Oathkeeper and the fact that it was forged from Ice. Do you guys think this is plot relevant?

[The Egg]

Crackpot theory ahead: read at your risk!

To answer the OP, I was wondering about the importance of this "detail" a few weeks ago, and I found a curious parallelism with the Azor Ahai theory.

Main features of this legend are a Hero, the sword he's forging to fight against Evil, and what he has to do to temper it: the first time he uses cold water, the second a lion, the third his own wife.
Do we know about ANY sword (possibly a magical one) that had to be reforged three times? Not that we know, but look at the Starks' Valiryan sword:

At first it was called Ice (Cold Water!), but its wielder died and eventually the sword itself was shattered by his foes. After a long labour, two swords were made out of it, Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper, both wielded by a Lion.

Well, here's my crackpot: After Joffrey, Jaime will die too, so both "parts" of the sword are "masterless" - and he dies in some way for his own fault or purposefully, so it was the Lion himself who shattered the magic of the sword, as it was for Ned and Joffrey.
Finally, when Daenerys (the wife!) comes to Westeros, she finds the swords and, with her dragons' fire, she's able to melt them (shatter, again!) and make Lightbringer, the sword of the Heroine... even if, actually, she won't be more heroic than anybody else in the war with the Others, but the bards won't tell you this part.
(Even more crackpot would be Dany making not one but three (!) swords with Ice Valyrian steel, for the dragon has three heads, but I don't want to ask myself who the third head might be, so let's not consider that)

I know this is really built on nothing, but the lion reference always made me think about the Lannisters, and Ice is the only magic sword we know of being forged twice, why can't it be reforged again?

[Hippocras]

14 hours ago, The Egg said:

Crackpot theory ahead: read at your risk!

To answer the OP, I was wondering about the importance of this "detail" a few weeks ago, and I found a curious parallelism with the Azor Ahai theory.

Main features of this legend are a Hero, the sword he's forging to fight against Evil, and what he has to do to temper it: the first time he uses cold water, the second a lion, the third his own wife.
Do we know about ANY sword (possibly a magical one) that had to be reforged three times? Not that we know, but look at the Starks' Valiryan sword:

At first it was called Ice (Cold Water!), but its wielder died and eventually the sword itself was shattered by his foes. After a long labour, two swords were made out of it, Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper, both wielded by a Lion.

Well, here's my crackpot: After Joffrey, Jaime will die too, so both "parts" of the sword are "masterless" - and he dies in some way for his own fault or purposefully, so it was the Lion himself who shattered the magic of the sword, as it was for Ned and Joffrey.
Finally, when Daenerys (the wife!) comes to Westeros, she finds the swords and, with her dragons' fire, she's able to melt them (shatter, again!) and make Lightbringer, the sword of the Heroine... even if, actually, she won't be more heroic than anybody else in the war with the Others, but the bards won't tell you this part.
(Even more crackpot would be Dany making not one but three (!) swords with Ice Valyrian steel, for the dragon has three heads, but I don't want to ask myself who the third head might be, so let's not consider that)

I know this is really built on nothing, but the lion reference always made me think about the Lannisters, and Ice is the only magic sword we know of being forged twice, why can't it be reforged again?

you might find it interesting to read the earlier posts on this thread.

[The Egg]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

you might find it interesting to read the earlier posts on this thread.

Sorry, it was late so I missed some of your posts (and the ones I read were about LF), so here's my thought about what you wrote:

• I completely forgot Gendry's boss was the smith able to reforge VS, that's definitely not a coincidence and gives even more "strenght" to this theory, Oathkeeper could be reforged by the BWB, and I'd be curious to read how LSH would react to the fact the sword was made out of Ice
• I totally agree LF is much more likely to fight for the North rather than for the Riverlands, for the reasons you wrote
• ...and same for the idea of Tommen being killed by the Tyrells with Widow's Wail, it makes perfect sense. Especially if my idea of Jaime fulfilling his Valoqar role by revealing he's his father proves itself right, since this would definitely put the Faith against the Crown, and that could bring the Tyrells abandon the Lannisters.
• Last and most important, though, is my thought about your Ice+Dark Sister/Blackfyre merging: why do you think the merging will be with either Oathkeeper or Widow's Wail and not with both "ends" of Ice? If there's magic in the VS swords (and I'm not so sure about that) I can't see how the "Sword of Ice and Fire" could be forged without both ends of Ice (and, also, without dragon fire)

[Hippocras]

7 minutes ago, The Egg said:

Sorry, it was late so I missed some of your posts (and the ones I read were about LF), so here's my thought about what you wrote:

[...]

• Last and most important, though, is my thought about your Ice+Dark Sister/Blackfyre merging: why do you think the merging will be with either Oathkeeper or Widow's Wail and not with both "ends" of Ice? If there's magic in the VS swords (and I'm not so sure about that) I can't see how the "Sword of Ice and Fire" could be forged without both ends of Ice (and, also, without dragon fire)

No worries. Just thought in light of what you said you might find the earlier discussion interesting.

Regarding the Ice and Fire sword(s) proposed: mainly it comes down to 2 things. First, the sword Ice seen at the beginning of the books was really quite enormous. So from a practical point of view it would simply be impossible for anything to be actually added to it and still be a sword a human could actually use. The two pieces back together again on their own would (re)create a weapon that is extremely large and unwieldly. So certainly nothing else could be added.

The second factor though has to do with the bittersweet ending and the nature of the story. I think the events of the books have caused some fractures that are actually permanent. There will be some healing in the end, but also scars from the events of the story. So to me the swords staying fractured but also reconfigured is symbolic of that.

[The Egg]

Ok, that makes sense.
Still, I can't see why reforging OK/WW to merge it to another sword, and even more why Aegon would want to melt a Targaryen Valyrian sword, if not for the magic of a weapon so deeply related to the Song and AA legend, a magic that can't be complete without Ice being complete.
Of course, Ice was an enormous sword and, as far as I remember, Blackfyre was a greatsword of its own, so I'd rather see their Valyrian steel divided into three swords - which is also pretty much useful, if VS prove to be the best weapon against the Others... One of the three swords would end up beyond the Wall, for sure.

As for the bittersweet ending, Ice wouldn't be reformed, its division will be permanent now that its steel has been merged to that of a very different sword, and, most of all, it wouldn't be a Stark sword.
More importantly, though, we're (I'm) looking too much at the Song and too little at the Game, but it's their connection that will make the whole merging possible, and if this is going to happen it'll probably be during ADOS, with a totally different situation. Oathkeeper being within LSH's reach is definitely a hint and it'll probably be the first step of a very long process (I can't see her letting anyone leave with Stark steel, and finding WW to rebuild Ice could even become a goal for her) but there's too much that we can't in any way foreshadow to understand what's going to be a happy ending and what's going to be bittersweet

[Hippocras]

On February 7, 2016 at 0:16 AM, The Egg said:

Ok, that makes sense.
Still, I can't see why reforging OK/WW to merge it to another sword, and even more why Aegon would want to melt a Targaryen Valyrian sword, if not for the magic of a weapon so deeply related to the Song and AA legend, a magic that can't be complete without Ice being complete.
Of course, Ice was an enormous sword and, as far as I remember, Blackfyre was a greatsword of its own, so I'd rather see their Valyrian steel divided into three swords - which is also pretty much useful, if VS prove to be the best weapon against the Others... One of the three swords would end up beyond the Wall, for sure.

As for the bittersweet ending, Ice wouldn't be reformed, its division will be permanent now that its steel has been merged to that of a very different sword, and, most of all, it wouldn't be a Stark sword.
More importantly, though, we're (I'm) looking too much at the Song and too little at the Game, but it's their connection that will make the whole merging possible, and if this is going to happen it'll probably be during ADOS, with a totally different situation. Oathkeeper being within LSH's reach is definitely a hint and it'll probably be the first step of a very long process (I can't see her letting anyone leave with Stark steel, and finding WW to rebuild Ice could even become a goal for her) but there's too much that we can't in any way foreshadow to understand what's going to be a happy ending and what's going to be bittersweet

First of all, if Aegon was gifted Blackfyre as people suspect, he will need to hide what it is. Blackfyre practically screams that he is not who he is claiming to be if people see he has it. So easy enough to explain in his case.

So how to hide it? Well why not merge it with the sword of the King you just conquerred, Tommen "Baratheon"? The merging is a product of the events that lead to it. 

[The Egg]

Oh, yes, of course you're right. Still, if I was Aegon, I'd rather have Blackfyre reforged on its own, or better, keep it somewhere secret unless I'm sure nobody can recognize it. 
Merging it would (sentimentally, at least) destroying its meaning, so what would be the point in having it at all?

[Hippocras]

49 minutes ago, The Egg said:

Oh, yes, of course you're right. Still, if I was Aegon, I'd rather have Blackfyre reforged on its own, or better, keep it somewhere secret unless I'm sure nobody can recognize it. 
Merging it would (sentimentally, at least) destroying its meaning, so what would be the point in having it at all?

Symbol of conquest, and aspirations of a new dynasty maybe.

[Chicxulub]

Widows Wail is going to end up with Arya, who knows that it is half of Ice, after she outgrows Needle.  It is known.

[Hippocras]

8 hours ago, Chicxulub said:

Widows Wail is going to end up with Arya, who knows that it is half of Ice, after she outgrows Needle.  It is known.

I don't see Arya "outgrowing" Needle for the simple reason that Needle is about far more than being a sword. It is deeply personal. She may get her hands on WW it is possible. But by then her ways of fighting will be far more diverse than simple swordplay, so it is playing with swords that she will outgrow IMO, not any particular sword.

[Morgana Lannister]

On 02/02/2016 at 1:21 PM, ladyinblack said:

Hippocras, I like the idea of LS death as what "tempers" Oathkeeper. The sword is now symbolic too of the wolf and the lion working together--or not   Red rippling with black folded layers of Valyrian steel-like all my cooking knives!!!

Widows Wail, I believe is with Loras at Dragonstone. Remember that Tommen sent him off with a sword--not good at finding text but will try. Can't wait to find out what is really happening there. Don't think Loras is finished

 The Tyrells will  go over to Faegon---the Targs made them- Yet, they are battling the Ironborn too now. so many dangling ends to this story

I have lost track on a number of details here I have to say, so Loras has Widow's Wail?  Like you I also think that Loras still has some role to play and yeah, seems very plausible that the Tyrells will go over to Aegon fake or not lol their alliance with the Lannisters will be very much in tatters after the Margarey / Cersei fiasco me thinks...

[The Egg]

On 9/2/2016 at 9:21 PM, Hippocras said:

Symbol of conquest, and aspirations of a new dynasty maybe.

Could be. Still, we started this discussion from a "mythological"/forshadowing/theremustbeameaningforeverithing point of view, so in that sense, having Ice split in 2 and than only one of the two halves being reforged with a Targaryen sword would make it all a very cramped Ice and Fire reference, especially if the sword has to say something about the big story at all.

If the one(s) who wield Ice+Fyre has(have) to be the Hero(s) of the Song of Ice and Fire, they can't be wielding 1/3 of Ice + a not so commonly referenced to Targ sword, can they?
If the reforging has to be a parallel to the AAR legend, half Ice won't be enough.

On 19/2/2016 at 3:47 AM, Chicxulub said:

Widows Wail is going to end up with Arya, who knows that it is half of Ice, after she outgrows Needle.  It is known.

She'll never outgrow Needle, since Needle is not just a sword. That said, I can see WW ending up with Arya, as long as Oathkeeper ends up with Sansa or Rickon... 

[Ninerings]

On Tuesday, February 02, 2016 at 8:21 AM, ladyinblack said:

 Red rippling with black folded layers of Valyrian steel-like all my cooking knives!!!

 

 

Wait, you have cooking knives that look like that!? Where the hell do I get some? Seriously.

[Hippocras]

7 hours ago, The Egg said:

Could be. Still, we started this discussion from a "mythological"/forshadowing/theremustbeameaningforeverithing point of view, so in that sense, having Ice split in 2 and than only one of the two halves being reforged with a Targaryen sword would make it all a very cramped Ice and Fire reference, especially if the sword has to say something about the big story at all.

If the one(s) who wield Ice+Fyre has(have) to be the Hero(s) of the Song of Ice and Fire, they can't be wielding 1/3 of Ice + a not so commonly referenced to Targ sword, can they?
If the reforging has to be a parallel to the AAR legend, half Ice won't be enough.

She'll never outgrow Needle, since Needle is not just a sword. That said, I can see WW ending up with Arya, as long as Oathkeeper ends up with Sansa or Rickon... 

I don't see why it needs to be any particular percentage of Ice to end up with embedded Ice DNA. Think of it like people breeding: none of us are exactly equal portions of mom and dad, but we are still all the children of mom + dad.

As for the Targ swords I do agree that so far references to them have been minimal. Obviously the theory falls apart if neither sword has more of a presence in Winds of Winter.

[shadows and dust]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 4:00 AM, Hippocras said:

There is still a lot we don't know, making it hard to predict the details. But IMO it might go something like this:

1. Marge survives her trial. Maybe like Cersei she confesses to something minor, while there is no concrete evidence against her for the major charges. Pycelle is dead, so no testimony about moon tea etc. Cersei behaves badly, pissing off the Tyrells even more. The Tyrells take over ever more positions of influence in KL; Small Council, City Watch, Kingsguard. The Tyrell forces however have been mostly sent elsewhere: Riverlands, Stormlands, defending the Reach from Euron.

2. Aegon takes Storm's End...unclear how. But it becomes clear that his idea of marrying Dany is going to fail. Maybe he hears news she disappeared from Meereen and is assumed dead. Or, maybe they have some new reason to be enemies (as opposed to strangers). Meanwhile the alliance with Dorne also fails, maybe because of Elia's antics? Or because of JonCon's greyscale? So Aegon needs allies, and the Tyrells are willing and ready to jump.

3. Aegon takes KL with Tyrell help. Part of that help involves "elimination" of the current King. Which also of course widows Marge, making her available to seal the alliance.

Sorry to detour back to page 1, but this bullet point theory is one that's very similar to what I could happening - minus the Dorne fail.

1) Marge/Cersei get through their trials. Marge, easily, Cersei via combat. (unGregor!) Anyhow Cersei is irreparably tainted after the ordeals. The Tyrell's take advantage of the power vacuum and take over most of the important parts of ruling the city. If it were the SATs it would read: Lannister was to Barratheon as Tyrell is to Lannister.

2) Aegon takes stuff. Aegon has Dorne. Aegon marches on KL. Stuff happens that makes it look like Aegon will sack KL no matter what the Tyrell's do. Queen of Thorns makes Tywin-esque decision to open the gates.

3) To prove Tyrell allegiance beyond all doubt, when the conquering heads come into the crown room Widow's Wail finds itself across the throat of Tommen courtesy of (can't make up my mind yet) Knight of Flowers (to complete the Jaime circle) or Margery (because it'd be a total GRRM move).

[ViserionsFire]

On February 7, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Hippocras said:

 

The second factor though has to do with the bittersweet ending and the nature of the story. I think the events of the books have caused some fractures that are actually permanent. There will be some healing in the end, but also scars from the events of the story. So to me the swords staying fractured but also reconfigured is symbolic of that.

I can see this a a great possibility as scars and healing tends to be a theme in the overall story. As I read, it seems that the gulf between those that have power and those that don't is huge, and the story is of how people deal with their power and how those that don't have to cope with their situation. 

But, in both Westerns and Essos, change hasn't happened much in 10,00 years. The status quo has primarily been the same. Does this have to do with natural conditions, magic or both?  In our world, invention and progress are the norm.  In the GRRM's world the status quo may be the norm. The following is regarding the natural state of metal over time:

"Corrosion is nature's method whereby metals and alloys return to their un-refined naturally occurring forms as ores and minerals"

 The above definition of corrosion is the natural transition that begins once steel is created to return to its natural state as an oxide.

 

When “Ice” was reforged into “Oathkeeper” and “Widow’s Wail”, their return to “ice” seemed a possibility.   In the next books, look for “Widow’s Wail” to gradually find the way towards “Oathkeeper.” This would be in keeping, not only with the two swords returning to their natural state, but also maintaining the status quo.

[matsuki]

On 2/9/2016 at 2:20 AM, Hippocras said:

First of all, if Aegon was gifted Blackfyre as people suspect, he will need to hide what it is. Blackfyre practically screams that he is not who he is claiming to be if people see he has it. So easy enough to explain in his case.

So how to hide it? Well why not merge it with the sword of the King you just conquerred, Tommen "Baratheon"? The merging is a product of the events that lead to it. 

Ehhhh, all he needs to do is change the hilt and rename it. Not all the VS swords of the world are documented or are in Westeros.

[Hippocras]

On March 17, 2016 at 8:49 AM, matsuki said:

Ehhhh, all he needs to do is change the hilt and rename it. Not all the VS swords of the world are documented or are in Westeros.

depends how distict the blade itself is. You would not be able to hide Oathkeeper that way for example.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I always thought that Brienne would eventually find and protect the Stark girls with their father's blade (or part of it). The role, I think, is more symbolic than anything. Even after his death, Ned Stark continues to protect his children, at least his blade does.

If not, I can see both swords being returned to the Starks. Bran could wear one, while Rickon takes the second. Or...Perhaps Arya could wield one. I always liked the idea of the sword(s) returning to the family in the end. 

[matsuki]

On 3/28/2016 at 6:41 PM, Hippocras said:

depends how distict the blade itself is. You would not be able to hide Oathkeeper that way for example.

Possibly but that's also assuming no other blades out there share that same red coloring like Oathkeeper....just because we haven't heard of them doesn't mean they don't exist. There are Valaryian steel Arakhs and other objects out there, definitely plenty more unknowns. Besides, unless one draws their sword, all you'll see is the hilt anyway. Hidden enough, no?