A+J=T v.8

[A spoon of knife and fork]

 

You would be mistaken on the general approach of the book.

I agree that objective facts are probably correct. 

But Whether they are writing their own prose from notes or cutting/revising GRRMs text - and clearly they did both - it's going to simply be impossible not to unintentionally color things that are not simple objective facts. Whether through word choice, choice to leave in/out a sentence, etc. 

And to be honest while I know The authors had good intentions I also know that they are massive fans and have their own opinions about the series - they aren't professional editors.  As weve been discussing here, it is Super difficult to discuss any topic where you have a horse in the race and not color the discussion unintentionally when the topic is subjective things like personality, word choice, or the exact parameters of a relationship.  The Format chosen helps to mitigate these factors, thankfully. 

Anyway I don't see why it is controversial to say that companion books written by other people are not strictly canon in the sense that the novels are.  After all the TV series was also written in part and approved in its entirety by GRRM for at least the first 4 seasons, yet many here argue it is completely non-canon (while I think it's obviously semi-canon).  They aren't completely comparable But some of the same issues are present, IMO

[Wouter]

 

As TV spoilers, maybe we should simply use tags? 

That would be nice, but I don't think it is going to be allowed. The official line is that show discussion has no place whatsoever in the book forums.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The "emotional" debate over Jojen paste is instructive. As soon as Jojen was whacked by friendly fire on the show, proponents said, "See?" Detractors disagreed, suggesting Jojen's death with no sacrifice meant Jojen paste was malarkey. 

If Peter Dinklage rides a CGI dragon forum members here will say it proves AJT. 

As TV spoilers, maybe we should simply use tags? 

That would be nice, but I don't think it is going to be allowed. The official line is that show discussion has no place whatsoever in the book forums.

I considered that and even noted that in my PM to Ran (at the time of writing that PM, I thought that TV show references were allowed as long as in spoiler boxes--but now I have heard from different people that even that might not be allowed). But a discussion where almost everything is discussed in hidden text gets irritating rather quickly. I don't find that to be a solution either. 

If they don't set up a separate sub-forum as I (and obviously others) have suggested -- I guess I will consider trying to set up a thread on the show forum that is clearly marked some like -- "A+J=T [Book Analysis Using Show Spoilers]". I don't know -- I am open to suggestions on what to do and how to present it. Going to a different forum is not an option as I really don't like the other forums very much (for different reasons for each).

[A spoon of knife and fork]

That would be nice, but I don't think it is going to be allowed. The official line is that show discussion has no place whatsoever in the book forums.

I do think this is not currently being enforced much.  Maybe they are letting it slide while they figure out what their policy will be starting in April.  There was a thread not too long ago asking whether people believed Stannis will burn Shireen and its nearly impossible not to include the show in the discussion of such a topic (even if it's really about what dos GRRM intend and hence a book topic).

If they DO decide to step up enforcement then I just hope they will Be clear and consistent about it. I just think it's going to be a Herculean effort.  Most people here will still watch the show even if it's hate watching, they can't help it. 

[purple-eyes]

I am a buyer of AJT. 

Sansa was betrothed to joff who is indeed a bastard. 

Tyrion as her husband is indeed a bastard too. 

Maybe next one, sweet robin is also bastard of LF. 

And also jon snow, maybe her final one is jon snow who is also bastard of rhaegar. Aegon may also be a bastard, a bastard son of Serra then raised by illyrio as last blackfyre. 

 

 

[Balerion's Whiskers]

While I don't deny that we can gleen clues from the show, ww have to be very careful. For example, let's say Tyrion is Tywin's trueborn son. Further, let's say he will help Brown Ben ride Viserion. And let's say Ben gives him a ride and remains under Tyrion's influence, thus satisfying a lot of the Tyrion-dragon foreshadowing. The show, which has ignored the idea that only Targaryens can ride dragons as far as I know, might just condense all of that by eliminating Brown Ben and putting Tyrion on the dragon himself. 

There IS prescient for a non-Targ to get a dragon ride.

 

Sharra Arryn had strengthened the defenses of Gulltown, moved a strong host to the Bloody Gate, and tripled the size of the garrisons in Stone, Snow, and Sky, the waycastles that guarded the approach to the Eyrie. All these defenses proved useless against Visenya Targaryen, who rode Vhagar's leathery wings above them all and landed in the Eyrie's inner courtyard. When the regent of the Vale rushed out to confront her, with a dozen guards at her back, she found Visenya with Ronnel Arryn seated on her knee, staring at the dragon, wonderstruck. "Mother, can I go flying with the lady?" the boy king asked. No threats were spoken, no angry words exchanged. The two queens smiled at one another and exchanged courtesies instead. Then Lady Sharra sent for the three crowns (her own regent's coronet, her son's small crown, and the Falcon Crown of Mountain and Vale that the Arryn kings had worn for a thousand years), and surrendered them to Queen Visenya, along with the swords of her garrison. And it was said afterward that the little king flew thrice about the summit of the Giant's Lance and landed to find himself a little lord. Thus did Visenya Targaryen bring the Vale of Arryn into her brother's realm.

[UnmaskedLurker]

 

There IS prescient for a non-Targ to get a dragon ride.

 

Yes, of course. A person who is bound to a dragon can allow someone else to join on the back of the dragon and get a ride. By using the term "dragon rider" I think some people don't realize that the term is a bit of a misnomer.

The issue is not that the person had ridden a dragon. The issue is that the person has formed a unique "bond" with a dragon -- which the readers learn in some of the companion books (and briefly referenced in DwD, I believe) that the rule is one rider to a dragon -- and the bond, once formed, can only be broken by death of the rider or dragon. If the dragon dies, the person can bond with a new dragon -- and if the person dies, the dragon can bond with a new person. Otherwise, once the bond is formed -- it is permanent.

With that information, I think it becomes clear that some sort of "blood" magic must have been used originally to enable a human being to bond with a dragon. So the logical conclusion becomes that the ability to bond with a dragon is inherited -- and accordingly (given the deaths of the other dragon lord houses), only someone with Targ blood can bond with a dragon. Ergo, if Tyrion bonds with a dragon -- he must have meaningful Targ blood (i.e., he almost certainly must be the son of Aerys).

[Balerion's Whiskers]

^^^^I agree. There is a difference in actual dragon riders and someone who was given a quick flight. The example was just for showing that someone without dragon blood could be given a ride like LM stated. (this may happen in the books too) The dragon would accept them as a passenger because the blood-bonded rider desires it. Yes, if Tyrion himself bonds with a dragon, no matter how he goes about getting the job done, he's got Targ blood and as far as I know, the only way for him to have it is A+J=T  If he doesn't bond with a dragon, he's 100% Lannister.

I definitely feel that it is a matter of blood and possibly some sort of blood magic.Has anyone else wondered at this passage from aGoT, Danerys I? Golden blood?? This is the only place that I've seen it mentioned, but early on GRRM gives us so many clues and hints. He's saying that the Targ blood is different.

For centuries the Targaryens had married brother to sister, since Aegon the Conqueror had taken his sisters to bride. The line must be kept pure, Viserys had told her a thousand times; theirs was the kingsblood, the golden blood of old Valyria, the blood of the dragon.

[UnmaskedLurker]

^^^^I agree. There is a difference in actual dragon riders and someone who was given a quick flight. The example was just for showing that someone without dragon blood could be given a ride like LM stated. (this may happen in the books too) The dragon would accept them as a passenger because the blood-bonded rider desires it. Yes, if Tyrion himself bonds with a dragon, no matter how he goes about getting the job done, he's got Targ blood and as far as I know, the only way for him to have it is A+J=T  If he doesn't bond with a dragon, he's 100% Lannister.

I definitely feel that it is a matter of blood and possibly some sort of blood magic.Has anyone else wondered at this passage from aGoT, Danerys I? Golden blood?? This is the only place that I've seen it mentioned, but early on GRRM gives us so many clues and hints. He's saying that the Targ blood is different.

In all the discussion regarding the need for Targ blood to bond with a dragon, I don't recall anyone else mentioning that particular quote -- nice find. I confirmed in search of ice and fire that the term "golden blood" only appears that one time. Of course, as with all of the clues -- it does not "prove" anything -- but we know that GRRM liked to lay down little clues to some of the important mysteries in GoT.

The arguments that I see for why a non-Targ can bond with a dragon are largely strained arguments -- the lack of any definitive information keeps the readers guessing to some extent until it becomes clarified -- most likely (I think) when Jon or Tyrion bonds with a dragon (whoever does it first - and I think it will be Tyrion).

[Balerion's Whiskers]

The arguments that I see for why a non-Targ can bond with a dragon are largely strained arguments -- the lack of any definitive information keeps the readers guessing to some extent until it becomes clarified -- most likely (I think) when Jon or Tyrion bonds with a dragon (whoever does it first - and I think it will be Tyrion).

I think it will be Tyrion too. The show is going to really give us problems here in the book threads come April and like those who have been wondering about the situation, I'm not sure how to handle it. If Tyrion gets a dragon in S6, it is going to be hard not to consider that development going forward here.

The 'golden blood' thing has struck me as odd for years. Dany does not indicate any difference in color when she bleeds, but GRRM put it there for a reason. Also, Jon and Tyrion have both bled plenty in these books and no one says a word about the color. Of course, they have outsider blood very close, so that may be the difference. Dany has some outsider blood as well, but hers is further removed and more diluted. I think that completely pure dragonlord blood is different and I suspect that there's actually blood of the dragon in their veins.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I think it will be Tyrion too. The show is going to really give us problems here in the book threads come April and like those who have been wondering about the situation, I'm not sure how to handle it. If Tyrion gets a dragon in S6, it is going to be hard not to consider that development going forward here.

The 'golden blood' thing has struck me as odd for years. Dany does not indicate any difference in color when she bleeds, but GRRM put it there for a reason. Also, Jon and Tyrion have both bled plenty in these books and no one says a word about the color. Of course, they have outsider blood very close, so that may be the difference. Dany has some outsider blood as well, but hers is further removed and more diluted. I think that completely pure dragonlord blood is different and I suspect that there's actually blood of the dragon in their veins.

What do you think of my suggestion above to start a A+J=T thread in the TV show forum, but add a label to the end of the title  such as [Book Analysis Using Show Spoilers]. Would that be a reasonable stop-gap measure? I really am looking for suggestions because if Ran and Linda don't do something to address these issues, I am not sure what will happen (and even if they do try -- it will still be a mess). And the problem is only going to get bigger in future years after the show completely ends (I think the latest info is eight seasons) and while book 6 (WoW) may have been released by then, book 7 (DoS) likely will be years away.

[Balerion's Whiskers]

What do you think of my suggestion above to start a A+J=T thread in the TV show forum, but add a label to the end of the title  such as [Book Analysis Using Show Spoilers]. Would that be a reasonable stop-gap measure?

That's the best way that I can think of at the moment.

[Lord Varys]

I agree that objective facts are probably correct. 

But Whether they are writing their own prose from notes or cutting/revising GRRMs text - and clearly they did both - it's going to simply be impossible not to unintentionally color things that are not simple objective facts. Whether through word choice, choice to leave in/out a sentence, etc. 

And to be honest while I know The authors had good intentions I also know that they are massive fans and have their own opinions about the series - they aren't professional editors.  As weve been discussing here, it is Super difficult to discuss any topic where you have a horse in the race and not color the discussion unintentionally when the topic is subjective things like personality, word choice, or the exact parameters of a relationship.  The Format chosen helps to mitigate these factors, thankfully. 

Anyway I don't see why it is controversial to say that companion books written by other people are not strictly canon in the sense that the novels are. After all the TV series was also written in part and approved in its entirety by GRRM for at least the first 4 seasons, yet many here argue it is completely non-canon (while I think it's obviously semi-canon).  They aren't completely comparable But some of the same issues are present, IMO

Well, this book really doesn't cover things were cutting stuff or rephrasing/shorten a sentence coming from George would actually add or change the color of his original words since it never actually touches events that are covered firsthand in the books. We don't get different versions of chapters from the books or different accounts on events that are depicted in detail in the series.

In that sense there is no reason to assume that Ran/Linda's work somehow tarnished or changed anything original. A lot stuff might not have found its way into the book but that's another matter entirely.

Canon in such things is determined not by our preferences but by the people making the franchise. George's position is that TWoIaF is canon, and therefore it is canon. Anything published on Westeros with his name on the cover is canon. 'Semi-canon' or 'preliminary information' is stuff he said somewhere or information from unpublished material (which is still subject to change).

The show isn't canon at all - or rather, it makes up its own canon, playing in a different world entirely, telling the stories of entirely different characters from the TV show. This is the case with any adaptation of a novel or any remake or reboot (franchise). Hell, every single new Shakespeare adaptation is a 'new canon' of sorts since it (possibly) uses a new script, new actors, new sets, and possibly even tells a new story.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I have been worrying about this very issue for a little while now. In fact, I wrote a PM to Ran on Jan. 6 recommending that a new sub-forum be created prior to the start of HBO season 6 -- the sub-forum being a place where the primary focus is talking about what is going to happen in the books, but where information from the show could be openly used in connection with this analysis. As of now, Ran has not replied to my PM.

While technically, I think such a discussion would be permitted in the TV show forum -- it really would get lost there as it is not a natural fit. That forum is for discussion of the show -- not discussion of the books using information from the show as another source of "spoilers" -- like SSMs or companion books (like WOIAF or the DoD-related books).

To be honest, although I did not get into this issue in my PM to Ran, I disagree with the decision to preclude discussions of the show on this board -- as long as the primary focus of the discussion is oriented toward the books. The show is a good source of spoilers -- just like other sources of spoilers. What makes them "off limits" when all other forms of possible spoilers are permitted. But that issue is a tangent -- as I am not proposing a change to that rule.

I agree, however, that unless the powers-that-be set up a sub-forum along the lines of my recommendation -- or some other similar accommodation, the chaos on the books forum will be out of control. Setting up such a forum will not be a panacea -- but at least it will give a clear place for people who want such a discussion to go and a clear place to direct people who violate the "no show talk" rule on the main book forum.

If anyone thinks he or she has any influence with Ran and Linda, feel free to discuss this suggestion with them. No matter what, this board is going to get a bit hairy once the new season starts and the potential spoilers for the books start to multiply. Given how long we might have to wait for WoW, I don't know how this board remains silent regarding all the possible spoilers until WoW finally gets released -- especially if it is many months between the end of season 6 and the release of book 6 (as seems almost certain to happen given the "bad news" we got from GRRM).

I 100% agree with this.

Although the show can only really give up possible glimpses of the future of the books (similar to a mirage. Is it real or is it show fan fiction), the point is that a lot of the things that happen in the show will happen in the books.  Now, story arcs might follow 100% to the books OR have the same outcome but a completely different way to get there OR be be complete fabrication... The point is it would be crazy not be able to discuss what happens and what it means.

It is really no different that following GRRM's Not a Blog, or the sample chapters that can/ and have changed before they were published. It is all small clues that inform the whole.

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

I am a buyer of AJT. 

Sansa was betrothed to joff who is indeed a bastard. 

Tyrion as her husband is indeed a bastard too. 

Maybe next one, sweet robin is also bastard of LF. 

And also jon snow, maybe her final one is jon snow who is also bastard of rhaegar.

 Aegon may also be a bastard, a bastard son of Serra then raised by illyrio as last blackfyre. 

This represents my stages of emotion while reading your post...

[UnmaskedLurker]

This represents my stages of emotion while reading your post...

You brought a big smile to my face -- very well done (and entirely consistent with my reactions). 

[Balerion's Whiskers]

What do you think of my suggestion above to start a A+J=T thread in the TV show forum, but add a label to the end of the title  such as [Book Analysis Using Show Spoilers]. Would that be a reasonable stop-gap measure? I really am looking for suggestions because if Ran and Linda don't do something to address these issues, I am not sure what will happen (and even if they do try -- it will still be a mess). And the problem is only going to get bigger in future years after the show completely ends (I think the latest info is eight seasons) and while book 6 (WoW) may have been released by then, book 7 (DoS) likely will be years away.

Ideally, a subforum needs to be created called The Winds of Winter/Dream of Spring Spoilers (books and show)

This would give folks a defined area that they could either participate in or avoid.

That way you could have an A+J=T thread....if Tyrion gets a dragon in the show...he will almost certainly get one in the books. I doubt that we'll ever get to see where whores go in the show and I think the valonqar has been cut, but Tyrion's ultimate fate is probably going to be very close to GRRM's words.

The TOJ....sigh....If R+L=J is in the show then all of the potential daddys like Robert B, Arthur Dayne, Howland Reed...heck, Ned himself threads will be rendered more crackpot than they already are, and that's another thing that the showrunners will probably keep true. If R&L were married and Jon is trueborn, that's another thing that I think they will honor to the books.

The road to get to those points will definitely be different, but I feel almost certain they will hit the main plot points truthfully. It is going to be hard, especially since we don't know what they will keep true and what they will cut/change, but the main story arcs will most likely end in the same place...or close to what George wanted them to.

[purple-eyes]

This represents my stages of emotion while reading your post...

I am glad to be able to entertain you

[Lost Melnibonean]

I just reread the bit where Tywin denies Tyrion'a claim to Casterly Rock, and I have to admit it did feel like he had his doubts about whether Tyrion was actually his son. 

[Jô Maltese]

Malfunction