Can Varys's ADWD epilogue Speech be about Arya?

[Hippocras]

^I agree there are plenty of bits of text here and there to set up the possibility of Arya becoming queen. But what is completely lacking for her is a clear path to getting there.

There are also plenty of contradictory bits of text to set up the possibilty that she dies or that she rejects all positions of privalege or femininity entirely. So really we will have to wait and see where her story goes.

[Hippocras]

To speculate on HOW Arya might become queen, one idea I had recently is that it could well have something to do with her time in Braavos.

1. Maybe she somehow becomes the candidate with the backing of the Iron Bank. They backed Stannis but he will fail eventually. Clearly they are looking for some direction to throw their influence. So far they have has plenty of occasion to back Dany but they have not done so it seems, for reasons that are unclear. There are also connections/divisions between the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men that remain to be clarified, but this may be why her time in Braavos leads to the Iron Bank taking an interest in her.

2. Or, maybe her assassin training leads her into contact with Dany, joining that camp. Then Dany takes a liking to her. Dany is infertile possibly, so may have some motive for considering people to pass the torch to.

[shizett]

The reason I did not mention foreshadowing was because I cannot decide if this similarity is meant to be a foreshadowing about Arya's future as a queen, or YG's failure as a ruler.

I really like Arya and I agree that she has many characteristics that would make her a good candidate for a ruler, but she also has some serious challenges to overcome and much of it is in her personality. She is still struggling with differentiating between justice and personal revenge. She is impulsive and impatient. By being completely blind to the class hierarchy she fails to understand the world she lives in. Also, since she is personally not very interested in class or money, she is blind to a part of human nature, which shows itself in her ability to rally others to her cause (as we see in Harrenhal with Gendry and Hot Pie).

I cannot help but wonder if this is meant to show how difficult it would be for YG to settle in a feudal world, where some of right things to do would be completely different from his experiences and are probably in opposition to his intuitions.

[shizett]

There is also a thread dedicated to Arya's similarities to Aegon the unlikely which I thought was interesting too.

This was such a cool link. Thanks for referencing it here

[Good Guy Garlan]

To speculate on HOW Arya might become queen, one idea I had recently is that it could well have something to do with her time in Braavos.

1. Maybe she somehow becomes the candidate with the backing of the Iron Bank. They backed Stannis but he will fail eventually. Clearly they are looking for some direction to throw their influence. So far they have has plenty of occasion to back Dany but they have not done so it seems, for reasons that are unclear. There are also connections/divisions between the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men that remain to be clarified, but this may be why her time in Braavos leads to the Iron Bank taking an interest in her.

2. Or, maybe her assassin training leads her into contact with Dany, joining that camp. Then Dany takes a liking to her. Dany is infertile possibly, so may have some motive for considering people to pass the torch to.

3. She goes back to Westeros, the BwB finds her and Stoneheart gives her Robb's crown as Robb's heir, declaring Queen of the North and the Riverlands

4. She marries Aegon, with history sort of repeating itself, given her similarities to Lyanna

[Hippocras]

3. She goes back to Westeros, the BwB finds her and Stoneheart gives her Robb's crown as Robb's heir, declaring Queen of the North and the Riverlands

4. She marries Aegon, with history sort of repeating itself, given her similarities to Lyanna

I could see the Stoneheart thing maybe. Interesting. But hard to see Stoneheart bypassing Sansa. 

[Good Guy Garlan]

I could see the Stoneheart thing maybe. Interesting. But hard to see Stoneheart bypassing Sansa. 

I think Stoneheart would crown the first Starkling she can get her hands on, she's that desperate for revenge

[Hippocras]

I think Stoneheart would crown the first Starkling she can get her hands on, she's that desperate for revenge

Maybe, but I doubt Arya will be back all that soon. Also, Stoneheart's revenge seems close at hand: a wedding will happen soon.

Personally I think Rickon will show up long before Arya does. The crown would most likely go to him.

[Bea Noleto]

I would hate if Arya becomes a queen because she is married to a king. If she ever becomes a queen, it must be on her own right, but I don't see that happening.

I think Varys speech could be foreshadowing Jon becoming the King. He had a noble's education, but suffered discrimination for being a bastard; he rode with the wildlings in an undercover operation; he is interested in learning; he had martial training and experience; he made though decisions; he was misunderstood; he had experience in ruling and most likely failed. But failure is also learning, if you can overcome that you become more cautious and resilient. If Jon survives he would be an excellent king material.

Just please GRRM, don't marry Jon with Arya. I would be disgusting.

[Ice Turtle]

I could see the Stoneheart thing maybe. Interesting. But hard to see Stoneheart bypassing Sansa. 

That depends on how much of Cat is left in her. Cat strongly disagreed with naming Jon as the heir but actually agreed with Robb about disinheriting Sansa. It is possible that information about Sansa's marriage being unconsummated did not reach her. In Cat's last chapters she considered Sansa lost to them. Besides Catelyn herself is not a Stark, she does not have the power to change Robb's will.

Story-wise Arya has much stronger connection to this storyline. She spent two books in Riverlands, met the Brotherhood, attended the Red Wedding, influenced Stonhearts resurrection (trough Nymeria but likely also because she made Beric swear he will reunite her with her mother), left her wolf in the area, has much bigger mommy issues than Sansa, her arc is a lot about vengeance, life and death...     

Sansa is more connected to the Vale and King's Landing. Hell, she even went to Vale by a ship so she did not step to this area since AGoT and if she ever travels South again I expect it will by again by a ship.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Not even Aegon fits perfectly Varys' speech, LOL.

Several characters fit his speech though, to a certain degree, while failing to fit some of its aspects; for examble, Tyrion is the best fit for some but completeley misses the rest.

But I agree that Arya is the overall best alternative, as she --more or less-- checks all the boxes.

 

ETA-

Story-wise Arya has much stronger connection to this storyline. She spent two books in Riverlands, met the Brotherhood, attended the Red Wedding, influenced Stonhearts resurrection (trough Nymeria but likely also because she made Beric swear he will reunite her with her mother), left her wolf in the area, has much bigger mommy issues than Sansa, her arc is a lot about vengeance, life and death... 

I agree that Stoneheart's and the Riverlands storyline is mostly connected to Arya's. I think that their meeting will be the ultimate end of Lady Stoneheart's presence in the world of the living, though I strongly disagree with the notion that "Arya will kill her for mercy".

[shizett]

    -Snip-

ETA-

I agree that Stoneheart's and the Riverlands storyline is mostly connected to Arya's. I think that their meeting will be the ultimate end of Lady Stoneheart's presence in the world of the living, though I strongly disagree with the notion that "Arya will kill her for mercy".

Why?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Why?

Because I believe that this notion is built upon readers' projection, of their own feelings about Stoneheart, on Arya's character, though textual clues do not point that way: Arya did not freak out about Berric, why would she about her own mother, whose rise she, personally and through Nymeria, engineered? Arya pleaded to Thoros for her father's ressurection. Arya shares Stoneheart's need for revenge, she would not be appalled by it, as some readers would like it. Also, Stoneheart does not seem to suffer and if she does, she is not bound to the living human restriction of survival instinct so she ccould take care of the matter herself, if that was her wish. So, finally, killing her would be kinslaying, and that's something Arya's character would never do, plain and simple.

IMO it's far more likely that Stoneheart sacrifices her unlife in an attempt to save Arya's life (or something similar), concluding Catelyn/Stoneheart's arc with a bittersweet taste.

[Hippocras]

Because I believe that this notion is built upon readers' projection, of their own feelings about Stoneheart, on Arya's character, though textual clues do not point that way: Arya did not freak out about Berric, why would she about her own mother, whose rise she, personally and through Nymeria, engineered? Arya pleaded to Thoros for her father's ressurection. Arya shares Stoneheart's need for revenge, she would not be appalled by it, as some readers would like it. Also, Stoneheart does not seem to suffer and if she does, she is not bound to the living human restriction of survival instinct so she ccould take care of the matter herself, if that was her wish. So, finally, killing her would be kinslaying, and that's something Arya's character would never do, plain and simple.

IMO it's far more likely that Stoneheart sacrifices her unlife in an attempt to save Arya's life (or something similar), concluding Catelyn/Stoneheart's arc with a bittersweet taste.

It is an interesting question, whi kills Stoneheart and why.

One possibility is Brienne. She would do it if forced to choose between vows: her vow to serve Catelyn versus some other vow or principle. One thing I do suspect is that Stoneheart has something to do with the forging of the sword, and hers might be the fiery heart the sword needs to plung in to.

[shizett]

Because I believe that this notion is built upon readers' projection, of their own feelings about Stoneheart, on Arya's character, though textual clues do not point that way: Arya did not freak out about Berric, why would she about her own mother, whose rise she, personally and through Nymeria, engineered? Arya pleaded to Thoros for her father's ressurection. Arya shares Stoneheart's need for revenge, she would not be appalled by it, as some readers would like it. Also, Stoneheart does not seem to suffer and if she does, she is not bound to the living human restriction of survival instinct so she ccould take care of the matter herself, if that was her wish. So, finally, killing her would be kinslaying, and that's something Arya's character would never do, plain and simple.

IMO it's far more likely that Stoneheart sacrifices her unlife in an attempt to save Arya's life (or something similar), concluding Catelyn/Stoneheart's arc with a bittersweet taste.

I think your points are very interesting, but I really have no idea what Arya is capable of.

Ned, Jon, and Catelyn did things uncharacteristic of them when it came down to family, Sansa IIRC only had the trident accident when she directly stayed opposed to a family member(Arya) and she screwed up. Arya has never had such an opportunity, I am not sure what she would do if she thought her mom was suffering (it does not have to be a correct perception), I could imagine Arya killing people out of real mercy, especially her family. So far she has always been looking for them, never been with them (since all hell broke loose).

[ShadowCat Rivers]

It is an interesting question, whi kills Stoneheart and why.

One possibility is Brienne. She would do it if forced to choose between vows: her vow to serve Catelyn versus some other vow or principle. One thing I do suspect is that Stoneheart has something to do with the forging of the sword, and hers might be the fiery heart the sword needs to plung in to.

I don't know, killing the already dead as the "price" for a magic sword, it would be kind of cheap IMO... With Brienne as the hero, I think it would be more fitting to the sacrifice theme of the Lightbringer legend if the fiery heart was Jaime's, the man that she loves (though I don't really see it happening that way).

[Hippocras]

I don't know, killing the already dead as the "price" for a magic sword, it would be kind of cheap IMO... With Brienne as the hero, I think it would be more fitting to the sacrifice theme of the Lightbringer legend if the fiery heart was Jaime's, the man that she loves (though I don't really see it happening that way).

I don't mean it as Brienne being the hero.

I am not convinced all of the steps of the forging need to happen via a single person. If my theory of the sword is correct, then Ned was one of the sacrifices when he was killed with his own sword, which Brienne now carries part of. Obviously Illyn Payne is not the hero, though he killed Ned. The magic comes from the victim and their relationship to the sword's story and not so much whoever does the killing with it. In this version, the relationship between Stoneheart and  Oathkeeper is bery clear.  But I could have it all wrong.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

^ I admit I have no idea or any theory about the role of the two swords and how they fit (if they do - though it's more likely that they will...) into the magical aspect of the story.

[Harlaw's Book the Sequel]

Not even Aegon fits perfectly Varys' speech, LOL.

Several characters fit his speech though, to a certain degree, while failing to fit some of its aspects; for examble, Tyrion is the best fit for some but completeley misses the rest.

But I agree that Arya is the overall best alternative, as she --more or less-- checks all the boxes.

I'm also think Varys' speech could be applied to several characters.  But I like thinking about how it applies to Arya because it shows Varys' theories about what makes a good ruler is just as flawed as any of the other what makes a good ruler theories proposed in the series.  Admittedly Varys' arguments are more appealing than most of the other arguments, but I still see it as a list of arbitrary requirements, and I don't think Arya is great leader material just because she meets those requirements.  Conversely I don't think other characters are disqualified just because they don't meet the requirements or fit as perfectly.  I'm ambivalent about how I feel about Arya's leadership given everything she gone through, but if she does become a great leader, I think there would be more to it then just what Varys describes.      

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I'm also think Varys' speech could be applied to several characters.  But I like thinking about how it applies to Arya because it shows Varys' theories about what makes a good ruler is just as flawed as any of the other what makes a good ruler theories proposed in the series.  Admittedly Varys' arguments are more appealing than most of the other arguments, but I still see it as a list of arbitrary requirements, and I don't think Arya is great leader material just because she meets those requirements.  Conversely I don't think other characters are disqualified just because they don't meet the requirements or fit as perfectly.  I'm ambivalent about how I feel about Arya's leadership given everything she gone through, but if she does become a great leader, I think there would be more to it then just what Varys describes.

Well, personally I think that Arya would make a great leader and a decent enough ruler, but that's not the point. I think that Varys' speech fails to acknowledge that leaders and rulers are individuals too, and as such there are many more variables to consider, such as how well they react / maintain their principles under pressure and / or dilemmas, and things like that. But, more importantly, it's too much of a recipe, and recipes just don't work so well in the matters of society: different times, circumstances and purposes require different sorts of leaders and it seems that Varys' idea of what his perfect ruler will have to deal with, may just be outdated.