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All dead characters will return??


Ser Didymus

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On 20/01/2016 at 11:04 AM, Lowly Crow said:

Othor and Jafer were already wights when they were found by Ghost and the Night's Watch. There are two passages that point to this in GoT, Jon Ch. 52

 

“Othor,” announced Ser Jaremy Rykker, “beyond a doubt. And this one was Jafer Flowers.” He turned the corpse over with his foot, and the dead white face stared up at the overcast sky with blue, blue eyes.

and a few pages later...

Dywen sucked at his wooden teeth. “Might be they didn’t die here. Might be someone brought ‘ern and left ‘ern for us. A warning, as like.” The old forester peered down suspiciously. “And might be I’m a fool, but I don’t know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore.”
Ser Jaremy looked startled. “Neither did Flowers,” he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man. -
GOT, Jon Ch. 52 (Emphasis mine)

There is a good discussion about this in Heresy 99 that begins about halfway down the first page. One of the more interesting quotes from that thread is from aDancewithFlagons:

 

This tallies with why they fear a very harsh winter so much because the wights seem to somehow thrive in cold weather

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2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

lol yes (re tv); the Targs and the followers of the Lord of Light though although they make their own undead, like Beric and Cat and yet I get the feeling that they counter-act each other in nature somehow.  Sorry, probably didn't express myself very well here but the thing about Ice and Fire being like the whole essence of the entire series; I wonder if one type of undead can kill the other... and this would tally with Mel's ranting on the Night being dark and full of terrors and this "other god" they won't name (Master of the Wights???)  I have to admit though that I haven't read any other books besides the Song of Ice and Fire so not sure if there are clues elsewhere in Martin's work.

Wow.   1st reply I've been able to make all week.   Thanks Morgana, I find myself trying to tally up those things exclusively Fire as opposed to those exclusively Ice and still find imbalance, though I think it makes absolute sense that one should be able to counteract the other.   Look here Young Lady, you get AWOIAF pronto.   It didn't really help me illuminate the way back story, but as I've said there are LEGIONS of folks who did find it.   Go see some of LmL's stuff--fascinating and well supported by the clues he's found in all the books.    It's good stuff.   And ignore that "reply" box at the top.   When I clicked on Reply it took me straight to a box that wanted "CODE" so I typed reply there.  Snark and grumpkins at the helm of the forum right now I reckon.

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41 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

reply 

 

Wow.   1st reply I've been able to make all week.   Thanks Morgana, I find myself trying to tally up those things exclusively Fire as opposed to those exclusively Ice and still find imbalance, though I think it makes absolute sense that one should be able to counteract the other.   Look here Young Lady, you get AWOIAF pronto.   It didn't really help me illuminate the way back story, but as I've said there are LEGIONS of folks who did find it.   Go see some of LmL's stuff--fascinating and well supported by the clues he's found in all the books.    It's good stuff.   And ignore that "reply" box at the top.   When I clicked on Reply it took me straight to a box that wanted "CODE" so I typed reply there.  Snark and grumpkins at the helm of the forum right now I reckon.

Glad to hear that you found my answer a little useful.  Did you read my other replies in this thread too?  I think I might have stumbled upon something which tallies with all the religions in terms of Cat being hard to resurrect because she was drowned and a possible connection with the Drowned God and references to the Summer and Winter Courts of Fairy etc.  Now, forgive my ignorance but what is LmL?:blink: 

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16 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Glad to hear that you found my answer a little useful.  Did you read my other replies in this thread too?  I think I might have stumbled upon something which tallies with all the religions in terms of Cat being hard to resurrect because she was drowned and a possible connection with the Drowned God and references to the Summer and Winter Courts of Fairy etc.  Now, forgive my ignorance but what is LmL?:blink: 

Sorry, I forget what it is not to be acquainted with the forum legends.   Lucifer Means Lightbringer or LmL.   He's got tons of just well gorgeous essays on what caused the Long Night and imbalances.   He's got a new podcast, too.  TBH I was just catching up on replies and haven't had a chance to go through all but I promise I'll get caught up as soon as I get caught up!   Trade intel then, what is Winter Courts of Fairy?

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6 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Sorry, I forget what it is not to be acquainted with the forum legends.   Lucifer Means Lightbringer or LmL.   He's got tons of just well gorgeous essays on what caused the Long Night and imbalances.   He's got a new podcast, too.  TBH I was just catching up on replies and haven't had a chance to go through all but I promise I'll get caught up as soon as I get caught up!   Trade intel then, what is Winter Courts of Fairy?

Thank you, will check it out.  Well, in fairy folk lore there is a Queen of Winter and a Queen of Summer and they regulate the seasons and oppose each other.  However the existence and equal power of both Courts is paramount to the continuity of the seasons.  People tend to see summer fairies as more benevolent but if not for the dead that winter causes the planet would be overrun with vegetation and what not, say, so they both complement each other.  This is just a bit of a long shot because George hasn't mentioned fairies at all but he says that he takes inspiration from a large variety of sources and I can see this god of Light and Fire -v- the Ice and the Others on a parallel with this but that could be me reading too much into this because I am very fond of fairy lore lol

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6 hours ago, Aegonzo The Great said:

 

I do remember this, but the question becomes, if they were already wights, why weren't they up walking around like other wights? Were they just "playing dead"? (Har!)  Were they waiting for the darkness and cold? Why have we not seen other wights acting like this?

 

'Activated' by the cold seems to be the best explanation thus far. Whether it was the actually the cold or the White Walkers who brought the cold with them (in their vicinity) and in turn activated them remains unanswered. We may never know. HOWEVA, the fact that Othor went for the Lord Commander specifically does indicate a certain intelligence. Maybe it's not out of the question that they were 'playing dead' :smug: in order for the NW to take them to the other side of the wall since they could not willingly go south of the wall themselves. 

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5 hours ago, Lord Spark of House Spark said:

Are there any Wights in the books that weren't killed by other wights or white walkers?

I know that everyone North of the wall burns their dead, but that could be a "better safe than sorry" policy.

In that same chapter (GoT, Jon 52) there is some discussion about the wounds suffered by Jafer and who might have made them

 

A great gash in the side of the corpse’s neck opened like a mouth, crusted with dried blood. Only a few ropes of pale tendon still attached the head to the neck. “This was done with an axe.”
“Aye,” muttered Dywen, the old forester. “Belike the axe that Othor carried, m’lord.”
Jon could feel his breakfast churning in his belly, but he pressed his lips together and made himself look at the second body. Othor had been a big ugly man, and he made a big ugly corpse. No axe was in evidence. Jon remembered Othor; he had been the one bellowing the bawdy song as the rangers rode out. His singing days were done. His flesh was blanched white as milk, everywhere but his hands. His hands were black like Jafer’s. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.
Ser Jaremy stood. “The wildlings have axes too.”
-GoT, Jon 52 (emphasis mine)

 

There is no way to tell who killed them, be it wildlings, rangers, or wights but the wounds indicate that it was not made by the weapons that we have seen carried by the White Walkers (ice blades). This would lead us to believe that they were killed by something other than a WW but they would then have been turned into a wight by the WW. It seems it is possible. 

As to why the WW don't/can't turn any and all dead things, I would assume they would have to know that there is a dead body somewhere in order to turn it. That they can't just sense where these dead things are located at any time. In addition, maybe fresh corpses are necessary to function before rigor mortis sets in and immobilizes the bodies. Just a thought. 

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2 hours ago, Lowly Crow said:

In that same chapter (GoT, Jon 52) there is some discussion about the wounds suffered by Jafer and who might have made them

 

A great gash in the side of the corpse’s neck opened like a mouth, crusted with dried blood. Only a few ropes of pale tendon still attached the head to the neck. “This was done with an axe.”
“Aye,” muttered Dywen, the old forester. “Belike the axe that Othor carried, m’lord.”
Jon could feel his breakfast churning in his belly, but he pressed his lips together and made himself look at the second body. Othor had been a big ugly man, and he made a big ugly corpse. No axe was in evidence. Jon remembered Othor; he had been the one bellowing the bawdy song as the rangers rode out. His singing days were done. His flesh was blanched white as milk, everywhere but his hands. His hands were black like Jafer’s. Blossoms of hard cracked blood decorated the mortal wounds that covered him like a rash, breast and groin and throat. Yet his eyes were still open. They stared up at the sky, blue as sapphires.
Ser Jaremy stood. “The wildlings have axes too.”
-GoT, Jon 52 (emphasis mine)

 

There is no way to tell who killed them, be it wildlings, rangers, or wights but the wounds indicate that it was not made by the weapons that we have seen carried by the White Walkers (ice blades). This would lead us to believe that they were killed by something other than a WW but they would then have been turned into a wight by the WW. It seems it is possible. 

As to why the WW don't/can't turn any and all dead things, I would assume they would have to know that there is a dead body somewhere in order to turn it. That they can't just sense where these dead things are located at any time. In addition, maybe fresh corpses are necessary to function before rigor mortis sets in and immobilizes the bodies. Just a thought. 

Okay, this seems to clearly hint that the white walkers don't have to be the original cause of death.  Something on the lines of warging the dead bodies would make sense too...

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22 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

A)  You could be onto something here

B ) Good point

C) Indeed but these are a different type.  "Me thinks" that the Wights have something to do with that god of darkness Mel & Co won't dare name and the other ones clearly are connected to Mel's god and both seem to be in eternal opposition which I find in a round about way reminiscent of the Fae Courts of Winter and Summer in folk culture.  This category seem to be time-sensitive given that Cat had been drowned and left there for 3 days and was almost unresurrectable.  Now, another thing, drowning them for long enough might prevent this; hence the Drowned God cult.

Now, let me see; possible parallel here with the 4 elements:  fire, water, air and earth.  Not sure about earth but let's see:  the ones from the fire god are prevented with water; the ones from the god of kind of frozen water (ice) are counteracted by fire... I think this means something guys ;)

Now, we have the added complication of people like Qyburn and our mystery Ser Robert Strong who would appear to possibly be a third type, more a la Frankenstein...

So, I wrote a pretty involved essay on this at one point, but here a quick list of people who have been resurrected, reborn, reanimated, or magically transformed in ASOIAF:

  1. Wights – They are definitely corpses. They have black hand, thus no circulation. They don't breath. They have bright blue eyes.
  2. Cold Hands – He isdefinitely a corpse. He has black hands, thus no circulation,. He is not breathing. He has no blue eyes.
  3. Frankengregor – He is Qyburn's Frankenstein monster created from the dying body of Gregor Clegain. He does not speak or eat. He may or may not have is original head
  4. Beric Dondarrion – He really is not corpse like. He has circulating blood, albeit black and smoking blood. He does not eat or sleep
  5. Lady Stoneheart – ditto
  6. Melisandre – We don't know that she has ever died, but . . . she has black and smoking blood like Beric and does not eat or sleep
  7. Moqorro – We don't know that he has ever died, but . . . he is a Red priest like Mel and apparently survived three days at sea without eating food or drinking water.
  8. Victarion – It is not clear that he died. I don't think he did, but Moqorro heals his hand with fire and now his hand is burnt and smokes occasionally and is stronger than it was before.
  9. Craster's Children – taken by the Others and turned into Others, according to Craster's wives
  10. Children Afflicted by Greyscale – not dead according to anyone but Val, permanently scarred with stoney skin
  11. The Stonemen – adults afflicted by greyscale who are slowly transformed into stone, while they slowly die and loose their minds
  12. The Shrouded Lord – He was possibly a statue transformed into a human by the ice cold kiss of the Grey Woman
  13. The Damphairs – All the most devout Iron Born get baptized by being drowned in seawater and being given CPR to bring them back to life
  14. Patchface – He is lost in Shipbreaker Bay before washing up on shore after three days. Locals believe he was taught to breath water by mermaids in exchange for his seed. No he gives all the best incoherent prophecies
  15. Davos – Okay, I don't think he actually drowned, so this one may be just symbolic, but the symbolism of him falling into a hellmouth, washing up on the Merling Kings Spears and being stranded for three days is pretty clear. He return with a religious fervor that he must kill Melisandre to avenge the casting down of the Seven.
  16. The Gravedigger- Okay, again, this is probably just symbolic. Arya left him for dead, but it is likely he was saved by the Elder Brother before he died, or was this a miracle of the Seven. Clearly, it isn't outside of the scope of possibility.

It's kInd of crazy, yeah? It is tempting to get hung up on the elements. We have ice, fire, stone, and water represented. I think a better way of looking at is that these oppositions are entirely in the heads of humans. Before the Long Night in the myths of Yi Ti the Lion of Night (Yin) and the Maiden Maid of Light (Yang) are coupled, not in opposition. After the Long Night, humans develop religions where these forces are in conflict. I don't think fire magic and ice magic care a bit about each other. It is transformed humans that use these magics like the Red Priests and the Others who care about seeing one dominant over each other.

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11 minutes ago, Durran Durrandon said:

So, I wrote a pretty involved essay on this at one point, but here a quick list of people who have been resurrected, reborn, reanimated, or magically transformed in ASOIAF:

  1. Wights – They are definitely corpses. They have black hand, thus no circulation. They don't breath. They have bright blue eyes.
  2. Cold Hands – He isdefinitely a corpse. He has black hands, thus no circulation,. He is not breathing. He has no blue eyes.
  3. Frankengregor – He is Qyburn's Frankenstein monster created from the dying body of Gregor Clegain. He does not speak or eat. He may or may not have is original head
  4. Beric Dondarrion – He really is not corpse like. He has circulating blood, albeit black and smoking blood. He does not eat or sleep
  5. Lady Stoneheart – ditto
  6. Melisandre – We don't know that she has ever died, but . . . she has black and smoking blood like Beric and does not eat or sleep
  7. Moqorro – We don't know that he has ever died, but . . . he is a Red priest like Mel and apparently survived three days at sea without eating food or drinking water.
  8. Victarion – It is not clear that he died. I don't think he did, but Moqorro heals his hand with fire and now his hand is burnt and smokes occasionally and is stronger than it was before.
  9. Craster's Children – taken by the Others and turned into Others, according to Craster's wives
  10. Children Afflicted by Greyscale – not dead according to anyone but Val, permanently scarred with stoney skin
  11. The Stonemen – adults afflicted by greyscale who are slowly transformed into stone, while they slowly die and loose their minds
  12. The Shrouded Lord – He was possibly a statue transformed into a human by the ice cold kiss of the Grey Woman
  13. The Damphairs – All the most devout Iron Born get baptized by being drowned in seawater and being given CPR to bring them back to life
  14. Patchface – He is lost in Shipbreaker Bay before washing up on shore after three days. Locals believe he was taught to breath water by mermaids in exchange for his seed. No he gives all the best incoherent prophecies
  15. Davos – Okay, I don't think he actually drowned, so this one may be just symbolic, but the symbolism of him falling into a hellmouth, washing up on the Merling Kings Spears and being stranded for three days is pretty clear. He return with a religious fervor that he must kill Melisandre to avenge the casting down of the Seven.
  16. The Gravedigger- Okay, again, this is probably just symbolic. Arya left him for dead, but it is likely he was saved by the Elder Brother before he died, or was this a miracle of the Seven. Clearly, it isn't outside of the scope of possibility.

It's kInd of crazy, yeah? It is tempting to get hung up on the elements. We have ice, fire, stone, and water represented. I think a better way of looking at is that these oppositions are entirely in the heads of humans. Before the Long Night in the myths of Yi Ti the Lion of Night (Yin) and the Maiden Maid of Light (Yang) are coupled, not in opposition. After the Long Night, humans develop religions where these forces are in conflict. I don't think fire magic and ice magic care a bit about each other. It is transformed humans that use these magics like the Red Priests and the Others who care about seeing one dominant over each other.

Oh, thank you for all this info - very useful :)

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 3:59 PM, Lord Spark of House Spark said:

Are there any Wights in the books that weren't killed by other wights or white walkers?

I know that everyone North of the wall burns their dead, but that could be a "better safe than sorry" policy.

We only think we know who killed Coldhands.  Truth is, "they" could be anyone.    There were 2 threads going simultaneously when the forum underwent it's update--both regarded Jon's potential revival, one as a zombie and the other addressed the fascinating topic of warged wargs. Since then much discussion's been had over both outcomes for Jon.   In the case of Coldhands if he was a warg who simply warged another human (with warg abilities) and waited for his body to become safe to resume it all becomes very fascinating. 

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On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 4:25 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

A)  You could be onto something here

B ) Good point

C) Indeed but these are a different type.  "Me thinks" that the Wights have something to do with that god of darkness Mel & Co won't dare name and the other ones clearly are connected to Mel's god and both seem to be in eternal opposition which I find in a round about way reminiscent of the Fae Courts of Winter and Summer in folk culture.  This category seem to be time-sensitive given that Cat had been drowned and left there for 3 days and was almost unresurrectable.  Now, another thing, drowning them for long enough might prevent this; hence the Drowned God cult.

Now, let me see; possible parallel here with the 4 elements:  fire, water, air and earth.  Not sure about earth but let's see:  the ones from the fire god are prevented with water; the ones from the god of kind of frozen water (ice) are counteracted by fire... I think this means something guys ;)

Now, we have the added complication of people like Qyburn and our mystery Ser Robert Strong who would appear to possibly be a third type, more a la Frankenstein...

Almost caught up--amazing how being stuck in bed with the flu allows one to get things done,   Upthread you mentioned something along the lines of Mel being in opposition to a god that cannot be named.   I wonder if The Great Other really is the name of this deity and The Others really are called exactly that, perhaps Rh'llor was created in the immediate aftermath if not during The Long Night.  We are told in the World Book that The Long Night was indeed a global catastrophe.  It is seeming to me that The Lands of Always Winter may very well just be the point of origin for the Others' invasion of the entire world.  If not then all Planetos better start quaking in their boots. 

Surely your ideas about opposites and complimentary elements are correct.   This entire story is filled with parallels and diametrically opposed factions...even history repeating.  Funny when you read AGOT you are lead to believe The Starks are the opposite of The Lannisters--of course then you realize the Lannisters just suck and the Targs are actually the opposite of the Starks.   Your addition of The Drowned God directly to the conflict between Rh'llor and The Others rather focuses the entire reason for these extraneous deities.  Did I follow you to indicate that TDG is in cahoots with Rh'llor?    Do the Seven enter into this on either side? 

Certainly the power to give life after death is more common or widespread at least, than we usually reckon.   The warlocks are sort of undead, right?  We have dragons hatched from 150+ years old eggs, multiple characters surviving wrecks at sea (Moqorro, Patchface & Davos), Faceless Men experiencing the memories of the skins they take on, and whatever Coldhands is.  It's all lining up and I"m hoping we get a better understanding of at least the afterlife according to the tenants of Ice and Fire if not all of them. 

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19 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Almost caught up--amazing how being stuck in bed with the flu allows one to get things done,   Upthread you mentioned something along the lines of Mel being in opposition to a god that cannot be named.   I wonder if The Great Other really is the name of this deity and The Others really are called exactly that, perhaps Rh'llor was created in the immediate aftermath if not during The Long Night.  We are told in the World Book that The Long Night was indeed a global catastrophe.  It is seeming to me that The Lands of Always Winter may very well just be the point of origin for the Others' invasion of the entire world.  If not then all Planetos better start quaking in their boots. 

Surely your ideas about opposites and complimentary elements are correct.   This entire story is filled with parallels and diametrically opposed factions...even history repeating.  Funny when you read AGOT you are lead to believe The Starks are the opposite of The Lannisters--of course then you realize the Lannisters just suck and the Targs are actually the opposite of the Starks.   Your addition of The Drowned God directly to the conflict between Rh'llor and The Others rather focuses the entire reason for these extraneous deities.  Did I follow you to indicate that TDG is in cahoots with Rh'llor?    Do the Seven enter into this on either side? 

Certainly the power to give life after death is more common or widespread at least, than we usually reckon.   The warlocks are sort of undead, right?  We have dragons hatched from 150+ years old eggs, multiple characters surviving wrecks at sea (Moqorro, Patchface & Davos), Faceless Men experiencing the memories of the skins they take on, and whatever Coldhands is.  It's all lining up and I"m hoping we get a better understanding of at least the afterlife according to the tenants of Ice and Fire if not all of them. 

I hope you are over the flu now and thanks so much for your reply.

I haven't had a chance to read th World of Ice and Fire yet (on my "to do" list) but yes, it seems clear to me that ice and fire and their respective gods and beings are in opposition.  What you say makes sense.  Now, as for other deities, it never crossed my mind (until now) to see them as factions which can ally or oppose other gods or sets of gods, but why not.  My comments re the Drowned god resulted from my observation following Catelyn's death that the fact that her corpse had been drowned made it harder for Beric to resurrect her.  Now, this also tallies with the Riverlands funerals where they take two insurance policies and burn and drown their dead lol  So I gather that people in the old days figured this one out and hence their cults and funeral rituals.  Now as for the Seven, no idea just yet in terms of whether they are more ice or more fire but food for thought indeed.  Maybe someone else has thoughts on this :)

Indeed yes we are seeing more and more supernatural happenings as the series progresses which will of course culminate in the final showdown.

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