Can Varys's ADWD epilogue Speech be about Arya?

[Hippocras]

Well, personally I think that Arya would make a great leader and a decent enough ruler, but that's not the point. I think that Varys' speech fails to acknowledge that leaders and rulers are individuals too, and as such there are many more variables to consider, such as how well they react / maintain their principles under pressure and / or dilemmas, and things like that. But, more importantly, it's too much of a recipe, and recipes just don't work so well in the matters of society: different times, circumstances and purposes require different sorts of leaders and it seems that Varys' idea of what his perfect ruler will have to deal with, may just be outdated.

Most of the things on Varys's list are in fact quite important to the education of a good leader.

I think the issue is basically that it discounts the "nature" part, as in "nature" and "nurture". It covers all of the bases of "nurture" making it clear he has been trying to do his best to raise someone who has all the tools he needs to be a good leader. 

But there are tools, and then there is aptitude and basic personal instincts. Those things are not in Varys's control.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

^ Although I agree about some of them, I am not so sure why, for examble, having been hunted is a good experience for a ruler. It is not nessecary for a normally (as in average) empathetic person to understand what it means, without having had the experience themselves, while, on the contrary, it can have grave consequences to the formation of one's personality.

(This particular aspect also strikes me as one that Aegon, as far as we know, has not actually experienced having been kept in secrecy all the time, also pushing forward the notion that the spreech is intended -by the author- to describe other characters in truth.)

Another expamble that applies to the different times - different needs idea: I don't know whether a ruler who's partial to one religion is best fit for a time where various religions are strengthening their influence and religious tensions are on the rise, if the aim is to rule the entire realm, that is.

But I agree with you that one of the most serious flaws of Varys' good rulership criteria is that it disregards the nature part.

[Hippocras]

^ Although I agree about some of them, I am not so sure why, for examble, having been hunted is a good experience for a ruler. It is not nessecary for a normally (as in average) empathetic person to understand what it means, without having had the experience themselves, while, on the contrary, it can have grave consequences to the formation of one's personality.

(This particular aspect also strikes me as one that Aegon, as far as we know, has not actually experienced having been kept in secrecy all the time, also pushing forward the notion that the spreech is intended -by the author- to describe other characters in truth.)

Another expamble that applies to the different times - different needs idea: I don't know whether a ruler who's partial to one religion is best fit for a time where various religions are strengthening their influence and religious tensions are on the rise, if the aim is to rule the entire realm, that is.

But I agree with you that one of the most serious flaws of Varys' good rulership criteria is that it disregards the nature part.

The Faith of the Seven has a monopoly over most of Aegon's intended kingdom, and even many followers in the North. I am sure Aegon is aware of most of the other religions just from growing up in Essos. His only gap would be the "old gods" which, to be fair, is not something that can really be studied as it is not a religion of books or doctrine.

As for being hunted...maybe he has been. Don't feel like I know enough. But it is IMO that people do tend to judge without understanding if they have never experienced it, because the easiest thing is always to assume that hunted people deserve to be hunted. I do agree it impacts the psychology. To what extent depends a lot on when in life a person experiences a trauma such as this, and what resources are then available to them to help them with the psychological processing of their experiences.

[HalfJobRob]

Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them

The only duty Arya has, thing she puts first and lives for is Revenge.

At 10yrs old she's a cold blooded remorseless killer.

If Arya does become a leader maybe she'll follow in the footsteps of another well loved fictional character and turn to the dark side.

[shizett]

19 hours ago, HalfJobRob said:

Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them

The only duty Arya has, thing she puts first and lives for is Revenge.

At 10yrs old she's a cold blooded remorseless killer.

If Arya does become a leader maybe she'll follow in the footsteps of another well loved fictional character and turn to the dark side.

Who do you mean?

[Pod The Rod]

44 minutes ago, shizett said:

Who do you mean?

Undoubtedly he means Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.

But thinking Arya lives for nothing but Revenge, and that she's nothing but a cold blooded, remorseless killer, is simply a terrible, atrocious misreading of the character which is sadly all too common. 

[shizett]

2 hours ago, Pod The Rod said:

Undoubtedly he means Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.

But thinking Arya lives for nothing but Revenge, and that she's nothing but a cold blooded, remorseless killer, is simply a terrible, atrocious misreading of the character which is sadly all too common. 

Thanks. I haven't watched any of SWs, so ...

But I agree on Arya. That is a misreading of her character. Since I wasn't familiar with the character, I thought it might be a conditional: if Arya is only interested in revenge, it leads to her being bloodthirsty, and ....

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Ok I'll probably get a little push back here...

but the Varys bit is about Jon right?

I mean not that Varys intends it that way, but his description fits Jon much better than it fits Aegon... Duty... Being hunted... Etc...

Especially if I'm right that the whole bit with Dany's vision in the house of the Undying where we see Rhaegar name Aegon as the Prince that was Promised, is really him naming Jon... Aegon, and Ned just named Jon after Jon Aryn to disguise him. Making Varys unwittingly describing the rightful king instead of his mummers dragon...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

25 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ok I'll probably get a little push back here...

but the Varys bit is about Jon right?

I mean not that Varys intends it that way, but his description fits Jon much better than it fits Aegon... Duty... Being hunted... Etc...

Especially if I'm right that the whole bit with Dany's vision in the house of the Undying where we see Rhaegar name Aegon as the Prince that was Promised, is really him naming Jon... Aegon, and Ned just named Jon after Jon Aryn to disguise him. Making Varys unwittingly describing the rightful king instead of his mummers dragon...

As I said upthread, parts of the speech could describe several characters. Jon is one of them.

But Jon is not the best fit: not a polyglot (for all we know), a follower of the Old Gods (no septa for him) just to name a couple.

Hunted, and hungry, are not pointed aspects of his story either.

So I do not think that GRRM speaking through Varys intended this speech to point specifically at Jon.

[shizett]

5 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

As I said upthread, parts of the speech could describe several characters. Jon is one of them.

But Jon is not the best fit: not a polyglot (for all we know), a follower of the Old Gods (no septa for him) just to name a couple.

So I do not think that GRRM speaking through Varys intended this speech to point specifically at Jon.

I thought a bit more about being haunted and you are right. Why would that be a good characteristic for a leader?

Also, Varys says that Aegon thinks leadership is his duty. Why? What has he ever shown that is better than current rulers for it to become his duty?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

6 minutes ago, shizett said:

I thought a bit more about being haunted and you are right. Why would that be a good characteristic for a leader?

Also, Varys says that Aegon thinks leadership is his duty. Why? What has he ever shown that is better than current rulers for it to become his duty?

Perhaps Varys is describing not Aegon, nor any other young "prospect", but himself, and by the bits and pieces of his backstory that we have, he does fit many of the criteria. In that case, it's very possible that he would see his own experiences and mindset/potential wrt ruling as the best.

 

(Even if he's not doing exactly that, I expect that what he is, and what has shaped him, to have influenced his ideas on "what it takes". We all do, to a greater or lesser degree).

[shizett]

1 minute ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Perhaps Varys is describing not Aegon, nor any other young "prospect", but himself, and by the bits and pieces of his backstory that we have, he does fit many of the criteria. In that case, it's very possible that he would see his own experiences and mindset/potential wrt ruling as the best.

Now that's a very interesting thought.

[Warm Pie]

"He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be..."

"A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them..."

Neither of these applies to Varys.

 

[shizett]

9 hours ago, Warm Pie said:

"He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be..."

"A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them..."

Neither of these applies to Varys.

 

We do not know how knowledgeable he is in either of those areas. Given that he is not an under 20yo youth, he could have acquired them later during his lifetime. Also, he can rule through proxy, so he would combine his capabilities and Aegon's.

But you are right. It is pure speculation. There is no evidence for him knowing those things, or hoping to rule in a country that he was not born in or have particular power source or base.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

26 minutes ago, shizett said:

We do not know how knowledgeable he is in either of those areas. Given that he is not an under 20yo youth, he could have acquired them later during his lifetime. Also, he can rule through proxy, so he would combine his capabilities and Aegon's.

But you are right. It is pure speculation. There is no evidence for him knowing those things, or hoping to rule in a country that he was not born in or have particular power source or base.

Yea, that's what I was thinking about. Varys can't hope to rule in his own right and he's too smart to not understand that. But we can safely assume that he intends to be the one pulling the strings and making decisions in the hypothetical Aegon's rule.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

As I said upthread, parts of the speech could describe several characters. Jon is one of them.

But Jon is not the best fit: not a polyglot (for all we know), a follower of the Old Gods (no septa for him) just to name a couple.

Hunted, and hungry, are not pointed aspects of his story either.

So I do not think that GRRM speaking through Varys intended this speech to point specifically at Jon.

Well he did grow up with a septa, who presumably instructed him as he seems to have received the same instruction from the other tutors (Lewin, Rodrik, etc.) as did the stark children. Quote doesn't say anything about believing in the faith of the seven.

Also, he has been specifically hunted, both by the wildlife when he ran with the halfhand. And again when fleeing to castle black. There are a number of times he's hungry and they butcher horses to eat, not to mention that a significant part of his chapters in this book were about finding food for winter.

But that is fair that it might not be specifically there... But I do think that when (if) the series is complete and we reread this part it will be clear that the ideals and upbringing Varys is talking about are embodied by Jon

ps... Also Aegon acts like a little brat no matter how he was raised

[shizett]

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Well he did grow up with a septa, who presumably instructed him as he seems to have received the same instruction from the other tutors (Lewin, Rodrik, etc.) as did the stark children. Quote doesn't say anything about believing in the faith of the seven.

Also, he has been specifically hunted, both by the wildlife when he ran with the halfhand. And again when fleeing to castle black. There are a number of times he's hungry and they butcher horses to eat, not to mention that a significant part of his chapters in this book were about finding food for winter.

But that is fair that it might not be specifically there... But I do think that when (if) the series is complete and we reread this part it will be clear that the ideals and upbringing Varys is talking about are embodied by Jon

ps... Also Aegon acts like a little brat no matter how he was raised

I think the best thing about Jon as a leader is his intimate knowledge of the place and people he leads. He also has a unique place in the sense that he is both part of nobility (by training) and common people (by being a bastard) which really suits his self image in NW. But I really don't know how well he would fare if he were to become The King of Westeros.

I think those points about the multiple languages, law, and poetry are about broadening one's horizons and Jon would be lacking there. His lack of respect for /inability to appreciate some of southern courtesy was already showing, so ...

[ShadowCat Rivers]

7 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

[...] ps... Also Aegon acts like a little brat no matter how he was raised

I like Jon a lot, but come on. Aegon just flips a table when intendedly pushed by Tyrion of all people. Jon has behaved way more bratty than that, while -having been raised as a bastard- he's supposed to be much less subjected to the lordly entitlement mindset. Do you remember how he reacted to being named Jeor's stuard?

People are too harsh on Aegon for something so minor, when he just act just like a normal kid of his age would, in his place.

 

About the rest (septa, humgry and hunted), I do not think that the respective lines would bring Jon to anyone's mind, if taken out of the specific context of Varys' ideal ruler speech. Just juxtapose Arya's relevent passages to Jon's: in Arya's storyline they are important thematic elements of two books; in Jon's they are insignificant, comparatively.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, shizett said:

I think the best thing about Jon as a leader is his intimate knowledge of the place and people he leads. He also has a unique place in the sense that he is both part of nobility (by training) and common people (by being a bastard) which really suits his self image in NW. But I really don't know how well he would fare if he were to become The King of Westeros.

I think those points about the multiple languages, law, and poetry are about broadening one's horizons and Jon would be lacking there. His lack of respect for /inability to appreciate some of southern courtesy was already showing, so ...

I think the best thing about him is the sense of duty... This is a man who turned down being king in the north because he swore a vow. Also, he is maybe the only leader in the series we ever see get elected... Would Aegon turn down the crown if someone told him he was really just the lead role in a mummers farce? 

Also, being raised and told the whole time that you are the rightful king might breed a certain sense of entitlement... Cough... Viserys... Cough

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

I like Jon a lot, but come on. Aegon just flips a table when intendedly pushed by Tyrion of all people. Jon has behaved way more bratty than that, while -having been raised as a bastard- he's supposed to be much less subjected to the lordly entitlement mindset. Do you remember how he reacted to being named Jeor's stuard?

People are too harsh on Aegon for something so minor, when he just act just like a normal kid of his age would, in his place.

 

About the rest (septa, humgry and hunted), I do not think that the respective lines would bring Jon to anyone's mind, if taken out of the specific context of Varys' ideal ruler speech. Just juxtapose Arya's relevent passages to Jon's: in Arya's storyline they are important thematic elements of two books; in Jon's they are insignificant, comparatively.

My point wasn't that Aegon wasn't acting like a normal kid, or that Jon was never a Brat... But that the whole idea that somehow Aegon is this paragon of what a king should be is a joke... Jon isn't claiming to be king, or leading an invasion of the country he claims to care for so as to put himself on a throne... He's getting Ceasared in the cold because he's doing what he thinks is required to shield the realms of men

and I see the Arya comparison, and I don't disagree that parts of it fit her, but I don't think she is a candidate for King, nor have I heard anyone suggest otherwise, soooooo