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Jon's Being Legitimized

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I don't know if this has been talked about, but would it be possible for Jon to now leave the NW and become a legitimate heir of the Stark Line?  Stannis was offering to legitimize him, and somewhere deep down, I don’t feel we have seen the last of Stannis. 

Before, he would not leave the NW because he was bound by his vows, “Until his watch ends.”  Your watch ends in your death (right?). 

Assuming he dies and is brought back (in one way or another), would his vows to the NW be fulfilled?  And do you see him responding to the letter he received from the Bolton Bastard (I refuse to say his name) without the hindrance of his NW vows?

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I don't know if this has been talked about, but would it be possible for Jon to now leave the NW and become a legitimate heir of the Stark Line?  Stannis was offering to legitimize him, and somewhere deep down, I don’t feel we have seen the last of Stannis. 

 

Before, he would not leave the NW because he was bound by his vows, “Until his watch ends.”  Your watch ends in your death (right?). 

 

Assuming he dies and is brought back (in one way or another), would his vows to the NW be fulfilled?  And do you see him responding to the letter he received from the Bolton Bastard (I refuse to say his name) without the hindrance of his NW vows?

 

Yeah, it has been talked about.  It is true & makes sense.  SPOILER ALERT:  

 

He was killed in the last book & On the show, so his watch has ended ( won't say anymore, to spoil the show & possible the up coming books but.................) He has done his duty at the watch.   All I can say is that the Watch won't last very long,  this is now 2 Lord Commanders that they have murdered. There is going to be hell to pay

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Yeah, it has been talked about.  It is true & makes sense.  SPOILER ALERT:  

 

He was killed in the last book & On the show, so his watch has ended ( won't say anymore, to spoil the show & possible the up coming books but.................) He has done his duty at the watch.   All I can say is that the Watch won't last very long,  this is now 2 Lord Commanders that they have murdered. There is going to be hell to pay

Why are you talking about this like you have information the rest of us don't have?

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I have read all the books multiple times and seen all the seasons multiple times.  I just am waiting to see where this is going and how it will get there...

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Em, because I have been accused of Spoiling, -_-

Why are you talking about this like you have information the rest of us don't have?

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I've wondered for a long time about Jon's legitimization versus Jon's true parentage.  After all this reading and debate I think it will come down to Jon's own legitimization of himself.   He has to be the one to discard the stigma of being a bastard, he has to be the one to chose to lead in the manner he sees fit  He has to accept himself for what he is which includes whether or not he is still avowed to the NW after all this.   As an observer I would say there is more or perhaps less to the NW vows than we know.  Certainly after all these thousands of years the vows have changed and should be subject to change again to meet this most current threat.  Jon needs to quit binding himself to impossible ideals and see his land and potential legacy to liberation from all the threats it faces politically and magically.  

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I'm inclined to say that if the NW carries out a funeral where the say the words "and now his watch has ended" that he will indeed be free of his vows.  As to his legitimization, that would still make him a Targ rather than a Stark in a technical sense, but I guess that depends on what comes to light.

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I'm inclined to say that if the NW carries out a funeral where the say the words "and now his watch has ended" that he will indeed be free of his vows.  As to his legitimization, that would still make him a Targ rather than a Stark in a technical sense, but I guess that depends on what comes to light.

That's a great point in being released from the vow by the NW itself.  

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I'm inclined to say that if the NW carries out a funeral where the say the words "and now his watch has ended" that he will indeed be free of his vows.  As to his legitimization, that would still make him a Targ rather than a Stark in a technical sense, but I guess that depends on what comes to light.

I never thought about it like that. Verbal confirmation that he's released from his vows. That's interesting.

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I don't believe you can legitimize someone who isn't a bastard (I don't think a child out of wedlock is considered a "bastard" by Westerosi law, but I may be wrong?)  Once his true parentage comes out, he is technically heir to the Targaryen Dynasty (as, being Rhaegars son, makes him claim stronger then Danys).

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Jon after so much time dealing with what it means to be a Snow, the personal journey culminating in accepting his place as LC and rejecting Winterfell, I think it would be "cheap" to release him from his vows and go right back to wanting to be a noble or a king.

Even after his "death"/"resurrection" would it be acceptable from his standpoint to consider himself released from his vows? For him it will likely be the same as being in a coma (or warged in Ghost) so why would he believe he was freed from his vows, he did not truly die.

I don't believe you can legitimize someone who isn't a bastard (I don't think a child out of wedlock is considered a "bastard" by Westerosi law, but I may be wrong?)  Once his true parentage comes out, he is technically heir to the Targaryen Dynasty (as, being Rhaegars son, makes him claim stronger then Danys).

Being born out of wedlock makes you a bastard, as you cans see with Aegon IV great bastards, Noble on both sides and still bastards (though all legitimized in his deathbed leading to the BF rebellions). Thus Jon's would have no claim, if Rhaegar married Lyanna then he would have a claim, weaker than fAegons, it would be disputed however if the marriage would be valid as Elia was still alive and the Faith accepts only one wife (Aegon I and Maegor excluded).

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Regardless of who his parents are, if Robb named his as his heir, the only thing that was stopping him from claiming Winterfell was his dedication to his NW vows.  So even if he the heir to the Targ dynasty, He is also now heir to the Stark dynasty.  So... if he is no longer bond to the NW... He is the heir of both fire and ice... ( I think...)

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Regardless of who his parents are, if Robb named his as his heir, the only thing that was stopping him from claiming Winterfell was his dedication to his NW vows.  So even if he the heir to the Targ dynasty, He is also now heir to the Stark dynasty.  So... if he is no longer bond to the NW... He is the heir of both fire and ice... ( I think...)

This will probably be what ends up happening.  There is a reason why GRRM added that into the story (Jon being named heir), so it will serve a purpose somewhere.  With Jon's obsession with saving (f)Arya and taking back Winterfell...it almost seems appropriate that when he returns, that will be his main goal (with the help of Theon, but that's another discussion).

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I'm inclined to say that if the NW carries out a funeral where the say the words "and now his watch has ended" that he will indeed be free of his vows.  As to his legitimization, that would still make him a Targ rather than a Stark in a technical sense, but I guess that depends on what comes to light.

Well, the show is spoiling the books & I don't know if anyone has seen anything from the filming of Season 6,???   And Yes, his watch has ended.  Don't know if they carried out the Funeral scene or what.  They did after all murder their Lord Commander,  now this makes the last 2 LC murdered by his own men.  The Watch, it self will end(IMO).   In the Book, the free folk are there & witness his murder,  don't think for a second that they don't have Jon's back & will go after the watch.  Not to mention that the watch & the Queens guard are out numbered.   As for the show, well it was done in the dark.   All the same he does DIE & his watch has ended, now he can go on & do what needs to get done. Have the Freek Folk follow rally to him, and free  Winterfell ,& gather a massive arm to take on the threat from beyond the wall.  IMO, anywasy.

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I don't recall any mention of Robb's will or Jon's potential legitimization on the show, but it's been a while too.   The books however, are either dangling the legitimization carrot or the whole thing is a huge red herring.   You've got all those suspicions about the will and then Stannis comes along and offers it all up on a silver platter.   Add to that all the blatant treachery Jon receives from his NW brothers...something's up, but I'm not 100% sure it's the legitimization.   I rather like the prospect of HR gathering all this information and having to determine what to do with it...what to publicize, what to make sure the GNC knows and what to make sure the BWB knows.   I still think Jon is the most important factor in all of it.   He's got to determine which role he can fulfill.  As an heir to the Targ dynasty he would have absolutely no clue what to do, but as heir to Winterfell he would have a marked advantage.  Certainly in order for Jon to even begin to deal with his Targ baggage he will have to be confronted with TPTWP prophesy and a couple of hugely important pacts.  I'm not at all sure that Jon would accept a role as heir to Winterfell so long as Sansa lives.    Ultimately he will have to learn that Arya isn't even in Westeros, much less married to Bolton.   But he may take an active role in securing Winterfell in the interim.   With the eminent reappearance of GreatJon Umber,the contents of Robb's will should come to light in Winds.   Jon Snow has bigger fish to fry than the politics of either the NW or Winterfell.    For all we know Robb's will does name Jon his heir and all that entails then frickin' Little Finger comes along to besmirch this honor & title with the truth about Jon's parents in a power grab for the North.   The Stark in Winterfell is a powerful political position.   I loathe the idea of Jon becoming entrenched in all this political play when he so clearly has important things to do.

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I have a feeling that Glover, Davos are bringing Rickon, Osha and Shaggy Dog to Winterfell by River and will be pivotal in the Battle in the Ice and for Winterfell, Rickon, if he survives will get Winterfell until or unless Bran shows up to take his rightful claim. No matter what Robb's will says, Jon cannot take Winterfell and the North from Bran or Rickon or technically even Arya if she shows up and is proven. Sansa was the only one specifically written out of the will as she was known to be alive but married to the Imp. Jon though, can take the Stark name and legitimization though.

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I doubt Jon will ever become legitimatized , but if he did he would stay as a Snow , never a Targaryen. Though he respects Aemon and he idolized the Young Dragon Daeron , his heart and soul is that of a Stark . Now he may marry Dany and become a Targ .

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This is the 348659th thread about this. It's being much debated. Some think that being dead counts, some don't. We'll have to wait to see what do the people in the NW think.

But the whole "verbal confirmation" detail is VERY interesting. It can actually mean something.

On 11/1/2016 at 8:09 AM, SevasTra82 said:

(I don't think a child out of wedlock is considered a "bastard" by Westerosi law, but I may be wrong?) 

That is precisely the definition of a bastard.

I'm seriously really interested in knowing what was your interpretation of the whole story without knowing that.

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On 1/12/2016 at 10:32 PM, A Ghost of Someone said:

I have a feeling that Glover, Davos are bringing Rickon, Osha and Shaggy Dog to Winterfell by River and will be pivotal in the Battle in the Ice and for Winterfell, Rickon, if he survives will get Winterfell until or unless Bran shows up to take his rightful claim. No matter what Robb's will says, Jon cannot take Winterfell and the North from Bran or Rickon or technically even Arya if she shows up and is proven. Sansa was the only one specifically written out of the will as she was known to be alive but married to the Imp. Jon though, can take the Stark name and legitimization though.

Eh ... Robb legitimizing Jon, and only legitimizing Jon, puts Jon behind Bran and Rickon (although they were presumed dead, and still are by most). The question of in what order do Acknowledged and Legitimized Male and Trueborn Female have in relation to one another is a big one, and is probably usually situational; that said, an Acknowledged and Legitimized Male who is present has a massively better claim than a Trueborn Female whose whereabouts are unknown. In other words, a legitimized male is definitely behind a trueborn male, but a legitimized male may or may not be behind a trueborn female, and a legitimized female is behind everybody else. Not counting collateral lines of descent, of course.

But that's not all Robb is thought to have done - Robb did two things with respect to Jon and Jon's place in the succession, one, Robb legitimized Jon, and two, Robb specifically named Jon as his heir in the absence of heirs of his body (Robb's children). Robb specifically naming Jon as his heir jumps Jon right over Arya, Rickon, and Bran in the succession.
 

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