he even introduce them? Why did we have to go through the whole Drogo story if the guy just dies of a poisoned wound?

I always thought this should or does reflect the uncertainties of political intrigue and war. Your plans may or may not work, and George actually shows us on occasions that plans do not work.

By the way: I don't think we can judge those books as 'standalone novels' simply because they aren't. Neither of this books makes sense if they aren't read in the right order, and many characters don't even have an arc or a connection to the plots of the other books if you read them without the others. Not to mention that they aren't really designed to have a definite beginning or ending, which is a necessary criterion for a standalone novel.

[Wilnova]

 

By the way: I don't think we can judge those books as 'standalone novels' simply because they aren't. Neither of this books makes sense if they aren't read in the right order, and many characters don't even have an arc or a connection to the plots of the other books if you read them without the others. Not to mention that they aren't really designed to have a definite beginning or ending, which is a necessary criterion for a standalone novel.

Which makes it even more crazy when Martin apologists say things like GRRM does not owe his readers anything or that GRRM is not your bitch etc. His readers have read novels that don't have definite beginnings or ends with the implicit understanding that we will get an ending. GRRM has a moral obligation to his readers at the very least.

As for splitting the books, I really would not have an issue with it. The stories in the different regions seem to be still disconnected. The winds of winter as the same suggests could focus on the North. There's plenty to write about. The Battle of ice and a resolution to Stannis' efforts to remove the Boltons, Theon and Asha, Jon's resurrection and subsequent actions, Bran's adventures north of the wall, Bloodraven, The Northern Lords, Manderly, Davos, Rickon's return, a possible Howland Reed appearance and some TOJ spoilers. The book could end with Arya finishing her training and returning to the Riverlands to reunite with Nymeria or go North and reunite with Jon.

The next book would focus on everything else. KL, Cersei, Marg, sparrows, Tyrells, Aegon and Jon Con, Dorne and Highgarden, Euron's attack, Sam at Oldtown, Sansa in the Vale, Jaime and Brienne, the brotherhood and the riverlands, Walder Frey, Dany, Tyrion, Barristan, Meereen, them getting back to Westeros and a second dance of dragons. I suspect this book will be harder to write and take longer since most of this stuff came about because of him introducing new plot points while he was gardening.

And he will definitely need an eighth book where he then connects the events in book 6 and 7, Dany finally goes North and we have the dragons Vs Others and the finale.

This would be my ideal scenario. I am a fan of the North plot, so I would not mind it if we got the split books this way. I also think the show is going to spoil and has already spoiled the Northern plot in season 6. But this is just wishful thinking at this point. I have been told Martin does not write this way. He just picks random characters and then writes for them when the muse strikes. So far he has Alayne, Mercy, Theon, Tyrion and Barristan. So it looks like it's the Northern story arcs that's lagging behind.

[sifth]

 

By the way: I don't think we can judge those books as 'standalone novels' simply because they aren't. Neither of this books makes sense if they aren't read in the right order, and many characters don't even have an arc or a connection to the plots of the other books if you read them without the others. Not to mention that they aren't really designed to have a definite beginning or ending, which is a necessary criterion for a standalone novel.

I'll admit that most of the books have the feeling of an ending to them. However the last two books, while certainly do have a beginning, do not really have an ending. I suppose Feast has a better one than Dance I suppose, with Sam meeting "Pate", so the story in a sense comes full circle. The fact that it took Sam over nearly an entire book to get to Old Town however was a joke, but that's besides the point. Dance's "ending" however was more of a "meanwhile back at the Red Keep". I like Kevan's death as much as anyone and while it was a powerful stopping point for the book, it really just felt like that, a stopping point and not really an ending. The fact that nearly every other characters story ended in a cliffhanger didn't help the books ending either.