(BOOK) Jon Snow Death Aftermath - Julius Caesar

[Theralion]

What happens after Jon's death? Maybe we should at the mutiny's real world inspiration, the assassination of Julius Caesar.

1. The assassins had no plans for what to do after killing Caesar, they thought everything would go back to the way it was before.

2. They thought they would be treated as heroes and gain the thanks of a grateful roman people. They were instead labeled enemies of the state and driven from the city.

3. With Caesar's death, they hoped for the restoration of the republic, instead his murder precipitated its collapse and helped bring about the empire.

On the Night's Watch side.

1. Bowen's plan doesn't appear to go beyond killing Jon.

2. It will be a slaughter. But instead of it being straight up Wildlings vs. NW, it'll be more like Wildlings/Jon's NW supporters vs. Bowen's NW supporters.

3. They think Jon's death will save the Night's Watch. Instead, his death and the battle after could very well bring about its collapse. Jon will be dead for a minute (if he is dead any longer, his body will start rotting away like Catelyn's did), Mel will use the Last Kiss to bring him back, thus fulfilling his oath to the NW by dying. This will allow him to ride south to fight the Boltons (possibly join Stannis) and claim Winterfell.

[ssls6]

I'm sure you're right in essence if not fully.   I don't think he will claim Winterfell but be instrumental is putting a Stark back in control Winterfell.  I think Jon's destiny is further south.  

[cutuphalfdead]

Agree with the OP. It's going to be Wildlings/Jon supporters vs the assassins/conspirators and it will mean the end of the NW or at least a drastic change in the NW (eg cement the alliance with the wildlings and properly define the true enemy of the NW as the others)

[Estheros]

I think he will know about Rickon and Bran being alive when he comes back and he wouldn't claim Winterfell knowing this.

But I agree,  wildlings and Jon supporter NW will join against the traitors.

[Theralion]

I think he will know about Rickon and Bran being alive when he comes back and he wouldn't claim Winterfell knowing this.

But I agree,  wildlings and Jon supporter NW will join against the traitors.

Brandon is 9 and crippled. Rickon is 5.

So I'd say Lord Protector of Winterfell and Warden of the North.

[cutuphalfdead]

Brandon is 9 and crippled. Rickon is 5.

So I'd say Lord Protector of Winterfell and Warden of the North.

But what if it also becomes known that he's been legitimized by Robb?

[Theralion]

But what if it also becomes known that he's been legitimized by Robb?

The will was made when Robb thought his little brothers were dead. Plus Jon's ASOS chapter after Stannis made his offer shows Jon feels guilty about the idea of stealing Winterfell from his trueborn siblings. Though I think he would accept the legitimization.

[The Fattest Leech]

What happens after Jon's death? Maybe we should at the mutiny's real world inspiration, the assassination of Julius Caesar.

1. The assassins had no plans for what to do after killing Caesar, they thought everything would go back to the way it was before.

2. They thought they would be treated as heroes and gain the thanks of a grateful roman people. They were instead labeled enemies of the state and driven from the city.

3. With Caesar's death, they hoped for the restoration of the republic, instead his murder precipitated its collapse and helped bring about the empire.

On the Night's Watch side.

1. Bowen's plan doesn't appear to go beyond killing Jon.

2. It will be a slaughter. But instead of it being straight up Wildlings vs. NW, it'll be more like Wildlings/Jon's NW supporters vs. Bowen's NW supporters.

3. They think Jon's death will save the Night's Watch. Instead, his death and the battle after could very well bring about its collapse. Jon will be dead for a minute (if he is dead any longer, his body will start rotting away like Catelyn's did), Mel will use the Last Kiss to bring him back, thus fulfilling his oath to the NW by dying. This will allow him to ride south to fight the Boltons (possibly join Stannis) and claim Winterfell.

I completely agree with most all of this. Great job. A few things I think could be similar but different are:

Jon could be dead for more than a minute (I am sure you did not mean a literal 60 seconds). There was a lot of talking and inspecting of the ice cells and notes on how ice preserves. Jon even sees himself "within" the ice in one of those cells as he is inspecting them and their food supplies. He could be held there and become the "ice dragon"... or not, just a thought. Oh, and it happens to be Wick who both opens the ice cells for Jon to inspect and then Wick is the first one to stab Jon in the mutiny.

I tend to think it will be Val who brings Jon back. She clearly has a thing for him, him for her but much more subtle, and she and Dalla were/are some sort of woods witch beings themselves. The names that GRRM chose for them means something along that line in some old language. Sorry, can't find it right now. Plus Ghost likes Val, she can do things beyond the wall that the NW have never been able to do. If I'm wrong, so be it. She is pretty frickin' cool anyway. His resurrection may happen at the weirwood grove where he took his vows. 

Also by dying and being rezzed back to life, oath or not, I think many will flee out of fear and those that stay will not dare to question a dude that just rose from the dead. But yes, dying will release him from his vows.

All in all, onward to Winterfell and bye-bye Bowen!

[cutuphalfdead]

The will was made when Robb thought his little brothers were dead. Plus Jon's ASOS chapter after Stannis made his offer shows Jon feels guilty about the idea of stealing Winterfell from his trueborn siblings. Though I think he would accept the legitimization.

That's fine, but if the will says "I legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark and name him my heir" does that put him ahead of Bran regardless of what Robb knew at the time? 

[Theralion]

That's fine, but if the will says "I legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark and name him my heir" does that put him ahead of Bran regardless of what Robb knew at the time? 

I think legitimized bastards still come after the trueborn siblings.

[cutuphalfdead]

I think legitimized bastards still come after the trueborn siblings.

Generally I think you're right, but is there anything stopping any king/lord from naming a new heir and putting that person at the head of the line? If that's a possibility, and the will says Jon is legitimized and is named as his heir, wouldn't that put him ahead of Bran? Robb could have simply legitimized him and not named him heir and then let him default to the position assuming Bran/Rickon are dead, but if he specifically named Jon his heir in his will I think it might put him first.

[Theralion]

 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

Generally I think you're right, but is there anything stopping any king/lord from naming a new heir and putting that person at the head of the line? If that's a possibility, and the will says Jon is legitimized and is named as his heir, wouldn't that put him ahead of Bran? Robb could have simply legitimized him and not named him heir and then let him default to the position assuming Bran/Rickon are dead, but if he specifically named Jon his heir in his will I think it might put him first.

isn't this idea kinda close to what started the Blackfyre Rebellion? So I guess putting a bastard before true born heir has happened but with not so good outcomes. 

[The Fattest Leech]

A question I have about the after-after math is where does Jon finally end up? 

I don't think he will accept Winterfell or King in the North even with a signed decree from Robb and others. It is too deep seeded in him that he is somehow now worthy, just a bastard. 

I think Stannis will end up at one of the castles  at the wall, maybe Nightfort. His wounded honor won't let him reclaim anything in the storm lands. Or Stannis does eventually die. 

So maybe Jon takes another remaining castle at the wall? Or does he take The Gift with the wildlings? Or does he live at Winterfell as a guest of honor? Or does he receive a final death? 

I feel the Nights Watch will disband because of the favorable outcome of the Battle of Ice and the stabbing mutineers will be killed by the other NW men and wildlings. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

I do wonder where Mel and the Queen's Men stand in all this. They obviously won't side with Marsh because he's catering to the Boltons and the Boltons want Selyse, Mel and Shireen (per the Pink Letter). So at least for the moment, the Queen's Men, the Free Folk and Jon's supporters will be united in their hatred for Marsh. But once they deal with Marsh (I really don't see him coming out of this alive), then what? 

With Jon down, Cotter Pyke swimming with the dead things and Denys Mallister in the Shadow Tower possibly about to be attacked by the Weeper, there's a clear power vacuum at the Watch and no one with enough gravitas to be a natural leader. 

But since the PL states Stannis is dead, then Shireen automatically becomes Queen, and Selyse Regent. So I think Selyse and/or Mel will start shouting orders, and they'll probably try to get their hands on anyone with "king's blood" to resurrect either Stannis or Jon, which includes: Gerrick Kingsblood, his daughters, Val, and the monster. And who knows what the Others will do if someone tries to burn that kid.

[cutuphalfdead]

isn't this idea kinda close to what started the Blackfyre Rebellion? So I guess putting a bastard before true born heir has happened but with not so good outcomes. 

And that's why Cat told him not to do it.

[DigUpHerBones]

the moment Jon, "dies", i am convinced a cataclysm will occur... either The Wall starts to break apart, or the comet strikes, or the volcanos start acting up again, whatever...

it will be the first domino to fall if you will in getting the remaining POV characters moving to their eventual meeting place at either God's Eye or Storm's End, IMO

[Whitering]

One thing that's a slight oversight, well, we will blame it on Jon, is that Jon never asks Mel to look for Bran, when he has real reason to suspect Bran might be alive based on his knowledge that Summer is alive.

[The Fattest Leech]

One thing that's a slight oversight, well, we will blame it on Jon, is that Jon never asks Mel to look for Bran, when he has real reason to suspect Bran might be alive based on his knowledge that Summer is alive.

In Dance, Jon 1 he thinks of the wolves and his brothers and says, "Jon pissed in darkness, filling his chamber pot as the Old Bear's raven muttered complaints. The wolf dreams had been growing stronger, and he found himself remembering them even when awake. Ghost knows that Grey Wind is dead. Robb had died at the Twins, betrayed by men he'd believed his friends, and his wolf had perished with him. Bran and Rickon had been murdered too, beheaded at the behest of Theon Greyjoy, who had once been their lord father's ward … but if dreams did not lie, their direwolves had escaped. At Queenscrown, one had come out of the darkness to save Jon's life. Summer, it had to be. His fur was grey, and Shaggydog is black. He wondered if some part of his dead brothers lived on inside their wolves."

I happen to have been just back at my computer to check this. I don't remember Jon ever thinking or hearing otherwise about his Stark brothers. Maybe I forgot. That shit happens.

[The Fattest Leech]

double