A+J=T v.8

[ravenous reader]

2 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Jorah Mormont  Not Barristan Selmy.

Ah, good point...that could deconstruct my 'theory'..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

As to the "3 children who are 3rd born"... That's just not the case. Daenerys was not Aerys's thirdborn child, nor Rhaella's. She had seven older siblings, two of whom lived to adulthood, three of whom lived for a few months. But they lived, so I would not call them unimportant.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just now, purple-eyes said:

All right, so I misremebered the first half.

here is about Tywin:

"And it will haunt him. Tywin was his father and that will continue to haunt him, probably for the rest of his life."

" while the act of killing his father is something of enormous consequence that would be forever beyond the pale, for no man is as cursed as a kinslayer."

I am not a very smart person, but I really can not feel anything here that GRRM decided Tyrion is son of Aerys in his mind.

I am reluctant to respond because I feel I am just repeating myself. First, if A+J=T, GRRM is not going to give this away in the interview, so of course, GRRM will reference Tryion as if he is the son of Tywin. More important, GRRM clearly is talking about Tyrion's state of mind and how Tyrion would be viewed by others in Westeros given what Tyrion and others know at this time -- i.e., he would have no knowledge of Aerys as the bio-dad. So these emotions from Tyrion and the views in Westeros regarding kinslaying will apply to Tyrion regardless of the truth of AJT -- because no one knows AJT yet. 

I understand your point that once GRRM puts Tyrion in such a position, you think it would be "cheap" to get him out (or at least partially out) by cleansing the taint as kinslaying through the reveal of AJT (although Tywin is still Tyrion's cousin through Lyanna). I simply disagree -- as do many others. GRRM repeatedly pulls these types of twists -- like showing that Jaime did not kill Aerys out of disloyalty -- but rather to prevent the slaughter of thousands through the release of wild fire. Was it "cheap" to "absolve" Jaime of the apparent guilt that the readers believed by disclosing this back story? Now, I acknowledge there is a difference because Jaime always knew why he killed Aerys. But the basic point is still there. GRRM does this sort of thing all the time -- he makes someone look really bad -- and then later developments require a re-thinking.

Why is Tyrion finding out that Tywin is not the real bio-dad any different? Why is Tyrion not allowed a "twist" that puts his sins in a different light when other characters do?

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

It is indeed interesting to think Tyrion is son of Aerys.

You know, a hidden targ prince, mismtached eyes, Tywin's justification on his hatred over Tyrion, Tyrion can easily ride a dragon, etc.

But this book seems to be more pratical than this.

Until this moment, the only real supporting evidence we have is that Joanna visited KL one year before Tyrion's birth.

And mismatched eyes are not a feature only for Targ. Euron seems to have black and blue eyes too.

This can well be red herings.

And Tyrion really does not need to be son of Aerys to ride a dragon. We have a dragon binder on its way.

 

Have you read the OP? How can you say that mismatched eyes and a visit to KL by Joanna are the only pieces of evidence? And red herrings for what? Oh -- most people thought that Tywin is Tyrion's father -- but GRRM put in red herrings to suggest Aerys might be just so that GRRM could reveal -- that it was Tywin all along. That makes no sense -- that is not how red herrings work. There has to be some sort of mystery or unresolved plot point that has multiple possibilities. And then the red herrings act as distractions so that the real solution is not obvious. How does this information about Tyrion act as a red herring? A red herring for what?

As to the dragon horn -- you really think it does what Euron says it does? We have no evidence that a dragon horn can allow someone to bind a dragon. We know from the DoD stories how dragon binding generally was done by the Targs -- and no horns were involved. What makes you think that dragon binder will be another way? Because of its name or because Euron said so? And how is Tyrion going to get ownership of it -- and then get someone else to blow it for him (as the blower dies)? I don't see how that works.

More important, the prophecy is about three "heads of the dragon" and not just dragon riders. Even if somehow Tyrion rides a dragon -- if he does not have Targ blood -- he is not "of the dragon" and thus cannot be a head of the dragon. The dragon must have three heads -- and Tyrion is not a dragon just by riding a dragon -- he is a dragon only by having a Targ father.

1 minute ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

As to the "3 children who are 3rd born"... That's just not the case. Daenerys was not Aerys's thirdborn child, nor Rhaella's. She had seven older siblings, two of whom lived to adulthood, three of whom lived for a few months. But they lived, so I would not call them unimportant.

Children who lived less than 6 months often were not included in a family tree during that period. So the "recognized" children of Aerys and Rhaella were only Rhaegar, Viserys and Danaerys. Just look at the "official" family tree in WOIAF. None of these other "children" are included because the custom was not to consider such "children" to have been "born" for purposes of counting how many children such a noble couple had. So the 3rd born does work.

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Ah, good point...that could deconstruct my 'theory'..

I disagree that Rhaegar can never force himself on a woman.

Tyrion is unlikely to rape a woman, especially Tysha who he loved. He did not even force himself on any whore. This has been mentioned several times in the book. But in certain case, he indeed raped Tysha.

Some features you mentioned about Rhaegar are not true or confirmed yet. What the hell is that "prefer gathering blue roses"? Where did we see he loves gardening? That blue rose garland was very likely prepared or ordered by Whent to celebrate his daughter's name day. It is more likely to be the favourite flower of Whent maid, not rhaegar's, not even Lyanna's (before HH tourney).

Rhaegar was described as "single-minded, delibreate, dutiful, and dertermined".

Every word hinted that this is a person who would do something by any cost if he feels this is correct thing to do, no matter he wanted to do or not. Just like he became a fighter due to his reading prophecies at his youth, although he never loved fighting.

There are two possible cases for him to need to rape somebody:

1. When he saw a red comet in the sky which fit the description in the prophecy, he could force his wife (who may not want to have a child so soon after an almost-dying difficult birth) to have sex with him. Then he can be sure his son will be conceived at this night.

2. When he felt Lyanna is the "Ice" of song of "Ice and fire", he could force her to have sex with him to get one child in order to bring the saviour to this world, because if not, all human beings will die by great evil. It is extremely insignificant to consider if Lyanna is willing or not, if you compare with the destiny of whole world. he would kill Lyanna or himself or Elia or his children without much hesitation if he firmly believed this is necessary for the prophecy.

Many rapists or murderrers do not look like that in real life at all.

You just never know what is the triggering point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

8 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I am reluctant to respond because I feel I am just repeating myself. First, if A+J=T, GRRM is not going to give this away in the interview, so of course, GRRM will reference Tryion as if he is the son of Tywin. More important, GRRM clearly is talking about Tyrion's state of mind and how Tyrion would be viewed by others in Westeros given what Tyrion and others know at this time -- i.e., he would have no knowledge of Aerys as the bio-dad. So these emotions from Tyrion and the views in Westeros regarding kinslaying will apply to Tyrion regardless of the truth of AJT -- because no one knows AJT yet. 

I understand your point that once GRRM puts Tyrion in such a position, you think it would be "cheap" to get him out (or at least partially out) by cleansing the taint as kinslaying through the reveal of AJT (although Tywin is still Tyrion's cousin through Lyanna). I simply disagree -- as do many others. GRRM repeatedly pulls these types of twists -- like showing that Jaime did not kill Aerys out of disloyalty -- but rather to prevent the slaughter of thousands through the release of wild fire. Was it "cheap" to "absolve" Jaime of the apparent guilt that the readers believed by disclosing this back story? Now, I acknowledge there is a difference because Jaime always knew why he killed Aerys. But the basic point is still there. GRRM does this sort of thing all the time -- he makes someone look really bad -- and then later developments require a re-thinking.

Why is Tyrion finding out that Tywin is not the real bio-dad any different? Why is Tyrion not allowed a "twist" that puts his sins in a different light when other characters do?

Have you read the OP? How can you say that mismatched eyes and a visit to KL by Joanna are the only pieces of evidence? And red herrings for what? Oh -- most people thought that Tywin is Tyrion's father -- but GRRM put in red herrings to suggest Aerys might be just so that GRRM could reveal -- that it was Tywin all along. That makes no sense -- that is not how red herrings work. There has to be some sort of mystery or unresolved plot point that has multiple possibilities. And then the red herrings act as distractions so that the real solution is not obvious. How does this information about Tyrion act as a red herring? A red herring for what?

As to the dragon horn -- you really think it does what Euron says it does? We have no evidence that a dragon horn can allow someone to bind a dragon. We know from the DoD stories how dragon binding generally was done by the Targs -- and no horns were involved. What makes you think that dragon binder will be another way? Because of its name or because Euron said so? And how is Tyrion going to get ownership of it -- and then get someone else to blow it for him (as the blower dies)? I don't see how that works.

More important, the prophecy is about three "heads of the dragon" and not just dragon riders. Even if somehow Tyrion rides a dragon -- if he does not have Targ blood -- he is not "of the dragon" and thus cannot be a head of the dragon. The dragon must have three heads -- and Tyrion is not a dragon just by riding a dragon -- he is a dragon only by having a Targ father.

Children who lived less than 6 months often were not included in a family tree during that period. So the "recognized" children of Aerys and Rhaella were only Rhaegar, Viserys and Danaerys. Just look at the "official" family tree in WOIAF. None of these other "children" are included because the custom was not to consider such "children" to have been "born" for purposes of counting how many children such a noble couple had. So the 3rd born does work.

GRRM is clearly talking about Tyrion's own feeling. Not how Westeros people view him.

In other words, if he is indeed son of Aerys, even the whole world did not know this and still cursed him as a true kinslayer, Tyrion himself will not be haunted by this "father-slaying" because he knows this is not his father.

Why do you want to explain it as how other people view him?

If so, GRRM would say: he will be viewed as a kinslayer forever by the world.

Not that: he will be haunted by this father-killing for the rest of his life.

In fact. whole world thought him as a kingslayer too. But Tyrion would not be haunted at all by the death of Joff. He did not do that.

If he knew he did not kill his father, then he would not mark himself as a kinslayer, no matter what people call him.

 

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

3 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

GRRM is clearly talking about Tyrion's own feeling. Not how Westeros people view him.

In other words, if he is indeed son of Aerys, even the whole world did not know this and still cursed him as a true kinslayer, Tyrion himself will not be haunted by this "father-slaying" because he knows this is not his father.

Why do you want to explain it as how other people view him?

If so, GRRM would say: he will be viewed as a kinslayer forever by the world.

Not that: he will be haunted by this father-killing for the rest of his life.

In fact. whole world thought him as a kingslayer too. But Tyrion would not be haunted at all by the death of Joff. He did not do that.

If he knew he did not kill his father, then he would not mark himself as a kinslayer, no matter what people call him.

You missed my main point. I am not focusing mainly on the view of others -- I am focusing mainly on the view of Tyrion (just noting that the view of others also fits). At the moment in time that GRRM is referencing -- the point in the books when the interview is taking place -- Tyrion has this state of mind. Tyrion believes he killed his father and is a cursed kinslayer. Tyrion thinks he is cursed beyond the pale due to the way that a kinslayer is viewed by Tyrion and the rest of Westeros -- but mainly for this purpose, by Tyrion. Tyrion believes he will forever be a cursed man as a kinslayer.

So at that point in time -- that is exactly how Tyrion feels. That does not mean that GRRM was asserting that because Tyrion thought he likely would feel that way for the rest of his life that it actually will happen that way. GRRM is not making a statement about how Tyrion ACTUALLY will feel the rest of Tyrion's life. GRRM is making a statement about how Tyrion thinks at that point in time he is likely to feel the rest of his life.

But things change -- and Tyrion may not feel that way the rest of his life. And finding out about AJT may be part of why Tyrion feels different in a future book in the series. You seem to think that GRRM is stating how Tyrion will feel the rest of Tyrion's life -- GRRM is doing no such thing. GRRM is only talking about Tyrion's feeling at that moment in time. And it will not be "cheap" to reveal AJT and allow Tyrion to modify his views accordingly.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

27 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Children who lived less than 6 months often were not included in a family tree during that period. So the "recognized" children of Aerys and Rhaella were only Rhaegar, Viserys and Danaerys. Just look at the "official" family tree in WOIAF. None of these other "children" are included because the custom was not to consider such "children" to have been "born" for purposes of counting how many children such a noble couple had. So the 3rd born does work.

And yet Daeron lived for half a year, whilst Aegon might have lived even longer. How long Jaehaerys survived is still unlcear, but you've got three candidates, two of whom might have survived past the six months (and one dying after six months).

Prince Baelon, Viserys's son by Aemma, lived for only a day.. Yet he is included on the family tree in TWOIAF. So I don't think your explanation can prove that the three boys didn't count in that sense. Their absence from that tree doesn't mean they didn't live long enough. They lived longer than Baelon, and Baelon is on that tree. We know there were issues with room for placing everyone in that family tree. Daella and Rhae were married and had children, yet their husbands aren't even listed, nor are their children. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

4 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

And yet Daeron lived for half a year, whilst Aegon might have lived even longer. How long Jaehaerys survived is still unlcear, but you've got three candidates, two of whom might have survived past the six months (and one dying after six months).

Prince Baelon, Viserys's son by Aemma, lived for only a day.. Yet he is included on the family tree in TWOIAF. So I don't think your explanation can prove that the three boys didn't count in that sense. Their absence from that tree doesn't mean they didn't live long enough. They lived longer than Baelon, and Baelon is on that tree. We know there were issues with room for placing everyone in that family tree. Daella and Rhae were married and had children, yet their husbands aren't even listed, nor are their children. 

I am not sure why Baelon is included in the tree -- other than maybe because he was "heir for a day." Others might be excluded for space reasons. But the exclusion of all of the other "children" of Aerys and Rhaella from the family tree suggests to me that these "children" are not regarded as part of the "official" tree and were not excluded merely for space reasons. The main point is that there is a way of thinking about the "children" that makes Dany the third child. That is all that matters -- the technical aspect is beside the point.

[ravenous reader]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

"single-minded, delibreate, dutiful, and dertermined".

Every word hinted that this is a person who would do something by any cost if he feels this is correct thing to do, no matter he wanted to do or not.

Those adjectives you quoted above could equally be used about someone like Ned, Rob, or Jon. Therefore, does it follow that Ned, Rob, or Jon is also capable of 'raping for the realm'..?

The theme of choosing between love vs. duty runs through ASOIAF. So, to your mind, Rhaegar's choice of Lyanna over his own wife was a choice of duty (to his House, to the realm/mankind) over love (of his wife, or his honor)..? That's an interesting alternative to entertain! I always thought it was the reverse: that Rhaegar's choice of love (of Lyanna) over duty (to Elia) triggered a cascade of events which brought forth destruction for years to come...From a narrative perspective, GRRM is also not fond of 'rewarding' choices of love over duty. He likes to roast our naked hearts on an open flame! Sorry about the florid metaphors (admittedly, I also went a bit overboard 'gathering blue roses')...

10 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I disagree that Rhaegar can never force himself on a woman.

Tyrion is unlikely to rape a woman, especially Tysha who he loved. He did not even force himself on any whore. This has been mentioned several times in the book. But in certain case, he indeed raped Tysha.

Are you referring to Tywin forcing Tyrion to join the gang-rape? I don't think Tyrion would normally have behaved like that, but his fear of his father, and a perverse desire to identify with and please him, trumped other considerations. Without this kind of duress, however, I don't see Tyrion initiating a rape. By the way, Tyrion is no angel. He strikes me as a person with more latent antisocial tendencies than Rhaegar. For example, he did order the death of that singer, and gleefully enjoyed the thought of his dissolution in the 'bowl of brown' (on a question of morality, some might consider ordering someone's murder, without actually 'swinging the sword' oneself Stark-style, tantamount to committing that murder oneself).

From this perspective, Tyrion might already have been a murderer, and it was not out of character when he murdered Shae or Tywin, nor did it surprise me. Like Tywin, Tyrion has retaliated ruthlessly and systematically in the past, when it came to betrayal, and especially if someone had shamed him. This is a prime example of a characteristic which he shares with Tywin; he hates being made a fool of. Tyrion, after all, is the person who most often reiterates the warning 'a Lannister always pays his debts.' He's not the forgive-and-forget type. Remember how he systematically 'cleaned out' the ranks when he first arrived in Kings Landing? And his nasty tit-for-tat, always teetering on lethality, with Cersei. I know some might say he's just the poor abused victim defending himself from all the superfluous cruelty heaped upon him, but he also enjoys the game, which includes vanquishing his opponents, heaping out some cruelty of his own, if he should deem it expedient.

At the point at which Tyrion 'truly' became a murderer, he was at his nadir, wielded no wealth nor power, and had no sellsword whom he could task with finishing off his enemies-- so, when it came to the crunch, and he felt he had to choose between himself and another, he did the job himself. You have to ask yourself, why didn't he just keep his head down and do as Jaime said, go to Varys, and get out of King's Landing ASAP? What arrogance possessed him to creep around the keep (putting Jaime and Varys's lives in danger the longer he lingered), climb hundreds of stairs, and crawl through tunnels, to make his way to the Tower of the Hand? What was he planning to do there?

[purple-eyes]

 

40 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

You missed my main point. I am not focusing mainly on the view of others -- I am focusing mainly on the view of Tyrion (just noting that the view of others also fits). At the moment in time that GRRM is referencing -- the point in the books when the interview is taking place -- Tyrion has this state of mind. Tyrion believes he killed his father and is a cursed kinslayer. Tyrion thinks he is cursed beyond the pale due to the way that a kinslayer is viewed by Tyrion and the rest of Westeros -- but mainly for this purpose, by Tyrion. Tyrion believes he will forever be a cursed man as a kinslayer.

So at that point in time -- that is exactly how Tyrion feels. That does not mean that GRRM was asserting that because Tyrion thought he likely would feel that way for the rest of his life that it actually will happen that way. GRRM is not making a statement about how Tyrion ACTUALLY will feel the rest of Tyrion's life. GRRM is making a statement about how Tyrion thinks at that point in time he is likely to feel the rest of his life.

But things change -- and Tyrion may not feel that way the rest of his life. And finding out about AJT may be part of why Tyrion feels different in a future book in the series. You seem to think that GRRM is stating how Tyrion will feel the rest of Tyrion's life -- GRRM is doing no such thing. GRRM is only talking about Tyrion's feeling at that moment in time. And it will not be "cheap" to reveal AJT and allow Tyrion to modify his views accordingly.

 

All right. If you try to interprete this as a statement of GRRM on how Tyrion feel about this at the current point but his feeling will change after he knows about a big secret about his parentage, then it is fine.

GRRM knows what will happen to Tyrion and he knows if he is son of Aerys or not.

IMHO, he would not say in this way if he really set Tyrion as son of Aerys.

Just like he said: his father named Tyrion, and Ned named Jon.

 

[UnmaskedLurker]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

 

 

All right. If you try to interprete this as a statement of GRRM on how Tyrion feel about this at the current point but his feeling will change after he knows about a big secret about his parentage, then it is fine.

GRRM knows what will happen to Tyrion and he knows if he is son of Aerys or not.

IMHO, he would not say in this way if he really set Tyrion as son of Aerys.

Just like he said: his father named Tyrion, and Ned named Jon.

 

These are exactly the kind of things that GRRM would say -- if he wants to keep A+J=T a secret. He knows the theory is out there and probably that it is a minority position. He want to keep it that way so that most number of people are surprised. So he is not going to say anything to suggest AJT is true in an interview. In fact, he will imply the opposite -- without saying anything untrue.

[purple-eyes]

3 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Those adjectives you quoted above could equally be used about someone like Ned, Rob, or Jon. Therefore, does it follow that Ned, Rob, or Jon is also capable of 'raping for the realm'..?

The theme of choosing between love vs. duty runs through ASOIAF. So, to your mind, Rhaegar's choice of Lyanna over his own wife was a choice of duty (to his House, to the realm/mankind) over love (of his wife, or his honor)..? That's an interesting alternative to entertain! I always thought it was the reverse: that Rhaegar's choice of love (of Lyanna) over duty (to Elia) triggered a cascade of events which brought forth destruction for years to come...From a narrative perspective, GRRM is also not fond of 'rewarding' choices of love over duty. He likes to roast our naked hearts on an open flame! Sorry about the florid metaphors (admittedly, I also went a bit overboard 'gathering blue roses')...

Are you referring to Tywin forcing Tyrion to join the gang-rape? I don't think Tyrion would normally have behaved like that, but his fear of his father, and a perverse desire to identify with and please him, trumped other considerations. Without this kind of duress, however, I don't see Tyrion initiating a rape. By the way, Tyrion is no angel. He strikes me as a person with more latent antisocial tendencies than Rhaegar. For example, he did order the death of that singer, and gleefully enjoyed the thought of his dissolution in the 'bowl of brown' (on a question of morality, some might consider ordering someone's murder, without actually 'swinging the sword' oneself Stark-style, tantamount to committing that murder oneself).

From this perspective, Tyrion might already have been a murderer, and it was not out of character when he murdered Shae or Tywin, nor did it surprise me. Like Tywin, Tyrion has retaliated ruthlessly and systematically in the past, when it came to betrayal, and especially if someone had shamed him. This is a prime example of a characteristic which he shares with Tywin; he hates being made a fool of. Tyrion, after all, is the person who most often reiterates the warning 'a Lannister always pays his debts.' He's not the forgive-and-forget type. Remember how he systematically 'cleaned out' the ranks when he first arrived in Kings Landing? And his nasty tit-for-tat, always teetering on lethality, with Cersei. I know some might say he's just the poor abused victim defending himself from all the superfluous cruelty heaped upon him, but he also enjoys the game, which includes vanquishing his opponents, heaping out some cruelty of his own, if he should deem it expedient.

At the point at which Tyrion 'truly' became a murderer, he was at his nadir, wielded no wealth nor power, and had no sellsword whom he could task with finishing off his enemies-- so, when it came to the crunch, and he felt he had to choose between himself and another, he did the job himself. You have to ask yourself, why didn't he just keep his head down and do as Jaime said, go to Varys, and get out of King's Landing ASAP? What arrogance possessed him to creep around the keep (putting Jaime and Varys's lives in danger the longer he lingered), climb hundreds of stairs, and crawl through tunnels, to make his way to the Tower of the Hand? What was he planning to do there?

Acturally Ned, Robb and Jon all did something which they really did not want to do, but did it anyway for different reasons.

Jon deserted Watch for his sister. Robb broke his holy promise for jeyne. Ned ruined his honor for his daughter.

I guess each action is as bad as raping in their mind.

Why not Rhaegar can decide to force or hurt somebody and ruin his own honor for the greater good of the human beings?

People would even scarifice themselves sometimes due to some greater need. I do not think I need to make examples.

 

Tyrion is not an angel, sure, but what made you think Rhaegar is better than Tyrion?

Because he is more handsome, better in music, or like visiting summerhall?

Does a rapist have a mark on face? or had to be a bad-looking guy?

No matter what the reason Tyrion has, he indeed raped Tysha. Nobody put a sword on his neck and ask him to rape her. he could say: I would rather die if you ask me to rape her! Tywin may let him die or not, but that is another question.

So if Rhaegar raped Elia or Lyanna, he certainly had some good reasons too.

 

 

 

 

[ravenous reader]

1 hour ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

GRRM repeatedly pulls these types of twists -- like showing that Jaime did not kill Aerys out of disloyalty -- but rather to prevent the slaughter of thousands through the release of wild fire. Was it "cheap" to "absolve" Jaime of the apparent guilt that the readers believed by disclosing this back story?

I've always enjoyed entertaining the notion that if Jaime should turn out to be Aerys' biological son, then technically, when he killed him, although that would have made him a kingslayer as well as a kinslayer, he was 'technically' not an oathbreaker-- the taint Jaime hates the most. In the text, Aerys' final order to Jaime was not to kill 'Tywin,' but to kill '[his] father,' so technically when Jaime complied...

GRRM enjoys grappling with questions of morality, so we are meant to consider questions of 'getting off' on a legal technicality after the act vs. the intention/belief in the mind of the person during the act. i.e. Is something only a crime by historical definition, or is the ethics of culpability something more personal, universal, and transcendent?

[purple-eyes]

8 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I've always enjoyed entertaining the notion that if Jaime should turn out to be Aerys' biological son, then technically, when he killed him, although that would have made him a kingslayer as well as a kinslayer, he was 'technically' not an oathbreaker-- the taint Jaime hates the most. In the text, Aerys' final order to Jaime was not to kill 'Tywin,' but to kill '[his] father,' so technically when Jaime complied...

GRRM enjoys grappling with questions of morality, so we are meant to consider questions of 'getting off' on a legal technicality after the act vs. the intention/belief in the mind of the person during the act. i.e. Is something only a crime by historical definition, or is the ethics of culpability something more personal, universal, and transcendent?

I thought Jaime is an oathbreaker, is mainly because he killed the king who he sworn to protect as a kingsguard.

This was repeated in his dream by other KG.

Not because he disobeyed his order to kill Tywin (although this is also a oathbreaking)

 

 

[ravenous reader]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 5:23 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I personally dont think that the mothers dieing in child birth is a product of being 1 of the 3 heads, as much as a way for GRRM to thematically connect the 3 characters

Symbolically, however, it could also be a consequence of the 'blood' element required to birth a dragon/Targarean ('fire'). A blood sacrifice was also required for the birth of Dany's dragons (magic). Blood magic is also tied to the 'genetics of magic'-- Targaryean exceptionalism and elitism (that only they can be dragonriders, and that this facility is passed down by genetics exclusively). Curiously, I've previously written posts on how children may inherit certain traits governing temperament and behavior from their biological parents, and received a lot of resistance from those claiming that 'nurture' explains all similarities. However, when it comes to magic, genetics reigns, and no-one has yet suggested the nurture hypothesis!

[ravenous reader]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 5:23 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I personally dont think that the mothers dieing in child birth is a product of being 1 of the 3 heads, as much as a way for GRRM to thematically connect the 3 characters

Symbolically, however, it could also be a consequence of the 'blood' element required to birth a dragon/Targarean ('fire'). A blood sacrifice was also required for the birth of Dany's dragons (magic). Blood magic is also tied to the 'genetics of magic'-- Targaryean exceptionalism and elitism (that only they can be dragonriders, and that this facility is passed down by genetics exclusively). Curiously, I've previously written posts on how children may inherit certain traits governing temperament and behavior from their biological parents, and received a lot of resistance from those claiming that 'nurture' explains all similarities. However, when it comes to magic, genetics reigns, and no-one has yet suggested the nurture hypothesis!

[ravenous reader]

On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 5:23 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

I personally dont think that the mothers dieing in child birth is a product of being 1 of the 3 heads, as much as a way for GRRM to thematically connect the 3 characters

Symbolically, however, it could also be a consequence of the 'blood' element required to birth a dragon/Targarean ('fire'). A blood sacrifice was also required for the birth of Dany's dragons (magic). Blood magic is also tied to the 'genetics of magic'-- Targaryean exceptionalism and elitism (that only they can be dragonriders, and that this facility is passed down by genetics exclusively). Curiously, I've previously written posts on how children may inherit certain traits governing temperament and behavior from their biological parents, and received a lot of resistance from those claiming that 'nurture' explains all similarities. However, when it comes to magic, genetics reigns, and no-one has yet suggested the nurture hypothesis!

[Aemon Targaryen]

Thanks UL for your welcome upthread.

Purple eyes - about the GRRM quote that convinced you A+J=T was a red herring ("Lord Tywin is convinced that since he doesn’t love Tyrion, then no one can possibly love Tyrion").  I agree it looks a bit awkward, but on any view of Tyrion's parentage, the Tywin-Tyrion relationship is a mess.  It's really the combo of Tyrion being in Tywin's eyes possibly/probably a Hill and definitely a dwarf that makes him just impossible for Tywin.  

An interesting counterfactual is what Tywin would've done if Tyrion was physically like Jon Snow.  I think Tywin would have swallowed the lie whole, at that point.  That is, he would have had no problem with Tyrion being his heir once Jamie entered the King's Guard.  No one would ever be able to prove to him that Tyrion wasn't his, and Tywin simply wouldn't care.

So in that sense the central emotional truth of the Tyrion-Tywin relationship perversely remains the same - Tywin treated Tyrion that way because he was a dwarf.  Or, to put it another way, despite Tywin's extreme pragmatism, even he couldn't easily stomach the lie because Tyrion's being a dwarf never allowed him to forget the cuckoldry (and J's potential betrayal).  It was a constant poking belittling reminder that Tyrion had Targ blood and that he was a cuckold.

I think GRRM would have had the above kind of logic in mind in writing that quote.  It is still true even after the A+J=T reveal.  Tywin really did try to love Tyrion and treat him as Lannister, but simply couldn't do it in the end due to him being a dwarf.  That is, it was always in Tywin's interests (given his character), for him to treat Tyrion as trueborn (whatever doubts/knowledge he had).

It is just an exquisite set up for a character like Tywin - who to my mind becomes one of the most interesting characters in all the books as a result.

The anti A+J=T view based on it diminishing the characters of Tyrion and Tywin misses a crucial thing -- making Tywin at least have strong doubts about Tyrion's parentage complicates and enriches the situation.  The view seems to be it creates a false simplicity or shallow mathematical clarity.  But it is far from it, in my view.

At the moment, due to his inexplicable mistreatment (except for being a dwarf) at the hands of Tywin, Tyrion feels justified in having killed his father.  He may feel regret that things ended up that way, but he clearly feels he was in the right.

The paradox and source of growth for Tyrion is that he will likely paradoxically feel more guilty about killing Tywin (who raised him as a Lannister after all and made him what he is) when he finds out, but then finally understand Tywin.

Sorry, this is repetitive; I just love the theory for how it improves the book imo.

[Aemon Targaryen]

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[Aemon Targaryen]

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