From Death to Dawn #3: Sansa, Lyanna, Jaime, Rhaegar, and the Search for One True Knight

[Sly Wren]

Think about the position team fAegon  is in. They seek legitimacy above all else. They NEED people to believe his is Rhaegar's son, whether he is or not. A knight of House Dayne wielding Dawn in his KG would bring a LOT of gravitas. They would jump at the chance, I have to think. 

A fair point. JonCon thinks about how he must not fail his "silver prince's" son. It's practically his religion at this point.

And as for the point on faith: in Game, Jorah tells Dany that Rhaegar had few knights with him at the Trident--so when he fell, they fled. He's saying it to give Dany courage--that the Westerosi "rabble" would flee in the face of Dothraki screamers.

But it also raises the importance of faith in the cause. A point Martin raises a lot. So, yeah--I could see JonCon getting fooled into thinking Darkstar might be worth it.

But I think he'll pay for it if he does. . . Darkstar, the un-Arthur, taking down Rhaegar's "son's" cause. . . it would be a splendid bit of irony.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

A fair point. JonCon thinks about how he must not fail his "silver prince's" son. It's practically his religion at this point.

And as for the point on faith: in Game, Jorah tells Dany that Rhaegar had few knights with him at the Trident--so when he fell, they fled. He's saying it to give Dany courage--that the Westerosi "rabble" would flee in the face of Dothraki screamers.

But it also raises the importance of faith in the cause. A point Martin raises a lot. So, yeah--I could see JonCon getting fooled into thinking Darkstar might be worth it.

But I think he'll pay for it if he does. . . Darkstar, the un-Arthur, taking down Rhaegar's "son's" cause. . . it would be a splendid bit of irony.

The problem with Darkstar on Team fAegon is Arianne. Hard to see the two of them playing nice at this point, and Arianne/House Martell bring a much stronger practical advantage to the table. 

[LmL]

A fair point. JonCon thinks about how he must not fail his "silver prince's" son. It's practically his religion at this point.

And as for the point on faith: in Game, Jorah tells Dany that Rhaegar had few knights with him at the Trident--so when he fell, they fled. He's saying it to give Dany courage--that the Westerosi "rabble" would flee in the face of Dothraki screamers.

But it also raises the importance of faith in the cause. A point Martin raises a lot. So, yeah--I could see JonCon getting fooled into thinking Darkstar might be worth it.

But I think he'll pay for it if he does. . . Darkstar, the un-Arthur, taking down Rhaegar's "son's" cause. . . it would be a splendid bit of irony.

There's no doubt it's not going to go well. :)

[LmL]

The problem with Darkstar on Team fAegon is Arianne. Hard to see the two of them playing nice at this point, and Arianne/House Martell bring a much stronger practical advantage to the table. 

Certainly it's going to be an issue. But the king calls the shots, and to fAegon and JonCon, both the Martells and Darkstar with Dawn offer advantages. Arianne and DStar might just have to tolerate each other. Perhaps that will be part of how it blows up with Darkstar. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Certainly it's going to be an issue. But the king calls the shots, and to fAegon and JonCon, both the Martells and Darkstar with Dawn offer advantages. Arianne and DStar might just have to tolerate each other. Perhaps that will be part of how it blows up with Darkstar. 

Meh. King likes to think he calls the shots. How many shots did Robert call? Aerys? Joff/Cercei? And they were better established than fAegon. Power is a negotiation. He needs Dorne and Martells are not going to negotiate with Darkstar. 

Anyway, I think Daynes & Yronwoods will side with Dany. Dance will split Dorne as well as the rest of the kingdom. 

I don't foresee any Darkstar/fAegon bromance, sorry. :-)

[Sly Wren]

There's no doubt it's not going to go well.

Amen.

Huh--can one even fight the Long Night with one who is "of the night?" 

Meh. King likes to think he calls the shots. How many shots did Robert call? Aerys? Joff/Cercei? And they were better established than fAegon. Power is a negotiation. He needs Dorne and Martells are not going to negotiate with Darkstar.

Might depend on how much JonCon thinks can use both Doran and (hypothetically) Darkstar.

Anyway, I think Daynes & Yronwoods will side with Dany. Dance will split Dorne as well as the rest of the kingdom.

Maybe. But the World Book made a reasonable fuss about the Ironwoods and Fowlers and Stony Dornish in general as being proud. Giving themselves grandiose names (Kings of Stone and Sky). Valuing their wealth and independence. There's even that passage about their being rather like the mountain clans in the Vale--and we've seen how they want their independence.

The idea of another Targ invasion might not sit well. They may just want their independence. . . Or to follow someone like them (as the mountain clans in the north are loyal to the Ned, etc.). 

As for the Daynes--they've been in Westeros from the beginning. Am assuming they may have some idea of what "Winter is Coming" means. And they have a tradition of protecting vs. just ruling. Would they really want to engage with a dragon queen arriving onshore with a Dothraki horde? The VERY little we've seen of the Daynes (Edric, stories of Arthur). . . I'm not sure they would. . . Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend. But Rhaegar (far as we know) never engaged a horde.

[LmL]

Meh. King likes to think he calls the shots. How many shots did Robert call? Aerys? Joff/Cercei? And they were better established than fAegon. Power is a negotiation. He needs Dorne and Martells are not going to negotiate with Darkstar. 

Anyway, I think Daynes & Yronwoods will side with Dany. Dance will split Dorne as well as the rest of the kingdom. 

I don't foresee any Darkstar/fAegon bromance, sorry. :-)

My take on Doran is that he is cynical enough to use someone like Darkstar or to tolerate fAegon's desire to have him as a KG if he thinks its best for Dorne. I think he's very pragmatic, so whatever works for Dorne will carry the day - his personal feelings aren't that important, and certainly he would have no problem telling Arianne to deal with it. 

Now, don't get me wrong, it's just a reasoned speculation, it's not something I am seeing specific foreshadowing of. For that matter, he would have the same appeal to Daenerys that he would to fAegon. What does Dany care if he tried to kill a Lannister princess? If she even gets that story? She might just find him in Oldtown when she shows up (my guess as to where she will and, but again, speculation), and see a Dayne with Dawn, Arthur's cousin. She'd probably jump at the chance - and he's as beautiful as a dragonlord, as Arianne says. 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

Might depend on how much JonCon thinks can use both Doran and (hypothetically) Darkstar.

From JonCon's point of view, Doran/Arianne and the Martells are so much more important than solo Darkstar running around with a stolen sword that it's hardly even worth talking about. Martells basically bring the might of Dorne. Darkstar brings a shiny old sword, medium sword skills, and a lot of enemies. If Illyrio resurfaces he would probably push for the inclusion of whoever is wielding Dawn--because I think Illyrio is of a quite mystical bent at this point--but JonCon and fAegon, not to mention the Golden Company, seem more practically minded, or at least specifically Targaryen-minded. Whatever mystical sentimental motivation they have extends to Targs and Blackfyres, not Dawnian swords. I really can't imagine anyone on Team fAegon caring about Dawn nearly enough to outweigh the military and political advantage of House Martell. It would be a nice symbol, sure, but they're not making major sacrifices to get it since from their POV it barely has anything to do with them.

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Maybe. But the World Book made a reasonable fuss about the Ironwoods and Fowlers and Stony Dornish in general as being proud. Giving themselves grandiose names (Kings of Stone and Sky). Valuing their wealth and independence. There's even that passage about their being rather like the mountain clans in the Vale--and we've seen how they want their independence.

The idea of another Targ invasion might not sit well. They may just want their independence. . . Or to follow someone like them (as the mountain clans in the north are loyal to the Ned, etc.). 

That's quite possible. Main reason I think Yronwoods will side with Dany is that I think Archibald Yronwood will stay on her side going forward.

"..when the mountains blow in the wind like leaves..." - I think this refers to Arch Yronwood. He certainly counts as a mountain of a man ("six-and-a-half-feet tall, broad of shoulder, huge of belly, with legs like tree trunks, hands the size of hams, and no neck") and for all intents and purposes he is representing the Yronwoods and more generally the Stony Dornish. He blows in the wind like leaves in two ways--traveling with the Windblown, and his loyalties have been going back and forth. However at the end of Dance he is the one of Quentin's companions who does not blame Dany or the dragons for Quent's fate. He agrees to take Barristan's message to bribe the Tattered Prince to Dany's side. So it seems he has blown over and landed on Team Dany. For this to be significant enough to merit a prophecy then it surely must have large repercussions.

So I can easily see Dorne splitting like this: Martell's declare for fAegon because he gets there first and makes a good impression, plus it's convenient to set up an alliance through marriage w/ Arianne. I foresee the two of them getting along well enough to be going on with, if not having real feelings for each other. Besides, Arianne is already forming a negative view of Dany and this will likely be exacerbated with the news of Quentin's rejection and death.

Meanwhile the Yronwoods will hear from Ser Arch that Dany is blameless for Quent's death, and will likely hear other good things about Team Dany. And by this point Arch himself will be pretty firmly in the Dany camp; Yronwoods and Stoney Dornish will likely follow suite.

Daynes will also be Team Dany because, if my twins@Starfall theory is correct, they know for a dead fact that Dany is legitimate and know nothing of the sort about fAegon.

(This scenario would hopefully also shut up all the people calling Quentin's arc "pointless"--if his death is the catalyst that splits all of Dorne. Also could work with @LmL's comet imagery: "son's son" i.e. comet--"rises in the west and sets in the east"--flies through the sky--with the "impact" of the news splitting Dorne in two.)

14 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

As for the Daynes--they've been in Westeros from the beginning. Am assuming they may have some idea of what "Winter is Coming" means. And they have a tradition of protecting vs. just ruling. Would they really want to engage with a dragon queen arriving onshore with a Dothraki horde? The VERY little we've seen of the Daynes (Edric, stories of Arthur). . . I'm not sure they would. . . Arthur was Rhaegar's best friend. But Rhaegar (far as we know) never engaged a horde.

You seem very convinced that Dothraki = bad, and that Dany embracing the Dothraki bodes poorly for her development. I don't think this is the case. Dothraki have caused a lot of violence and suffering, but their basic mission statement (as per the World Book) is to honor & protect mother earth, getting rid of permanent buildings and "civilization" because it has a bad impact on the earth. This seems like something the right kind of leader--the Khaleesi of Khals?--could turn into a big positive. Dothraki are also *strongly* opposed to blood magic, which seems like a good sign.

I'm not saying Dany will have all the Dothraki singing kumbaya, but I do think that if they see her as a prophesied leader (and she learns some things from the Dosh Khaleen) she could potentially turn them in a more positive and less rapey direction.

13 hours ago, LmL said:

My take on Doran is that he is cynical enough to use someone like Darkstar or to tolerate fAegon's desire to have him as a KG if he thinks its best for Dorne. I think he's very pragmatic, so whatever works for Dorne will carry the day - his personal feelings aren't that important, and certainly he would have no problem telling Arianne to deal with it. 

Sure...if Doran is still the one in charge. To me he seems likely not to live much longer. He is sort of passing the torch of his plans to Arianne and the Sand Snakes, which seems to telegraph that his end is nigh.

 

13 hours ago, LmL said:

Now, don't get me wrong, it's just a reasoned speculation, it's not something I am seeing specific foreshadowing of. For that matter, he would have the same appeal to Daenerys that he would to fAegon. What does Dany care if he tried to kill a Lannister princess? If she even gets that story? She might just find him in Oldtown when she shows up (my guess as to where she will and, but again, speculation), and see a Dayne with Dawn, Arthur's cousin. She'd probably jump at the chance - and he's as beautiful as a dragonlord, as Arianne says. 

Yeah...between Dany and fAegon, to me Dany seems more likely to place more value on Dawn, and thus whoever has Dawn. Her story has more connections to Dawnia, whereas fAegon's story is more focused on Targ/Blackfyre family history.

And we still don't know quite what Darkstar's deal is. There's a not-too-crazy theory that he was present at ToJ as a squire. If so, he would know if there was a baby girl involved--so he may actually be more interested in Dany than fAegon. Heck, his motive for attacking Myrcella might even be that he didn't want Dorne getting caught up with a Lannister queen before Dany shows up. IDK.

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

-double post-

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

From JonCon's point of view, Doran/Arianne and the Martells are so much more important than solo Darkstar running around with a stolen sword that it's hardly even worth talking about. Martells basically bring the might of Dorne. Darkstar brings a shiny old sword, medium sword skills, and a lot of enemies. If Illyrio resurfaces he would probably push for the inclusion of whoever is wielding Dawn--because I think Illyrio is of a quite mystical bent at this point--but JonCon and fAegon, not to mention the Golden Company, seem more practically minded, or at least specifically Targaryen-minded. Whatever mystical sentimental motivation they have extends to Targs and Blackfyres, not Dawnian swords. I really can't imagine anyone on Team fAegon caring about Dawn nearly enough to outweigh the military and political advantage of House Martell. It would be a nice symbol, sure, but they're not making major sacrifices to get it since from their POV it barely has anything to do with them.

I agree re: the sword. I suspect that the real value of that sword will come in the Battle for the Dawn. 

But JonCon's also a bit sentimental ("my silver prince." "a fortified campsite even Arthur Dayne would approve of"). And, given that the Daynes award the sword only to the worthy, if Darkstar lied (can't see why he'd tell the truth on this) and said that Dawn was bestowed on him, I could see JonCon wanting that.

As you say, the Golden Company and others are unlikely to be swayed even by fabulous white blades. That clash could be what breaks things up.

Which is all completely hypothetical. In the spirit of the OP, I've been trying to think of an echo/parallel. Best I can come up with is Euron and that horn. Or Mel and the fake Lightbringer. Those work for a while . . . but fall apart.

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That's quite possible. Main reason I think Yronwoods will side with Dany is that I think Archibald Yronwood will stay on her side going forward.

"..when the mountains blow in the wind like leaves..." - I think this refers to Arch Yronwood. He certainly counts as a mountain of a man ("six-and-a-half-feet tall, broad of shoulder, huge of belly, with legs like tree trunks, hands the size of hams, and no neck") and for all intents and purposes he is representing the Yronwoods and more generally the Stony Dornish. He blows in the wind like leaves in two ways--traveling with the Windblown, and his loyalties have been going back and forth. However at the end of Dance he is the one of Quentin's companions who does not blame Dany or the dragons for Quent's fate. He agrees to take Barristan's message to bribe the Tattered Prince to Dany's side. So it seems he has blown over and landed on Team Dany. For this to be significant enough to merit a prophecy then it surely must have large repercussions.

I had not thought of this. . . hmmm. I tend to think of Mirri's statement as more of a taunt than a prophecy. A "there's nothing you can do" statement--"the Stallion that Mounts the World is no more."

I'm struggling to see the "mountains blow like leaves" fitting the bolded above. Though I agree Arch could have influence. . . need to mull on this a bit.

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So I can easily see Dorne splitting like this: Martell's declare for fAegon because he gets there first and makes a good impression, plus it's convenient to set up an alliance through marriage w/ Arianne. I foresee the two of them getting along well enough to be going on with, if not having real feelings for each other. Besides, Arianne is already forming a negative view of Dany and this will likely be exacerbated with the news of Quentin's rejection and death.

Meanwhile the Yronwoods will hear from Ser Arch that Dany is blameless for Quent's death, and will likely hear other good things about Team Dany. And by this point Arch himself will be pretty firmly in the Dany camp; Yronwoods and Stoney Dornish will likely follow suite.

Maybe. . .  but, back to "echoes"--the Dornish Plan to marry Dany and reassert themselves--reminds me at times of the mess with the Durrandons and Aegon the Conqueror. They circle around each other. Each trying to engage the other to advantage. . . and it all goes to hell. Throw in young Aegon and it still seems like a "best laid schemes" moment--will go oft awry. Like so many other best laid schemes in these novels. 

Plus, if Dany has that massive khalassar at her back, would she be wanting to sit down and make deals at the start? Making deals in Meereen has NOT worked out for her. She did not like that way of ruling. 

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Daynes will also be Team Dany because, if my twins@Starfall theory is correct, they know for a dead fact that Dany is legitimate and know nothing of the sort about fAegon.

I agree there's a reasonable chance the Daynes know something re: Dany. And Jon, for that matter--so far, they seem very Stark friendly. Which could be interesting. Still, engaging in a war as winter is setting in. . . in a family that, given the little we know of them, has a tradition of "protection," of honoring the "worthy knight"--it's VERY little to go on, but I have trouble seeing that mindset being interested in a war.

Arthur focused on getting the smallfolk what they needed when defeating the Kingswood brotherhood. Jaime follows suit (in his own way). Jon, too, is focused on taking care of people and dealing with the real threat. He thinks all of the politics of the south are stupid ("bloody southron fools").

One way or another, we need more info on the Daynes.

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(This scenario would hopefully also shut up all the people calling Quentin's arc "pointless"--if his death is the catalyst that splits all of Dorne. Also could work with @LmL's comet imagery: "son's son" i.e. comet--"rises in the west and sets in the east"--flies through the sky--with the "impact" of the news splitting Dorne in two.)

I completely agree that something's up with Dorne and that Quentyn is a key part of it. But is Quentyn enough to split Dorne? And would people care whether or not Dany was guilty if she's riding the dragon and coming with Dothraki? She may just be seen as a threat per se.  

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You seem very convinced that Dothraki = bad, and that Dany embracing the Dothraki bodes poorly for her development. I don't think this is the case. Dothraki have caused a lot of violence and suffering, but their basic mission statement (as per the World Book) is to honor & protect mother earth, getting rid of permanent buildings and "civilization" because it has a bad impact on the earth. This seems like something the right kind of leader--the Khaleesi of Khals?--could turn into a big positive. Dothraki are also *strongly* opposed to blood magic, which seems like a good sign.

I'm not saying Dany will have all the Dothraki singing kumbaya, but I do think that if they see her as a prophesied leader (and she learns some things from the Dosh Khaleen) she could potentially turn them in a more positive and less rapey direction.

1. Oh, no--sorry. Not "Dothraki=bad." But--it's back to the idea of "it's all in where you're standing." The bolded--that's really not all that compatible with, well, Westeros. Except, perhaps, for the Ironborn. Westeros is essentially the same culture and lands the Dothraki traditionally raid. Making all that copacetic--Dany's rather struggled to rule Meereen with the highly disciplined Unsullied. The Dothraki are a whole other animal. 

2. I agree that Dany on Drogon will have a massive impact. Even without the prophecy. But Dany had all three dragons in Meereen--and the Meereenese still stayed themselves. Attacking with the Dothraki--that will be easy. Governing afterwards? She'll be trying to govern a conquered land with an "army" that just wants to grab stuff and women and head back to Vaes Dothrak. Changing mindsets, so far, has not been Dany's strong suit. Prophecy or not, hordes are not civilized governing bodies. 

3. I will confess that part of my fear re: Dany is tied to the blood sacrifice to get the dragons as well as the fact that the Targs don't really seem to belong in Westeros. They messed with the Wall. They ruled with varying levels of success. But they don't seem to understand that basic problem--Winter and the Others. Dany has good intentions--and no basic understanding of what's coming.

Plus, when Dany opened Rhaegar's visor and saw herself. . . that just seems like doom to me. Rhaegar died in that armor. Before her, he was the Last Dragon. Now she's the Last Dragon. Embracing dragon ways with both arms. Just really seems like a recipe for disaster, with a potentially prophetic dream to boot.  

So, all of that is likely coloring my judgment. But. . . it is worth considering.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

-snip-

Plus, when Dany opened Rhaegar's visor and saw herself. . . that just seems like doom to me. Rhaegar died in that armor. Before her, he was the Last Dragon. Now she's the Last Dragon. Embracing dragon ways with both arms. Just really seems like a recipe for disaster, with a potentially prophetic dream to boot.  

So, all of that is likely coloring my judgment. But. . . it is worth considering.

I have a slightly different interpretation of the Dany/Rhaegar armor dream.

It's part of her fever dream which I believe contains elements of her own life as well as elements of the Amethyst Empress's life.

Dany dreams of her back ripping open and growing dragon wings, meaning: 1) Dany is awakening dragons and about to hatch them, embracing her dragon blood, and 2) the Amethyst Empress is stabbed in the back, wargs into her dragon as she dies.

Dany dreams of flying to Westeros and "arms to keep her warm" meaning: 1) Dany has always associated Westeros with home, and 2) AE's soul in her dragon's body is flying to Westeros where she has a loved one (the exiled sapphire knight)

Dany sees a figure in black armor, when the visor opens the face is her own 1) Dany is inheriting Rhaegar's mantle as the Last Dragon and 2) the AE's loved one has her face, i.e. is her twin, the sapphire knight.

So by that interpretation the black armored figure is not only Rhaegar but also the sapphire/ice magic knight (maiden and knight--woohoo, I'm almost back on topic!) and the black armor, I believe, thus intersects with Jon's dream of wearing black ice armor.

In Jon's dream he wears black ice armor and carries a flaming sword.

In Dany's dream she becomes a fiery dragon and sees her own face in a suit of black (ice) armor.

On one level, the level Dany understands at the time, she metaphorically sees herself in Rhaegar. But on another level both Dany and Jon are dreaming of themselves as figures of both ice and fire. And in a way it frames both of them as "last dragon" figures.

It could also foreshadow Dany and Jon becoming ill fated lovers--I think Dany's vision of the blue rose in the wall of ice also foreshadows this. Not just Jon but a star-crossed romance with Jon. The maid and the knight, echoing through time, never quite growing old together for whatever reason.

So I agree the dream carries foreshadowing of doom, but in a "Dany's true love is romantically doomed" way rather than a "Dany is doomed to wreck the world" way.

[Isobel Harper]

3 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

From JonCon's point of view, Doran/Arianne and the Martells are so much more important than solo Darkstar running around with a stolen sword that it's hardly even worth talking about. Martells basically bring the might of Dorne. Darkstar brings a shiny old sword, medium sword skills, and a lot of enemies. If Illyrio resurfaces he would probably push for the inclusion of whoever is wielding Dawn--because I think Illyrio is of a quite mystical bent at this point--but JonCon and fAegon, not to mention the Golden Company, seem more practically minded, or at least specifically Targaryen-minded. Whatever mystical sentimental motivation they have extends to Targs and Blackfyres, not Dawnian swords. I really can't imagine anyone on Team fAegon caring about Dawn nearly enough to outweigh the military and political advantage of House Martell. It would be a nice symbol, sure, but they're not making major sacrifices to get it since from their POV it barely has anything to do with them.

That's quite possible. Main reason I think Yronwoods will side with Dany is that I think Archibald Yronwood will stay on her side going forward.

"..when the mountains blow in the wind like leaves..." - I think this refers to Arch Yronwood. He certainly counts as a mountain of a man ("six-and-a-half-feet tall, broad of shoulder, huge of belly, with legs like tree trunks, hands the size of hams, and no neck") and for all intents and purposes he is representing the Yronwoods and more generally the Stony Dornish. He blows in the wind like leaves in two ways--traveling with the Windblown, and his loyalties have been going back and forth. However at the end of Dance he is the one of Quentin's companions who does not blame Dany or the dragons for Quent's fate. He agrees to take Barristan's message to bribe the Tattered Prince to Dany's side. So it seems he has blown over and landed on Team Dany. For this to be significant enough to merit a prophecy then it surely must have large repercussions.

So I can easily see Dorne splitting like this: Martell's declare for fAegon because he gets there first and makes a good impression, plus it's convenient to set up an alliance through marriage w/ Arianne. I foresee the two of them getting along well enough to be going on with, if not having real feelings for each other. Besides, Arianne is already forming a negative view of Dany and this will likely be exacerbated with the news of Quentin's rejection and death.

Meanwhile the Yronwoods will hear from Ser Arch that Dany is blameless for Quent's death, and will likely hear other good things about Team Dany. And by this point Arch himself will be pretty firmly in the Dany camp; Yronwoods and Stoney Dornish will likely follow suite.

Daynes will also be Team Dany because, if my twins@Starfall theory is correct, they know for a dead fact that Dany is legitimate and know nothing of the sort about fAegon.

(This scenario would hopefully also shut up all the people calling Quentin's arc "pointless"--if his death is the catalyst that splits all of Dorne. Also could work with @LmL's comet imagery: "son's son" i.e. comet--"rises in the west and sets in the east"--flies through the sky--with the "impact" of the news splitting Dorne in two.)

You seem very convinced that Dothraki = bad, and that Dany embracing the Dothraki bodes poorly for her development. I don't think this is the case. Dothraki have caused a lot of violence and suffering, but their basic mission statement (as per the World Book) is to honor & protect mother earth, getting rid of permanent buildings and "civilization" because it has a bad impact on the earth. This seems like something the right kind of leader--the Khaleesi of Khals?--could turn into a big positive. Dothraki are also *strongly* opposed to blood magic, which seems like a good sign.

I'm not saying Dany will have all the Dothraki singing kumbaya, but I do think that if they see her as a prophesied leader (and she learns some things from the Dosh Khaleen) she could potentially turn them in a more positive and less rapey direction.

Sure...if Doran is still the one in charge. To me he seems likely not to live much longer. He is sort of passing the torch of his plans to Arianne and the Sand Snakes, which seems to telegraph that his end is nigh.

 

Yeah...between Dany and fAegon, to me Dany seems more likely to place more value on Dawn, and thus whoever has Dawn. Her story has more connections to Dawnia, whereas fAegon's story is more focused on Targ/Blackfyre family history.

And we still don't know quite what Darkstar's deal is. There's a not-too-crazy theory that he was present at ToJ as a squire. If so, he would know if there was a baby girl involved--so he may actually be more interested in Dany than fAegon. Heck, his motive for attacking Myrcella might even be that he didn't want Dorne getting caught up with a Lannister queen before Dany shows up. IDK.

 

I have a different prediction of how Dorne will (or rather will not) side with Aegon, although I agree that Dorne will be divided on who sides with whom.

At first, second- and third-hand accounts will arrive in Dorne reporting Quentyn's death.  Reports will be muddled, but all news will report the same thing: Quentyn died by a dragon.  Doran, ever cautious, will wait for first-hand accounts and be even more cautious about siding with any Targaryen, i.e. Aegon at that time.  (He will be cautious to side with Aegon for additional reasons as well, although I don't wish to get too off-topic.)  House Yronwood (former Blackfyre sympathizer) who was very close to Quentyn will rebel and side with Aegon, since the aforementioned news will paint Daenerys in a very negative light.  Many other Dornish houses will be eager to jump on the bandwagon, everyone sharing (at the least) anti-Lannister sentiments.

With House Yronwood as the figurehead of this rebellion against their lord, it will appear that Aegon is a Blackfyre.  I also predict that Aurane Waters will side with Aegon, and perhaps has already begun fighting on his side.

WoW spoiler chapter:

Valena Toland reports bodies washing up on the Dornish shore due to a pirate named "Lord of the Waters."  I theorize that Aurane along with the lost GC ships have been at war with (Myrish?  Lyseni?  Tyroshi?) ships who were trailing Aegon trying to stop him from arriving in Westeros.

 

Daeron II didn't have any Velaryon heritage since Alyssa Velaryon, but Daemon Blackfyre's mother's mother was a Velaryon.  When Westeros realizes that The Bastard of Driftmark has sided with Aegon, but the legitimate Velaryon line has not (as they are currently with Stannis), they will see reaffirmation that this boy is feigned.

[sweetsunray]

Haven't been able to read the whole thread so far, but quickly wanted to point something out about Sandor for sure having had the 'true knight' ideal as a child. What item did he risk his brother's wrath for? A toy. What was the toy? A wooden knight.

[Sly Wren]

5 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I have a slightly different interpretation of the Dany/Rhaegar armor dream.

It's part of her fever dream which I believe contains elements of her own life as well as elements of the Amethyst Empress's life.

Dany dreams of her back ripping open and growing dragon wings, meaning: 1) Dany is awakening dragons and about to hatch them, embracing her dragon blood, and 2) the Amethyst Empress is stabbed in the back, wargs into her dragon as she dies.

Very interesting and very cool--what makes you think the Amethyst Empress is tied to dragons? Based on my cursory understanding, I would say the Bloodstone Emperor with his blood sacrifice/murder is more tied to dragons. 

5 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Dany dreams of flying to Westeros and "arms to keep her warm" meaning: 1) Dany has always associated Westeros with home, and 2) AE's soul in her dragon's body is flying to Westeros where she has a loved one (the exiled sapphire knight)

Dany sees a figure in black armor, when the visor opens the face is her own 1) Dany is inheriting Rhaegar's mantle as the Last Dragon and 2) the AE's loved one has her face, i.e. is her twin, the sapphire knight.

So by that interpretation the black armored figure is not only Rhaegar but also the sapphire/ice magic knight (maiden and knight--woohoo, I'm almost back on topic!) and the black armor, I believe, thus intersects with Jon's dream of wearing black ice armor.

In Jon's dream he wears black ice armor and carries a flaming sword.

In Dany's dream she becomes a fiery dragon and sees her own face in a suit of black (ice) armor.

On one level, the level Dany understands at the time, she metaphorically sees herself in Rhaegar. But on another level both Dany and Jon are dreaming of themselves as figures of both ice and fire. And in a way it frames both of them as "last dragon" figures.

1. RE: "woohoo, I'm almost back on topic!"

HA!! I know exactly how you feel!  (Still, I can't see any way to avoid branching out on topics if we want to figure anything out.)

2. On the warm arms: before she gets to that moment, the phrase "wake the dragon" is associated with: her love for Drogo turning "home" into flamey horror:

"Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame.

Then with Jorah's telling her about Rhaegar, only to fall apart: 

One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone. She felt the dark behind her, and the red door seemed farther away than ever.

Then Viserys, screaming "I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" as he assaults her while molten gold puts down his face.

"I am the dragon and I will be crowned!" he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

Then Rhaego's turning into ashes: 

And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

Then the ghosts with white swords () begging her to run. But she's either caught from behind and split open OR the dragon emerges to help her. Either way, she flies. It seems glorious. Everyone is afraid of her and she loves it. And then:

Spoiler

She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

"… the dragon …"

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.

After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire within her, and the whisperings of stars.

She woke to the taste of ashes.

"No," she moaned, "no, please." Game, Daenerys IX

This just doesn't seem like triumph. This seems like horror--the dragon is death and ashes. It does help her escape for a while. Just as waking the dragons protects Dany for a while. It makes her feel triumphant. But where does it lead her? To Rhaegar's armor that he died in.

She may very well have inherited Rhaegar's mantle. But she's also embraced Aerys' fire and blood killing. That might give her a hand up. But. . . she wakes with the taste of ash in her mouth. That doesn't seem like the breakfast of champions.

3. Jon's dream is horrifying, but he's at least somewhat winning, despite the cost. He's becoming the one who leads the fight for the Dawn. And we don't see the end of the dream. But Dany doesn't see such a fight--she just sees herself in the armor Rhaegar died in. And wakes to the taste of ashes. Those seem like different fates.

Quote

It could also foreshadow Dany and Jon becoming ill fated lovers--I think Dany's vision of the blue rose in the wall of ice also foreshadows this. Not just Jon but a star-crossed romance with Jon. The maid and the knight, echoing through time, never quite growing old together for whatever reason.

So I agree the dream carries foreshadowing of doom, but in a "Dany's true love is romantically doomed" way rather than a "Dany is doomed to wreck the world" way.

1. Possible on the love affair--though if I had to choose, I think Sansa and Jon will end up together--the true fighter. The wolf maid and the sworn fighter. As you say--the maid and the knight. At home in Winterfell. 

But Dany does have that moment (in Clash???) where she can't picture her lover. So. . . maybe. And she does see the rose, as you say.

2. On the "doomed to wreck the world: "The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world." Game, Daenerys X. 

That crack could ABSOLUTELY be revolutionary and even positive. But given some of the imagery around Dany's "waking the dragon," as well as how well the dragons how actually helped her rule. . . I'm wary that Dany's dreams of a better world are coming true. Which makes me sad.

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Haven't been able to read the whole thread so far, but quickly wanted to point something out about Sandor for sure having had the 'true knight' ideal as a child. What item did he risk his brother's wrath for? A toy. What was the toy? A wooden knight.

Yup!!!

We talked about it a bit upthread--that Sandor can't be as angry as he is at knights without having some residual belief. As you say--an ideal that started early.

I still say that his giving Sansa his white Kingsguard cloak stained with blood and fire is significant and symbolic--all that he's had to do, all that he's refused to do, who breaks Sandor is the use of the Targaryens' wildfire. For that, he will NOT be the loyal dog. So, what would other true knights do in the face of Targaryen atrocity? 

As Jaime says to Meryn: "You will temper your obedience" to the king. Jaime gets this principle a bit late in life, but he gets it: knightly ideals trump vile kings. And Sandor gets it, too. Again--what would the knight Jaime idealizes have done in the face of a vile king?

Sandor may not be perfect. He's a bit of a bear  as you've shown (apologies for taking your nuanced argument and turning it into a short sentence). 

None of the sworn fighter types who help the Stark maids have been ideal so far. But Sandor does get some of it right, even through broken idealism. And he's the one the Stark Wolf Maid (who echoes Lyanna and is soon to be called a rose), actually romanticizes and sexualizes. Vs. other men. I really think that's there for a reason. 

Am getting off my Hound Soapbox now.

[sweetsunray]

As, I mentioned I have been working on an article in the bear analysis regarding Sansa-Sandor as maiden and bear, for that analysis series. I already updated the article about Dany-Jorah (on my blog), that incorporates the 'knight versus bear/beast' angle. In many ways, Sandor-Sansa parallel Dany-Jorah themes regarding knighthood versus the bear, but with reversals.

It's noteworthy that Dany does not refer to Jorah as a bear, but once, before he kisses her. The only time she thinks of him as a bear before that is right after he tells her the story of Lynesse in aCoK, which is his bear-swan maiden story. She only thinks of him as the 'knight' otherwise before aSoS, and she has a strong fascination from the start for him, because he is a knight... an oddity for a man of the North who follows the Old Gods. And of course, he's not much of a true knight, having tried to sell poachers as slaves, then flee from justice, and finally spy on Dany, and never truly owning up to his deeds (well he admits it after getting caught, but he makes light of it, expecting Dany to forgive him, because he saved her life). The true knight theme becomes acutely important to Dany when she realizes that Jorah spied on her and that the squire Arstan lied about his identity. 

“Are all the knights of Westeros so false as you two? Get out, before my dragons roast you both. What does roast liar smell like? As foul as Brown Ben’s sewers? Go!” (aSoS, Daenerys V)

… My gallant knights of Westeros, an informer and a turncloak. My brother would have hanged you both… (aSoS, Daenerys VI)

Like Sansa, Dany only has stories to go by when it comes to 'knights'. Often Sansa is frowned upon for her naive ideas about knights. But she is much in the same situation as Dany. Aside from Manderlys and the very exceptional Jorah who gets knighted by the king as a direct consequence of his bravery in battle, there are no knights in the North, just as there are no knights (except for sellswords) in Essos. If she does not know any knights personally, then she had nothing else to go by but the stories, songs and vows the Septa told her. The Faith and lore sets them apart from 'warriors' such as in the North, but in practice of course, the Southern knights are exactly that - the same as the household trained warriors her father has at WF. They are not intrinsically more moral men. They are knighted in order to kill and be the bodyguard of their lord without question. Except of course, there is much more splendor and entitlement about them, because of the stories and the tourneys. Sansa simply has as little experience with knights as Dany has in another continent. Dany gets much less flack for going "oooh, a knight" when she's first introduced to Jorah than Sansa is fascinated by them in aGoT, because it is far more evident that Dany has no way to acquire experience to compare knights to one another. It's just as true for Sansa of the North, but because she is at Westeros, readers assume too quickly she ought to know, while Waymar Royce is probably the first knight she ever personally met, and that only briefly. And of course, Dany has no Sandor telling her that knights have no more morals than a sellsword for readers to pick up on.

Eventually, Jorah the bear becomes this spiritual guidance in the Dothraki Sea in the final chapter of Dany in aDwD, and here we see a reversal of the Beauty-Beast theme. In the Beauty-Beast story, the Beauty gentles the Beast: he becomes a better and higher morally man. But the main function of Jorah as beastly Bear is to make Dany connect with her beast, the dragon. Jorah does not become a better man at heart. Sure, he saves Dany's life, but that's Dany in particular. He wouldn't help another woman or child. In fact, when he joins the sellsword company after escaping the bonds of slavery and has a sword back in his hand, he revives much, though the sellsword company is set out to battle against Dany and Mereen as far as he knows originally. It's not Dany that revives him, but having a sword in his hands and the chance to kill. Jorah is one of those knights Sandor talks about - made for killing. Is Jorah an evil man like Gregor? Of course not. He's merely a selfish man. He's decent enough a human being to others when it does not inconvenience him or his desires. But he won't sacrifice himself for them. Even with Dany it is self-serving, because he wants the girl.

BTW, when it comes to star constellations, Draco's tail is right smack in the middle of Ursa Major and Ursa Minor. The minor bear (often depicted as a bear cub) is actually enveloped by the dragon's body, as if the bear cub transforms into a dragon. So, the star constellations we know are reminiscint of Jorah and Dany's tale... the parent bear leads the bear cub that transforms into a dragon. (I thought @LmL would find that interesting)

Sandor-Sansa show a reversal in that Sandor is not actually sworn to her, he isn't an official knight either, he doesn't actually kiss her, and though he kidnaps Arya as Jorah kidnaps Tyrion, he ends up protecting and saving her and wants to return her to her family, while Jorah kidnaps Tyrion to Tyrion's supposed enemy. With Sandor we do witness a gentling of the heart and mind; perhaps not in words, but in actions. It does not only apply to Sansa, but extends to her sister Arya and even towards the squire she killed or the Pinkmaiden soldier they find. Despite himself, he does go out of his way. It's not just Sansa even who transforms him. Sansa is the one who starts the transformation process in him, but once it gets going, others help him along the way (Arya, the septon)... which is correct if someone is actually open to a process of change. It might be inspired or sparked by one person, but once the ball gets rolling, it doesn't stop in their absence. His interaction with Sansa gave him the momentum for it, but transformation otherwise follows Newton's laws of movement... Sandor keeps going (slowly), and Arya and the septon add more momentum.

Finally, Sandor and Sansa mirror each other in avoidance of cognitive dissonance. Initially, Sansa believes that knights = true knight by definition. If men are knighted, to her it means they must be true knights (because of the knighting ritual and the vows). She only distinguishes them by looks and age (see the Beric versus Loras discussion she has with Jeyne after her father's decision to send Beric). This is her belief. Our minds are very protective of our beliefs. When we get conflicting data to our beliefs from real life experience, we tend to block this data out rather than alter our beliefs. This is because a discrepance between reality and our beliefs lead to cognitive dissonance. It's an unpleasant to painful state to the brain, depending on how important the belief is to us. If the belief is deeply rooted and all pervasive (like the beleif that we won't die, or our parent will be there always, or about how society works) it becomes crucial to our mental survival. If we were to try to completely alter such beliefs to the data coming from rl experience and data, we'd experience symptoms of depression. It's just energetically too much to cope for the brain. Instead we adapt the beliefs by creating exceptions. So, while knights = true knights as a rule to Sansa, Gregor Clegane and the hedge knight that disgraced himself by killing Beric's horse are the rare exception to her ruling belief. Of course, she has to group more and more knights among the exceptions so that eventually she ends up with two groups: there are knights (for killing as Sandor says) and then there are true knights. It takes time and lots of bad experiences for her mentally to reach that point. If she were to do it instantly, she'd be in bed with curtains drawn for months... And that is exactly the mental state she's in after the beheading of her father. She saw it happen, right before... the father who could not die, his body twitching, the prince who was a hero and smiling at her ordering it to be done. There was no time given to her there, no chance to deny reality. And she instantly ends up in a pre-suicidal depressive state. It is a typical example of what cognitive dissonance does to our brain when it's about deeply held beliefs regarding our survival and life status, and it helps us understand why our brain prefers the gradual approach... Remaining functional over disfunctional is always preferable short-term wise, even if it means we must lie to ourselves.

Sandor's denial of true knights even existing stems from the same mental trick: to avoid cogntidive dissonance. He had the same ideal of true knighthood as a young child, and it was brutally destroyed by Gregor and his father when Gregor brutally hurt him and their father kept it secret and lied about it. Not only did it disfigure him, but it would have been torture. If you've ever have had 2nd degree burns on your hands for example, then imagine what agony a child would be in if half their face was burned to the 3rd degree? It would have been an agony of weeks, nay months. It's a miracle he didn't actually go nuts over it, confronted day and night with the continuous burning sensation on your head, and the itching of what was healing, but the scarred skin breaking again when talking or smiling or doing anything with your face. Shudder.... So, this child had to go through that much physical pain for a very long time, and it was purposefully done to him by his own brother, not accidental, but wilfully, and then the father protects the brother who does that... and all that over a wooden knight. He grew up in a violent household of hypocrisy (the opposite of Sansa's WF) where nobody was safe, and in an area of Tywinesque rule. Of course, he creates a belief that the world is a dog-eat-dog world. That belief was crucial to his survival. Just as Sansa suddenly only sees Joffrey's lips as wormlike when she smiles and Joffrey becomes the complete opposite of what she believed him to be after the shock-treatment, Sandor believes the complete opposite of what he beleived in before: from true knights to they don't exist. The circumstances were so harsh and undeniably cruel that cognitive dissonance could not be avoided, and that the contrasting reality was instantly embraced as the new belief to transplant the old. For Sandor the reversal was about true knigthhood. For Sansa it was parents don't get to live forever and Joffrey is no hero who I can manipulate out of love for me. Meanwhile, Sansa keeps avoiding cognitive dissonance when it comes to knighthood.

And Sandor is confronted with this denial process in Sansa - despite Joffrey ordering her father's death, the beatings, she still somehow clings to this ideal of true knighthood. The discussion she has with Sandor where she thinks 'the stories can't be all lies" occurs after the stripping and worst beating she gets in the throne room. He knows she's afraid, that she has suffered in a manner she was not prepared for, and yet somehow she still insists that true knights must exist, and what true knighthood is about. From the start, in aGoT, he already warns her and tries to teach her his world-view, not just because her naivity insults him, but probably because he recognizes his child-self in her. He's like the protective father who tries to teach and prepare her for the world, to cushion the disappointment. In that way, he already bonds with her, despite himself. Then when catastrophe strikes he expects the same results and change of beliefs in Sansa as happened with him. He's projecting his own mental process onto her about knighthood. But that doesn't happen, not about knighthood. This startles him. What he fails to comprehend was that they come from a different household. Little Sandor would not have had a positive belief about Gregor and his father to begin with. He was probably bullied before the brazier incident by his brother since he was born. And he would have already witnessed how his father protected his brother from people knowing about it. The incident would not have shocked him into reversing his beliefs about his brother and father, because he would have had low expectations of them already. It was the fact that Gregor got knighted anyway that was the real shock. It's different with Sansa.

Anyway, confronted with Sansa's process of avoiding cog-dis when it comes to true knighthood and already protectively bonded to her, he makes this speech to self assert his self-beliefs: he's not afraid, a killer... heck on that tower, the evening before she gets her first period, he utterly wishes to reject true knighthood more for himself than for her imo. He's pumping himself up for the fight to come. And then he fights and goes out into that hellfire that Tyrion created on the Blackwater and his primal fear for fire takes over. He leaves the battle field, a broken man (and per Maribold's speech about broken men, more beast than man). One of the most significant statements Sandor makes in her room is how he lost himself, that he lost "all". His mental walls and beliefs about himself are utterly shaking, he might as well be her fool, her Florian. He expects that song. He wants that song from her. And it's not what she can give him. Instead, she gives him a song of mercy and peace. She cares but at the time not in the way he wants it (she's still asexual at the time). And as this is so evident to him, as clear as day, he departs. Not only is that white cloak bloodied. It's torn (like an act of divorce/separation). He does give her up. It's as if he suddenly realized that his whole romantic fantasy that he allows for that one moment gets thrown back into his face like a cold but kind shower, and the song actually restores him to be a man again, instead of a beast, enough not to harm her.

When we see him next, it's as captive of the BwB. Despite Sansa's ideas of Beric and Loras regarding who's the truer knight, Beric is one of the truest knights in the books so far. He's not perfect. He has to make compromizes, but he's one of the rare examples who acts almost purely out of principal. In the most hellish region, this one guy still attempts to maintain justice, feed farmers and villagers. Yes, he must steal or ask ransoms for Arya, but he shelters people, gives Sandor a trial by combat and releases him and has no intention of giving Arya to Lannisters. If must needs be, he'll send her to his own home in the marchlands. So, Sandor meets this "true knight" (or pretty much the closest thing to it) and he completely denies it, mocks it. He accuses them of being nothing more than murderers and thieves. He can't even believe that Beric used Sandor's money to buy food for peasants. The idea is simply outrageous to him. Again, we see avoidance of cog-dis at work here.

Next, he witnesses the whole knighting ritual with Gendry being knighted... the ritual he considers a farce by definition, and something he refused to be done to him. And Beric is making that common pitch-forked rabble into knights. More confrontation about knighthood. Meanwhile Gendry certainly has similar ideals and principals than Beric has. It's why he wanted to join the BwB in the first place, even foregoing a chance to comfortably smith at RR. 

Instead, Sandor decides he can do one better than Beric - get the reward, the position and the girl back to her mother. And the unthinkable happens. There's no mother anymore to give her to, no brother anymore to join the army with, and the route to the aunt would get them killed. So, now he's stuck with the child who berates him constantly that he didn't save her mother and killed her friend. All of a sudden he's the one responsible of this homeless orphan and she has very high standards regarding heroism. She's like this little angel kicking his mental shins all the time - "Oh, you thought you'd be a hero and deserving of praise for taking me under your wing? It doesn't wash away your ghastly past when you butchered children. And it wasn't me who needed saving. I was safe with Beric. It was my mother who needed saving."  It's not always what she says directly, but it's implied... because he at some point tells her, "Why don't you join Beric's rabble again?" Not even as he's dying does she stop kicking his mental shins over it. And yet she does not kill him.

[Sly Wren]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

As, I mentioned I have been working on an article in the bear analysis regarding Sansa-Sandor as maiden and bear, for that analysis series. I already updated the article about Dany-Jorah (on my blog), that incorporates the 'knight versus bear/beast' angle. In many ways, Sandor-Sansa parallel Dany-Jorah themes regarding knighthood versus the bear, but with reversals.

I need to check that out. And I agree on the knighthood angle working with Dany as well as Sansa.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

It's noteworthy that Dany does not refer to Jorah as a bear, but once, before he kisses her. The only time she thinks of him as a bear before that is right after he tells her the story of Lynesse in aCoK, which is his bear-swan maiden story. She only thinks of him as the 'knight' otherwise before aSoS, and she has a strong fascination from the start for him, because he is a knight... an oddity for a man of the North who follows the Old Gods.

And of course, he's not much of a true knight, having tried to sell poachers as slaves, then flee from justice, and finally spy on Dany, and never truly owning up to his deeds (well he admits it after getting caught, but he makes light of it, expecting Dany to forgive him, because he saved her life). # 1. The true knight theme becomes acutely important to Dany when she realizes that Jorah spied on her and that the squire Arstan lied about his identity. 

“Are all the knights of Westeros so false as you two? Get out, before my dragons roast you both. What does roast liar smell like? As foul as Brown Ben’s sewers? Go!” (aSoS, Daenerys V)

… My gallant knights of Westeros, an informer and a turncloak. My brother would have hanged you both… (aSoS, Daenerys VI)

<snip>

Eventually, Jorah the bear becomes this spiritual guidance in the Dothraki Sea in the final chapter of Dany in aDwD, and here we see a reversal of the Beauty-Beast theme. In the Beauty-Beast story, the Beauty gentles the Beast: he becomes a better and higher morally man. #2: But the main function of Jorah as beastly Bear is to make Dany connect with her beast, the dragon. Jorah does not become a better man at heart. Sure, he saves Dany's life, but that's Dany in particular. He wouldn't help another woman or child. In fact, when he joins the sellsword company after escaping the bonds of slavery and has a sword back in his hand, he revives much, though the sellsword company is set out to battle against Dany and Mereen as far as he knows originally. It's not Dany that revives him, but having a sword in his hands and the chance to kill. Jorah is one of those knights Sandor talks about - made for killing. Is Jorah an evil man like Gregor? Of course not. He's merely a selfish man. He's decent enough a human being to others when it does not inconvenience him or his desires. But he won't sacrifice himself for them. #3: Even with Dany it is self-serving, because he wants the girl.

I like it! A few ideas:

#1. "My brother would have hanged you both." Dany says. Then thinks: Viserys would have, anyway. She did not know what Rhaegar would have done.

Odd--after hearing stories of Rhaegar from Barristan and Jorah, she's rethinking the ideals. But struggling to get them right in rule. The true knight ideal matters--but also trying to figure out how she relates to knights, false or true, as ruler. Which makes a difference from Sansa and Arya--who look to knights/fighters as helpers vs. subjects.

#2. I had not thought of that idea, but I like it. The fighter as leading the maid to what she really needs. Though I'm not sold on the dragons being a good thing in the end. I think Dany may end up in a bad way.

But the Hound helps Sansa (intentionally or not) to re-asses her idea of knights. She won't reject it. But she does begin to evaluate knights into "true" and "not true." And "helpful" and "not helpful"--she wishes Dontos has some of the Hound's ferocity. So, not so much taking Sansa to the beast, but helping her see what will actually help her.

#3: Yes--I feel for Jorah, but I think you are right on that one. Though one of the reasons he wants her is because she is the dragon queen. Which does somewhat fit into the idea of chivalry--knightly loyalty to the queen. 

Which might make them an echo of Cersei and Jaime. . . need to think on that.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 So, while knights = true knights as a rule to Sansa, Gregor Clegane and the hedge knight that disgraced himself by killing Beric's horse are the rare exception to her ruling belief. Of course, she has to group more and more knights among the exceptions so that eventually she ends up with two groups: there are knights (for killing as Sandor says) and then there are true knights. It takes time and lots of bad experiences for her mentally to reach that point. If she were to do it instantly, she'd be in bed with curtains drawn for months... And that is exactly the mental state she's in after the beheading of her father. She saw it happen, right before... the father who could not die, his body twitching, the prince who was a hero and smiling at her ordering it to be done. There was no time given to her there, no chance to deny reality. And she instantly ends up in a pre-suicidal depressive state. It is a typical example of what cognitive dissonance does to our brain when it's about deeply held beliefs regarding our survival and life status, and it helps us understand why our brain prefers the gradual approach... Remaining functional over disfunctional is always preferable short-term wise, even if it means we must lie to ourselves.

1. On the snipped part--agreed on Arya and the Septon helping Sandor.

Though I still say it focuses the reader on Lyanna's echoes--Sansa and Arya need to knight to help them. They may be learning more self-reliance. But they aren't Wonder Women. And both are helped by the KG who refused to be a knight like his brother. And who rejected the white cloak stained with blood and fire--while the skies were green with wildfire. That scene--there's got to be a reason why Martin used that phrase "stained with blood and fire" for his cloak. . . 

2. On the bolded: agreed. Though I don't think it's just to avoid cognitive dissonance. Ned, Bran, Jon, Arya--all of them believe in these ideals. When people fail, they blame the person (Arya kicks the corpse in the stable) vs. the ideal. Even when Jon fails at his ideal, he strives to reclaim it. To reassert his ideal by doing better.

So, it seems like Martin is arguing that the ideal is important. And with both of Lyanna's echoes still holding ideals of the fighter, especially Sansa--seems like it's there for a reason. She's discerning. But she hasn't lost faith. 

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Anyway, confronted with Sansa's process of avoiding cog-dis when it comes to true knighthood and already protectively bonded to her, he makes this speech to self assert his self-beliefs: he's not afraid, a killer... heck on that tower, the evening before she gets her first period, he utterly wishes to reject true knighthood more for himself than for her imo. He's pumping himself up for the fight to come.

And then he fights and goes out into that hellfire that Tyrion created on the Blackwater and his primal fear for fire takes over. He leaves the battle field, a broken man (and per Maribold's speech about broken men, more beast than man). One of the most significant statements Sandor makes in her room is how he lost himself, that he lost "all". His mental walls and beliefs about himself are utterly shaking, he might as well be her fool, her Florian. He expects that song. He wants that song from her. And it's not what she can give him. Instead, she gives him a song of mercy and peace. She cares but at the time not in the way he wants it (she's still asexual at the time). And as this is so evident to him, as clear as day, he departs. Not only is that white cloak bloodied. It's torn (like an act of divorce/separation). He does give her up. It's as if he suddenly realized that his whole romantic fantasy that he allows for that one moment gets thrown back into his face like a cold but kind shower, and the song actually restores him to be a man again, instead of a beast, enough not to harm her.

I agree with a lot of this--though I think it's not just primal fear of fire. That fire is associated with the betrayal of his brother and father when Gregor burned him. 

Clegane's eyes turned toward the distant fires. "All this burning." He sheathed his sword. "Only cowards fight with fire." Clash, Sansa VII

He sees fighting with fire as cowardice. In this case, Targ wildfire. Which, let's face it, was cowardice and viciousness on Aerys' part. What Tyrion does--it's a good plan. But it is also horrible. The Hound refuses to see anything but the horror. Not sure he can see it.

And that horror of wildfire and association not only with his horrible part but with cowardice per se--l agree he's giving up the romantic fantasy of Sansa. But as you say--he's also embracing a "truer" kind of knighthood by protecting her. Offering to take her home. And then leaving his cloak for her. 

Given the horror of being a Kingsguard as described by Jaime, I can't help but wonder how the KG Jaime idolizes reacted to the atrocity of Wildfire Governance. So far, we have Sandor breaking from the king over wildfire. Jaime killing the king over wildfire. Barristan stuck it out until rejected. So, what would the knight that both Jaime and Barristan admired have done in the face of wildfire?

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

When we see him next, it's as captive of the BwB. Despite Sansa's ideas of Beric and Loras regarding who's the truer knight, Beric is one of the truest knights in the books so far. He's not perfect. He has to make compromizes, but he's one of the rare examples who acts almost purely out of principal. In the most hellish region, this one guy still attempts to maintain justice, feed farmers and villagers. Yes, he must steal or ask ransoms for Arya, but he shelters people, gives Sandor a trial by combat and releases him and has no intention of giving Arya to Lannisters. If must needs be, he'll send her to his own home in the marchlands. So, Sandor meets this "true knight" (or pretty much the closest thing to it) and he completely denies it, mocks it. He accuses them of being nothing more than murderers and thieves. He can't even believe that Beric used Sandor's money to buy food for peasants. The idea is simply outrageous to him. Again, we see avoidance of cog-dis at work here.

Good point re: Beric. I also think he deserves kudos for remaining somewhat idealistic in the face of no longer being fully human. That's a neat trick. And, back to the true knight thing--Beric's ties to the Sword of the Morning via the Daynes, seems like that's there for a reason. Even purple with white stars on his lightning sigil.

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Instead,

#1 Sandor decides he can do one better than Beric - get the reward, the position and the girl back to her mother. And the unthinkable happens. There's no mother anymore to give her to, no brother anymore to join the army with, and the route to the aunt would get them killed. So, now he's stuck with the child who berates him constantly that he didn't save her mother and killed her friend. #2 All of a sudden he's the one responsible of this homeless orphan and she has very high standards regarding heroism. She's like this little angel kicking his mental shins all the time - "Oh, you thought you'd be a hero and deserving of praise for taking me under your wing? It doesn't wash away your ghastly past when you butchered children. And it wasn't me who needed saving. I was safe with Beric. It was my mother who needed saving."  It's not always what she says directly, but it's implied... because he at some point tells her, "Why don't you join Beric's rabble again?" Not even as he's dying does she stop kicking his mental shins over it. And yet she does not kill him.

#1: Agreed--though Beric's not a fluffy bunny of virtue on this--he does still intend to sell Arya. Vs. just protecting her. It's still not quite ideal.

#2: That does seem to be the way of it with the wayward knight: IE: Jaime and Brienne. Vs. the Wayward knight who gives in: Arys Oakheart. Jaime and Cersei.

And then there's Jon--who gives is to Ygritte AND goes back. Like Jaime (to some extent) giving that order to Meryn to "temper his obedience" to a corrupt king. And sending Brienne after Sansa.

Sandor seems like he has a chance at the Jaime and Jon route vs. the Oakheart one. 

And it again raises the question: in a world where the "true" knight is never perfect, but usually falls and gets back up--what did the finest knight Ned ever saw do when confronted with his corrupt king?

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

I like it! A few ideas:

#1. "My brother would have hanged you both." Dany says. Then thinks: Viserys would have, anyway. She did not know what Rhaegar would have done.

Odd--after hearing stories of Rhaegar from Barristan and Jorah, she's rethinking the ideals. But struggling to get them right in rule. The true knight ideal matters--but also trying to figure out how she relates to knights, false or true, as ruler. Which makes a difference from Sansa and Arya--who look to knights/fighters as helpers vs. subjects.

Yes, Dany thinks about true knighthood from a ruler's perspective: as councelors and queensguard; and that's different from how Sansa and Arya look at them. She ends up sending Jorah away, though knowing full well he loves her and saved her life. But he acts inappropriate to his ruler, too familiar. Heck, he's so proud he expects his queen to apologize to him. Meanwhile she keeps dutiful Barristan on, but she quickly finds him a boring old man (echo of Jon rolling his eyes at his NW councelors, already knowing their arguments before they make them)... and she seeks solace with her bad boy sellsword.

In that sense I see a possible echo with Criston Cole for Jorah or Daario (alternatively). He was KG and in love with Rhaenyra or at least a courtly love for her, but he's the one who's dead set against her becoming queen and conspires with the greens. Whatever happened between those two, it must have been something very personal. Anyway, Criston Cole has that same overly familiar aura about him imo.

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#2. I had not thought of that idea, but I like it. The fighter as leading the maid to what she really needs. Though I'm not sold on the dragons being a good thing in the end. I think Dany may end up in a bad way.

But the Hound helps Sansa (intentionally or not) to re-asses her idea of knights. She won't reject it. But she does begin to evaluate knights into "true" and "not true." And "helpful" and "not helpful"--she wishes Dontos has some of the Hound's ferocity. So, not so much taking Sansa to the beast, but helping her see what will actually help her.

 

Oh, I'm not sold on the "oooh dragons! she's the good gal!" idea either. On the contrary - I'm highly sceptical of it. Dragons + IB + Dothraki heading for a war ravaged continent... Hmmmm. But I just observe how here the Beast and the Beauty theme seems to work in the opposite direction: the Beauty connects with her inner beast, rather than the Beast getting connected with his inner humanity. Initially Jorah is set up that way in aGoT, making her be critical about Viserys ever being a good king. But somehow, along the way, in aSoS when he argues for Dany to go to Astapor and get the Unsullied it somehow ends up the opposite way.

And yes, with Sandor and Sansa she opens the doors for him to get in touch with the man, rather than that she becomes a beast. His teachings do help her get a far more realistic expectation about knights.

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#3: Yes--I feel for Jorah, but I think you are right on that one. Though one of the reasons he wants her is because she is the dragon queen. Which does somewhat fit into the idea of chivalry--knightly loyalty to the queen. 

Which might make them an echo of Cersei and Jaime. . . need to think on that.

 

He mostly just lusts after her. But his pride and expecting his queen to apologize to him does not fit the chivalry-loyalty of a knight.
 

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1. On the snipped part--agreed on Arya and the Septon helping Sandor.

Though I still say it focuses the reader on Lyanna's echoes--Sansa and Arya need to knight to help them. They may be learning more self-reliance. But they aren't Wonder Women. And both are helped by the KG who refused to be a knight like his brother. And who rejected the white cloak stained with blood and fire--while the skies were green with wildfire. That scene--there's got to be a reason why Martin used that phrase "stained with blood and fire" for his cloak. . . 

 

Yeah, it goes without saying. But Arya only needs his protection and help once he takes her. She was safe with the BwB. She wasn't rambling about on her own. In fact, while she ran out of the stable into the rain when she realized her mother and brother wouldn't be at RR and the Blackfish was someone the BwB feared to approach, she wasn't intent on running away from them. She said so, believing the person who grabbed her to be BwB, but then it turned out to be Sandor.

Well, the bloodied white cloak certainly evokes the image of deflowering. Le Cigne makes a convincing connectiong to the "tearing" of the cloak as the taking of that maidenhood. But it can also be seen as a type of divorce, from the KG and from Sansa by Sandor.

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2. On the bolded: agreed. Though I don't think it's just to avoid cognitive dissonance. Ned, Bran, Jon, Arya--all of them believe in these ideals. When people fail, they blame the person (Arya kicks the corpse in the stable) vs. the ideal. Even when Jon fails at his ideal, he strives to reclaim it. To reassert his ideal by doing better.

So, it seems like Martin is arguing that the ideal is important. And with both of Lyanna's echoes still holding ideals of the fighter, especially Sansa--seems like it's there for a reason. She's discerning. But she hasn't lost faith. 

The ideal of the true knight is important. Jaime does have his dream where the KG ghosts and Rhaegar remind him of the "children". And the verse of the Warrior of the song of the Seven clearly declares that the warrior's purose is to protect and guard the children. The killing and fighting is not the goal itself. It's what Gendry is doing at the orphan's inn, and why I always say that he's not a smith alone (who 'builds' for the children). Gendry has the skill of a craftsman, but it's not the purpose he chases, not even when he's with Tobho. He didn't even want to sell his craft (the helm).

It's not the ideal of the true knight that is problematic or that Sansa needs to wake up from. It's the belief that all knights by definition are true knights that is false. That's the illusion. And it's not a realistic expectation of everyone.

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I agree with a lot of this--though I think it's not just primal fear of fire. That fire is associated with the betrayal of his brother and father when Gregor burned him. 

Clegane's eyes turned toward the distant fires. "All this burning." He sheathed his sword. "Only cowards fight with fire." Clash, Sansa VII

He sees fighting with fire as cowardice. In this case, Targ wildfire. Which, let's face it, was cowardice and viciousness on Aerys' part. What Tyrion does--it's a good plan. But it is also horrible. The Hound refuses to see anything but the horror. Not sure he can see it.

And that horror of wildfire and association not only with his horrible part but with cowardice per se--l agree he's giving up the romantic fantasy of Sansa. But as you say--he's also embracing a "truer" kind of knighthood by protecting her. Offering to take her home. And then leaving his cloak for her. 

Given the horror of being a Kingsguard as described by Jaime, I can't help but wonder how the KG Jaime idolizes reacted to the atrocity of Wildfire Governance. So far, we have Sandor breaking from the king over wildfire. Jaime killing the king over wildfire. Barristan stuck it out until rejected. So, what would the knight that both Jaime and Barristan admired have done in the face of wildfire?

 

With the primal fear for fire, I do mean to imply that his own experience makes his fear for fire extremely primal. I just have to imagine the months it would have taken to heal from those burning wounds and the agony he was in.

But I do like the connection you make with Jaime there: a king using fire as his champion or weapon is a coward.

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#1: Agreed--though Beric's not a fluffy bunny of virtue on this--he does still intend to sell Arya. Vs. just protecting her. It's still not quite ideal.

The ideal was not really possible here. First of all, it was the Tyroshi who refused to deliver Arya to RR without going to Beric with her first. Beric set out immediately to RR with her then, fighting the Bloody Mummers along the way. Even if he had no intention of asking a ransom, the same thing would have happened. Cat and Robb would have already left for the Twins. But it's true that Beric makes a compromise here: get her back to her mother, but for a price for food, horses and arms. But he's got no intention to sell her to the highest bidder either. He attempts to make a win-win out of it, and he fails. Even the man closest to the ideal has to deal with reality: feed people, protect people, hunt Bloody Mummers and get a child back to her mother. And he did say that if her mother didn't want her back, he'd get her to safe home anyway, if must needs be his own Blackhaven. 
 

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#2: That does seem to be the way of it with the wayward knight: IE: Jaime and Brienne. Vs. the Wayward knight who gives in: Arys Oakheart. Jaime and Cersei.

And then there's Jon--who gives is to Ygritte AND goes back. Like Jaime (to some extent) giving that order to Meryn to "temper his obedience" to a corrupt king. And sending Brienne after Sansa.

Sandor seems like he has a chance at the Jaime and Jon route vs. the Oakheart one. 

 

Actually, I think Sandor has a better chance at it than Jaime. I'm not pleased with Jaime all that much, not even with sending Brienne to do his job really. He should have been searching for Sansa and/or Arya. Cat hadn't ordered Brienne to find her daughters, but to deliver Jaime back to KL and for Jaime to get her daughters back. And then there's the siege against RR.

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And it again raises the question: in a world where the "true" knight is never perfect, but usually falls and gets back up--what did the finest knight Ned ever saw do when confronted with his corrupt king?

We don't know. We only know he swore a vow.

[Sly Wren]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, Dany thinks about true knighthood from a ruler's perspective: as councelors and queensguard; and that's different from how Sansa and Arya look at them. She ends up sending Jorah away, though knowing full well he loves her and saved her life. But he acts inappropriate to his ruler, too familiar. Heck, he's so proud he expects his queen to apologize to him. Meanwhile she keeps dutiful Barristan on, but she quickly finds him a boring old man (echo of Jon rolling his eyes at his NW councelors, already knowing their arguments before they make them)... and she seeks solace with her bad boy sellsword.

In that sense I see a possible echo with Criston Cole for Jorah or Daario (alternatively). He was KG and in love with Rhaenyra or at least a courtly love for her, but he's the one who's dead set against her becoming queen and conspires with the greens. Whatever happened between those two, it must have been something very personal. Anyway, Criston Cole has that same overly familiar aura about him imo.

1. Martin's repeatedly returning to the theme of the sworn fighter, of faithfulness to ideals and the cost of breaking old codes--guestright, kinslaying, and knightly codes (Jaime's taking Meryn to task re: Sansa)--I can't shake the feeling that this will matter more in the final battle than conquering and ruling.

As you say, Dany's not fully willing to listen to Barristan--though his information should give her pause about what she's thinking of doing. I'm also wondering how she'd react to hearing his struggle to know what's the right thing to do as a knight--probably smile politely then ignore it. But given how much time Martin spends on the basic subject--I'm thinking it will really matter. 

2. I hadn't thought of Criston Cole, but I like it. So, are you thinking Dany's knights might betray her?

Like an odd reversal of Oakheart's willingness to be seduced by Arianne gets Myrcella maimed?

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Oh, I'm not sold on the "oooh dragons! she's the good gal!" idea either. On the contrary - I'm highly sceptical of it. Dragons + IB + Dothraki heading for a war ravaged continent... Hmmmm. But I just observe how here the Beast and the Beauty theme seems to work in the opposite direction: the Beauty connects with her inner beast, rather than the Beast getting connected with his inner humanity. Initially Jorah is set up that way in aGoT, making her be critical about Viserys ever being a good king. But somehow, along the way, in aSoS when he argues for Dany to go to Astapor and get the Unsullied it somehow ends up the opposite way.

I like the bolded. And it worries me. Especially with her reunion with the Dothraki. As @LmL and others have pointed out, Dany's embraced her role as "moon is wife of sun"--a goddess. Now, she's embracing the fire and blood of the Targs. She's the dragon with three heads--these aren't "human" roles. The "blood of the dragon" could easily work against her.

Reminds me of arguments I've seen that the dragon is a blessing and a curse--wake it and it will cost you. When she's dreaming about waking the dragon, one way to read those images is she keeps seeing the cost of it. Of embracing the inner beast--maybe.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

And yes, with Sandor and Sansa she opens the doors for him to get in touch with the man, rather than that she becomes a beast. His teachings do help her get a far more realistic expectation about knights.

Plus he gets help from the horror of the KG beating her. And, even as she thinks Sandor's horrible, Sansa wishes Dontos had some of the Hound's ferocity. Seems like she's redefined her ideal of the true knight: has the ideals plus the will and strength to carry them out.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Yeah, it goes without saying. But Arya only needs his protection and help once he takes her. She was safe with the BwB. She wasn't rambling about on her own. In fact, while she ran out of the stable into the rain when she realized her mother and brother wouldn't be at RR and the Blackfish was someone the BwB feared to approach, she wasn't intent on running away from them. She said so, believing the person who grabbed her to be BwB, but then it turned out to be Sandor.

True--but Arya needs help from sworn fighters from the start: Syria, former First Sword of Braavos; Yoren, black brother; and Beric. I just meant the pattern--these girls get and need help from sworn fighters. Who aren't perfect, but do help. 

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, the bloodied white cloak certainly evokes the image of deflowering. Le Cigne makes a convincing connectiong to the "tearing" of the cloak as the taking of that maidenhood. But it can also be seen as a type of divorce, from the KG and from Sansa by Sandor.

I agree with the ideas above. Just also think it's a clue re: the Kingsguard under Aerys' Wildfire Governance. That fire breaks the otherwise "loyal" dog. And we know it broke Jaime, too. Given the imagery of the stained cloak with blood AND fire--something's up.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The ideal of the true knight is important. Jaime does have his dream where the KG ghosts and Rhaegar remind him of the "children". And the verse of the Warrior of the song of the Seven clearly declares that the warrior's purose is to protect and guard the children. The killing and fighting is not the goal itself. It's what Gendry is doing at the orphan's inn, and why I always say that he's not a smith alone (who 'builds' for the children). Gendry has the skill of a craftsman, but it's not the purpose he chases, not even when he's with Tobho. He didn't even want to sell his craft (the helm).

It's not the ideal of the true knight that is problematic or that Sansa needs to wake up from. It's the belief that all knights by definition are true knights that is false. That's the illusion. And it's not a realistic expectation of everyone.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

With the primal fear for fire, I do mean to imply that his own experience makes his fear for fire extremely primal. I just have to imagine the months it would have taken to heal from those burning wounds and the agony he was in.

But I do like the connection you make with Jaime there: a king using fire as his champion or weapon is a coward.

Agree re: the primal fear. Gregor is truly a monster in these books from the start.

The repeat of the wildfire as being the one thing that breaks the loyal-to-the-point-of-hacking-Mycah-to-death Hound--seems like an echo of Aerys. Wildfire doing the fighting while Joff hides. And the Hound, for deeply personal reasons, can't take it. 

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The ideal was not really possible here. First of all, it was the Tyroshi who refused to deliver Arya to RR without going to Beric with her first. Beric set out immediately to RR with her then, fighting the Bloody Mummers along the way. Even if he had no intention of asking a ransom, the same thing would have happened. Cat and Robb would have already left for the Twins. But it's true that Beric makes a compromise here: get her back to her mother, but for a price for food, horses and arms. But he's got no intention to sell her to the highest bidder either. He attempts to make a win-win out of it, and he fails. Even the man closest to the ideal has to deal with reality: feed people, protect people, hunt Bloody Mummers and get a child back to her mother. And he did say that if her mother didn't want her back, he'd get her to safe home anyway, if must needs be his own Blackhaven. 

The bolded may be the whole point--can the ideal even be fully possible? And I agree re: Beric's position. For an undead man who's continually losing parts of himself, he's doing really well.

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually, I think Sandor has a better chance at it than Jaime. I'm not pleased with Jaime all that much, not even with sending Brienne to do his job really. He should have been searching for Sansa and/or Arya. Cat hadn't ordered Brienne to find her daughters, but to deliver Jaime back to KL and for Jaime to get her daughters back. And then there's the siege against RR.

Yes--this is another way Jaime seems to echo Rhaegar--he's not just a sworn knight. He's tied to that Targaryen wannabe family--Mad Queen Sister, Mad King Son, and ambitious, autocratic father. He's spent a lot of time trying to do what he wants AND please them and still believe in some ideals. 

Sending Brienne vs. going with--seems like another type of compromise. He wants to stay with his son and fix the Kingsguard he feels guilty for corrupting. Trying to do too many things at once to keep the family in power and hopefully more humane--not sure Jaime can pull this off. 

Rhaegar was willing to leave Jaime with Aerys to keep daddy steady. Not too surprising--but we thus know Rhaegar is actively trying to manage things. And he does leave his family there, too--I wish we had that conversation: "You're holding your GRANDCHILDREN as LEVERAGE!!!! No Father's Day gift for you, Dad!"

But we know Rhaegar did leave his family there--how much "duress" was applied? We don't know--but Rhaegar did it. 

So--if my mad hypothesis holds and Rhaegar and Arthur got Lyanna away form Aerys, did Rhaegar go with them? Or did he just send them as Jaime does so that he (Rhaegar) would be free to manage the family--and raise the Dornish host?

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

We don't know. We only know he swore a vow.

Yup. We need more data.

Hmmm. . . we need a ticking clock emoji.

[sweetsunray]

Just wanted to add this link of the first Bear-Maiden essay I made on Sansa. It does not delve yet into the knight-beast-prince stuff, but just the sexual maturation of Sansa and her fantasy world. I had to separate it thematically, because it's just too big otherwise. I have a lot already for the second essay, but I've been working on this since late November, and I'm letting the second one rest for a while. There also will be a third essay regarding the "bear cub" references, which I now think is a grooming reference. I'm working on a new chthonic essay though for the moment.

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.wordpress.com/2016/02/09/the-beasts-kiss-sansas-sexual-maturation/