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Euron's Plan and Why it has Failed

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On 8/24/2016 at 4:56 PM, maestergnothis said:

The caveat that "no mortal man should sound me and live..." suggests that someone who is not mortal could blow it and live. John Snow might fit that description (or Lady Stoneheart). Why else would GRRM include that?

Mellisandre also implies that she is not "mortal" in her chapter in DwD.

Quote

Food. Yes, I should eat. Some days she forgot. R'hllor provided her with all the nourishment her body needed, but that was something best concealed from mortal men.

Not saying it is related, could be. Or not... Just interesting to note.

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About this issue: I actually would love it if Euron's horn plan failed because of Moqorro since it makes one of my own theories about Euron more likely.

However, I must point out that GRRM has clearly established a possible scenario where despite Moqorro's best efforts, the horn may still be bound to Euron or be unbound to anyone.  In the Victarion I preview chapter (you can find it here) the sequence of events is Moqorro gets kicked out and leaves the horn, Euron has the dusky woman bleed him, Victarion rubs his bloody hand and mutters to the horn, fingerbangs the dusky woman, and then goes off to war.  

Since the dusky woman is the most likely culprit for Victarion's poisoning, it's likely that she remains a Euron agent and it's possible she may have done something during the process (or have done/will do something offscreen) to screw up the rebinding.  Additionally, Moqorro may have secretly wanted this all along -- perhaps the horn isn't bound to anyone at this point.  

Edited by nategator

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I would like to go deeper into the function of the horn. From Moqorro in ADWD (Victarion I) we get a translation of the Valyrian glyphs on the bands running around the horn.

On one band it says: "I am Dragonbinder".

On another band it says "No mortal man shall sound me and live."

From its description we know, there must be at least three bands: "A twisted Thing it was, six feet long from end to end, gleaming black and banded with red gold and dark Valyrian steel. [..] Strange sorcerous writings had been cut into the bands that girded it."

I think it is possible, that at least one inscription has not been translated yet. I take "banded with red gold and dark Valyrian steel" as the indication of three different coloured bands.

(Due to the missing comma between red and gold, it could of course also be only two bands, one red-gold, the other black).

Whether on purpose or because Moqorro could not read it (maybe this description is only visible when the horn is blown).

More things that make me doubt, that Victarion is aware of the true consequences of the horn being blown:

- ADWD Victarion I: "Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron's gifts are always poisened."

- ADWD Victarion I: Victarion asks Moqorro: "What do they say?" [meaning the Valyrian glyphs] Moqorro answers:  "Much and more."

   I know "Much and more" is an often used Reply in ASOIAF, but "Much and more" sounds to me - well, just more than the two short

   translations given.

- According to http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragonbinder "Dragonbinder is brought to the kingsmoot by Euron Greyjoy when the ironborn elect a new King of the Isles and the North. Euron claims to have sailed the Smoking Sea and found it amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria.[4] According to a semi-canon source, however, Euron took it from four warlocks from Qarth whose ship he seized when they went in search of Daenerys Targaryen after the destruction of their House of the Undying".  If the horn would be so easy and safe to use, why didthe warlocks not use it to control the Dragons?

- Euron at the Kingsmoot (AFFC, The Drowned Man): "That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me. You heard its call, and felt its power. It is a dragon horn, bound with bands of red gold and Valyrian steel graven with enchantments. The dragonlords of old sounded such horns, before the Doom devoured them. With this horn, ironmen, I can bind dragons to my will".

   I am tempted to interpret that the horn was blown just before the Doom and maybe has caused the Doom.

It has already been mentioned before: What if the function of the horn is in reality not in agreement to the glyphs (or what of the glyphs has been translated), but a complete disaster, like the dragons going completely mad or even attacking the one blowing the horn (or who the horn is bound to)?

Edited by Greywater-Watch

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8 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I would like to go deeper into the function of the horn. From Moqorro in ADWD (Victarion I) we get a translation of the Valyrian glyphs on the bands running around the horn.

On one band it says: "I am Dragonbinder".

On another band it says "No mortal man shall sound me and live."

From its description we know, there must be at least three bands: "A twisted Thing it was, six feet long from end to end, gleaming black and banded with red gold and dark Valyrian steel. [..] Strange sorcerous writings had been cut into the bands that girded it."

I think it is possible, that at least one inscription has not been translated yet. I take "banded with red gold and dark Valyrian steel" as the indication of three different coloured bands.

(Due to the missing comma between red and gold, it could of course also be only two bands, one red-gold, the other black).

Whether on purpose or because Moqorro could not read it (maybe this description is only visible when the horn is blown).

More things that make me doubt, that Victarion is aware of the true consequences of the horn being blown:

- ADWD Victarion I: "Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron's gifts are always poisened."

- ADWD Victarion I: Victarion asks Moqorro: "What do they say?" [meaning the Valyrian glyphs] Moqorro answers:  "Much and more."

   I know "Much and more" is an often used Reply in ASOIAF, but "Much and more" sounds to me - well, just more than the two short

   translations given.

- According to http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dragonbinder "Dragonbinder is brought to the kingsmoot by Euron Greyjoy when the ironborn elect a new King of the Isles and the North. Euron claims to have sailed the Smoking Sea and found it amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria.[4] According to a semi-canon source, however, Euron took it from four warlocks from Qarth whose ship he seized when they went in search of Daenerys Targaryen after the destruction of their House of the Undying".  If the horn would be so easy and safe to use, why didthe warlocks not use it to control the Dragons?

- Euron at the Kingsmoot (AFFC, The Drowned Man): "That horn you heard I found amongst the smoking ruins that were Valyria, where no man has dared to walk but me. You heard its call, and felt its power. It is a dragon horn, bound with bands of red gold and Valyrian steel graven with enchantments. The dragonlords of old sounded such horns, before the Doom devoured them. With this horn, ironmen, I can bind dragons to my will".

   I am tempted to interpret that the horn was blown just before the Doom and maybe has caused the Doom.

It has already been mentioned before: What if the function of the horn is in reality not in agreement to the glyphs (or what of the glyphs has been translated), but a complete disaster, like the dragons going completely mad or even attacking the one blowing the horn (or who the horn is bound to)?

Red gold is a gold and copper alloy. So probably only the two bands.

Edited by bent branch

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I feel that people tend to neglect thinking that Victarion has Dragonbinder and he is the closest one to Meereen. He knows that blowing the horn will kill him, so why would he blow it? And how would he be able to get another person to blow it for him? It would have to be someone someone who doesn't know that blowing the horn will kill the person.

I also read in another thread that maybe Euron is going to Oldtown to go to the Citadel to get scrolls on dragonlore, but I personally think that Marwyn has them; He works with Alleras and "Pate" and we can be certain that because he is an Arch Maester, he can easily enter the place where the scrolls are hidden and if I remember correctly, he is on his way to Meereen.

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21 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I feel that people tend to neglect thinking that Victarion has Dragonbinder and he is the closest one to Meereen. He knows that blowing the horn will kill him, so why would he blow it? And how would he be able to get another person to blow it for him? It would have to be someone someone who doesn't know that blowing the horn will kill the person.

I also read in another thread that maybe Euron is going to Oldtown to go to the Citadel to get scrolls on dragonlore, but I personally think that Marwyn has them; He works with Alleras and "Pate" and we can be certain that because he is an Arch Maester, he can easily enter the place where the scrolls are hidden and if I remember correctly, he is on his way to Meereen.

Victarion will simply order someone to blow the horn, he doesn't intend to do it himself. And they will blow that horn because they know what happens to people who disobey his orders.

 

In addition he can promise them their freedom for blowing the horn.

He is experimenting with slaves - and that way he has already found out that blowing the horn once has no strong averse effects for the blower, while blowing it twice will lead to bleeding lungs. And that blowing the horn repeatedly will indeed kill.

 

Marwyn may not have been able to take all books and scrolls containing the dragon lore with him. Lots of books would slow him down on his journey, he might even lose some irreplaceable texts on the way. Since he is well versed in dragon lore, I think it likely he left most of them behind.

Edited by Tini

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I like the idea that the horn will make the Dragons fly to Euron when they hear it.  That would certainly speed up the resolution of the entire Essos plotline.  Doesn't necessarily mean he will have them tamed, or controlled, just that hearing the sound of the horn makes them seek him out wherever he is in the world.  

Tyrion, Vic, Dany, everyone would immediately haul ass Westward trying to recover those dragons in this scenario instead of pissing around in Meereen the entire book.  That would be wonderful.  Inject some momentum into this story again.  

This line from The Forsaken chapter gives me hope that this is exactly what happens:

Quote

Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him.

 Euron doesn't have to hunt down Dany in this scenario, she (and Tyrion and Vic) will come to him.  

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Why give Euron dragonbinder , Warlocks and valyrian steel Armor if he will loose against the Redwynes? Why give Aeron visions about Euron sitting the IT if he is going to loose against the Redwynes ?

Seems pretty obvious to mee that Euron will suceed in Oldtown and will continue cause chaos until some one ? 

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 10:16 AM, Vaedys Targaryen said:

I feel that people tend to neglect thinking that Victarion has Dragonbinder and he is the closest one to Meereen. He knows that blowing the horn will kill him, so why would he blow it? And how would he be able to get another person to blow it for him? It would have to be someone someone who doesn't know that blowing the horn will kill the person.

I also read in another thread that maybe Euron is going to Oldtown to go to the Citadel to get scrolls on dragonlore, but I personally think that Marwyn has them; He works with Alleras and "Pate" and we can be certain that because he is an Arch Maester, he can easily enter the place where the scrolls are hidden and if I remember correctly, he is on his way to Meereen.

 

On ‎10‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 7:40 AM, Tini said:

Victarion will simply order someone to blow the horn, he doesn't intend to do it himself. And they will blow that horn because they know what happens to people who disobey his orders.

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In addition he can promise them their freedom for blowing the horn.

He is experimenting with slaves - and that way he has already found out that blowing the horn once has no strong averse effects for the blower, while blowing it twice will lead to bleeding lungs. And that blowing the horn repeatedly will indeed kill.

 

Marwyn may not have been able to take all books and scrolls containing the dragon lore with him. Lots of books would slow him down on his journey, he might even lose some irreplaceable texts on the way. Since he is well versed in dragon lore, I think it likely he left most of them behind.

This is the winds sub forum, so all sample chapter info is valid here.  We already know that he gets 3 ironborn to agree to blow the horn by lying to them and promising them each to become captain of their own ship.  He tells them that the man who blew the horn at the kingsmoot blew it 3 times(the lie), but each of them will only blow it once, so they may die or they may not, but that their chances were no worse than anyone else who was going to be fighting in the upcoming battle, but that no one else will become a captain as a reward.

He also seems to be under the impression that claiming the horn by blood merely means smearing his blood on the horn, which I think most people would agree is nonsense.  He also intends to have the dusky woman do it instead of Moqorro.

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On January 15, 2016 at 0:10 AM, The Drunkard said:

I don't think he'll lose against the Redwyne fleet. While it certainly seems that way, with the Redwyne fleet being insanely overpowered and the Iron Fleet being sent away, Euron is too smart to put himself into that bad a position without a plan. He has captive warlocks and various magical artifacts at his disposal, and twice so far he's benefited from drastic weather changes (the storm that disguised Balon's assassination, and the super fast winds that allowed him to reach the Shield Islands in record time). I imagine he'll be using weather magic again to destroy/scatter the Redwyne fleet, at which point he'll be the only major naval power in the south, and a much more dangerous enemy for Aegon/Dany/whoever.

I'm not sure about whether or not he'll get a dragon, even if his attempt with Victarion fails.

This has to be true. Euron's character is pointless otherwise. He HAS to not only beat the redwynes, but do something that asserts himself as king of the seas hopefully hurricane or kraken related.

Stannis already sent for sail sails, Aurane Waters stole the New Royal Fleet, and the redwynes are the Lannisters only sea strength capable of being serious in battle. (Although I could also see Tywin building an over-the-top fleet post-euron/Vic burning his fleet and not telling a soul) so yes I agree Euron has to dominate the seas 

 

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Euron's gifts are always poisoned -- meaning that they are not what the receiver thinks them to be.  

We already know what Dragonbinder does, and it does not bind Dragon's, it binds PEOPLE. 

My guess is that the Valyrians used Dragonbinder to control their slaves.  Euron uses Dragonbinder to bind the Kingsmoot attendees to his will (or the vast majority of them).  Even Aeron, who crowns Euron despite being dead set against him; even Victarian feels the pull of the Horn.  The spell lasts only until the man who blew the horn died.

[If the Warlocks had the Horn, this is why they didn't use it on Dany earlier -- she didn't have an army of Unsullied when the last crossed paths] 

On the Shields, at the feast, the Ironborn start questioning Euron's mad plans and Euron flees from the feast hall.  Practically, his first comment to Victarian is that the hornsounder died.  Why mention that?  It's not like Euron actually cares.  No, he mentions it because once the sounder dies, the impact of the Horn evaporates from the minds of the Ironborn and Euron just realized that this is what happened at the feast.

What happens when the Horn is sounded at the Battle of Fire in Mereen where two armies of slave soldiers are about to clash?  The Ironborn are pretty strong willed people to live where and how they do, so they don't become complete thralls, they just loose their good sense temporarily.  While the Unsullied are tough, they have been broken to slavery and the Yunkish slave soldiers are even more weak-willed.  Tyrion remarks on how easy it is to fall into the thinking of a slave...

Euron isn't going to steal a dragon, he's going to steal the Unsullied and maybe the Yunkish slave soldiers.  Dany's plan is to use the Unsullied to conquer Westeros.  Euron can do the same -- maybe more effectively because he has far fewer scruples. 

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9 minutes ago, Agravayne said:

Euron's gifts are always poisoned -- meaning that they are not what the receiver thinks them to be.  

We already know what Dragonbinder does, and it does not bind Dragon's, it binds PEOPLE. 

My guess is that the Valyrians used Dragonbinder to control their slaves.  Euron uses Dragonbinder to bind the Kingsmoot attendees to his will (or the vast majority of them).  Even Aeron, who crowns Euron despite being dead set against him; even Victarian feels the pull of the Horn.  The spell lasts only until the man who blew the horn died.

[If the Warlocks had the Horn, this is why they didn't use it on Dany earlier -- she didn't have an army of Unsullied when the last crossed paths] 

On the Shields, at the feast, the Ironborn start questioning Euron's mad plans and Euron flees from the feast hall.  Practically, his first comment to Victarian is that the hornsounder died.  Why mention that?  It's not like Euron actually cares.  No, he mentions it because once the sounder dies, the impact of the Horn evaporates from the minds of the Ironborn and Euron just realized that this is what happened at the feast.

What happens when the Horn is sounded at the Battle of Fire in Mereen where two armies of slave soldiers are about to clash?  The Ironborn are pretty strong willed people to live where and how they do, so they don't become complete thralls, they just loose their good sense temporarily.  While the Unsullied are tough, they have been broken to slavery and the Yunkish slave soldiers are even more weak-willed.  Tyrion remarks on how easy it is to fall into the thinking of a slave...

Euron isn't going to steal a dragon, he's going to steal the Unsullied and maybe the Yunkish slave soldiers.  Dany's plan is to use the Unsullied to conquer Westeros.  Euron can do the same -- maybe more effectively because he has far fewer scruples. 

The great problem with this theory is that the people must be binded to euron. Otherwise when victarion arrives he would overthrow euron...

In addition what is victarion supposed to do when he gets thousands of people obeying him? 

That theory only makes sense if euron sent victarion there to take over danny armies in meereen and use them to attack meereen while he steals a dragon or danny. This would emply that euron is working with the slavers which is kind of interesting.

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My two gold dragons on this one, whilst looking for another post lol

Okay, my apologies I haven't read the whole post although a good chunk of it.

Euron is on a quest to become a god, hence priests on the both etc.  By the way, anyone can disagree with me lol.  He is the most menacing villain we have seen so far... He considers Victarion, and anyone else, expendable... hence he gives him "that" horn.

Victarion is a fool who fancies the idea of being king consort, what with a brother like that!!!!, and said possibly joking, in passing that he would happily kill Dany's Ghiskari king.  If he dares do that, just to keep the peace in Mereen, either Barry or Tyrion (whoever is alive and in place in her absence) will have his head!  I can see little reason for Ser Barristan or Tyrion to back her king but defying the Queen by murdering her consort???

Yes, this involves accepting that they just don't overpower Mereen with horns or something but I would find it very unlikely.

Victarion is sure to fuck up.  Euron is sure to succeed and terrify but one myth that I think may, or may not come to pass, then there is something like "Icarus' Flight"  He was so well provided, so sure to be tantamount to a god, he flew too close to the Sun and hey!

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