A+J=T v.8

[Aemon Targaryen]

On 25 January 2016 at 6:36 AM, purple-eyes said:

It is how GRRM described killing Tywin is the darkest deed in his life and he will be haunted for the rest of his life. Also he explained why he would kill his father due to some uncontrolled feeling. and also he mentioned that due to his, a kinslayer will be cursed all the time, etc.

This will ruin everything GRRM put on this figure and give him a convenient and shallow leaway.

So yeah, I agree - but that's why A+J=T is true!  Tyrion has the leeway now, but won't have it once he finds out (or will have much less of it, in his own mind).

To me, Tyrion deep down is a compassionate and wise soul.  He hated the sense that Tywin saw him as an ungrateful monster - and in a sense played up to that with his drinking and whoring ways.

Once he finds out, he will feel the horror of having misunderstood his father and for being an ungrateful son - Tywin having raised him, for whatever reason, despite him being a bastard as well as a dwarf.

It reminds me of something Tony Soprano once said to his psychiatrist Melfi -- the worst thing in the world is to be an ungrateful son.  This is when Tony should realise that his own mother is trying to have him whacked.

[ravenous reader]

35 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I thought Jaime is an oathbreaker, is mainly because he killed the king who he sworn to protect as a kingsguard.

This was repeated in his dream by other KG.

Not because he disobeyed his order to kill Tywin (although this is also a oathbreaking)

 

 

Jaime is always going on about the problematic of conflicting oaths. I meant, just to extrapolate on the bastard-besotted thematic, that if Jaime is the biological son of Aerys, then the order to Jaime, 'Kill your father,' who would 'technically' be Aerys, not Tywin, would place Jaime in a quandary. If he kills Aerys, then he is breaking his oath (to protect and defend the king). If he doesn't kill Aerys, then he is also breaking his oath (to obey the king's commands)... So, no matter what he does, you are right, there is no way out for Jaime!

[Aemon Targaryen]

On 25 January 2016 at 8:10 AM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

1: The only ones who would possibly know Jon's heritage are (were) Ned, Howland and then any help at the Tower ex. Wylla?

2:The show could be easy. Tyrion surmises after riding a Dragon "that he had always heard rumors/ whispers to being Aerys' bastard but thought is was because he was a dwarf and Tywin Lannister's son could never be a dwarf."

3: no. Most likely Varys is a Blackfyre or Brightflame descendant.

Thanks for that.  So Howland will be key I guess.  Not sure about your second answer.  The AJT reveal only works if it hits Tyrion over the head, so to speak - Tyrion's whole identity is based around being Tywin's (alienated) son.  In that sense, even if Tyrion is told about it, I don't think he'll believe it till he rides/bonds with Viserion.  As to the plausibility of that - that Tyrion wouldn't have considered Tywin wasn't his real father, given he's a dwarf and his other physical characteristics - I guess that comes down to the apparent implausibility of Tywin raising him if he is a bastard.  Tyrion will end up being convinced because it fits Tywin - the ultimate perverse expression of his Lannister pride (but also perhaps love for J).

In a writing sense, GRRM can make it more plausible to the audience by Tyrion himself refusing to believe it at first, even after it becomes fairly apparent to the audience.

[Aemon Targaryen]

On 25 January 2016 at 8:27 AM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

It MIGHT even make him feel guiltier.

He killed Tywin, but Tywin never publicly declared him a bastard, didn't have killed as an infant and let him have use of the Lannister riches.

Really, Tywin COULD have treated Tyrion A LOT worse if A + J + T

Right - in responding to the thread in order, I've repeated your point not seeing you already made it.

[Aemon Targaryen]

On 25 January 2016 at 9:00 AM, UnmaskedLurker said:

Good questions -- and ones I have asked myself on more than one occasion. In addition to the possibilities you suggest, I have thought of one additional possibility. Specifically, the possibility is that Jon is TPTWP and so he is not a product of rape, but the other two heads are. But I admit I have never completely come up with a theory that addresses this question of two heads being the product of rape but not the third.

Yeah, my spidey sense is telling me maybe to be the true Azhor Ahai one must be conceived out of love - sourced from the light (love), as well as the bringer of it.

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Yeah, my spidey sense is telling me maybe to be the true Azhor Ahai one must be conceived out of love - sourced from the light (love), as well as the bringer of it.

What type of opinion this is?

So savior/hero must be a product of love? other two heads can be just products of raping?

Are you impling the love-baby is more noble or important or significant or whatever than raping baby? So Jon is more qualified for the Saviour?

Seriously? You know King arthur is also a product of raping, right?

 

[Aemon Targaryen]

23 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

What type of opinion this is?

So savior/hero must be a product of love? other two heads can be just products of raping?

Are you impling the love-baby is more noble or important or significant or whatever than raping baby? So Jon is more qualified for the Saviour?

Seriously? You know King arthur is also a product of raping, right?

 

A pure guess based on no (or almost no) evidence (unlike AJT).  Rheagar-Lyanna just feels more central - both in causing chaos and then resolving it, and somehow that being a 'true love' match makes emotional sense (though it seems terribly cheesy when bluntly stated).  That's not to say that RL being in love is what makes Jon AA, just that that fits better.

Even if Jon is AA it doesn't mean that Jon's story won't be tragic, obviously.  It feels to me that Jon will never experience any real happiness as AA - and AA might be something quite different from Jon.  In contrast, it feels to me like Tyrion will be last man standing and be the one who sits the iron throne at the end of the War for the Dawn.

Another possibility is that despite RLJ Jon isn't the 3rd head but is AA - it could make sense that the 3 heads are Dany, Tyrion and fAegon/someone else, Jon is the trueborn but never rides a dragon, but is AA.  Or does AA have to ride a dragon?

[purple-eyes]

Oh, by the way, if Tyrion is a hidden targ, then we can almost be sure that he is one dragon head.

Then should not Rhaegar tell Dany in the undying hall that "there must be two more" (Jon and Tyrion) ?

 

[A spoon of knife and fork]

38 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Oh, by the way, if Tyrion is a hidden targ, then we can almost be sure that he is one dragon head.

Then should not Rhaegar tell Dany in the undying hall that "there must be two more" (Jon and Tyrion) ?

Dany was seeing a vision of the past.  At the time Rhaegar believed that Aegon and Rhaenys were heads one and two.  So unless we think the three heads are Aegon, Rhaenys, and Dany it doesn't make much sense to think he's actually addressing her. In reality he's telling Elia that he needs another kid.  

And Anyway with your interpretation you have this problem no matter who is the third head, not just Tyrion.

[UnmaskedLurker]

5 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Symbolically, however, it could also be a consequence of the 'blood' element required to birth a dragon/Targarean ('fire'). A blood sacrifice was also required for the birth of Dany's dragons (magic). Blood magic is also tied to the 'genetics of magic'-- Targaryean exceptionalism and elitism (that only they can be dragonriders, and that this facility is passed down by genetics exclusively). Curiously, I've previously written posts on how children may inherit certain traits governing temperament and behavior from their biological parents, and received a lot of resistance from those claiming that 'nurture' explains all similarities. However, when it comes to magic, genetics reigns, and no-one has yet suggested the nurture hypothesis!

Just like no amount of "nurture" can give someone blue eyes -- no amount of nurture will allow someone to have the ability to warg or bond with a dragon. The story makes pretty clear which things GRRM thinks are purely inherited -- and which are more influenced by environment. Personality traits are repeatedly shown by GRRM to be guided in great measure by environment. Other aspects -- like hair color and certain magical abilities are purely genetic. An attentive reader can pretty much figure out which is which.

 

50 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Oh, by the way, if Tyrion is a hidden targ, then we can almost be sure that he is one dragon head.

Then should not Rhaegar tell Dany in the undying hall that "there must be two more" (Jon and Tyrion) ?

 

Great question -- and one that ASoKaF basically answered more of less how I would have (thanks ASoKaF).

But I will add that I have had a repeated debate with other people on whether Rhaegar is talking to Dany "magically" in the vision -- or whether the conversation really happened between Rhaegar and Elia in the past as it is seen in the vision. One of the main arguments for why it clearly is a real conversation from the past is the reference to "one more" which makes no sense for a conversation with Dany under any scenario. No matter who the other two heads happen to be -- Dany would not know the identity of either.

So under any circumstances, if Rhaegar is talking to Dany, he would say there must be two more or tell her to find the other two. But he only says there must be one more -- because he assumes Rhaenys and Aegon are two of the three. He is wrong -- of course -- and Dany knows he was wrong. But Dany gets the message loud and clear. Dany understand that even though Rhaegar thought Rhaenys, Aegon and presumably a third child of his would be the three heads -- she realizes that she is one of the heads -- and she needs to find the other two men who she can trust who are the other two heads (she basically says as much in another scene).

So basically, the statement about there must be one more is a problem no matter whether Tyrion is the third head -- fAegon or someone else is the third head (assuming Jon to be the second head for this purpose). Dany would not know of any of them -- Jon, Tyrion, fAegon or any other candidate. So your point is no more an argument against AJT than any other possible head of the dragon because Dany only knows of one of the heads -- herself. Basically, Rhaegar was wrong -- talking about his own children -- but Dany knew what message the vision really had for her from these words and interpreted it correctly. She knew that she has to find two more -- and she will before the series is over (and you know I think the other two are Jon and Tyrion -- her nephew and half-brother).

[purple-eyes]

17 minutes ago, A spoon of knife and fork said:

Dany was seeing a vision of the past.  At the time Rhaegar believed that Aegon and Rhaenys were heads one and two.  So unless we think the three heads are Aegon, Rhaenys, and Dany it doesn't make much sense to think he's actually addressing her. In reality he's telling Elia that he needs another kid.  

And Anyway with your interpretation you have this problem no matter who is the third head, not just Tyrion.

That is true.

I know he is talking with Elia, but obviously GRRM made it prophetic and mysterious here.

Actually you know what, this made me think that Rhaegar was not talking about that he wanted Dany to find Jon, because, like you said, there are two more heads Dany needs to find, no matter it is Tyrion, or Aegon, or Euron, whoever. not just one more head.

I re-read that part and I think this vision is about Jon is the promised prince.

Rhaegar is telling Dany: he is the prince that was promised, his song is song of ice and fire.

This is a hint that Jon Snow is the prince that was promised. Not Dany.

 

 

 

[purple-eyes]

4 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Just like no amount of "nurture" can give someone blue eyes -- no amount of nurture will allow someone to have the ability to warg or bond with a dragon. The story makes pretty clear which things GRRM thinks are purely inherited -- and which are more influenced by environment. Personality traits are repeatedly shown by GRRM to be guided in great measure by environment. Other aspects -- like hair color and certain magical abilities are purely genetic. An attentive reader can pretty much figure out which is which.

 

Great question -- and one that ASoKaF basically answered more of less how I would have (thanks ASoKaF).

But I will add that I have had a repeated debate with other people on whether Rhaegar is talking to Dany "magically" in the vision -- or whether the conversation really happened between Rhaegar and Elia in the past as it is seen in the vision. One of the main arguments for why it clearly is a real conversation from the past is the reference to "one more" which makes no sense for a conversation with Dany under any scenario. No matter who the other two heads happen to be -- Dany would not know the identity of either.

So under any circumstances, if Rhaegar is talking to Dany, he would say there must be two more or tell her to find the other two. But he only says there must be one more -- because he assumes Rhaenys and Aegon are two of the three. He is wrong -- of course -- and Dany knows he was wrong. But Dany gets the message loud and clear. Dany understand that even though Rhaegar thought Rhaenys, Aegon and presumably a third child of his would be the three heads -- she realizes that she is one of the heads -- and she needs to find the other two men who she can trust who are the other two heads (she basically says as much in another scene).

So basically, the statement about there must be one more is a problem no matter whether Tyrion is the third head -- fAegon or someone else is the third head (assuming Jon to be the second head for this purpose). Dany would not know of any of them -- Jon, Tyrion, fAegon or any other candidate. So your point is no more an argument against AJT than any other possible head of the dragon because Dany only knows of one of the heads -- herself. Basically, Rhaegar was wrong -- talking about his own children -- but Dany knew what message the vision really had for her from these words and interpreted it correctly. She knew that she has to find two more -- and she will before the series is over (and you know I think the other two are Jon and Tyrion -- her nephew and half-brother).

Oh, somebody replied this and I agree.

I had a new feeling that this information about "third head" is not the key point which rhaegar wanted to tell Dany.

Like you said, no matter who are the two heads, there are two more heads, not just one.

I think the first sentence about promised prince is the information which rhaegar passed to Dany. The second sentence about third head is the information he passed to Elia.

Here is the quote:

"Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads."

So when he said the first sentence, he was looking at Dany already.

Rhaegar is "magically" telling dany that Jon snow is the promised prince and his song is the song of ice and fire.

And the next sentence "there must be one more", is more towards to Elia about their current situation: Rhaenys and Aegon.

[Lord Lannister]

On 1/25/2016 at 2:33 PM, purple-eyes said:

Tywin is Tyrion's father all the time in GRRM's talk.

 

That's rather a rather meaningless straw man argument. If there is something there, Martin's just not going to let it slip in any sort of interview or fan setting.

[UnmaskedLurker]

10 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Oh, somebody replied this and I agree.

I had a new feeling that this information about "third head" is not the key point which rhaegar wanted to tell Dany.

Like you said, no matter who are the two heads, there are two more heads, not just one.

I think the first sentence about promised prince is the information which rhaegar passed to Dany. The second sentence about third head is the information he passed to Elia.

Here is the quote:

"Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.

“He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “There must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “The dragon has three heads."

So when he said the first sentence, he was looking at Dany already.

Rhaegar is "magically" telling dany that Jon snow is the promised prince and his song is the song of ice and fire.

And the next sentence "there must be one more", is more towards to Elia about their current situation: Rhaenys and Aegon.

I don't see it that way. I think that the entire conversation is between Rhaegar and Elia -- Rhaegar at that time thinks that Aegon is TPTWP and is talking about Aegon and not Jon. The point is not the Rhaegar is knowingly giving a message to Dany -- Rhaegar is dead. The point is that by allowing Dany to see this conversation that Rhaegar had with Elia -- Dany is being given important information that she will need to complete her task in "saving the world" as one of the heads of the dragon. The "vision" makes it appear that Rhaegar is talking to Dany so that she understands that she needs to pay attention to these words. But the words are not magically being changed for Dany -- they are the words that Rhegar stated to Elia. The magic is in allowing Dany to see this scene from the past and making it appear as though Rhaeagar is looking at Dany. In context, I believe it is clear that the conversation is a word-for-word conversation that Rhaegar actually had with Elia shortly after Aegon was born -- and Dany is "magically" being allowed to see it with Rhaegar being placed at such an angle as to make him appear to be talking to her directly when he really is talking to Elia.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

15 hours ago, Aemon Targaryen said:

Thanks for that.  So Howland will be key I guess.  Not sure about your second answer.  The AJT reveal only works if it hits Tyrion over the head, so to speak - Tyrion's whole identity is based around being Tywin's (alienated) son.  In that sense, even if Tyrion is told about it, I don't think he'll believe it till he rides/bonds with Viserion.  As to the plausibility of that - that Tyrion wouldn't have considered Tywin wasn't his real father, given he's a dwarf and his other physical characteristics - I guess that comes down to the apparent implausibility of Tywin raising him if he is a bastard.  Tyrion will end up being convinced because it fits Tywin - the ultimate perverse expression of his Lannister pride (but also perhaps love for J).

In a writing sense, GRRM can make it more plausible to the audience by Tyrion himself refusing to believe it at first, even after it becomes fairly apparent to the audience.

Were are talking about the show version "Game of Thrones". As well as they do with SOME things, they also dumb it down a lot.

I wouldn't hold your breath for something deep and character changing for anything in the show.

 

[ravenous reader]

12 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Just like no amount of "nurture" can give someone blue eyes -- no amount of nurture will allow someone to have the ability to warg or bond with a dragon

We are not in disagreement. So far, nothing in the text has suggested otherwise. If anyone could acquire these magical abilities (just as, say LF has been able to rise from nowhere and acquire wealth, lands, power, influence), then magic would lose its lustre, and there would be no point in writing in the fantasy genre.

 

13 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

The story makes pretty clear which things GRRM thinks are purely inherited -- and which are more influenced by environment. Personality traits are repeatedly shown by GRRM to be guided in great measure by environment

Not sure it's as clear as that. As stated above, I agree on the inviolability of the 'genetics of magic.' I'm not sold, however, that all other mental capabilities (including intelligence, personality, mental illness, etc.) have a purely environmental basis-- neither in the world in which we live nor in that created by GRRM. As far as mental illness, the Targaryean lineage speaks for itself. As another example, take Gendry. Although he never met his biological father, he shares many characteristics (including personality and various aptitudes) with Robert Baratheon (e.g. his aptitude with a hammer, his stubbornness, his quick temper...'ours is the fury'), as well as the uncanny affinity and relationship dynamic between Arya and Gendry, which mirrors that of their fathers. I don't think a purely nurture argument can account for these patterns. A further example is Ramsay. He spent his formative years unaware of his father's identity. Didn't he only meet him in his early teens? Yet, both are full-blown psychopaths (btw, personality disorders are thought to have a 50:50 genetic:environmental contribution, and to have an onset earlier than other mental disorders-- but even if you discard modern science, the recapitulations evident in the text are not fully explicable using nurture arguments alone).

 

13 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

An attentive reader can pretty much figure out which is which.

 It's not that clear-cut. GRRM likes to leave his options open, and keep us guessing. Without the trope of ambiguous identity, the narrative would get pretty boring and trite. I'll concede, the Tyrion intelligence/personality issue could go either way. However, taking all the other evidence into consideration, I am persuaded that the accumulation of such points more towards Tyrion being a Targ. On the other hand, there's just as much evidence that Cersei, Jaime, and Joffrey are Targs as well. Without a modern paternity test, it's difficult to say for sure. Regarding Tyrion, we've already had the direwolf-sniff paternity test; for a higher sensitivity and specificity, let's await the appraisal of the dragons..!

[purple-eyes]

2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

We are not in disagreement. So far, nothing in the text has suggested otherwise. If anyone could acquire these magical abilities (just as, say LF has been able to rise from nowhere and acquire wealth, lands, power, influence), then magic would lose its lustre, and there would be no point in writing in the fantasy genre.

 

Not sure it's as clear as that. As stated above, I agree on the inviolability of the 'genetics of magic.' I'm not sold, however, that all other mental capabilities (including intelligence, personality, mental illness, etc.) have a purely environmental basis-- neither in the world in which we live nor in that created by GRRM. As far as mental illness, the Targaryean lineage speaks for itself. As another example, take Gendry. Although he never met his biological father, he shares many characteristics (including personality and various aptitudes) with Robert Baratheon (e.g. his aptitude with a hammer, his stubbornness, his quick temper...'ours is the fury'), as well as the uncanny affinity and relationship dynamic between Arya and Gendry, which mirrors that of their fathers. I don't think a purely nurture argument can account for these patterns. A further example is Ramsay. He spent his formative years unaware of his father's identity. Didn't he only meet him in his early teens? Yet, both are full-blown psychopaths (btw, personality disorders are thought to have a 50:50 genetic:environmental contribution, and to have an onset earlier than other mental disorders-- but even if you discard modern science, the recapitulations evident in the text are not fully explicable using nurture arguments alone).

 

 It's not that clear-cut. GRRM likes to leave his options open, and keep us guessing. Without the trope of ambiguous identity, the narrative would get pretty boring and trite. I'll concede, the Tyrion intelligence/personality issue could go either way. However, taking all the other evidence into consideration, I am persuaded that the accumulation of such points more towards Tyrion being a Targ. On the other hand, there's just as much evidence that Cersei, Jaime, and Joffrey are Targs as well. Without a modern paternity test, it's difficult to say for sure. Regarding Tyrion, we've already had the direwolf-sniff paternity test; for a higher sensitivity and specificity, let's await the appraisal of the dragons..!

That is why it is suspicious. 

As many of us suggested, dragon riding will become a DNA test for jon snow. 

So you think grrm will play this card again for tyrion to prove he is a hidden targ? 

Ok, howland came to tell about lyanna, then a dragon test, yeah, a targ jon snow. 

Now barri or varys came to tell about Joanna, then a dragon test, yeah, a targ tyrion. 

For two major figures, almost repeating. 

Do not you think grrm is better than this? 

[UnmaskedLurker]

39 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

We are not in disagreement. So far, nothing in the text has suggested otherwise. If anyone could acquire these magical abilities (just as, say LF has been able to rise from nowhere and acquire wealth, lands, power, influence), then magic would lose its lustre, and there would be no point in writing in the fantasy genre.

 

Not sure it's as clear as that. As stated above, I agree on the inviolability of the 'genetics of magic.' I'm not sold, however, that all other mental capabilities (including intelligence, personality, mental illness, etc.) have a purely environmental basis-- neither in the world in which we live nor in that created by GRRM. As far as mental illness, the Targaryean lineage speaks for itself. As another example, take Gendry. Although he never met his biological father, he shares many characteristics (including personality and various aptitudes) with Robert Baratheon (e.g. his aptitude with a hammer, his stubbornness, his quick temper...'ours is the fury'), as well as the uncanny affinity and relationship dynamic between Arya and Gendry, which mirrors that of their fathers. I don't think a purely nurture argument can account for these patterns. A further example is Ramsay. He spent his formative years unaware of his father's identity. Didn't he only meet him in his early teens? Yet, both are full-blown psychopaths (btw, personality disorders are thought to have a 50:50 genetic:environmental contribution, and to have an onset earlier than other mental disorders-- but even if you discard modern science, the recapitulations evident in the text are not fully explicable using nurture arguments alone).

 

 It's not that clear-cut. GRRM likes to leave his options open, and keep us guessing. Without the trope of ambiguous identity, the narrative would get pretty boring and trite. I'll concede, the Tyrion intelligence/personality issue could go either way. However, taking all the other evidence into consideration, I am persuaded that the accumulation of such points more towards Tyrion being a Targ. On the other hand, there's just as much evidence that Cersei, Jaime, and Joffrey are Targs as well. Without a modern paternity test, it's difficult to say for sure. Regarding Tyrion, we've already had the direwolf-sniff paternity test; for a higher sensitivity and specificity, let's await the appraisal of the dragons..!

I basically agree with everything you have written and admit I overstated my case before. I think that GRRM makes it clear in certain cases that nurture can have a great influence over certain personality traits. I agree that "Targ madness" seems to have a genetic component -- and other personality traits as well. For example, assuming RLJ, I think that Jon seems to get some personality traits from Ned (largely nurture -- although admittedly Ned is still his uncle) and some from Rhaegar (obviously nature). I merely mean that while some things are basically entirely genetic (like hair color, eye color and magic ability), other things, personality and temperament, have been shown in the series to have a strong environmental component (but not necessarily exclusive). 

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

That is why it is suspicious. 

As many of us suggested, dragon riding will become a DNA test for jon snow. 

So you think grrm will play this card again for tyrion to prove he is a hidden targ? 

Ok, howland came to tell about lyanna, then a dragon test, yeah, a targ jon snow. 

Now barri or varys came to tell about Joanna, then a dragon test, yeah, a targ tyrion. 

For two major figures, almost repeating. 

Do not you think grrm is better than this? 

GRRM repeats himself ALL the time

Character with a dead mother who is raised as an outsider but slowly rises to power? Lets do that 3 times.

Daenerys, Tyrion and Jon are almost on the exact same trajectory.

A child whose mother dies in child birth, start on the outskirts of society (bastard, dwarf, exile) who slowly find out that they are better than those around them, who gain power unexpectedly (LC, Hand, Queen/ Mother of Dragons), then fall (Stabbed, on trial/ on the run, stranded with Drogon) .... we all assume that they will rise back up and succeed again.

I think the main difference between Jon and Tyrion will be the surprise nature of the Dragon bonding. I foresee Tyrion's being quite on accident (and being first), perhaps as he goes to see the Dragons he has dreamed of all his life.

Where Jon's Targaryen heritage will be revealed to the readers well before he is near a dragon, and the surprise will be him running in to a dragon rather than bonding with it.

 

[Jô Maltese]

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

That is why it is suspicious. 

As many of us suggested, dragon riding will become a DNA test for jon snow. 

So you think grrm will play this card again for tyrion to prove he is a hidden targ? 

Ok, howland came to tell about lyanna, then a dragon test, yeah, a targ jon snow. 

Now barri or varys came to tell about Joanna, then a dragon test, yeah, a targ tyrion. 

For two major figures, almost repeating. 

Do not you think grrm is better than this? 

Dragon riding is not a given at all for Jon in the short term. I actually can't think of any convincing textual hint that Jon will be riding a dragon at all. Hints that he IS a Dragon do exist of course, and many think (inc. me) that his DNA test is somewhere in Winterfell crypts (Lyanna's tomb?) and not on the back of a dragon. 

On the other hand, Tyrion dragon rider has been suggested since the beginning of the series and is a much safer bet than AJT in the very short term IMHO.

I explained once that the fact that Jon may never ride a dragon could be the reason why the RLJ textual clues were clearer and more frequent than the ones for AJT: once Tyrion rides Viserion, the reader and the people of Westeros will suddenly know AJT is a strong possibility; for Jon a simple testimony (HR?) would not convince the readers had the clues not been so telling before.