Jump to content

A+J=T v.8


UnmaskedLurker

Recommended Posts

Those Varys-Tyrion banters only make sense if Varys is actually a descendant of the Targaryen branch of the family. If he comes from the Blackfyre branch they would be very distant cousins indeed. In light of the fact that no Lannisters refers to the Kyndalls or the Webbers as their family - not even the Marbrands, in fact - it would be rather strange if something like that was the case with Varys and Tyrion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jo Maltese said:

Slowly but surely, you are joining the A+J=T club... ;)

As I'very said before, I think TJT is more likely true than AJT. I am hoping that we will never know definitively, and we can keep this thread going in perpetuity. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Those Varys-Tyrion banters only make sense if Varys is actually a descendant of the Targaryen branch of the family. If he comes from the Blackfyre branch they would be very distant cousins indeed. In light of the fact that no Lannisters refers to the Kyndalls or the Webbers as their family - not even the Marbrands, in fact - it would be rather strange if something like that was the case with Varys and Tyrion.

Talking about this, I am curious about his eye color. 

He is from Lys, so if he has purple eyes, it should be normal. People can accept it without thinking he is a secret Targ or blackfyre. 

But nobody mentioned his eye color at all.

I guess his eye color will attract too much attention so GRRM chose to be silent. 

Either purple, or blue like Serra.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am of the opinion that George would not have been SO ambiguous and put SO many subtle clues and hints in if it wasn't at least going to be implied later in the story. It seems most people think the implication will be Tyrion riding Viserion, and I agree. I also remember a SSM in which he says something along the lines of....and I'm paraphrasing... "Imagine Tyrion on a dragon....oh the mischief he will. ..err...could cause"

I am in the camp that Tyrion will be a dragon rider, and one of the heads of the Dragon. I would love Jon to be the third, and he may very well be. But I'm of the opinion that Rhaeghal will have more than one rider and that the first rider, either fAegon or BBP or Viserion or Euron or whoever, will be one of Dany's betrayals and will die allowing Rhaeghal free to bond again. Before ever seeing a fan theory video on YouTube or seeing a forum or hearing a podcast, the two things I came to believe on my own were that Tyrion and Jon were both Targs and that Jon is most likely trueborn and Tyrion most likely a bastard. I really should start putting things down in essays and pulling quotes etc., it's just hard with 2 kids under 3 years old and having just started a business. ...Sigh... One day....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

I am of the opinion that George would not have been SO ambiguous and put SO many subtle clues and hints in if it wasn't at least going to be implied later in the story. It seems most people think the implication will be Tyrion riding Viserion, and I agree. I also remember a SSM in which he says something along the lines of....and I'm paraphrasing... "Imagine Tyrion on a dragon....oh the mischief he will. ..err...could cause"

I am in the camp that Tyrion will be a dragon rider, and one of the heads of the Dragon. I would love Jon to be the third, and he may very well be. But I'm of the opinion that Rhaeghal will have more than one rider and that the first rider, either fAegon or BBP or Viserion or Euron or whoever, will be one of Dany's betrayals and will die allowing Rhaeghal free to bond again. Before ever seeing a fan theory video on YouTube or seeing a forum or hearing a podcast, the two things I came to believe on my own were that Tyrion and Jon were both Targs and that Jon is most likely trueborn and Tyrion most likely a bastard. I really should start putting things down in essays and pulling quotes etc., it's just hard with 2 kids under 3 years old and having just started a business. ...Sigh... One day....

I also agree tyrion will ride dragon, but I think it is also possible that he ride it by dragon binder. In fact, after looking at the cover of winds and also the HBO show, I have to say this is getting more likely to be true. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:
47 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

 

said by purple-eyes

 

I also agree tyrion will ride dragon, but I think it is also possible that he ride it by dragon binder. In fact, after looking at the cover of winds and also the HBO show, I have to say this is getting more likely to be true. 

 

 

 

said by me

I refuse to use anything that happens in the show as a clue about anything in the books. Besides that, what happens in the show to make anyone think Tyrion will use a horn to ride a dragon?

As far as the Horn on the cover of Winds, that looks like the one Jon found and Sam is in possession of.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

 

 

 

said by me

I refuse to use anything that happens in the show as a clue about anything in the books. Besides that, what happens in the show to make anyone think Tyrion will use a horn to ride a dragon?

As far as the Horn on the cover of Winds, that looks like the one Jon found and Sam is in possession of.

Sure, show is not very reliable. But if in the book tyrion needs to be a Targ to ride a dragon and he is indeed a Targ, I bet HBO show will include this and put heads up in five seasons. 

However, if tyrion is a lannister and he used horn to ride in the book, then they can simply introduced it with euron in season six. euron has a lot of plots in new season, it has to be related to dragons. How? By dragon horn probably. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

said by me

I refuse to use anything that happens in the show as a clue about anything in the books. Besides that, what happens in the show to make anyone think Tyrion will use a horn to ride a dragon?

As far as the Horn on the cover of Winds, that looks like the one Jon found and Sam is in possession of.

Sure, show is not very reliable. But if in the book tyrion needs to be a Targ to ride a dragon and he is indeed a Targ, I bet HBO show will include this and put heads up in five seasons. 

However, if tyrion is a lannister and he used horn to ride in the book, then they can simply introduced it with euron in season six. euron has a lot of plots in new season, it has to be related to dragons. How? By dragon horn probably. 

Purple above

I say

That is a huge leap. You said from the way the show is going it looks like he will use a horn to ride a dragon. But, there's no dragon horn in the show. There is however, Tyrion taking to Jon about Bastards and Dwarves, there's Tywin telling Tyrion that he will never rule Casterly Rock and that he only has his name because he couldn't prove Tyrion wasn't his son. There's even Tywin telling Tyrion straight out that he's not his son. There's a decent amount of clues. Just as many for this theory as there are for the other major hidden Targ theory. But, definitely no horn, that's for sure.

Doing quotes on my phone is not easy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

 

Sure, show is not very reliable. But if in the book tyrion needs to be a Targ to ride a dragon and he is indeed a Targ, I bet HBO show will include this and put heads up in five seasons. 

However, if tyrion is a lannister and he used horn to ride in the book, then they can simply introduced it with euron in season six. euron has a lot of plots in new season, it has to be related to dragons. How? By dragon horn probably. 

Purple above

I say

That is a huge leap. You said from the way the show is going it looks like he will use a horn to ride a dragon. But, there's no dragon horn in the show. There is however, Tyrion taking to Jon about Bastards and Dwarves, there's Tywin telling Tyrion that he will never rule Casterly Rock and that he only has his name because he couldn't prove Tyrion wasn't his son. There's even Tywin telling Tyrion straight out that he's not his son. There's a decent amount of clues. Just as many for this theory as there are for the other major hidden Targ theory. But, definitely no horn, that's for sure.

Doing quotes on my phone is not easy

I agree that using the show to predict for the book is tricky -- but not useless. D&D have said that they are telling the same basic story, and it will have the same basic ending.

So the question becomes, how central to the ending would it be if Tyrion is really a Targ bastard? I would think somewhat central -- but not so central that it must be the same in both versions.

I Tyrion is revealed to be a Targ bastard on the show -- or alternatively, for example, if he rides a dragon without being a Targ bastard -- these plot developments in the show certainly would seem to make it more likely that the book resolves these issues the same way -- but probably cannot be certain until the book series reveals one way or the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/14/2016 at 7:09 AM, Lord Varys said:

Those Varys-Tyrion banters only make sense if Varys is actually a descendant of the Targaryen branch of the family. If he comes from the Blackfyre branch they would be very distant cousins indeed. In light of the fact that no Lannisters refers to the Kyndalls or the Webbers as their family - not even the Marbrands, in fact - it would be rather strange if something like that was the case with Varys and Tyrion.

If A+J=T, then Tyrion would be a bastard (perhaps a Hill or Rivers) so Targaryen, Brightflame Targaryen or Blackfyre they would not really be family anyway.

I think it is more about setting the stage, giving you the idea that Varys and Tyrion are related somehow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

If A+J=T, then Tyrion would be a bastard (perhaps a Hill or Rivers) so Targaryen, Brightflame Targaryen or Blackfyre they would not really be family anyway.

I think it is more about setting the stage, giving you the idea that Varys and Tyrion are related somehow.

Why not king aerys had a secret polygamy marriage with Joanna so that tyrion is a true born? 

He is a targ king and he is above gods and men. Polygamy is lawful for him. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Why not king aerys had a secret polygamy marriage with Joanna so that tyrion is a true born? 

He is a targ king and he is above gods and men. Polygamy is lawful for him. 

ok, other than you are just trolling...

There is no evidence that Joanna was a willing participant in A+J (maybe she was/ maybe she wasn't)

Joanna was already married to Tywin at this point, so while there is evidence that they Targaryens can have two wives, there is no precedent of a non-Targaryen and a women having two husbands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

stuff

D&D can say things, but whether they are actually telling the truth is open to debate. They may be of 'the opinion' that the story they told in the last seasons, especially in the last season, is still 'the same basic story as George is telling in the books' but that is open to debate and interpretation (e.g. I can say ''Game of Thrones' is a bad adaptation of 'A Song of Ice and Fire'' and then we can discuss this claim but me saying that doesn't make it so - and neither does D&D stating their intention what they want to do or giving their opinion on what they did make those claims true).

I would say that in light of the departure from the books the show has taken it is actually very unlikely that certain core themes and issues the books deal with will even come up in the show. Prophecy essentially plays no role in the show in regards to Daenerys, Jon Snow, or Tyrion. In addition, neither has Dragonbinder been established in the show nor is there any other dragonlore stuff in there. We don't know if the dragons in the show for the unique bonds with their riders the historical Targaryens formed with them in the books. In addition, the lack of both Victarion and Brown Ben Plumm makes it quite unlikely that the third dragonrider will be the same in the show as in the book (it could easily be Varys in the show).

Finally, there is no hint as of yet that 'special blood' is needed to become a dragonrider in the show, so this whole question might not even be raised in the show, either. Some people just might become dragonriders, period. That way Tyrion's heritage might essentially remain a non-issue in the show. If D&D like George's idea to make a Tyrion a dragonrider but resent the idea of Tyrion being a Targaryen descendant that's the way how they could go along with this.

The Rhaegar-Lyanna story in the show will also be completely different from the book version (already apparent in the travesty of Rhaegar Selmy has painted in the show if I remember the last season correctly) - it will be most likely be nothing but a love story, completely cutting the entire prophecy-savior angle. That one never made it into the show, after all.

In essence I find it very irritating that people actually see still enough comparisons between books and show to even enable to make such comparisons. They are two separate entities and it is largely wishful thinking on the part of the person trying to see parallels between the two when they are looking for 'core elements of the story' that should be the same in both books and show.

Show and books are now so far apart from each other that both will only have the same ending if you compare the two on the level of a blurb consisting of three paragraphs or so. The show is about different characters, tells different story, and takes place in a different setting.

In Tyrion's case one may be able to make a good case that if he is revealed to Joanna's son by Aerys this could be hint that this will also be the case in the books - simply because I don't think D&D are smart enough to come up with such a plot line completely on their own. But then, they technically had now enough time with the characters they created to decide that they want to take that path regardless what George does. Jaime and Cersei were still very much in love last season, so they are clearly capable of changing characters completely (not to mention Littlefinger) with no good reason. Such a thing could also be the case with Tyrion's Targaryen identity. We simply cannot know unless George would tell us what he has in store for Tyrion.

1 hour ago, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

If A+J=T, then Tyrion would be a bastard (perhaps a Hill or Rivers) so Targaryen, Brightflame Targaryen or Blackfyre they would not really be family anyway.

I think it is more about setting the stage, giving you the idea that Varys and Tyrion are related somehow.

If Varys was a descendant of Prince Maegor or of any other descendant of Maekar I he certainly would be much closer related with his bastard cousin Tyrion Hill than if Varys was descended from some obscure Blackfyre. The Targaryen-Blackfyre split occurred among the children of Aegon IV - that is three generations removed from Egg/Aerion and four from Prince Maegor - and if Daeron II was 'falseborn' which Varys may actually believe if he is a Blackfyre descendant - then the first common ancestors of Varys and Tyrion would be Viserys II and Larra Rogare. That is a long way back - they would be such distant cousins that considering each other as kin or even family would be a pretty big stretch.

To our knowledge neither the Tarths nor the Martells or the Penroses are considered to be 'family of the Targaryens' during the days of Aerys II. Not even the Baratheons are, although Rhaegar refers to Robert as his cousin.

If Varys isn't a Blackfyre descendant but a Targaryen descendant (either legitimate or illegitimate as Tyrion would be) then those comments could lead to something. But in the Blackfyre scenario they make little sense.

By the way: Varys as a Targaryen descendant would, of course, add a much more subtle layer to the Aegon plan thing. Varys/Illyrio might in such a scenario much less motivated by revenge but by other things. The Targaryens have little reason to love or work with the Blackfyres and vice versa - but if Illyrio is a Blackfyre descendant then Varys and Illyrio obviously overcame that problem. Which could explain why they didn't kill Viserys and Dany but included them into their plans, and why they have no problems to restore Aegon Targaryen to the Iron Throne (or putting a person on the Iron Throne who claims to be Aegon Targaryen).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

I agree that using the show to predict for the book is tricky -- but not useless. D&D have said that they are telling the same basic story, and it will have the same basic ending.

So the question becomes, how central to the ending would it be if Tyrion is really a Targ bastard? I would think somewhat central -- but not so central that it must be the same in both versions.

I Tyrion is revealed to be a Targ bastard on the show -- or alternatively, for example, if he rides a dragon without being a Targ bastard -- these plot developments in the show certainly would seem to make it more likely that the book resolves these issues the same way -- but probably cannot be certain until the book series reveals one way or the other.

Right, but my point to purple was that the show has foreshadowed Tyrion being a Targ, or at least a bastard, while as yet we have seen no dragon binding horn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

Right, but my point to purple was that the show has foreshadowed Tyrion being a Targ, or at least a bastard, while as yet we have seen no dragon binding horn.

Yes, of course you are correct. I tend to think it likely that Tyrion will be revealed to be a Targ bastard on the show as well as in the books -- but I was trying to avoid making any specific statements about the TV show.

I was only commenting on the part of your post dealing with the reliability of using the show to predict the books. I think that way too many people here want to dismiss the TV show as more or less useless in predicting the books. Personally, I think that is foolish. While the show has and will continue to make meaningful plot changes -- the basic outcome for the main characters will likely be the same in both. Precisely how they get there may be different -- and in some cases even where the end up might be somewhat different -- but in broad contours, the ultimate outcomes will probably be more or less the same.

For example, not that too many people doubt that Jon will come back -- if he comes back in the TV show, I think that is fairly good evidence that he likely comes back in the books. Similarly, if Tyrion is revealed to be a Targ bastard on the TV show, I think that is fairly good evidence that he likely will be revealed to be a Targ bastard in the books.

I am not making any particular predictions about what will happen on the TV show because the moderators have set up rules indicating that this forum is for book discussion only and talk of the TV show is restricted to that sub-forum. I am not sure how they are going to manage that separation after the TV show gets way ahead of the books -- but that is a topic for another day after the moderators have clarified the procedures (which I hope they will do prior to the start of the new season).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Varys was a descendant of Prince Maegor or of any other descendant of Maekar I he certainly would be much closer related with his bastard cousin Tyrion Hill than if Varys was descended from some obscure Blackfyre. The Targaryen-Blackfyre split occurred among the children of Aegon IV - that is three generations removed from Egg/Aerion and four from Prince Maegor - and if Daeron II was 'falseborn' which Varys may actually believe if he is a Blackfyre descendant - then the first common ancestors of Varys and Tyrion would be Viserys II and Larra Rogare. That is a long way back - they would be such distant cousins that considering each other as kin or even family would be a pretty big stretch.

To our knowledge neither the Tarths nor the Martells or the Penroses are considered to be 'family of the Targaryens' during the days of Aerys II. Not even the Baratheons are, although Rhaegar refers to Robert as his cousin.

If Varys isn't a Blackfyre descendant but a Targaryen descendant (either legitimate or illegitimate as Tyrion would be) then those comments could lead to something. But in the Blackfyre scenario they make little sense.

By the way: Varys as a Targaryen descendant would, of course, add a much more subtle layer to the Aegon plan thing. Varys/Illyrio might in such a scenario much less motivated by revenge but by other things. The Targaryens have little reason to love or work with the Blackfyres and vice versa - but if Illyrio is a Blackfyre descendant then Varys and Illyrio obviously overcame that problem. Which could explain why they didn't kill Viserys and Dany but included them into their plans, and why they have no problems to restore Aegon Targaryen to the Iron Throne (or putting a person on the Iron Throne who claims to be Aegon Targaryen).

Just for the record I tend to believe that Varys is a descendant of Brightflame, Illyrio's wife is a Blackfyre (as well as fAegon).

At some point after Varys had his junk used in a magic King's Blood ritual, Illyrio found him and saved him. Illyrio's plan being that he could use his skills and his ancestry to help his wife's legacy take back the Iron Throne.

 

This would also somewhat mirror their intentions with Tyrion. A cast off of Targaryen descent that has skills that can be used to take the Throne for fAegon. Jorah screwed that up for them, but it has a symmetry to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On February 15, 2016 at 3:52 PM, King Viserys Targaryen IV said:

ok, other than you are just trolling...

There is no evidence that Joanna was a willing participant in A+J (maybe she was/ maybe she wasn't)

Joanna was already married to Tywin at this point, so while there is evidence that they Targaryens can have two wives, there is no precedent of a non-Targaryen and a women having two husbands.

You are wrong. 

What I meant is that Joanna married aerys secretly before her marriage with Tywin. She had affair with him much earlier than her wedding. 

So her marriage with aerys is genuine (by your logic with RLJ). Her marriage with Tywin was fake. 

By the way, merry meg married her husband as well as aegon IV by a secret wedding. If you think RLJ marriage is true, then she is an example of a non targ woman marrying two husbands. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

You are wrong. 

What I meant is that Joanna married aerys secretly before her marriage with Tywin. She had affair with him much earlier than her wedding. 

So her marriage with aerys is genuine (by your logic with RLJ). Her marriage with Tywin was fake. 

By the way, merry meg married her husband as well as aegon IV by a secret wedding. If you think RLJ marriage is true, then she is an example of a non targ woman marrying two husbands. 

Megette was married to her husband. The "marriage" to Aegon was no true marriage at all, as it was performed by a mummer, not a septon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...