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UnmaskedLurker

A+J=T v.8

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The A+J = T theory puts forth the claim that Tyrion Lannister is the illegitimate son of Aerys II Targaryen and Joanna Lannister.

Note: Individually, none of these clues prove that Tyrion's biological father is Aerys. However, when taken together, these clues provide a strong argument in favor of the theory.

Personal Note:  I want to express my thanks to Consigliere who lived up to his name fabulously by editing, reformatting and enhancing my prior OP in the manner presented below (which is a tremendous improvement both in terms of the substance and presentation of the OP).

Clues in favor of A+J = T:

- Pale blond hair (sounds closer to Targ color than Lannister color) with patches of black hair (the Black hair could be from Betha Blackwood, the grandmother of Aerys, which might be even more compelling evidence given that there is no known source of black hair on the Lannister side).

 

- Mismatched eyes, one black and one green (only other example of mismatched eyes is Shiera Seastar, a Targ bastard—not an indication necessarily of the mismatch as hereditary, but perhaps a similarity planted by the author).

 

- Fascination with fire (pretended it was dragonfire) and dragons / dreamed of dragons / asked his uncle for a dragon as a gift / admired the dragon skull (while possibly others had some of these traits, readers hear few if any other examples).

 

- Barristan admits to Dany that Aerys lusted after Joanna, is the woman he would have wanted to marry and took inappropriate liberties during the bedding ceremony at her wedding (not an indication of sex at that time—just that Aerys wanted Joanna).

 

- Tywin refuses to let Tyrion inherit CR even though Jaime cannot inherit as a member of the King’s Guard and tells Tyrion, “Men’s laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine” (perhaps actually a confession that Tywin suspects that Tyrion might not be Tywin’s true-born son or perhaps really just a clue from the author).

 

- Tywin on deathbed telling Tyrion, “You are no son of mine” (either a literal confession or a clue provided by the author).

 

- Born deformed and described to have had a tail (similar to certain still-born Targaryens, perhaps including Rhaego).

 

- References to Tyrion having cast a shadow that made him as tall as a king.

 

- Moqorro’s vision—“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of it all.” (Ambiguous whether Tyrion is an additional dragon or just among the other dragons).

 

- Uses the alias of Hugor Hill (Hugor of the Hill was the name of the first king of the Andals and Hill are bastards from the Westerlands—if Aerys were known to be Tyrion’s father, Tyrion would be Tyrion Hill—and use of the name Hugor Hill could be interpreted to mean that Tyrion is a "royal bastard").

 

- Tells Jon, “All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes.” (Perhaps a message from the author that this dwarf really is a bastard).

 

- Tells Jon, “Most of my kin are bastards,” … “but you’re the first I’ve had to friend.” (Perhaps a hint from the author that Tyrion and Jon are kin).

 

- Dreams he has two heads and kills Lannisters, while one head is laughing and one is crying (is the laughing head Targ and the crying head Lannister?).

 

- Joanna was rumored to have had an affair with Aerys and was dismissed from court by Rhaella because Aerys was making Joanna a whore (suggesting that an affair occurred between Joanna and Aerys while Aerys and Rhaella were married and might have continued even after Joanna married Tywin).

 

- Joanna visited KL in 272 AC for the Anniversary Tourney and Aerys made a humiliating remark about her breasts. Tywin attempted to resign the next day, and Aerys refused to accept the resignation (this timeline makes the birth of Tyrion in 273 AC consistent with Aerys as the biological father, and Tywin’s desire to resign could be more easily explained as a reaction to an insult regarding her breasts).

 

- Aerys seems to lose respect for Tywin after the period of time during which Aerys would have impregnated Joanna with Tyrion.

 

- The fifth book is titled A Dance with Dragons. However the book is not really focused much on the actual dragons or a battle between Targs or Targ descendants (as the Dance OF Dragons was). So why the title? Had GRRM simply decided that because he had picked the title years ago when he thought different material would be covered in that book he nevertheless kept the title? No. The better theory is that the title is a clue. Book 4 (A Feast for Crows) focused on most all of the characters other than Dany, Jon and Tyrion (who are essentially absent from that book) but A Dance with Dragons primarily focuses on these three characters. So the title of book 5 could be an additional clue pointing towards Tyrion being a dragon.

 

Similarities to Bloodraven, a Great Bastard: 

 

  1. Distinct marking (mismatched eyes / huge red birthmark).
  2. Mutilation in defense of royals (cut nose / missing eye).
  3. Capable rulers but hated nonetheless.
  4. Kinslayers.

     

Similarities amongst Tyrion, Jon (assuming R+L=J) and Dany:

 

  1. Mothers died as a result of their births.
  2. Fathers / presumed fathers (Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin and Ned) killed.
  3. Lived in the shadow of older brothers.
  4. Outcasts.
  5. Unexpectedly rose to leadership roles.
  6. Lovers died arguably by their own hand (Shae / Ygritte / Drogo).
  7. Attempted assassinations.
  8. Third child of one of his or her parents (Joanna / Rhaegar / Rhaella) (of children who lived past infancy).
  9. Each killed someone in a position of power (Tywin / Janos / Kraznys).
  10. Each has been betrayed (Shae / Bowen / MMD).
  11. Each used the help of "raiding" warrior tribes in battle (Mountain Clan / Wildings / Dothraki)

     

Frequently Asked Questions / Counter Arguments:

 

1. Would the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion be undermined?

 

This is entirely subjective. Some readers will consider the relationship ruined and others enhanced by finding out that Tywin rightfully suspected that Tyrion was really the son of Aerys. Assuming the author was planning such a development in the narrative, the author had sufficient leeway to write the relationship as he did, particularly given that any reveal of Tyrion’s birth father will occur only after Tywin is dead. GRRM might not consider a revelation after Tywin’s death to have any real effect on the import their interactions (or might even consider them more interesting in light of the revelation).

 

2. If Aerys raped Joanna, wouldn’t she have taken moon tea instead of carrying the pregnancy to term?

 

 The evidence is somewhat ambiguous whether Joanna went to Aerys willingly, so the encounter might not have been rape. Even if Aerys raped Joanna, Joanna might have had her own reasons to carry the fetus to term (we have been told little about Joanna or her personality or values). Further, moon tea might not be 100% effective, so she might have taken moon tea, which failed. Other forms of terminating a pregnancy in Westeros might require more extreme measure that Joanna either might not have been able to obtain or might not have wanted to take the risks involved. In addition, Joanna might have thought it was most likely Tywin’s child and did not want to terminate the pregnancy under these circumstances. Bottom line, we don’t know enough about Joanna or the circumstances of the pregnancy to conclude that Joanna definitely would have terminated the pregnancy.

 

3. Genna says to Jaime, “I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some Kevan in you, else you would not wear the cloak … but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.” Does this imply that Tyrion is Tywin's biological son?

 

Not necessarily. Genna was talking personality and not necessarily inherited traits. Tyrion wanted Tywin’s approval and thus would try to be like Tywin. Tywin’s refusal to speak to his sister for one-half a year indicates that Tywin might have been upset because he was reminded that the son most like himself was the one that might not even really be Tywin’s biological son.

 

4. Tommen’s hair also is pale blond, and he certainly is 100% Lannister.

 

As he grew older, Tommen’s hair became golden blond, while Tyrion’s hair remained pale blond as an adult.

 

5. Euron has mismatched eyes as well. Does this make him a secret Targ?

 

No. There is no evidence to suggest that Euron was born with mismatched eyes. There are several reasons why a more likely explanation is that his condition is a hyphema rather than a genetic condition. [Credit to Corbon]

 

- A hyphema is effectively a bruise on the eye. It usually comes from a blow to the eye causing bleeding. If it does not clear up the blood can thicken and turn black and damage to vision can be permanent. That fits everything we know about Euron.

 

- If Euron sustained an eye injury causing a hyphema during his early career, that would have happened before Theon's birth and as far as Theon is concerned it would have 'always been like that'

 

- His nickname of "crows eye'. His other eye is blue, and crows eyes change from a light blue/grey to a red/black colour as they mature, which suggests perhaps that Euron's eye changed colour around the time he reached maturity.

 

- His sigil, which is a red eye with a black pupil. That suggests his patched eye might be dark red, or once have been red rather than black, as Theon recalls.

 

- His eye patch. The patch suggests that the eye does not have good sight, or else he would lose much by covering it most of the time.

 

- His lifestyle. Trauma injuries seem rather fitting amongst the Ironborn, especially the most adventurous of them.

 

6. GRRM inserted these “clues” intentionally to serve as red herrings.

 

A typical definition of red herring is “something, especially a clue, that is or is intended to be misleading or distracting.” Usually, such a misleading or distracting clue is intended to prevent the actual solution to a mystery from being too obvious to the readers (classically, for example, by introducing multiple suspects in a murder to keep the identity of the real murderer from being discovered too easily). Further, a red herring often is explicitly stated as a potential theory by a character. If A+J=T is a red herring, the true “mystery” from which the theory serves as a distraction is unclear. Certainly, no other mystery that has been explicitly introduced in the series is obscured by the introduction of these clues regarding A+J=T. In addition, no character explicitly contemplates that Aerys might be the biological father to Tyrion. Thus, the clues for A+J=T do not satisfy any of these criteria for a typical red herring.

 

7. Tywin would not give Tyrion a classic Lannister name if there were doubt as to paternity.

 

Tyrion probably is named after Tyrion the Tormentor, a Lannister king who enjoyed making women bleed. Tywin might have found the reference irresistible given the nature of Joanna’s death (which likely involved quite a bit of blood after Tyrion’s birth).

 

8. What about the SSM stating that Tyrion was named by his father, Dany by her mother and Jon by Ned; suggesting that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father?

 

This analysis reads too much into an SSM. It is not possible to know for sure what was going through GRRM’s mind when answering the question. This sentence was not part of a carefully crafted piece of literature but a quick written answer to questions (notice the grammatical error, using “like” rather than “likely” shows that it was likely written quickly). R+L=J is a more widely circulated theory than A+J=T, so GRRM might have thought the need to refer to Ned by name for clarity sake, but did not think the same care was needed for the reference to Tywin. Bottom line, the SSM never explicitly states that Tywin is Tyrion’s biological father, just references Tywin as Tyrion’s father, which Tywin was regardless of the identity of Tyrion’s birth father. Because GRRM is careful to refer to Ned as “Ned” rather than “Jon’s father” does not guarantee that GRRM would take the same care with Tywin, particularly if GRRM wanted the mystery of A+J=T to remain hidden to those readers who uncovered R+L=J.

 

 

Miscellaneous Quotes and Possible Clues:

The following list has been collected from various posts, put together primarily by Jo Maltese (with credit to other posters where designated):

 

Tyrion share’s a trait with Aegon V (his great grand father?), Jaehaerys (his grandfather?). Indeed,Tyrion looks like a mixture of Aegon V and his elder brother Daeron... And he is quite a reader / scholar just like Rhaegar or Maester Aemon.

 

aGoT - Tyrion III

 [Ser Allister:] "You have a bold tongue for someone who is less than half a man.

 

aGoT - Tyrion VI

 [Bronn:] "You have a bold tongue, little man. One day someone is like to cut it out and make you eat it."

 

aSoS - Tyrion VI

 [Tywin:] "You have a certain cunning, Tyrion, but the plain truth is you talk too much. That loose tongue of yours will be your undoing."

 

aSoS - Tyrion VIII

 [Tyrion:] My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.

 

aSoS - Tyrion IX

 [Tyrion:] Guard your tongue, you little fool, before it digs your grave.

 

The Hedge Knight

 "Hold your tongue, you stupid boy [Egg]. Run away. They'll hurt you!"

 

The Sworn Sword

 That tongue of his [Egg] will get him hurt one day, Dunk thought.

 

The Mystery Knight

 [Egg] "I can talk if I want."

"No," said Dunk. "You can't." That mouth of yours will get you killed someday.

(...)

Be quiet, Dunk wanted to roar. That loose tongue of yours will get us killed.

 

tWoiAF

The last years of Aegon's reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros. [remember Tyrion in Winterfell or at the Wall]

 

tWoIaF

A student of history and lover of books, Aegon V was oft heard to say that had he only had dragons, as the first Aegon had, he could have remade the realm anew, with peace and prosperity and justice for all. [premonitary?]

 

tWoIaF - Jaehaerys II

In 240 AC, a year after Prince Duncan's marriage, Prince Jaehaerys and Princess Shaera each eluded their guardians and were secretly married. Jaehaerys was fifteen and Shaera fourteen at the time of their wedding.

(…) Jaehaerys, the least martial of Aegon's three sons. (…) Unlike his brothers, Jaehaerys II Targaryen was thin and scrawny, and had battled various ailments all his life. Yet he did not lack for courage, or intelligence.

(…)

Though never strong, Jaehaerys II proved to be a capable kingrestoring order to the Seven Kingdoms and reconciling many of the great houses who had grown unhappy with the Iron Throne because of King Aegon V's attempted reforms.

 

 

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Choice of words and dreams similar for Tyrion and some Targaryens (credit: Suzanna Stormborn)

 

Dany  DWD

"Yes." Her hair was disheveled and her bedclothes all atangle, Dany realized. "Help me dress.  I'll have a cup of wine as well.  To clear my head." To drown my dream.

 

Tyrion DwD

"You are done with drink."

"Wine helps me sleep," Tyrion had protested. Wine drowns my dreams, he might have said.

 

Sam FFC

"I see them in my dreams Sam.. I see the red star bleeding in the sky.  I still remember red.  I see their shadows on the snow, hear the crack of leathern wings, feel their hot breath.  My brothers dreamed of dragons too, and the dreams killed, every one. " 

  

Tyrion DwD

Tyrion listened to Illyrio's snores, the crack of the leather straps, the slow clop clop of the team's ironshod hooves on the hard Valyrian road, but his heart was listening for the beat of leathern wings.

 

 

Tyrion DwD

A half-seen shape flapped by overhead, pale leathery wings beating at the fog.  The dwarf craned his head around to get a better look, but the thing was gone as suddenly as it had appeared.

 

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Tyrion and Jon had similar dreams of dragons (credit: IceFire125)… And a “even a dwarf would look down over the world seated on a dragon’s back”:

 

aGoT JON II

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.” 

Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. 

Tyrion guffawed. “Don’t look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You’ve dreamt the same kind of dreams.”

 

aSoS JON V

“I had another friend who dreamed of dragons. A dwarf. He told me—”

 

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Possible hints for Tyrion being Dany’s brother 

 

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not." [think of a dwarf on a dragon’s back]

 (…)

Your Grace," he conceded, "the dragon has three heads, remember? You have wondered at that, ever since you heard it from the warlocks in the House of Dust.Well, here's your meaning: Balerion, Meraxes, and Vhagar, ridden by Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The three-headed dragon of House Targaryen—three dragons, and three riders."

"Yes," said Dany, "but my brothers are dead."

 (…)

The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters. [following the so popular narrative consistency logic… Who else apart from Jon and Tyrion, seriously?]

 

[Add Spoiler, TV Show]:”2 terrible children from 2 terrible fathers"...

 

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Does Varys think Tyrion’s father is dead ? [credit: Suzanna Stormborn]

 

aCoK TYRION XI

"Men are such faithless creatures," he [Varys] said by way of greeting.

Tyrion sighed.  "Who's the traitor today?"

The eunuch handed him a scroll.  "So much villainy, it sings a sad song for our age.  Did honor die with our fathers?"

"My father is not dead yet.”

 

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Parallels between Tyrion and Aerys [credits: Suzanna Stormborn, Weirdo]

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion I

"A little bloody gratitude would make a nice start."

Lord Tywin stared at him, unblinking. "Mummers and monkeys require applause. So did Aerys, for that matter. You did as you were commanded, and I am sure it was to the best of your ability. No one denies the part you played.”

[Compare to:]

All that ended abruptly the day his father returned from a sojourn in KL.  That night at supper Tyrion surprised his sire by walking the length of the high-table on his hands. Lord Tywin was not pleased. “The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey.”

 

aSoS - TYRION VI

"Yes, I recall now," Cersei said, "Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold."

"And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father.” (…)

"Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third."

"The boy is thirteen. There is time yet." Lord Tywin paced to the window. That was unlike him; he was more upset than he wished to show. "He requires a sharp lesson.”

[Is Tywin upset because Tyrion is Aerys the Third?]

 

aSoS TYRION IX

“every witness will tell a worse tale, until I seem as bad as Maegor the Cruel and Aerys the Mad together, with a pinch of Aegon the Unworthy for spice.” 

 

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion V

“The substance flows through my veins, and lives in the heart of every pyromancer. We respect its power. But the common soldier, hmmmm, the crew of one of the queen's spitfires, say, in the unthinking frenzy of battle . . . any little mistake can bring catastrophe. That cannot be said too often. My father often told King Aerys as much, as his father told old King Jaehaerys."

"They must have listened," Tyrion said. "If they had burned the city down, someone would have told me. So your counsel is that we had best be careful?” 

[Grandfathers, fathers and sons…]

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion V

"All that," said Prince Oberyn, "and your father's fall as well. Lord Tywin had made himself greater than King Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man."

"I try, but he refuses to learn." Tyrion gave a sigh. “

 

ASOS 38 Jaime 

“Did you know that my brother set the Blackwater Rush afire? Wildfire will burn on water. Aerys would have bathed in it if he’d dared. The Targaryens were all mad for fire.”

 

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Large Shadows (Dragons)

 

Compare these :

 

When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

All in black, he [Jon] was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair, long of face, grey of eye.

 

"So power is a mummer's trick?"

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.Same quote you are referring to: the shadows that can kill clearly evokes dragons to me.

 

"Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.

 

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Tyrion and Viserion parallels

 

The birth of Viserion (the first egg to crack, Tyrion older than Jon and Dany): And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rockpale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

 

The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightenedyet he was my brother stillHis dragon will do what he could not.

This could apply to Tyrion were he Dany's brother... 

 

The crossbow: The fool was all that he had time to think as the quarrel caromed off Viserion’s neck to vanish in the gloom. A line of fire gleamed in its wake—dragon’s blood, glowing gold and red. The crossbowman was fumbling for another quarrel as the dragon’s teeth closed around his neck.

 

Viserion the lazy, the wise (clever): Wise?” Dany sat cross-legged on a cushion, and Viserion spread his white-and-gold wings and flapped to her side. “We shall see how wise they are,” she said as she scratched the dragon’s scaly head behind the horns. (...) Viserion sensed her disquiet. The white dragon lay coiled around a pear tree, his head resting on his tail. When Dany passed his eyes came open, two pools of molten gold. His horns were gold as well, and the scales that ran down his back from head to tail. “You’re lazy,” she told him, scratching under his jaw. (...)“You should be hunting with your brothers (...)"

 

Viserion the lustful enslaved: Once, not long ago, he had ridden on her shoulder, his tail coiled round her arm. Once she had fed him morsels of charred meat from her own hand. He had been the first chained up. Daenerys had led him to the pit herself and shut him up inside with several oxen. Once he had gorged himself he grew drowsy. They had chained him whilst he slept. Remind someone's story?

 

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Tyrion one of the three heads of the Dragon

 

The dragon has three headsThere are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

 

Three-headed Trios has the tower with the three turrets. The first head devours the dying [Dany?], and the reborn emerge from the third [Jon?]. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do [the riddle is the riddler: Tyrion?]

 

Alleras in the prologue of aFfC:

"The dragon has three heads," he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

"Is this a riddle?" Roone wanted to know. "Sphinxes always speak in riddles in the tales."

"No riddle" .

[the truth is simple, not a riddle: the Targaryen House and their dragons are back, and there are 3 of them.]

 

********************************************************

 

Tyrion is the Sphinx; half-lion, half-dragon

 

Tyrion is neither a Lion nor a Dragon, he is all at once, he is the Sphinx, he is the Riddle : a monster, half-man (!), half-lion, with a serpent (dragon?) tail and (dragon?) wings. His face is even noseless, just like the famous Egypt Sphinx statue and his mismatched eyes  are those of a Chimera, another ancient monstrous creature.

 

Tyrion's mismatched eyes may allude to the upcoming Dance between the new blacks, who will back Daenerys, who rides Drogon, and the new greens, who will back Aegon, who will ride Rhaegal. [credit: Lord Menilbonean]

 

Dance with Dragons - Tyrion III

"You may sleep on the deck or in the hold, as you prefer. Ysilla will find bedding for you."

"How kind of her." Tyrion made a waddling bow, but at the cabin door, he turned back. "What if we should find the queen and discover that this talk of dragonswas just some sailor's drunken fancy? This wide world is full of such mad tales. Grumkins and snarks, ghosts and ghouls, mermaids, rock goblins, winged horses, winged pigs … winged lions.

 

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Tyrion’s obsession and physical link with dragons and Valyria [most credit to Suzanna Stormborn]

 

GoT - TYRION II

"I'm off to break my fast.  See that you return the books to the shelves.  Be gentle with the Valyrian scrolls, the parchment is very dry.  Ayrmidon's Engines of War is quite rare, and yours is the only complete copy I've ever seen."

 

GoT - TYRION III

The wine was a rare sweet amber from the Summer Isles that he had brought all the way north from Casterly Rock, and the book a rumination on the history and properties of dragons. (…)

Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons.  When he had first come to King's Landing for his sister's wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen's throne room. (…)

He had expected to find them impressive, perhaps even frightening.  He had not thought to find them beautiful.  Yet they were.  As black as onyx, polished smooth, so the bone seemed to shimmer int he light of his torch.  They liked the fire he sensed.......When he had moved away, Tyrion could have sworn that the beast's empty eye sockets had watched him go.

 

aDwD - TYRION IV

(…) The next day he awoke with dragons fighting in his skull.

 

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The red comet heralding the coming of a dragon [LmL]

 

Dany sees the red comet as heralding her coming. It surely does, as she is the mother of dragons. But she’s not the only one whose arrival coincides with it:

 

aCoK - TYRION

“I will leave you.” Varys rose. “I know how weary you must be. I only wished to welcome you, my lord, and tell you how very pleased I am by your arrival. We have dire need of you on the council. Have you seen the comet?

“I’m short, not blind,” Tyrion said. Out on the kingsroad, it had seemed to cover half the sky, outshining the crescent moon. “In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger,” Varys said. “They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow.”  (ACOK, Tyrion)

 

… Fire and Blood did follow at the Blackwater!

 

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aWoIaF App descriptions [Susanna Stormborn]

 

on Joanna:

"It's said that she ruled Lord Tywin as he ruled the realm as Hand, and he greatly mourned her when she died in childbirth while delivering Tyrion.  In later years,Tywin's troubled relationship with Tyrion leads him to tell himt hat he wished he could prove Tyrion was not his son, suggesting that he is uncertain of Tyrion's paternity.

 

on Tyrion:

...He also dreams of riding a dragon since no one could ever look down on him if he were on dragonback.  Once, he even asks for a dragon as a name-day present, and weeps when he learns they no longer exist.

....Tywin claims that he intended to send him to the wall, but when he insists on calling Tysha a whore, Tyrion shoots him. Tywin dies, renouncing tyrion as his son.

...Becoming acquainted with Moqorro, Tyrion learns that the priest claims to have seen Tyrion in the flames, snarling amidst dragons.

 

 

Additional Analysis:

 

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A+J = T v.1

 

A+J = T v.2

 

A+J=T v.3

 

A+J=T v.4 (temporary)

 

A+J=T v.4

 

A+J=T v.5

 

A+J=T v.6

 

A+J=T v.7

 

Other:

 

Aerys and Joanna Part I

 

Aerys and Joanna Part II

 

Tyrion, Son of the Mad King

 

 

 

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This new platform has confused me. For some reason, the hidden text in one of the hidden text windows is strangely highlighted -- the Additional Analysis hidden text window. Does anyone know how to get rid of the dark highlighting without losing the links?

Thanks in advance for any help.

UL

ETA: Nevermind -- I was able to do it by copying text from prior version.

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While I like this theory, I do think that Moqorro's thing about the dragons can easily be explained by Tyrion meeting all of them, even meeting them in the right order.  Young and Old, Jon and Aemon, True and False, Jon and Aegon, bright and Dark, Jon and Dany?  He also had a big impact on both Jon and Aegon so far, assuming he has a big impact on Dany that explains the whole big shadow snarling in the midst of all line.

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This new platform has confused me. For some reason, the hidden text in one of the hidden text windows is strangely highlighted -- the Additional Analysis hidden text window. Does anyone know how to get rid of the dark highlighting without losing the links?

Thanks in advance for any help.

UL

The new platform stinks. 

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While I like this theory, I do think that Moqorro's thing about the dragons can easily be explained by Tyrion meeting all of them, even meeting them in the right order.  Young and Old, Jon and Aemon, True and False, Jon and Aegon, bright and Dark, Jon and Dany?  He also had a big impact on both Jon and Aegon so far, assuming he has a big impact on Dany that explains the whole big shadow snarling in the midst of all line.

Yes, on the surface, that is a plausible explanation. Pretty much all of the clues listed in the OP have "surface explanations" that do not require A+J=T to be true. That is why they are only clues and not definitive proof. It is the accumulation of suggestive evidence that make the case so powerful.

But specifically relating to Moqorro -- why does GRRM chose the wording the way he does -- the ambiguous use of the words "And you" when the vision turns to Tyrion. While the wording does not prove this theory -- it makes it more likely (IMHO) because it suggests that Tyrion is among the dragons and not apart from them.

The new platform stinks. 

Classic case of new version of software making functionality more difficult -- especially for old users. 

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YMies, on the surface, that is a plausible explanation. Pretty much all of the clues listed in the OP have "surface explanations" that do not require A+J=T to be true. That is why they are only clues and not definitive proof. It is the accumulation of suggestive evidence that make the case so powerful.

But specifically relating to Moqorro -- why does GRRM chose the wording the way he does -- the ambiguous use of the words "And you" when the vision turns to Tyrion. While the wording does not prove this theory -- it makes it more likely (IMHO) because it suggests that Tyrion is among the dragons and not apart from them.

Classic case of new version of software making functionality more difficult -- especially for old users. 

But it's shiny!

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I finally had time to read the last few posts from v.7 and here are my thoughts on the "sad news" and the cover art -- and the comic book insight:

While I am disappointed that WoW will not be out before season 6 of GoT (especially because it will make posting here potentially disastrous as everything interesting ends up needing to be in a hidden text box or posted in a different forum altogether until the book comes out), I certainly am not surprised. GRRM seems to be having a hard time getting his characters in place. He knows where they need to go but seems to have no idea how to get them there (similar to the problem dubbed the Meereensean (sp?) knot in book 5). I think he also keeps re-writing scenes because on re-read he is not satisfied with them. Those issues together, I suspect, make the process very long. I think the early books were shorter because when he first plotted out the story he had a pretty good idea of how the early action would go -- but for the later action, I suspect he only knows the major plot points and never really thought through how to make those plot points work (his so-called "gardener" approach to writing).

With all that said, I agree 100% with Weirdo that for me, spoiling the basic plot points do not diminish enjoyment of reading the books. As long as the TV adaptation is not "exactly" like the book in all respects -- and we KNOW it will not be -- seeing how the books get from A to B is as interesting to me even if B has been spoiled (and for me sometimes more interesting because I can relax and enjoy the ride rather than being distracted by thoughts of which things are red herrings and which are real clues).

I also agree that the horn likely represents HoJ and the Wall coming down. I have been saying for a long time that we have "Chekhov's Wall" and it must come down ("When the Wall, comes tumblin' down -- when the Wall comes crumblin' crumblin' dooooown").

As to the discussion of the line that needed to be changed in the comic book -- I think that the speculation about who really is a bastard and who is the true-born between Jon and Tyrion is a pretty good guess and would be consistent with everything we have been thinking in support of this theory.

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Yes, on the surface, that is a plausible explanation. Pretty much all of the clues listed in the OP have "surface explanations" that do not require A+J=T to be true. That is why they are only clues and not definitive proof. It is the accumulation of suggestive evidence that make the case so powerful.

But specifically relating to Moqorro -- why does GRRM chose the wording the way he does -- the ambiguous use of the words "And you" when the vision turns to Tyrion. While the wording does not prove this theory -- it makes it more likely (IMHO) because it suggests that Tyrion is among the dragons and not apart from them.

Classic case of new version of software making functionality more difficult -- especially for old users. 

And yet, Moqorro specifically refers to Tyrion as a "small man" immediately after. Why not leave that out, if Tyrion is supposed to be a dragon as well? It could easily be done..

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Just a plug here for the episode of Radio Westeros that deals with the theory. I didn't realize it before I heard it because the subject of the episode is Tywin, not Tyrion. They get into A+J=T at the end, and they give it a very fair hearing. To paraphrase Yolkboy, A+J=T has everything you could want from a theory.

http://radiowesteros.com/radio-westeros-e17-tywin-the-lion-of-the-west

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And yet, Moqorro specifically refers to Tyrion as a "small man" immediately after. Why not leave that out, if Tyrion is supposed to be a dragon as well? It could easily be done..

There have been different theories thrown out dealing with that issue -- the one I like the best goes as follows. In getting a vision, Moqorro sees the person represented as an animal if he does not know them -- but as themselves if he does. So Tyrion is there and Moqorro now knows him -- so Tyrion appears as a man while the others -- who Moqorro has not met -- appear as dragons.

P.S. I misplaced my print-out of your long post explaining your objections to the theory. Do you remember which page of which version it appeared? I still intend at some point to read it closely and respond.

Just a plug here for the episode of Radio Westeros that deals with the theory. I didn't realize it before I heard it because the subject of the episode is Tywin, not Tyrion. They get into A+J=T at the end, and they give it a very fair hearing. To paraphrase Yolkboy, A+J=T has everything you could want from a theory.

http://radiowesteros.com/radio-westeros-e17-tywin-the-lion-of-the-west

Yes, I had a very nice PM exchange with Yolk Boy when it first came out (I think SS had alerted us to it on a prior version of this thread). All I knew initially was that they discussed the theory in the report, so I was very nervous that they would trash it given how unpopular it is (especially among some of the "cool kids" like Apple Martini). But they did a great job of setting out the core arguments in a succinct manner, and it was gratifying that our arguments seemed to persuade them.

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And yet, Moqorro specifically refers to Tyrion as a "small man" immediately after. Why not leave that out, if Tyrion is supposed to be a dragon as well? It could easily be done..

Because Tyrion is the only one that Moqorro actually sees as human. The dragon represent Targaryens, but Moqorro has not met/ seen any of the other "Dragons". If he had then he would see them in their human form and not as dragons, just like he sees Tyrion.

AND GRRM is not quite ready to straight up tell us Tyrion is a Dragon.

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Because Tyrion is the only one that Moqorro actually sees as human. The dragon represent Targaryens, but Moqorro has not met/ seen any of the other "Dragons". If he had then he would see them in their human form and not as dragons, just like he sees Tyrion.

AND GRRM is not quite ready to straight up tell us Tyrion is a Dragon.

I think Tyrion would be happy if he discovers this theory is true - but I don't think that's the case. He could have inherited the Lannister's "wit" from his mother, but I think Tyrion is Tyrion because he was born a dwarf, otherwise he would be just like his siblings (or half-siblings).

Too many "dragons", imho. So far the only one we are sure is a real Targaryen is Dany. And only because the KG heard her mother's screams when Aerys raped her, otherwise there would be theories about Dany's parents too.

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Aemon refers to him being bigger than he seems.

Jon sees him with a shadow that makes him look 'tall as a king'

Moquorro sees him as 'a small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.'

 

But it's Illyrio who mentions a 'small dragon' to him, even though he is talking about literal dragons at the time, I see it as no coincidence.  Which is funny because 'small and large' are the two kinds of dragons Moquorro does not mention, I think they are Illyrio and Tyrion.

"How many days until we reach the river, at this pace the queen's dragons will be larger than Aegon's three before i can lay eyes upon them."

"Would it were so.  A large dragon is more fearsome than a small one."

 

 

And there is this as well, TYrion referencing a small dragon again; "Once, when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his nameday, he begged them for a dragon.  "It wouldnt need to be a big one.  "It could be little, like I am."

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I think Tyrion would be happy if he discovers this theory is true - but I don't think that's the case. He could have inherited the Lannister's "wit" from his mother, but I think Tyrion is Tyrion because he was born a dwarf, otherwise he would be just like his siblings (or half-siblings).

Too many "dragons", imho. So far the only one we are sure is a real Targaryen is Dany. And only because the KG heard her mother's screams when Aerys raped her, otherwise there would be theories about Dany's parents too.

Welcome to the boards and welcome to A+J=T. :cheers:

I hope you take the time to read the entire OP before you finalize your opinion on this topic (if you have not read it yet). It is not that any one clue is definitive -- but the accumulation of clues is fairly persuasive to many of us.

 I think that Tyrion being a dragon actually is critical because I think that the "dragon has three heads" prophecy is important to winning the War for the Dawn 2.0 (i.e., defeat the Others). So the book needs three heroes who are dragons to work together. Dany is one -- Jon is another -- and Tyrion is the third. That is not too many dragons -- but rather just the needed number of dragons.

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Welcome to the boards and welcome to A+J=T. :cheers:

I hope you take the time to read the entire OP before you finalize your opinion on this topic (if you have not read it yet). It is not that any one clue is definitive -- but the accumulation of clues is fairly persuasive to many of us.

 I think that Tyrion being a dragon actually is critical because I think that the "dragon has three heads" prophecy is important to winning the War for the Dawn 2.0 (i.e., defeat the Others). So the book needs three heroes who are dragons to work together. Dany is one -- Jon is another -- and Tyrion is the third. That is not too many dragons -- but rather just the needed number of dragons.

Hi, thank you, Unmasked! I've read some of the clues when I was reading the book, a long time ago. I think we can expect everything from these books, to be honest I'd love for Tyrion to be a half-Targaryen, but he is so very Lannister!

Problem is, I don't believe the "dragon has three heads" part of the prophecy. I always thought that vision that Dany saw at the HOTU was false, a red herring, both for Dany, who has 3 dragons, and for the 3 "dragon's riders". My theory is that Dany will somehow discover that Rhaegar never believed that and the names are just coincidence. Why would he say that? The poor woman could not have more children, and Aemon said that Rhaegar believed he, Rhaegar, was TPTWP but when Aegon was conceived a comet was on the sky, so Aegon might be the promised prince. By that time Rhaegar had only Viserys as sibling. So, imo, the "three heads" only indicate the prince was to be a Targaryen. It's only one dragon, only one person (male/female) with 3 dragons.

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Aemon refers to him being bigger than he seems.

Jon sees him with a shadow that makes him look 'tall as a king'

Moquorro sees him as 'a small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.'

 

But it's Illyrio who mentions a 'small dragon' to him, even though he is talking about literal dragons at the time, I see it as no coincidence.  Which is funny because 'small and large' are the two kinds of dragons Moquorro does not mention, I think they are Illyrio and Tyrion.

"How many days until we reach the river, at this pace the queen's dragons will be larger than Aegon's three before i can lay eyes upon them."

"Would it were so.  A large dragon is more fearsome than  small one."

 

 

And there is this as well, TYrion referencing a small dragon again; "Once, when his uncles asked him what gift he wanted for his nameday, he begged them for a dragon.  "It wouldnt need to be a big one.  "It could be little, like I am."

These are very interesting clues. Tyrion used to read a lot and all children in Westeros dreamt, at least once, of riding a dragon. He knows a lot about dragons too, I remember he mentions a book that is lost forever, that had more information about dragons? Not sure now. He certainly is fascinated by them, like the old Targaryens were. But remember he can't walk properly without having a lot of pain in his legs, wouldn't it be natural for a boy like him to dream of riding a dragon? Remember when Bran "lost" his legs, his sadness about not being able to ride a horse. I'm sure that if Brandon had heard more dragon stories he would have wanted to ride a dragon too.

And the quote from Moqorro, to me, is more of a hint that he knows who Tyrion is, and the "big shadow" is his past (after all, he's an assassin, right?).

Sorry about my English, it's hard to explain things in English, it might sound like I don't like the theory, I just don't think that Tyrion needs to have Targaryen blood to ride a dragon.

 

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Hi, thank you, Unmasked! I've read some of the clues when I was reading the book, a long time ago. I think we can expect everything from these books, to be honest I'd love for Tyrion to be a half-Targaryen, but he is so very Lannister!

Problem is, I don't believe the "dragon has three heads" part of the prophecy. I always thought that vision that Dany saw at the HOTU was false, a red herring, both for Dany, who has 3 dragons, and for the 3 "dragon's riders". My theory is that Dany will somehow discover that Rhaegar never believed that and the names are just coincidence. Why would he say that? The poor woman could not have more children, and Aemon said that Rhaegar believed he, Rhaegar, was TPTWP but when Aegon was conceived a comet was on the sky, so Aegon might be the promised prince. By that time Rhaegar had only Viserys as sibling. So, imo, the "three heads" only indicate the prince was to be a Targaryen. It's only one dragon, only one person (male/female) with 3 dragons.

I think it is pretty clear that Rhaegar did believe the three heads part of the prophecy because we know that Aemon believes it. When he speculates that Dany is TPTWP, he notes that he is too old to be one of the other two heads. And we know that Rhaegar and Aemon were in communication and discussed the prophecy. As to the statement to Elia -- Aegon is an infant so I don't think the maesters had told them yet that Elia could have no more children. But I don't think the names of the children are intended to be in honor of them being the heads of the dragon -- in fact, my favorite theory is that Jon's name was supposed to be Aemon (let's not start this fight again KVT IV, I know you disagree) and not a male form of Visenya.

At the time that Aegon was born -- he had an older sister -- Rhaenys. So when Rhaegar say that there must be one more, he means that Aegon is TPTWP and one of the heads -- Rhaenys is a second head -- and he needs one more child to be the third head.  Then when Elia is told she can have no more children, Rhaegar realizes he needs to have a child with another woman (who ends up being Lyanna -- leading to Jon -- really TPTWP).

As to Tyrion being Lannister -- it is nurture over nature. Tyrion was raised by Tywin and tried to emulate Tywin as much as possible. So it is to be expected that Tyrion would be like Tywin even if not the natural-born son.

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I think it is pretty clear that Rhaegar did believe the three heads part of the prophecy because we know that Aemon believes it. When he speculates that Dany is TPTWP, he notes that he is too old to be one of the other two heads. And we know that Rhaegar and Aemon were in communication and discussed the prophecy. As to the statement to Elia -- Aegon is an infant so I don't think the maesters had told them yet that Elia could have no more children. But I don't think the names of the children are intended to be in honor of them being the heads of the dragon -- in fact, my favorite theory is that Jon's name was supposed to be Aemon (let's not start this fight again KVT IV, I know you disagree) and not a male form of Visenya.

But see, Aemon thought he was too old, so he thinks that if he were young, he could have been "one of the three heads" - I had forgotten Aemon said that. So the three heads don't need to be siblings, and it would be natural for a Targaryen to think only people with their blood could ride a dragon. What I mean is, Tyrion has knowledge, this can be very helpful when dealing with dragons. Many Targaryens had tried to ride, or become, a dragon, with disastrious consequences. Targaryen blood or Valyrian blood might not be so essential as the targs were taught to be.

I always thought Jon's name would be Aemon too, not sure why, maybe because Rhaegar had a strong connection with the maester.

 

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There have been different theories thrown out dealing with that issue -- the one I like the best goes as follows. In getting a vision, Moqorro sees the person represented as an animal if he does not know them -- but as themselves if he does. So Tyrion is there and Moqorro now knows him -- so Tyrion appears as a man while the others -- who Moqorro has not met -- appear as dragons.

Hmm.. I'd say either all should appear in the vision as an animal (dragons, in this case), or none.. especially since we don't know when Moqorro saw his vision. I'd suspect that he (or Benerro, even) saw whatever they saw before the Selaesori Qhoran ever left Volantis (as the Widow at the Waterfront seems to have known Tyrion at sight).

 

P.S. I misplaced my print-out of your long post explaining your objections to the theory. Do you remember which page of which version it appeared? I still intend at some point to read it closely and respond.

Eehm.. I seem to recall I made a couple larger ones, so I'm not sure which one you're talking about? I can recall that we were promising each other to save our longer posts and the replies we were sending because the forum was supposed to be upgraded  (which should place it around july, or june or something, I think?).

 

Since then, I've been able (for myself) to reform my arguments, so if you're ever up to simply restarting the discussion, just say the word :) 

You made a print-out? :) 

 

Because Tyrion is the only one that Moqorro actually sees as human. The dragon represent Targaryens, but Moqorro has not met/ seen any of the other "Dragons". If he had then he would see them in their human form and not as dragons, just like he sees Tyrion.

AND GRRM is not quite ready to straight up tell us Tyrion is a Dragon.

The visions the Targaryens and Blackfyre's had, display all Targaryens as dragons, even if they have met one another. The Ghost of High Hearth does not see literal people in her visions either

I dreamt I saw a shadow with a burning heart butchering a golden stag, aye. I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings. I dreamt of a roaring river and a woman that was a fish. Dead she drifted, with red tears on her cheeks, but when her eyes did open, oh, I woke from terror.

Neither Stannis, Renly or Euron are described as humans. The faceless man is literally faceless, making him unrecognizable, and Catelyn isdescribed as "a woman that was a fish", which might mean that she recognizes what Catelyn had been, and sees her as a human only because she's dead...

 

But even so.. The passage from Moqorro could easily have been written without specifically calling Tyrion a "man". Yet GRRM clearly wanted that word there.

 

Aemon refers to him being bigger than he seems.

Jon sees him with a shadow that makes him look 'tall as a king'

Moquorro sees him as 'a small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.'

"the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king"

Whoevers son he is, Tyrion is no king. His shadow is as tall as a King, but he himself is not. Being the king's shadow, sounds, to me, a lot like being the Hand of the King.. As close to being the king as you can be without actually being the king.

Which goes back to "“So power is a mummer’s trick?” “A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”".

Similarly, the giant comment from Aemon, "A giant come amongst us, at the end of the world", giants have a rather large shadow, wouldn't you agree.

"a small man with a big with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all"... in the midst of all the dragons, that is. With his big shadow referring to the "power" comment made by Varys, and the observation made by Jon.

And is Tyrion not in the midst of all? Jon, Aegon, Dany.. Even Aemon.. And in the future, perhaps Brynden as well. Not to forget the actual dragons. 

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Since we're kicking around the Moqorro thing again, I don't see why he wouldn't tell Tyrion 'I saw you', as opposed to some symbolic animal, when Tyrion is standing right in front of him, even if Tyrion had appeared as an animal in his visions. And it seems to me (we can't know for sure) that Moqorro is telling Tyrion what he just saw in the flames right before Tyrion arrived.

But we don't fully understand Moqorro's motives. We don't know if he is flat out lying. We do know he has an agenda, and is good at manipulating people. So what he tells Tyrion might be a fiction with an ulterior motive.

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