Oathkeeper and the fact that it was forged from Ice. Do you guys think this is plot relevant?

[Morgana Lannister]

Oathkeeper and the fact that it was forged from Ice.  Do you guys think this is plot relevant?

I have been wondering about this for a while, especially since the plot is now looking towards a confrontation between Brienne and Jaime versus UnCat and I just feel that the fact that it was made from Ned's sword is more than a coincidence.

I sort of have a gut feeling, but not as yet terribly substantiated, that Oathkeeper will eventually kill UnCat for good.  I don't expect it to happen straight away when Jaime and Brienne met with her next because I feel there is more to UnCat's arc yet to be revealed but it wouldn't surprise me either if one of her daughters wouldn't be found, at this stage not likely yet though, unless it is Sansa in TWOW and her being the person yielding it.  Saying this because no matter how much we might all love our dearest departed family members I don't think many of us, once some grieving has taken place, would want them back like that.  One of the reasons also that I am dreading how Jon is to come back... but I am digressing.  Also, George said that Sansa will have a "controversial" chapter in TWOW.  This is more likely to involve Littlefinger and probably an attempt to kill Robin or something of that ilk but still I wonder...  Killing her own undead mother would also make her story a little parallel to Tyrion's although her motives would be more morally acceptable, although whether this is relevant or not would depend on who she is destined to end up with or this parallel would not make a great deal of sense.  Also I have an incline that the Hound (still alive and not undead) will kill Robert Strong, another kinslaying parallel...

What leads me to this is a little hard to explain convincingly as it all seems very far fetched and many things would have to come together for it to be the case.  However, we know that you kill Whitewalkers with fire (or obsidian), now how does one kill undeads resulting from the Lord of Light (and fire)'s intervention?  My guess is that, given the name of the series, is ice.  Obviously not ice in the conventional way, like being at the Wall wouldn't kill them I don't think but a sword with a name like that???  I don't expect for a moment either that these two swords forged from one simply named Ice because I guess it had to have a name would be the only thing that can kill them, there has to be something else too but no idea what just yet,   Still, I think this sword is likely to serve a purpose other than just being a token of friendship/love from Jaime to Brienne.

Whatever your thoughts, guys, would love to hear them. 

[Curled Finger]

Ah, the magic swords...can't get enough of them.   Well yah this OathKeeper coming from Ice has to be important.   But I think it's for more than just "from a conquest" or "defeat" point of view.    OathKeeper is or was officially a Lannister sword.   I'm unsure but I think it's now a Tarth sword since Jamie gave it to Brienne.   Widow's Wail is officially a Baratheon sword.   Is Long Claw a Nights Watch or Snow sword now?  What does all this change of house allegiance mean???   By virtue of its name and wielder OathKeeper is destined to become a legendary sword--but Ice was a legendary sword, so what does it mean?  Is VS original purpose indelible regardless how the sword is altered?  Still I think that Widow's Wail is destined to become legendary as well and for little other reason than the name, that is the one I think should lop off LSH's head.   If you look at the math of the swords only 2 are actually really LOST, Bright Roar and Lamentation.    OathKeeper and Widow's Wail do a nice job replacing them.  Still I'm not 100% positive that OK & WW are real VS steel now since Tobho didn't use blood magic to remake them, only spells.   And there was no dragon fire either.    Oh who knows really, but it was a dubious reforging for a man (Tywin) who did not have and desperately wanted VS.   In my karmatic reckoning there is no way the sword of House Stark will serve a frickin' Lannister, but it will undoubtedly live up to its new name and find some Starks.  

By the way, that controversial chapter was already released last year.  There are plenty of threads discussing why this chapter was controversial.   Keep in mind, the King O' The Board did co-write AWOIAF and if he says it you won't find a more reliable source.   

[Morgana Lannister]

Oh, wow, do you happen to have a link to this "controversial" chapter?  I have read the one on George's site with Alayne but there is nothing awefully controversial in that so I take it that this is something different. (Sorry to jump at this but excited about it lol).

Now, I feel you do know a great deal more than me about swords in the SOIAF universe and likely in general, or perhaps I didn't pay enough attention.

I have to agree that Widow's Wail ought to be important too.  Could the widow be UnCat???  I mean this is all far fetched speculation because I haven't the foggiest clue how UnCat could come by this.  Could they act almost as antidotes to each other???

Whilst reading your post one thing that came to my mind was some odd parallel with the way the wands work in the Harry Potter universe.  I am sure this was not intended by Martin but there is a sort of symmetry there (in both verses) that I guess could easily come to a writer.  I mean in HP, Voldermort and Harry's wands share a common source (a specific phoenix feather) we get this same scenario here with Widows' Wail and OK.  Also you talk of allegiance (re swords) which I found most interesting and again yes a bit like "the wand chooses the wizard..." although not exactly but yes, indeed... whose house or person do the swords serve??? I guess the yielder provided he/she is a legitimate yielder (gift would legitimise that in my mind if the gift was given for noble reasons).  [BTW, not suggesting in any shape or form that George took this general idea from Jo, but I find that sometimes plots and themes repeat themselves in stories].

lol my brain is working overtime here but we have a huge cliffhanger with UnCat, Brienne and Jamie.  Okay, theory probably dead before it started because how on earth would Jamie get Widows' Wail in the Riverlands but if not for that, fighting Lady Stoneheart or each other at her command each with one of the swords...  If it were my book I would use this for sure lol.  I just have this gut feeling that one or both of this swords will play a part in making Lady SH dead for good...

Thanks for your very enlightening post

 

[Curled Finger]

Thanks for the reply Morgana.   The VS swords and Dawn are obviously some sort of magic and were the 1st things to really flame my interest after the 1st read.    There are tons of threads regarding what could be Light Bringer--arguably THE magic sword in universe.   I don't think any of the VS swords are LB--jury is still out on Dawn, but Dawn is NOT VS, either.   Dawn is another type of magic. As to swords switching allegiance I think I'll go back to the days when Westerosi Houses were accumulating them.   Farthest north you have the Mormont sword, Long Claw.  These folks are described as impoverished.   VS is invaluable.   How did they get LC?  Then you have the Stark sword, Ice, which has been removed from the game--or has it?   The Ice we saw is NOT the original ancestral Ice, it was a replacement for it.   Lady Forlorn is also a replacement for the original ancestral sword.   Lamentation and Orphan Maker are accredited with some game changing murders, one of a dragon rider during the DOD and one of a dragon in the pits at Kings Landing.   The Targs brought their swords and at the very least Dark Sister was wielded by at least 2 sorcerers.   Black Fyre is the symbol of dissension among the Targs.  There are 2 swords on the Iron Isles, 2 in the Reach.  Of the 12 VS swords, 2 are lost (Lamentation and Bright Roar) and 1 (Ice) was made into 2 (WW & OK).   The math keeps adding up to the companions of The Last Hero.  It is the timing (post Doom, pre Targ invasion) that is so curious as the swords relate to a need for magic swords that potentially smote (sorry, had to) Others.  And that is the mind f**k ASOIAF did to me.   

And yes, not unlike the wands choosing the wizards.   The swords are on the move, changing hands.   I doubt anyone in the history of time has ever been just given a VS sword like Brienne and Jon were.  Keep your eye on Nightfall, the Harlaw sword, and The Reader.   I expect we will see where many of these swords are in TWOW.    

As to WW & LSH, I just like the symmetry of WW being the sword to lop off her useless head.   A bastard of her own dead husband's mutilated sword.   Sorry.  I can't stand her.   That fits my own theory about who will in fact wield WW and why it should be used for precisely this purpose.    WW is 1 of 2 small VS swords a woman can maneuver.   DS is the other.   

And yes, Alayne is the controversial chapter.   Search Elio Garcia's comments about it then I'm sure you will see this interesting chapter in a new light.   Or not, at least he explains why he thought it controversial.   

[Morgana Lannister]

Thanks for the reply Morgana.   The VS swords and Dawn are obviously some sort of magic and were the 1st things to really flame my interest after the 1st read.    There are tons of threads regarding what could be Light Bringer--arguably THE magic sword in universe.   I don't think any of the VS swords are LB--jury is still out on Dawn, but Dawn is NOT VS, either.   Dawn is another type of magic. As to swords switching allegiance I think I'll go back to the days when Westerosi Houses were accumulating them.   Farthest north you have the Mormont sword, Long Claw.  These folks are described as impoverished.   VS is invaluable.   How did they get LC?  Then you have the Stark sword, Ice, which has been removed from the game--or has it?   The Ice we saw is NOT the original ancestral Ice, it was a replacement for it.   Lady Forlorn is also a replacement for the original ancestral sword.   Lamentation and Orphan Maker are accredited with some game changing murders, one of a dragon rider during the DOD and one of a dragon in the pits at Kings Landing.   The Targs brought their swords and at the very least Dark Sister was wielded by at least 2 sorcerers.   Black Fyre is the symbol of dissension among the Targs.  There are 2 swords on the Iron Isles, 2 in the Reach.  Of the 12 VS swords, 2 are lost (Lamentation and Bright Roar) and 1 (Ice) was made into 2 (WW & OK).   The math keeps adding up to the companions of The Last Hero.  It is the timing (post Doom, pre Targ invasion) that is so curious as the swords relate to a need for magic swords that potentially smote (sorry, had to) Others.  And that is the mind f**k ASOIAF did to me.   

And yes, not unlike the wands choosing the wizards.   The swords are on the move, changing hands.   I doubt anyone in the history of time has ever been just given a VS sword like Brienne and Jon were.  Keep your eye on Nightfall, the Harlaw sword, and The Reader.   I expect we will see where many of these swords are in TWOW.    

As to WW & LSH, I just like the symmetry of WW being the sword to lop off her useless head.   A bastard of her own dead husband's mutilated sword.   Sorry.  I can't stand her.   That fits my own theory about who will in fact wield WW and why it should be used for precisely this purpose.    WW is 1 of 2 small VS swords a woman can maneuver.   DS is the other.   

And yes, Alayne is the controversial chapter.   Search Elio Garcia's comments about it then I'm sure you will see this interesting chapter in a new light.   Or not, at least he explains why he thought it controversial.   

Wow, you are certainly a fountain of knowledge when it comes to these swords.  Did you read additional materials aside of ASOIAF or did I just miss tons of stuff?  I am certain that we are going to see a lot more of those swords in action in the final two books.  As for UnCat, I didn't mind real Cat, although flawed especially where Jon is concerned, but UnCat definitely has to die lol  Have no more time for undeads of the Lord of Light that White Walkers   Hope Jon doesn't end up one of them...

Will check Elio Garcia's comments for sure.  I guess I was expecting something really big like Sansa being part of an intrigue to murder her cousin or else ending up killing UnCat or something of that ilk lol.  

Thanks so much again for your insight.

[Curled Finger]

Aw shucks, I know nothing.   If you haven't read all the auxiliary material like The Tales of Dunk & Egg, The Rogue Prince, The Princess and The Queen (even The Ice Dragon) and AWOIAF give them a go.    I especially enjoyed TPATQ, but I'm very much in the minority with that.   These stories add dimension to ASOIAF and shed a good deal of light on many subjects.    There are entire communities of folks here who have formulated whole cloth theory for future events in ASOIAF from these sources in conjunction with the main body.   I dig the swords.   Some folks have found connections to explain everything from the Doom to The Long Night.   And they are a blast to read.   You didn't miss anything at all if you've only read ASOIAF, but you are missing an awful lot of fun and intrigue if you aren't reading all the other material.   You've fallen for Jamie & Brienne's cliffhanger.  I say good on you, this is a fascinating thing to ponder because it could go so many ways.  (Our friends over at Riverlands Web in the general forum have a lot of very smart, very clever things to say about everything going on in the Riverlands-and they're really nice people) Check out Brienne's family tree and maybe the Tully backstory.   I'm finding the past is illuminating the current events in Westeros.  I bet you end up digging it as much as I do the silly swords.    

[Morgana Lannister]

Thanks once again and yes, I think I will start ordering these books.  I knew they existed but haven't gotten around to reading them yet.  Will check Riverlands forum too

[Hippocras]

To answer the OP, yes it is important. I am sure.

One of these days I need to actually write out the longer, supported version of my theory, but in summary:

The story of the sword is wound into the story of the events of the book. We are reading (among other things) about the "forging" of both the hero (AA) and his/her weapon (Lightbringer). This theory assumes that the sacrifices have to do with the events and the relationships at play, and not who holds the sword when the sacrifice happens.

Ned had Ice. Ned was killed with Ice. This was the first sacrifice. This event, symbolically, was the end of "the father" ie. justice, judgement, honour, rule of law etc. and it was the moment when the Stark family was torn apart. Split.

So the Stark sword Ice was split.

The result was two Lannister swords. I believe one or both of these swords will be used at some point to kill a Lannister. Jamie is clearly a potential candidate for this (if he is not the Valonqar). So also is Tommen. I can very easily see that the Tyrells are the new Lannisters, and will betray them echoing the Lannister betrayal of Aerys. I predict Tommen will be killed with Widow's Wail.

There is more, but the rest can not be backed up as well because it relies too much on future events. But that is enough to outline why I think it is indeed very important.

[Curled Finger]

To answer the OP, yes it is important. I am sure.

One of these days I need to actually write out the longer, supported version of my theory, but in summary:

The story of the sword is wound into the story of the events of the book. We are reading (among other things) about the "forging" of both the hero (AA) and his/her weapon (Lightbringer). This theory assumes that the sacrifices have to do with the events and the relationships at play, and not who holds the sword when the sacrifice happens.

Ned had Ice. Ned was killed with Ice. This was the first sacrifice. This event, symbolically, was the end of "the father" ie. justice, judgement, honour, rule of law etc. and it was the moment when the Stark family was torn apart. Split.

So the Stark sword Ice was split.

The result was two Lannister swords. I believe one or both of these swords will be used at some point to kill a Lannister. Jamie is clearly a potential candidate for this (if he is not the Valonqar). So also is Tommen. I can very easily see that the Tyrells are the new Lannisters, and will betray them echoing the Lannister betrayal of Aerys. I predict Tommen will be killed with Widow's Wail.

There is more, but the rest can not be backed up as well because it relies too much on future events. But that is enough to outline why I think it is indeed very important.

Can't wait to read that when you get it posted.  

[Morgana Lannister]

To answer the OP, yes it is important. I am sure.

One of these days I need to actually write out the longer, supported version of my theory, but in summary:

The story of the sword is wound into the story of the events of the book. We are reading (among other things) about the "forging" of both the hero (AA) and his/her weapon (Lightbringer). This theory assumes that the sacrifices have to do with the events and the relationships at play, and not who holds the sword when the sacrifice happens.

Ned had Ice. Ned was killed with Ice. This was the first sacrifice. This event, symbolically, was the end of "the father" ie. justice, judgement, honour, rule of law etc. and it was the moment when the Stark family was torn apart. Split.

So the Stark sword Ice was split.

The result was two Lannister swords. I believe one or both of these swords will be used at some point to kill a Lannister. Jamie is clearly a potential candidate for this (if he is not the Valonqar). So also is Tommen. I can very easily see that the Tyrells are the new Lannisters, and will betray them echoing the Lannister betrayal of Aerys. I predict Tommen will be killed with Widow's Wail.

There is more, but the rest can not be backed up as well because it relies too much on future events. But that is enough to outline why I think it is indeed very important.

This makes a lot of sense to me actually and yes I can see how the Tyrells would take against the Lannisters (which are in a bad way right now anyway).  However, if Tommen dies this would imply that Margarey hasn't been declared innocent or otherwise I cannot really see the power hungry Tyrrells walking away from the throne.  The Valonqar... hard to say; Tyrion is too obvious but so is Jaime in a way, although there is this thing about entering the world together blah... The prophecies all come with a twist so I expect, well an unexpected one here.  

How about Brienne?  Would Oathkeeper kill some of her kin or her herself.  I haven't as yet learn much about this swords but having part of Ice in the same geographical location with UnCat, Jaime and Brienne... and them in such conflict...  My guess is that one of the three at least will die with Oathbreaker but not sure if this is reconcilable with the lore unless Jaime is the one who dies and I don't think (Valonquar) or not his arc is over yet.

[Morgana Lannister]

Can't wait to read that when you get it posted.  

Yes, me too and thanks so much everyone for your contributions, they are appreciated.

[Hippocras]

16 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

This makes a lot of sense to me actually and yes I can see how the Tyrells would take against the Lannisters (which are in a bad way right now anyway).  However, if Tommen dies this would imply that Margarey hasn't been declared innocent or otherwise I cannot really see the power hungry Tyrrells walking away from the throne.  The Valonqar... hard to say; Tyrion is too obvious but so is Jaime in a way, although there is this thing about entering the world together blah... The prophecies all come with a twist so I expect, well an unexpected one here.  

There is still a lot we don't know, making it hard to predict the details. But IMO it might go something like this:

1. Marge survives her trial. Maybe like Cersei she confesses to something minor, while there is no concrete evidence against her for the major charges. Pycelle is dead, so no testimony about moon tea etc. Cersei behaves badly, pissing off the Tyrells even more. The Tyrells take over ever more positions of influence in KL; Small Council, City Watch, Kingsguard. The Tyrell forces however have been mostly sent elsewhere: Riverlands, Stormlands, defending the Reach from Euron.

2. Aegon takes Storm's End...unclear how. But it becomes clear that his idea of marrying Dany is going to fail. Maybe he hears news she disappeared from Meereen and is assumed dead. Or, maybe they have some new reason to be enemies (as opposed to strangers). Meanwhile the alliance with Dorne also fails, maybe because of Elia's antics? Or because of JonCon's greyscale? So Aegon needs allies, and the Tyrells are willing and ready to jump.

[Hippocras]

sorry, my iPad has no way to scroll, so editing long post is impossible. That one got cut off before done.

3. Aegon takes KL with Tyrell help. Part of that help involves "elimination" of the current King. Which also of course widows Marge, making her available to seal the alliance.

 

Another version of course is that Aegon never takes KL, but in any case Tommen would still die because of the Tyrells leaving the alliance for a better deal elsewhere.

 

[Hippocras]

As for Brienne...

Oathkeeper may be in her possession, but it is still a Lannister sword. She is using it to do something by Jamie's request. So no, her kin don't need to die (just as Ilyn Payne's kin don't die just because he was allowed to use the sword for a time).

I am not sure if Oathkeeper will be used to kill a Lannister. If so, Jamie's death is imminent. But my hope is rather that Oathkeeper stays as it is, and maybe becomes the sword of the KG.

That said, provided Jamie is not destined to be the valonqar, it is very very possible that he will die as a result of his capture by Stoneheart very soon, and Brienne may hve to be the one to do it.

[SevasTra82]

I always felt Oathkeeper was going to play some sort of role going forward, but I could never figure out just what.  GRRM could of easily written the sword off, but there is a distinct reason that Brienne has it.  Perhaps it will play a role in Jaime's death?  Or perhaps the entire reason she has it is to give Stoneheart a reason to want to kill Brienne?  Or maybe something totally different?

Either way, I always assumed her carrying the sword was a good symbol of Brienne being an important character in GRRM's eyes, and one that will more then likely survive the series.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 18/01/2016 at 9:00 AM, Hippocras said:

There is still a lot we don't know, making it hard to predict the details. But IMO it might go something like this:

1. Marge survives her trial. Maybe like Cersei she confesses to something minor, while there is no concrete evidence against her for the major charges. Pycelle is dead, so no testimony about moon tea etc. Cersei behaves badly, pissing off the Tyrells even more. The Tyrells take over ever more positions of influence in KL; Small Council, City Watch, Kingsguard. The Tyrell forces however have been mostly sent elsewhere: Riverlands, Stormlands, defending the Reach from Euron.

2. Aegon takes Storm's End...unclear how. But it becomes clear that his idea of marrying Dany is going to fail. Maybe he hears news she disappeared from Meereen and is assumed dead. Or, maybe they have some new reason to be enemies (as opposed to strangers). Meanwhile the alliance with Dorne also fails, maybe because of Elia's antics? Or because of JonCon's greyscale? So Aegon needs allies, and the Tyrells are willing and ready to jump.

I agree here.  I sort of feel that Margarey will survive her own trial one way or another and that the Tyrells will have the de facto power in KL for a short while after.  Definitely in with you in that Dany will not marry Aegon so yes a Tyrell/Aegon allegiance would not surprise me.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 18/01/2016 at 11:45 AM, Hippocras said:

sorry, my iPad has no way to scroll, so editing long post is impossible. That one got cut off before done.

3. Aegon takes KL with Tyrell help. Part of that help involves "elimination" of the current King. Which also of course widows Marge, making her available to seal the alliance.

 

Another version of course is that Aegon never takes KL, but in any case Tommen would still die because of the Tyrells leaving the alliance for a better deal elsewhere.

 

lol yes pain in the butt technology sometimes   I agree with your options here too.  Pretty certain that Tommen will die and both your scenarios sound feasible to me.  We shall see... as I keep repeating

[Morgana Lannister]

On 18/01/2016 at 11:49 AM, Hippocras said:

As for Brienne...

Oathkeeper may be in her possession, but it is still a Lannister sword. She is using it to do something by Jamie's request. So no, her kin don't need to die (just as Ilyn Payne's kin don't die just because he was allowed to use the sword for a time).

I am not sure if Oathkeeper will be used to kill a Lannister. If so, Jamie's death is imminent. But my hope is rather that Oathkeeper stays as it is, and maybe becomes the sword of the KG.

That said, provided Jamie is not destined to be the valonqar, it is very very possible that he will die as a result of his capture by Stoneheart very soon, and Brienne may hve to be the one to do it.

I really, really cannot wait to see how the Brienne / Jamie / Stoneheart thing pans out but yes one is likely to kill the other much as I would cry lol  However this house thing re sacrifice seems now totally at odds with my original idea that it might be used at some point (any of the two swords forged from Ice) to kill UnCat, which I was looking forward to but oh, well, you guys know a lot more about the swords lore and I am incline to think that you are very likely to be right and now my original supposition.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 18/01/2016 at 0:25 PM, SevasTra82 said:

I always felt Oathkeeper was going to play some sort of role going forward, but I could never figure out just what.  GRRM could of easily written the sword off, but there is a distinct reason that Brienne has it.  Perhaps it will play a role in Jaime's death?  Or perhaps the entire reason she has it is to give Stoneheart a reason to want to kill Brienne?  Or maybe something totally different?

Either way, I always assumed her carrying the sword was a good symbol of Brienne being an important character in GRRM's eyes, and one that will more then likely survive the series.

I am hoping that she survives too.  I would be static if both her and Jaime did survive but I fear at least one of them won't, possibly neither... but yes I think so far we all appear in agreement in that Oathkeeper has an important role to play.

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

I really, really cannot wait to see how the Brienne / Jamie / Stoneheart thing pans out but yes one is likely to kill the other much as I would cry lol  However this house thing re sacrifice seems now totally at odds with my original idea that it might be used at some point (any of the two swords forged from Ice) to kill UnCat, which I was looking forward to but oh, well, you guys know a lot more about the swords lore and I am incline to think that you are very likely to be right and now my original supposition.

How and when Stoneheart dies is an interesting question. Some people think her path ends when she gets to avenge the red wedding. That looks like it will probably happen very soon at the Lannister/Frey wedding.

Other people think she needs to live long enough to give Robb's crown to one of her children. That would take a while longer because none of them are anywhere close.

I think your instinct that Oathkeeper might kill Stoneheart is a valid one...but possibly not in its current form, or possibly WW rather than Oathkeeper.

If my theory of the swords is correct there is one final "forging" that needs to happen, and LS may be the sacrifice needed to "temper" that final sword (rather than either of the current ones). In this respect I think it is significant that Gendry, who was apprentice to the KL armorer who knows how to rework Valyrian steel, is with Stoneheart. He is in place to do this final "forging".