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shizett

Can Varys's ADWD epilogue Speech be about Arya?

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I am not sure if this has been discussed before, but I just realized this speech can be about Arya as well.

This is the speech:

"Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them."

See?

- He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education: Syrio, and probably later in FM. Although she never gets a military education (as in strategies and tactics and all). So this part of her education is not complete.

- He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues: She got a noble girls education which included reading and writing, and is learning multiple languages in HoB&W.

- he has studied history and law and poetry: I am not sure about this one. I think she has studied History. There is no Law or Poetry in Westeros really, so I am not sure what GRRM means here.

- A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them: Arya comes from a union of two very religious people of two different religions (Faith of Seven and Old Gods) and is now learning about the God of Many Faces.

- He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands... He can fish and cook and bind up a wound: She does all of these living with Brusco and working in Harrenhal.

- swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need: "She stank so badly that she stripped right there...She swam until she felt clean…Some riders went past along the river road as Arya was washing her clothes, but if they saw the scrawny naked girl scrubbing her rags in the moonlight, they took no notice." (aGOT, ARYA III)

- he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid: She experience all of this during her Riverland adventures.

- Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them: She hasn't been taught this, but she instinctively has these in her as she has shown before.

 

I do not really have a point. It just surprised me how it fit her. I am also not sure about Arya's role in the story in general, and I thought maybe someone else noticed this too. I am wondering if GRRM actually meant this speech as a description of a good ruler, and it is a small point about Arya.

What do you think? 

 

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Good catch!

The books are filled with such "indirect descriptions."

This and refusals or warnings. When you read "I'll never do this", or "watch out that", it might be a foretelling.

The forums are filled with such "analyses." Har.

Off topic. What amazes me of this quote is that Varys tells it to a man he's about to kill. Still, he names the boy Aegon. It might be his name, but I doubt he's Rhaegar's son. If he were, why has Varys been messing with Viserys-Dany? Varys' plot is confusing.

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I don't know about arya but the speech fits mostly with what happened to dany ..

She can lead and plan a battle ..capable of speaking many languages  ....she knows not only about seven but gets to know about all sorts of culture and religion ...she can adapt to any new custom ...dany's dream when she was young was to be a Fisher woman ...

She knows what its to be hungry .,hunted and afraid since she spends most of her life as a begger running for life and abused by a brother ...

 

And as to that kingship is duty and a king must put people first and live and rule for them ....

" why the gods created kings andqueens  if not to protect those who can't by themselves " 

" a queen Belongs not to herself but to her people " 

" a queen should know her people's suffering" 

These are how dany views the queenship ...

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I don't know about arya but the speech fits mostly with what happened to dany ..

She can lead and plan a battle ..capable of speaking many languages  ....she knows not only about seven but gets to know about all sorts of culture and religion ...she can adapt to any new custom ...dany's dream when she was young was to be a Fisher woman ...

She knows what its to be hungry .,hunted and afraid since she spends most of her life as a begger running for life and abused by a brother ...

 

And as to that kingship is duty and a king must put people first and live and rule for them ....

" why the gods created kings and gods if not to protect those who can't by themselves " 

" a queen Belongs not to herself but to her people " 

" a queen should know her people's suffering" 

These are how dany views the queenship ...

True, and she's the Queeen of Mereen, and a khaleesi about to get a proper khalassar.

But you may thing of Jon as well. He's bled to reach his place. In fact he's all but dead. And we left him as the Lord Commander of the KG and the leader of the wildlings,

I guess Grrm means the quote directed to any of the real contenders to the IT, young people hardened by struggle who are going to sweep away the weak ones. I could sing it: "there's no place for the weak, no place for the weak." (an old Joy Division song, sorry)

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I don't know about arya but the speech fits mostly with what happened to dany ..

She can lead and plan a battle ..capable of speaking many languages  ....she knows not only about seven but gets to know about all sorts of culture and religion ...she can adapt to any new custom ...dany's dream when she was young was to be a Fisher woman ...

She knows what its to be hungry .,hunted and afraid since she spends most of her life as a begger running for life and abused by a brother ...

 

And as to that kingship is duty and a king must put people first and live and rule for them ....

" why the gods created kings and gods if not to protect those who can't by themselves " 

" a queen Belongs not to herself but to her people " 

" a queen should know her people's suffering" 

These are how dany views the queenship ...

I thought it could be about Dany as well, but it actually cannot be. She never lived on her own, even when they were poor, Viserys did take care of her and she is not self sufficient at all. Also, she does think Queenship is her right because of her Targaryan Blood. And although she has said things about putting her people's need first, she hasn't exactly acted upon them.

I don't want to change this thread into Love/Hate Dany thread. I just think it is not the best fit for Dany as she lacks some of the most important points.

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I don't know about arya but the speech fits mostly with what happened to dany ..

She can lead and plan a battle ..capable of speaking many languages  ....she knows not only about seven but gets to know about all sorts of culture and religion ...she can adapt to any new custom ...dany's dream when she was young was to be a Fisher woman ...

She knows what its to be hungry .,hunted and afraid since she spends most of her life as a begger running for life and abused by a brother ...

 

And as to that kingship is duty and a king must put people first and live and rule for them ....

" why the gods created kings andqueens  if not to protect those who can't by themselves " 

" a queen Belongs not to herself but to her people " 

" a queen should know her people's suffering" 

These are how dany views the queenship ...

Dany is a great character, but pne thing she is certainly not is educated.

She has extremely poor knowledge of history, poetry, religion, etc.

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Dany is a great character, but pne thing she is certainly not is educated.

She has extremely poor knowledge of history, poetry, religion, etc.

i agree she lacks education ... But that doesn't mean she is not learning or willing to read.....she is one of the quick learners in the story and always questions and wanting to learn from others right ...I believe learning through experience is much more positive point than only reading the books ...she is learning it hard way ..

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I thought it could be about Dany as well, but it actually cannot be. She never lived on her own, even when they were poor, Viserys did take care of her and she is not self sufficient at all. Also, she does think Queenship is her right because of her Targaryan Blood. And although she has said things about putting her people's need first, she hasn't exactly acted upon them.

I don't want to change this thread into Love/Hate Dany thread. I just think it is not the best fit for Dany as she lacks some of the most important points.

 

in that case who did grow up on their own ....arya had her parents for a decade and lived happily with them as well. . despite his claims YG had jon con septa lemore illyrio and varys taking care of him ...

 and do YG doesn't think that's his right or arya when she killed daeron she acted on the behalf of lord of winter fell right ...what do you mean by she didn't act on it ....she did what she did in astopor because ahe belives in that ...otherwise she would have bought 40000 unsullied and gone to illyrio or went into the camps of those who are suffering from plague and helped them herself or set aside her own wishes and married hizdar ....do you think  as she acted on it if only when it comes to westerosi people ...those who are in slavers bay are also people right 

 

 

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 and do YG doesn't think that's his right or arya when she killed daeron she acted on the behalf of lord of winter fell right ...what do you mean by she didn't act on it ....she did what she did in astopor because ahe belives in that ...otherwise she would have bought 40000 unsullied and gone to illyrio or went into the camps of those who are suffering from plague and helped them herself or set aside her own wishes and married hizdar ....do you think  as she acted on it if only when it comes to westerosi people ...those who are in slavers bay are also people right 

 

 

I think Arya killing Daeron in Stark capacity is her duty, not her right. (I am not even saying it is a good thing). Generally, Arya never acts as if somebody owes something to her because she is a lady of noble birth.

As for Dany and Unsullied in Astapour, she could not pay for them and she basically created a chaos that stopped anyone from taking action against her taking all the unsullied. I am also not taking about her doing good or bad, just trying to argue that this particular speech does not fit her.

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I think Arya killing Daeron in Stark capacity is her duty, not her right. (I am not even saying it is a good thing). Generally, Arya never acts as if somebody owes something to her because she is a lady of noble birth.

As for Dany and Unsullied in Astapour, she could not pay for them and she basically created a chaos that stopped anyone from taking action against her taking all the unsullied. I am also not taking about her doing good or bad, just trying to argue that this particular speech does not fit her.

and dany doesn't acts as if everything is owed to her ....she goes begging in qarth not demanding ...she wanted to go to westeros since it was her home and once viserys died she sees its her duty for her ancestors to take back westeros ...can you provide one quote where she acts as if everything is owed to her ...

Thats the point she couldn't pay for 8000 ...which is not what she went there for ...she could have paid for 3000 and 4000 and left for pentos ....she only asks for 8000 after seeing their sufferings ....she doesnt know whether her gamble will work ....you can see her fear inthe chapter of dracarys ...just imagine what would have happened if her gamble failed and unsullied never listened to her ...

Am notsaying you say her as a bad ...but i don't know you can claim how she has never done anything on what she believes ...like I said the reason she married hizdar.   his she put her people first ....she lead the group of old and sick people over a desert ....thats shows her strength .she can speak and write many languages ....she can adapt to environments ..she knows the suffering of common people she knows hungry and knows how it must be to afraid ....she has learned about more cultures and religions not just the seven she worships.    The only thing she lacks knowledge is history which she is learning everyday 

So if not her Can you tell who fit the speech more.   

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and dany doesn't acts as if everything is owed to her ....she goes begging in qarth not demanding ...she wanted to go to westeros since it was her home and once viserys died she sees its her duty for her ancestors to take back westeros ...can you provide one quote where she acts as if everything is owed to her ...

Thats the point she couldn't pay for 8000 ...which is not what she went there for ...she could have paid for 3000 and 4000 and left for pentos ....she only asks for 8000 after seeing their sufferings ....she doesnt know whether her gamble will work ....you can see her fear inthe chapter of dracarys ...just imagine what would have happened if her gamble failed and unsullied never listened to her ...

Am notsaying you say her as a bad ...but i don't know you can claim how she has never done anything on what she believes ...like I said the reason she married hizdar.   his she put her people first ....she lead the group of old and sick people over a desert ....thats shows her strength .she can speak and write many languages ....she can adapt to environments ..she knows the suffering of common people she knows hungry and knows how it must be to afraid ....she has learned about more cultures and religions not just the seven she worships.    The only thing she lacks knowledge is history which she is learning everyday 

So if not her Can you tell who fit the speech more.   

Her marriage to Hizdar, opening the fighting pits, profiting from Slavery, complete destabilization of the Slaver's bay, shattering of economy in Mereen, events in Astapour after her leave, people dying out of starvation and disease, the ensuing war of Mereen, refusing to institutionalize law and order in Mereen, and many many more are the direct results of both Dany act of "freeing" slaves without understanding the magnitude and meaning of this act and her complete lack of competence in being a ruler.

Her whole tangent of believing she should be the Queen of "Westeros" is because she thinks she has inherited the right by being a Targaryan despite her utmost failure as a queen in Mereen. She is not trying to better westerosi, help them out of a tangent, or rule them as a better ruler than they already have. We have been reading how unsuitable of a ruler she is despite her "best efforts". So, her ambitions for Westeros is not based on merit or sense of duty, but blood right. 

As for who is more of a fit to the speech, it is in the title of the thread: Arya. I am not arguing that Arya is a good ruler (we've never seen her rule) nor that she is being groomed to be one. It just struck me that this speech fits a figure that is never associated with ruling in a larger context: Arya.

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Her marriage to Hizdar, opening the fighting pits, profiting from Slavery, complete destabilization of the Slaver's bay, shattering of economy in Mereen, events in Astapour after her leave, people dying out of starvation and disease, the ensuing war of Mereen, refusing to institutionalize law and order in Mereen, and many many more are the direct results of both Dany act of "freeing" slaves without understanding the magnitude and meaning of this act and her complete lack of competence in being a ruler.

Her whole tangent of believing she should be the Queen of "Westeros" is because she thinks she has inherited the right by being a Targaryan despite her utmost failure as a queen in Mereen. She is not trying to better westeros, help them out of a tangent, or rule them as a better ruler than they already have. We have been reading how unsuitable of ruler she is despite of her "best efforts". So, her ambitions for Westeros is not based on merit or sense of duty, but blood right. 

As for who is more of a fit to the speech, it is in the title of the thread: Arya. I am not arguing that Arya is a good ruler (we've never seen her rule) nor that she is being groomed to be one. It just struck me that this speech is about a figure that is never associated with ruling in a larger context: Arya.

now I believe you are just trolling. ..I thought we were speaking about how dany views queenships Not whether she is competant or not ...

are you sure is that what we are reading how unsuitable she is ....even the author disagrees with you there...

Of course the one who fits most is who has done no ruling and one we doesn't know how competant she is or doesn't have any views on being a king or queen while the one who thinks " a queen does not belongs to herself but for her people " which is exactly what the speech says " king should put his people first and rule for them " and acts on that view does not fit ...  

Anyways I don't want to discuss this anymore and derail the thread...good day to you 

 

 

 

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I think that the quote is super interesting especially given all the other implications that Arya will become a ruler. Personality-wise, she's a natural leader. She led the small pack she formed with Gendry and Hotpie and her wolf Nymeria is currently leading a superpack. Nymeria is also named after a queen.

I think that there are three big hints in AGOT.

 One by one Arya had chased them down and snatched them up and brought them proudly to Syrio Forel … all but this one, this one-eared black devil of a tomcat. "That's the real king of this castle right there," one of the gold cloaks had told her. "Older than sin and twice as mean. One time, the king was feasting the queen's father, and that black bastard hopped up on the table and snatched a roast quail right out of Lord Tywin's fingers. Robert laughed so hard he like to burst. You stay away from that one, child."

....

He hissed again and tried to dart between her legs. Quick as a snake, she thought. Her hands closed around him. She hugged him to her chest, whirling and laughing aloud as his claws raked at the front of her leather jerkin. Ever so fast, she kissed him right between the eyes, and jerked her head back an instant before his claws would have found her face. The tomcat yowled and spit.

Arya catches and kisses a cat called 'the real king of the castle' after chasing it for a long time.  

“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.”

Arya screwed up her face. “No,” she said, “that’s Sansa.”  

 And of course this quote could have been/could be foreshadowing of Arya marrying a King. Though some people may argue that by saying "no" Arya has the power to defy foreshadowing put in by the author. There is also a quote earlier in a Catelyn chapter where Ned refers to himself as "father to queens". That quote is what convinced me that the above is a legitimate case of foreshadowing. On the surface it's Ned trying to comfort his daughter, but its foretelling actually what will happen at the end of the story (I hope). Quite sneaky of GRRM.

I also don't buy the argument that the above quote is in favor of Sansa becoming queen instead. Ned told Sansa to her face that she would marry a high lord, not a King. Also I think if Arya ends up with the fate that Sansa originally wanted it will be a call back to the "Two sides of the same coin" quote, which would be fitting towards the end. 

Back at Winterfell, they had eaten in the Great Hall almost half the time. Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. "Know the men who follow you," she heard him tell Robb once, "and let them know you. Don't ask your men to die for a stranger." At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. The next time it would be Mikken, and her father would listen to him go on about armor and swords and how hot a forge should be and the best way to temper steel. Another day it might be Hullen with his endless horse talk, or Septon Chayle from the library, or Jory, or Ser Rodrik, or even Old Nan with her stories.

Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father's table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms. She used to throw snowballs at them and help them steal pies from the kitchen. Their wives gave her scones and she invented names for their babies and played monsters-and-maidens and hide-the-treasure and come-into-my-castle with their children. Fat Tom used to call her "Arya Underfoot," because he said that was where she always was. She'd liked that a lot better than "Arya Horseface."

I especially love this quote because here Arya is recalling lessons Ned had given to Robb, his heir, who was supposed to rule Winterfell. 

The second paragraph makes it clear that Arya would have no problem 'knowing the men who followed her' if she did in fact become a ruler of some kind. She didn't just like listening to the men at her father's table. She loved it. She's a very social person, she makes friends everywhere she goes. She also got to know the wives and children of the people who followed her father, which makes me think that she would be a very loved ruler if she ever becomes one. 

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does it really need elaboration? He wasn't talking about Arya.

Well, no, he wasn't. I am just saying that he could be as it fits Arya as well. But I guess you point is not refutable :D

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i agree she lacks education ... But that doesn't mean she is not learning or willing to read.....she is one of the quick learners in the story and always questions and wanting to learn from others right ...I believe learning through experience is much more positive point than only reading the books ...she is learning it hard way ..

regardless, this thread is about a particular speech and who it applies to, and as far as education goes it definitely does not apply to Dany for the time being.

While I tend to agree that real experience is important, books are also important and there really hasn't been much sign she is acquiring historical and theoretical learning from books or any other source. Maybe that will change if she ever gets a teacher, but for now she is quite ignorant.

Also, Dany has not had a particularly easy life, but she has never lived as a commoner or worked either. She was a beggar guest of powerful people for a very long time, and then she married a Khal, which was a position of relative privilege. In the Red Waste she was starving along with the others, but she was also their leader and not a worker. etc.

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What matters is that throughout Arya's story she has shown that she can do pretty much all of these things. Even Dany doesn't fit the description as well as Arya does. And Arya isn't even finished learning yet. 

There is also a thread dedicated to Arya's similarities to Aegon the unlikely which I thought was interesting too. 

There's also a bit of show dialogue that may foreshadow Arya becoming queen. 

SHOW DIALOGUE BETWEEN SANSA AND MARGAERY

- My cousin Alanna was the most beautiful girl I'd ever seen. When I was twelve, I was all elbows and knees and Alanna looked like a goddess sent to torture me. Pig-face, she called me.

- Pig-face ? That's ridiculous.

- I think it had something to do with my nose. Whenever she passed me in the halls, she'd oink.

[...]

- So what happened to Alanna ?

- Oh, she grew up to be the most beautiful woman and married a handsome lord, and they have darling children and live in a castle by the sea. It's all terribly frustrating.

- I'm sure she's jealous of you now. You'll be married here in the capital and she will have to come watch and pretend to be happy that you're queen.

 Margaery's "pigface" story that she tells to Sansa is obviously a reference to Arya's childhood wherein she felt inferior to her sister for her beauty and talents. Both Sansa and Jeyne would call Arya "horseface" and neigh at her. 

It wasn't fair. Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way. Sansa could sew and dance and sing. She wrote poetry. She knew how to dress. She played the high harp and the bells. Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother's fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. Arya took after their lord father. Her hair was a lusterless brown, and her face was long and solemn. Jeyne used to call her Arya Horseface, and neigh whenever she came near. (AGOT)

Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would just wash and brush her hair and take more care with her dress, the way her sister did. To her sister and sister's friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. (ADWD)

"He's to marry Arya Stark. My little sister." Jon could almost see her in that moment, long-faced and gawky, all knobby knees and sharp elbows, with her dirty face and tangled hair. (ADWD)

Clearly Margaery is being paralleled with Arya here and Sansa/Jeyne is being paralleled with Alanna. The important part is that Margaery becomes Queen while Alanna does not. I can't help but think of this other quote from AGOT

"Go ahead, call me all the names you want," Sansa said airily. "You won't dare when I'm married to Joffrey. You'll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace." She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.
"You have juice on your face, Your Grace," Arya said.

 If in fact Arya does become queen I wonder how Sansa would feel about having to call her "Your Grace". ^_^

There's actually more connections betweeen Margaery and Arya, but I'll put those in another thread.

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