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TPTWP Timett

Arthur+Lyanna=Jon

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On January 29, 2016 at 0:28 PM, Anath said:

If Rhaegar and his party indeed fell on Lyanna as she was in trouble (or she fell on them and witnessed something that wasn't meant for her), it makes more sense to take her and hope for the best, hiding from her attackers or just hidind her. You can't really send such a note proclaiming that you're saving it from the king and you certainly can't send it explaining, "Unfortunately. the lady saw something that she really shouldn't have..."

I agree--though I also think Rhaegar might have brought her back to papa only later realizing how much danger she was in. Then got her out.

We've got a few templates--Cat's taking Tyrion in the Riverlands (not many leagues from Harrenhal) after a surprise meeting. And Sansa "capture" after being seduced into thinking the Lannisters (Targ wannabes) were so fabulous. Only to be horribly disillusioned.

If either template holds: the "Tyrion" one throws in the loop of their being attacked and temporarily being on the same side. Then a mad leader (Lysa).

Or the Sansa route--Jaime realizes he doesn't care she's guilty and decides to get her out.

Either way--Rhaegar could be the father. But it would also put Arthur in the running if he's the one tasked, like Brienne, to get Lyanna to safety.

On January 29, 2016 at 0:28 PM, Anath said:

Silence is of vital importance then, just like it was for Sansa and Arya to keep their identity in secret.

Yes--Sansa and Arya are kept safe by disguises, not by holing up in one place. And Sansa DOES go to an unnamed tower, but does NOT stay there. She dons a disguise and goes to a castle with white towers. Like Starfall????

On January 29, 2016 at 0:28 PM, Anath said:

And Arya was so, so close to beinf reunited with her family at one point. By Sandor. Perhaps Rhaegar and his men intended to bring Lyanna to her family but when they were finally able to, Brandon and Rickard were already in Aerys' hands and in doing so, they'd only stir his paranoid mind further?

Yes--Sansa tells Bealish he should have taken her home. Throws her snow castle at him for the offense. And Sansa's not known for pouring water over people's heads at feasts.

I'm assuming Lyanna would be no more pleased than Sansa was. But the danger might have been too great. On multiple fronts.

On January 29, 2016 at 0:28 PM, Anath said:

But for all his jealousy of Elia, JonCon seems to regard her as a victim. He feels guilty for his indirect role in her death. But for Lyanna - nothing at all. She isn't mentioned even between the more important (to him) victims of his failure. As if she wasn't special in any way at all which is very peculiar given the fact that she was the supposed reason for the war and the romantic tale of the Targaryen supporters claim Rhaegar died for her.

Yup!!!

On January 29, 2016 at 0:28 PM, Anath said:

Is it possible that Rhaegar sought a son from another woman but not Lyanna? In this case, he might have ended up with Allyria Dayne. That would fit with the song of the stupid lady who threw herself from a tower, plus the Bael-like motive with the tower suicide with the additional blow of Arthur's death, plus we'll end up with a young woman who's literally "bride of death", connecting her to Dany. She's one of the few things her repeatedly-dead-husband-to-be remembers from being alive. And right now, she's the hope of the Dayne line to continue until Edric reappears or it turns out that he has younger siblings. A little like Bael's son, right?

YUP!!!

It would make a lot of sense. And would fit with the only "death by tower" reference in Feast (the only novel without a direct mention of Ashara) where Arya says:

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead. The lady should go kill the ones who killed her prince. And the singer should be on the Wall. Feast, Cat of the Canals

If Ashara did kill herself over her "prince". . . Allyria's a strong option. 

And it would fit with the Bael echoes, absolutely.

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Sly Wren, on the point of Rhaegar taking her to the capital - it is possible. It might fit with JonCon's memory of Rhaegar's very belated realization of just how mad his father was. Before, he might have believed that he could still work around Aerys to remove him from power but it's possible that something happened that made Rhaegar realized that he totally had no idea just how mad his father was and what he might do with the girl Rhaegar was bringing to him. It might fit with Lyanna being disillusioned, in a Sansa-like manner, by the handsome prince who so valiantly gave her a crown of winter roses and was now abducting her to deliver her to the madman.

 

Rhaegar definitely could be the father. As I said, that's what I believe. But it's very interesting to examine echoes and see how they all fit or not, and how they distort themselves to produce a different plot. Lyanna's total absence in JonCon's thoughts is even more interesting when we see how much he despises Elia for being weak and unable to give Rhaegar more children. One would think that a strong woman who might have given birth to Rhaegar's second son would merit at least a place in JonCon's litany of his "victims". Even Aerys figures there! But no, she's nowhere around. Rhaegar might not have loved Elia and she might have been too weak but just by reading JonCon's PoV chapters, I'd definitely think she was the only woman in Rhaegar's life. Not the one he loved. Just the only one. It's intriguing as well that in his derision of Elia, JonCon doesn't even once mention that she had disappointed his silver prince. To me, it reads like JonCon's anger on Rhaegar's behalf. If we take the three heads thing into account and place it next to Rhaegar's lack of disappointment that JonCon would have noticed if it existed and I'd expect he'd mention in his tantrum over Elia's faults, it looks like Rhaegar got to learn that there wouldn't be three children from Elia, took it in stride and went on changing plans. It fits with Barristan's description of him as able and determined. But it doesn't speak of any inner struggle, love fighting with duty and the inevitable realization that he was placing the wife he was fond of in a bad situation and so on - and I would expect it with Lyanna being thrown into the mess.

 

If Arthur was indeed the one charged to bring Lyanna to safety, in a Brienne-like way, and it was Ashara who was meant to be the womb Rhaegar and Elia meant to use, it makes for an interesting conflict of a human heart - if Arthur didn't know that and learned it later while Ashara herself traveled back to Dorne. Or even if he knew. People don't always do right by their best friends. Arthur himself migh have become disillusioned with Rhaegar and Elia, in a Sandor-like realization that the chivalrous prince was not such a great knight in EVERY aspect, after all. Perhaps he wasn't in a hurry to join Rhaegar back after that? Perhaps he stayed with Lyanna or even Lyanna and Ashara? And only after Rhaegar's death he had a belated regret. Perhaps in such a scenario his sworn brothers wouldn't reject him? They weren't devoid of compassion for human frailty and weakness. They kept Lewyn's secret. Or perhaps Arthur was charged to protect not Lyanna and her child but Ashara and hers? Perhaps he tried to stop Ned and his seven men frm proceeding to Starfall?

 

In such a scenario, Ashara's death would be an ironic echo of Bael's maid in another aspect as well. As you've pointed out many times, the maid's love come with a disclaimer. Ashara might have thrown herself from that tower not out of grief and love over Rhaegar's death, as romantic as it sounds. She might have just felt she had nothing to live for. She was no longer the mother of third head. She was just a woman with a bastard and in even in Dorne, that was not a good thing, especially now that she had lost Rhaegar's protection. Perhaps she even felt her daughter might have a better life, with any rumour dying sooner if Ashara herself died. And Allyria, via Berric, is associated with the whole fire element of the Fire and Blood thing. He seems quite obsessed with her as it's implied women were with Rhaegar. JonCon might not have known for sure what happened to Rhaegar's supposed son. And the fact that Allyria has been told the story of Ned and Ashara's doomed love might be a simple precaution - if she herself believed it and spread it, people might not make the connection with Rhaegar. They'd focus on Ned. Even if Allyria being Ashara's daughter emerged, people would think she was Ned's. That's her best protection against any attempt to find herself used in a Blackfyre fashion or attracting Robert's notice.

 

And even if Ned announced that no, no, Jon is Arthur's kid and not Rhaegar, who would believe him? It wasn't Arthur who crowned her. If Rhaegar was with them when Lyanna was taken, it's be taken to mean that it wasn't Arthur who took her for himself. It would look like a contrived excuse. One that would besmirch House Stark's name anyway and would place Jon's life in greater danger than if Ned simply kept his mouth shut about the whole incredibly sounding line of events, or those he got to know about anyway. Once the world got to know Jon was Lyanna's son, there would always be those who'd try to use him as Rhaegar's, Blackfyre-like. It wouldn't matter if it was true.

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On 25.01.2016 at 1:38 AM, TPTWP Timett said:

It's not really much of a theory yet however I thought if anyone could help it would be here. Basically I'm saying that Rhaegar was acting as a match maker between Lyanna and Arthur because he knew Arthur needed to have a child for the battle for dawn.

And Lyanna was the only fertile woman in the entire world, I presume.

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4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

And Lyanna was the only fertile woman in the entire world, I presume.

No but she is the only o e at the tower where Arthur was hanging out instead of doing his job.

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On 28-1-2016 at 2:16 AM, Sly Wren said:

But--in the Bael the Bard tale, the true ending of the tale (according to Ygritte) is a battle where the Stark in Winterfell kills the father of the Stark maid's child. Then takes a trophy/artifact back to the castle where the Stark maid is. Only then is the full horror of the battle understood. And a woman throws herself from a tower and the Stark maid dies.

This may be a personal bias, since I don't consider any theory 'true' until proven in text (note: proven, not hinted at) and because I don't particularly like the idea of R+L=J. (not that it matters to me, whatever turns out to be the parentage is fine :) )
But just this piece I've quoted from Sly Wren, to me, is about as solid as anything you have to consider with R+L=J. There's a lot of mental gymnastics going on there as well. 

I've only recently come across this theory, but the more I read about it the more I actually think it has as much solid grounds, if less numerous grounds than R+L=J. Like so many posters have already pointed out, the evidence of Lyanna being his mother is stronger than that of Rhaegar as his father. 

Again, I don't care. If it's Rhaegar fine, I'll be a little bummed, but fine. If it's Arthur, fine, could have been foreshadowed further, but fine. Don't want to start anything, or be dismissive of R+L=J, it's a very good theory. But I believe we have to remain open to anything that even remotely makes sense, because GRRM.

Longer comment than I had anticipated, but then again what do I know? People have been debating R+L=J since I was a babe in arms....

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On 25.01.2016 at 5:22 AM, Sly Wren said:

There are some symbolic parallels between the fight at the tower and Mirri's tent ritual. @Kingmonkey 

and  @Pretty Pig here both have posted on the subject. Both are strong arguments for the idea of magic and prophecy around Jon.

As for why the Kingsguard are "at" the tower, nothing in the text says when they got there, or if they were staying there, or if anyone else is in or at the tower. Full stop. Could be they've been staying there with someone in the tower. Could be they just got there. As it stands, we just don't know.

...and you lost me right there.

Yes, we have a pretty good idea what were they doing there. They swore a vow. They are of the Kingsguard. They weren't at the Trident, they aren't with Viserys. They don't flee, and their knees don't bend easily. And they're extremely proud of all of the above.

So - what would they be so proud of in your theory? "We're just passing here/chilling out/waiting for someone/lost and can't ask anyone for directions, 'cause that's how the Kingsguard roll, mothafucka!"?

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I always feel that if jon is son of arthur, then there is a chance that rhaenys and aegon are also his. Maybe rhaegar had a hard time to father children, so who is better than arthur to be father of his children, his best friend and sword of morning plus a sworn KG with violet eyes and possibly silver or gold hair? 

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On February 1, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Anath said:

But it's very interesting to examine echoes and see how they all fit or not, and how they distort themselves to produce a different plot. Lyanna's total absence in JonCon's thoughts is even more interesting when we see how much he despises Elia for being weak and unable to give Rhaegar more children. One would think that a strong woman who might have given birth to Rhaegar's second son would merit at least a place in JonCon's litany of his "victims". Even Aerys figures there! But no, she's nowhere around. Rhaegar might not have loved Elia and she might have been too weak but just by reading JonCon's PoV chapters, I'd definitely think she was the only woman in Rhaegar's life. Not the one he loved. Just the only one. It's intriguing as well that in his derision of Elia, JonCon doesn't even once mention that she had disappointed his silver prince. To me, it reads like JonCon's anger on Rhaegar's behalf.

I like this--and it fits with the fact that we only get JonCon's take in Dance--well into the series after other info has been either given or withheld. Could Martin be wanting to prolong the mystery and thus keep thoughts out of JonCon's head? Sure. But his lack of thought about Lyanna echoes Ned's lack of thought about Rhaegar--at least a bit. 

So, as you say--Rhaegar doesn't seem to have been tortured re: his wife and kids. At least not in the POVs we've seen so far. And, given the POVs we've had so far, you'd think a dutiful man might have shown some strain on this account, especially to someone who seems a bit hyper-aware--like JonCon

On February 1, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Anath said:

If we take the three heads thing into account and place it next to Rhaegar's lack of disappointment that JonCon would have noticed if it existed and I'd expect he'd mention in his tantrum over Elia's faults, it looks like Rhaegar got to learn that there wouldn't be three children from Elia, took it in stride and went on changing plans. It fits with Barristan's description of him as able and determined. But it doesn't speak of any inner struggle, love fighting with duty and the inevitable realization that he was placing the wife he was fond of in a bad situation and so on - and I would expect it with Lyanna being thrown into the mess.

The one part about "inner struggle" that I can see comes in Jaime's memory of Rhaegar in Feast--the statement about making changes and roads not taken. That really sounds like politics and dealing with devil daddy. It might have been about a dragon-baby breeding program, but I highly doubt it.

On February 1, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Anath said:

If Arthur was indeed the one charged to bring Lyanna to safety, in a Brienne-like way, and it was Ashara who was meant to be the womb Rhaegar and Elia meant to use, it makes for an interesting conflict of a human heart - if Arthur didn't know that and learned it later while Ashara herself traveled back to Dorne. Or even if he knew. People don't always do right by their best friends.

Unless Ashara was willing, I have a hard time buying this--without more information. And I could see Arthur (based on the little we have of him) having a hard time with this per se. And we do see Ned's massive disillusionment with Robert--his de facto brother--in part over how Robert treats women. So. . . maybe. . .

On February 1, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Anath said:

Arthur himself migh have become disillusioned with Rhaegar and Elia, in a Sandor-like realization that the chivalrous prince was not such a great knight in EVERY aspect, after all. Perhaps he wasn't in a hurry to join Rhaegar back after that? Perhaps he stayed with Lyanna or even Lyanna and Ashara? And only after Rhaegar's death he had a belated regret. Perhaps in such a scenario his sworn brothers wouldn't reject him? They weren't devoid of compassion for human frailty and weakness. They kept Lewyn's secret. Or perhaps Arthur was charged to protect not Lyanna and her child but Ashara and hers? Perhaps he tried to stop Ned and his seven men frm proceeding to Starfall?

This is workable. Though Sandor's realization is about use of wildfire--about the king. I keep thinking that moment is an echo of Aerys' alienating his most noble KG, Arthur. But, you're right, it could be Rhaegar.

And we also have the break between Jaime and Tyrion--over Tyrion's wife. Given how close Rhaegar and Arthur are said to be, this could be an echo of their falling out, potentially over Ashara. 

We do have Jaime and Brienne choosing to help Sansa together. I guess Arthur might have gotten Lyanna out on his own--but the joint effort seems to fit what we are given about Rhaegar and Arthur's friendship. And that joint effort and Arthur's being with the other two KG in the final battle seems like it fits with Arthur and Rhaegar not being too far on the outs. . . 

On February 1, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Anath said:

In such a scenario, Ashara's death would be an ironic echo of Bael's maid in another aspect as well. As you've pointed out many times, the maid's love come with a disclaimer. Ashara might have thrown herself from that tower not out of grief and love over Rhaegar's death, as romantic as it sounds. She might have just felt she had nothing to live for. She was no longer the mother of third head. She was just a woman with a bastard and in even in Dorne, that was not a good thing, especially now that she had lost Rhaegar's protection. Perhaps she even felt her daughter might have a better life, with any rumour dying sooner if Ashara herself died.

One way or another, I really think Ashara's suicide was a confluence of misery--dead brother, dead lover (if Rhaegar or Brandon) OR leaving lover (if Ned). And, if Arthur is Jon's father, Ned is taking the boy north. Ashara's losing too much for her to bear. It echoes Lysa--though without the excessive breastfeeding. I hope.

On February 1, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Anath said:

And Allyria, via Berric, is associated with the whole fire element of the Fire and Blood thing. He seems quite obsessed with her as it's implied women were with Rhaegar.

1. I had not even thought of the fire connection with Beric. Had only noted his purple shield with white stars behind lightning--a variation on the Dayne sigil (lightning instead of a sword). But you're right--he's a fire-wight betrothed to the daughter of Starfall. Might she also be a daughter of fire?

2. The obsession might also be the Dayne thing, though. People seem to have noticed Ashara. Barristan can still see her.

On February 1, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Anath said:

And the fact that Allyria has been told the story of Ned and Ashara's doomed love might be a simple precaution - if she herself believed it and spread it, people might not make the connection with Rhaegar. They'd focus on Ned. Even if Allyria being Ashara's daughter emerged, people would think she was Ned's. That's her best protection against any attempt to find herself used in a Blackfyre fashion or attracting Robert's notice.

An excellent point--I'd never thought of this, either. Nor seen others argue it, either.

On February 1, 2016 at 4:49 AM, Anath said:

And even if Ned announced that no, no, Jon is Arthur's kid and not Rhaegar, who would believe him? It wasn't Arthur who crowned her. If Rhaegar was with them when Lyanna was taken, it's be taken to mean that it wasn't Arthur who took her for himself. It would look like a contrived excuse. One that would besmirch House Stark's name anyway and would place Jon's life in greater danger than if Ned simply kept his mouth shut about the whole incredibly sounding line of events, or those he got to know about anyway. Once the world got to know Jon was Lyanna's son, there would always be those who'd try to use him as Rhaegar's, Blackfyre-like. It wouldn't matter if it was true.

:agree:

YUP!!! Throw in that Robert would loathe the idea of anyone's having a child with Lyanna other than himself--Jon's in danger by virtue of being Lyanna's son. One way or another, it's a problem. Much safer not to risk the conversations and just claim the kid as Ned's.

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15 hours ago, JonDayne said:

This may be a personal bias, since I don't consider any theory 'true' until proven in text (note: proven, not hinted at) and because I don't particularly like the idea of R+L=J. (not that it matters to me, whatever turns out to be the parentage is fine :) )
But just this piece I've quoted from Sly Wren, to me, is about as solid as anything you have to consider with R+L=J. There's a lot of mental gymnastics going on there as well. 

:cheers:

15 hours ago, JonDayne said:

I've only recently come across this theory, but the more I read about it the more I actually think it has as much solid grounds, if less numerous grounds than R+L=J.

Might depend on what you mean by "numerous." We do have R and L on page together--though the context of the crowning is not yet given. And we do have the "common knowledge" that he took her. 

But we have a lot of symbolism, plot echoes and repeats, and character development (in Jon) that points towards Starfall and the Daynes. As well as what Jon sees and learns. And all the time Martin spends on Daynes in specific and knights in general. 

That evidence of Arthur as father is fairly plentiful--though it's less direct.

15 hours ago, JonDayne said:

Like so many posters have already pointed out, the evidence of Lyanna being his mother is stronger than that of Rhaegar as his father. 

Amen.

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12 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

...and you lost me right there.

Yes, we have a pretty good idea what were they doing there. They swore a vow. They are of the Kingsguard. They weren't at the Trident, they aren't with Viserys. They don't flee, and their knees don't bend easily. And they're extremely proud of all of the above.

So - what would they be so proud of in your theory? "We're just passing here/chilling out/waiting for someone/lost and can't ask anyone for directions, 'cause that's how the Kingsguard roll, mothafucka!"?

1. We know they ARE there. We don't know how long they've been there. Or if anyone's in the tower. Did they just get there and this is a meeting, chance or otherwise? The only place we know they were during the Trident is "far away." Which is a fairly large geographical area.

2. I agree they are proud of not fleeing. But--of not taking out The Usurper on the Trident? They WOULD have, had they been there. They WOULD have killed their false brother (Jaime) and Aerys would reign. They WOULD NOT have yielded or dipped their banners. 

That sounds like anger, frustration, and regret. They failed their king. The ONLY king they mention. Ned brings up "your Queen and Prince Viserys"--not them. They are focused on Aerys and the Usurper. 

3. As for the not fleeing--they are heavily implying, and only just short of flat out stating, that Darry, a professional warrior and master of arms, fled.

Which makes no sense--Darry's a loyal man, they say. And not a KG. But they STILL say he fled with the Queen and Viserys--why? Who was he fleeing if his post was Master at Arms in King's Landing? Aerys

It's not rational. It's not really fair--but these men have been kept out of the key fights. Stopped from doing what they are sworn to do--protect their king. The only king they mention--Aerys. When he needed them most, they were "far away." Darry was there--he had the chance they didn't. So--they say he fled. They are conflicted--they also say he's a good man. But. . . the anger and frustration are clear.

This is Aerys' kingsguard, mad as hell at being kept out of the fight, now face to face with the Usurper's main dog. Wo to the Usurper--and FIGHT!!!

4. So, they are proud to fight--but they are furious and even a bit irrational (see above re: Darry) at being kept away from protecting their king. Could someone be in the tower? Sure. Or not. But given what these men actually say, NOTHING in the text says they've been staying at that tower for any length of time. 

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I like this--and it fits with the fact that we only get JonCon's take in Dance--well into the series after other info has been either given or withheld. Could Martin be wanting to prolong the mystery and thus keep thoughts out of JonCon's head? Sure. But his lack of thought about Lyanna echoes Ned's lack of thought about Rhaegar--at least a bit. 

Actually, we have Ned thinking about Rhaegar more than JonCon thinking about Lyanna. He could have at least given us a hint that Rhaegar wished that he had married someone stronger, anything pointing at Lyanna. But no, nothing. As I said, if I only had JonCon's PoV to go by, I'd never think that Rhaegar felt his marriage was unfulfilling in any way. In fact, I'd think JonCon was so jealous by watching it that he felt driven to think of reasons why Elia was so bad for Rhaegar. That Elia's ill health was no great problem for Rhaegar but JonCon thought it should be. Of course, we know that it must have been, knowing what we know about the prophecy. But it doesn't fit with JonCon's actual narrative.

I am quite curious about the Young Griff/Elia Sand plotline. I'm inclined to think he'll fall for her as an echo of Rhaegar falling for Lyanna but the echo might play out in another way. Rhaegar's son or not, YG is presented mainly by the way he differs from Rhaegar. He's, in fact, the not-Rhaegar. And Elia Sand might be a Lyanna echo but she''s also the not-Elia. The not-Rhaegar and the not-Elia. Sounds more intriguing to me than repeating a straight echo but we'll see. And there is a new KG around...

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Unless Ashara was willing, I have a hard time buying this--without more information. And I could see Arthur (based on the little we have of him) having a hard time with this per se. And we do see Ned's massive disillusionment with Robert--his de facto brother--in part over how Robert treats women. So. . . maybe. . .

You see, the problem is the same one I have with the purity of Rhaegar and Lyanna's love story. It's a relationship where the balance of power is heavily tilted on one side. In this scenario, we have a young girl who served the Crown Princess. If the prince and perhaps the princess asked something of her, she wouldn't feel as much at ease to refuse them as she would feel to refuse a Dornish lord who was, more or less, of equal standing with her. She'd be more inclined to be willing. I can't express it very well but my idea is that she might have been more willing because there was a natural intimidation, even if Rhaegar and potentially Elia didn't mean it like this. It's like Rhaegar and Arthur: there might be friendship but it isn't a friendship of equals. And I can see Arthur, as having experienced it, be extremely aware of how Rhaegar and perhaps Elia's station could influence Ashara's decision to roll their way.

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This is workable. Though Sandor's realization is about use of wildfire--about the king. I keep thinking that moment is an echo of Aerys' alienating his most noble KG, Arthur. But, you're right, it could be Rhaegar.

And we also have the break between Jaime and Tyrion--over Tyrion's wife. Given how close Rhaegar and Arthur are said to be, this could be an echo of their falling out, potentially over Ashara. 

We do have Jaime and Brienne choosing to help Sansa together. I guess Arthur might have gotten Lyanna out on his own--but the joint effort seems to fit what we are given about Rhaegar and Arthur's friendship. And that joint effort and Arthur's being with the other two KG in the final battle seems like it fits with Arthur and Rhaegar not being too far on the outs.

It might have gone both ways. It might have been a joint effort and then Arthur got the realization of what happened to Ashara. He might have stayed true to Rhaegar's orders or taken solo. We don't know what Rhaegar's orders were in such a scenario. Or he might have been forced to stray from them. Or those orders might have been connected to Ashara. At any rate, odds are that Arthur and Rhaegar were allies at least at the end.

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21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

1. I had not even thought of the fire connection with Beric. Had only noted his purple shield with white stars behind lightning--a variation on the Dayne sigil (lightning instead of a sword). But you're right--he's a fire-wight betrothed to the daughter of Starfall. Might she also be a daughter of fire?

2. The obsession might also be the Dayne thing, though. People seem to have noticed Ashara. Barristan can still see her.

 

1. Yeah, "bride of fire" really applies here, doesn't it? Quite Dany-like. It even fits with the silver-haired lord who never came to be. Perhaps that was the son Rhaegar expected and it turned out to be another girl? Or it might have even been Aegon. My vote is still for Rhaego, but there are other possibilities if we include the Dayne context. In fact, in this scenario Allyria would be a distorted echo of all the descriptions made about Dany: child of three (her real parents, her grandparents and perhaps her "brother" who was Edric's father and might have died young after raising her for some time?), bride of fire, bride of death, slayer of lies (like Dany's delusions about her family, Allyria spreads the story about Ashara and Ned which has a high chance to be untrue. Perhaps she'll be involved in the death of Darkstar who covets Dawn and is Arianne's disappointing knight, aka a "lie"?)

2. Definitely.

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An excellent point--I'd never thought of this, either. Nor seen others argue it, either.

I don't think I've ever seen a thread about Allyria being Rhaegar's daughter. It's simply too far-fetched if we take into account the fact that she hasn't been introduced yet. Still, her husband of fire (an interesting counterpoint to Dany's husband who lost his unlife to fire as Beric was granted his unlife by fire) entered the story pretty early on. Are there any such threads?

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On 1-2-2016 at 0:49 PM, Anath said:

It might fit with Lyanna being disillusioned, in a Sansa-like manner, by the handsome prince who so valiantly gave her a crown of winter roses and was now abducting her to deliver her to the madman.

 

This just struck me: at the Tourney of the Hand, in an echo of Harrenhal, Sansa is crowned queen of love and beauty by Ser Loras. Yet if I'm not mistaken, Loras later claims he doesn't remember giving her the crown.
She considered it an important event, yet Loras clearly does not (not really surprising with, you know, the gayness and the whole being a tourney knight thing).
How do you guys think that might relate to the Harrenhal farce? Did either Rhaegar or Lyanna consider the moment to be of greater importance than the other? If so who do you think is most likely to be the 'disappointed' party? 

(just shooting things off the top of my head)
 

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5 hours ago, JonDayne said:

This just struck me: at the Tourney of the Hand, in an echo of Harrenhal, Sansa is crowned queen of love and beauty by Ser Loras.

Nope. Loras did not win the tourney, for starters, he conceded the final joust to the Hound ('cause that "I owe you my life" thing). There was no Queen of Love and Beauty.

But he did give Sansa a red rose, while he gave all other girls white ones, or so Sansa saw. The truth is, nobody except her paid much attention to that minuscule event, not even Loras. Conversely, when Rhaegar had crowned Lyanna, everybody paid attention.

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2 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Nope. Loras did not win the tourney, for starters, he conceded the final joust to the Hound ('cause that "I owe you my life" thing). There was no Queen of Love and Beauty.

But he did give Sansa a red rose, while he gave all other girls white ones, or so Sansa saw. The truth is, nobody except her paid much attention to that minuscule event, not even Loras. Conversely, when Rhaegar had crowned Lyanna, everybody paid attention.

To be fair, this potential champion Loras giving stark girl a special rose thing in a tourney is surely an intentional reminder of rhaegar and lyanna. Sansa technically is the queen of love and beauty. 

If you do not feel it this way, right next to this, LF reminded you this: your mother is my queen of beauty. You looks like her. 

 

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8 hours ago, JonDayne said:

This just struck me: at the Tourney of the Hand, in an echo of Harrenhal, Sansa is crowned queen of love and beauty by Ser Loras. Yet if I'm not mistaken, Loras later claims he doesn't remember giving her the crown.
She considered it an important event, yet Loras clearly does not (not really surprising with, you know, the gayness and the whole being a tourney knight thing).
How do you guys think that might relate to the Harrenhal farce? Did either Rhaegar or Lyanna consider the moment to be of greater importance than the other? If so who do you think is most likely to be the 'disappointed' party? 

(just shooting things off the top of my head)
 

I agree it is a parallel to rhaegar and lyanna. 

And I think lyanna has exact same feeling as sansa. Fall in love with this man. 

And rhaegar is possible only rewarding her bravery, nothing romantic there, like Loras. 

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8 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Nope. Loras did not win the tourney, for starters, he conceded the final joust to the Hound ('cause that "I owe you my life" thing). There was no Queen of Love and Beauty.

Well, you're right of course, no queen of love and beauty. I just wanted to allude to the whole being given a rose (not crown though) thing :).

 

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On February 3, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Anath said:

Actually, we have Ned thinking about Rhaegar more than JonCon thinking about Lyanna. He could have at least given us a hint that Rhaegar wished that he had married someone stronger, anything pointing at Lyanna. But no, nothing.

Ah--I meant Ned's being VERY non-expansive re: Rhaegar. But yes--there's a complete blank re: what JonCon did or did not know re: Lyanna.

On February 3, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Anath said:

As I said, if I only had JonCon's PoV to go by, I'd never think that Rhaegar felt his marriage was unfulfilling in any way. In fact, I'd think JonCon was so jealous by watching it that he felt driven to think of reasons why Elia was so bad for Rhaegar. That Elia's ill health was no great problem for Rhaegar but JonCon thought it should be. Of course, we know that it must have been, knowing what we know about the prophecy. But it doesn't fit with JonCon's actual narrative.

It might depend on what Rhaegar intended to do re: the prophecy. We know he trained as a knight because of something in the books. But what he might have done with Elia's diagnosis--another wife/lover is definitely an option. Or looked to his siblings. Or something else. The fact that Elia's fragility bothered JonCon but not Rhaegar (according to JonCon) is an interesting fact, though. 

On February 3, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Anath said:

It might have gone both ways. It might have been a joint effort and then Arthur got the realization of what happened to Ashara. He might have stayed true to Rhaegar's orders or taken solo. We don't know what Rhaegar's orders were in such a scenario. Or he might have been forced to stray from them. Or those orders might have been connected to Ashara. At any rate, odds are that Arthur and Rhaegar were allies at least at the end.

1. Yes--they seem to have been allies at the end. Rhaegar left them all in Dorne (I assume that's where "far away" was) and doesn't seem to have ratted anyone out one way or another. 

2. But having to use his own judgment and being forced to stray--I keep thinking there's a reason Martin gives us knights struggling with their vows. Jaime, Hound (KG not knight, but still struggles with the wildfire), Barristan, and of course, Arys Oakheart in Dorne. All of them unsure in the face of orders and duty and the situation at hand.So, yes--Arthur, the perfect knight, being in a situation where he has to stray or makes a mistake or something--I really think Martin's setting us up for exactly that kind of revelation. Too many mentions of his fabulosity for it not to be leading somewhere. I think. . . .

On February 3, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Anath said:

1. Yeah, "bride of fire" really applies here, doesn't it? Quite Dany-like. It even fits with the silver-haired lord who never came to be. Perhaps that was the son Rhaegar expected and it turned out to be another girl? Or it might have even been Aegon. My vote is still for Rhaego, but there are other possibilities if we include the Dayne context. In fact, in this scenario Allyria would be a distorted echo of all the descriptions made about Dany: child of three (her real parents, her grandparents and perhaps her "brother" who was Edric's father and might have died young after raising her for some time?), bride of fire, bride of death, slayer of lies (like Dany's delusions about her family, Allyria spreads the story about Ashara and Ned which has a high chance to be untrue. Perhaps she'll be involved in the death of Darkstar who covets Dawn and is Arianne's disappointing knight, aka a "lie"?)

Okay--*slow clap* and *applause!*

I'm liking this idea of an echo very much. It fits with my pet theory that the Daynes are the guardians of the south. And that the Targs are somewhat deluded re: the prophecies. Like Melisandre. Which is why they have the inbreeding and Summerhall and all the rest of it--they chase the prophecy. Like Mel chases it with Stannis. But it's not him. And it's not the Targs. And it's going to get the rest of the Targs killed.

But on Darkstar--I do like @LmL's idea that Darkstar will try to steal Dawn. And possibly succeed. If Allyria were to stop him. . . yes. I can see that.

On February 3, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Anath said:

I don't think I've ever seen a thread about Allyria being Rhaegar's daughter. It's simply too far-fetched if we take into account the fact that she hasn't been introduced yet. Still, her husband of fire (an interesting counterpoint to Dany's husband who lost his unlife to fire as Beric was granted his unlife by fire) entered the story pretty early on. Are there any such threads?

I've only ever seen it argued that Allyria might be Ned's daughter with Ashara. Which is an idea I admit that I like--would also fit with some of the Bael echoes. 

But I've not come across one on Allyria as Rhaegar's--she is fairly present for a kid whom we haven't met. Not as much as Arthur and Ashara, but still. And, as you say, Beric's role as fire lord after being Lightning Lord is well established. . . hmmmm.

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On February 3, 2016 at 10:21 AM, JonDayne said:

This just struck me: at the Tourney of the Hand, in an echo of Harrenhal, Sansa is crowned queen of love and beauty by Ser Loras. Yet if I'm not mistaken, Loras later claims he doesn't remember giving her the crown.
She considered it an important event, yet Loras clearly does not (not really surprising with, you know, the gayness and the whole being a tourney knight thing).
How do you guys think that might relate to the Harrenhal farce? Did either Rhaegar or Lyanna consider the moment to be of greater importance than the other? If so who do you think is most likely to be the 'disappointed' party? 

(just shooting things off the top of my head)

Yes--Sansa's not really "crowned"--but singled out with the red rose. Like an echo of a crowning. An echo Loras doesn't even remember.

Which might fit with Lyanna's crowning. If it wasn't an honor--Aerys' appointing Jaime to the Kingsguard was an "honor" that was a fully intended insult. Given the Stark reaction to that crown, I really think it wasn't an honor. And the Starks knew it somehow.

So, an echo of a "true" crowning. Like Jorah's to his future wife. Or what Barristan intended with Ashara. Those tell us what the crowning should be. In the case of Sansa and Lyanna--something's way off. 

As for who the disappointed party ends up being--I'm guessing both. It all ends with a lot of misery for those they love and their own deaths.

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On 5.02.2016 г. at 2:54 AM, Sly Wren said:

I'm liking this idea of an echo very much. It fits with my pet theory that the Daynes are the guardians of the south. And that the Targs are somewhat deluded re: the prophecies. Like Melisandre. Which is why they have the inbreeding and Summerhall and all the rest of it--they chase the prophecy. Like Mel chases it with Stannis. But it's not him. And it's not the Targs. And it's going to get the rest of the Targs killed.

But on Darkstar--I do like @LmL's idea that Darkstar will try to steal Dawn. And possibly succeed. If Allyria were to stop him. . . yes. I can see that.

 

I haven't read LmL's posts with the attention they deserve but I am intrigued by a description we get very early on in the first book, the looks of the woman with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. She looks like what I imagine a Dayne would look like, in the description of the eyes particularly (Edric's eyes are actually blue, close to violet, so we know Dayne's eye colour come in more than one variery of violet.) Why stars? And she's, of course, the corpse who was the Night King's queen. We know that the Daynes, just like the Starks, have been around (documented, at least) far longer than the Targs. And we know how much GRRM focuses on his characters defining themselves through their choices. Could it be that an ancient Dayne once made a choice that turned them away from the magic of death and left them guard the south and Dawn instead? And for a long time, Allyria was literally a bride of death. Could she be someone's dowfall in some way and would it necessarily be a bad thing? Perhaps it'll be about choice with the Daynes as well. Ned who chose to follow his undead lord (Beric does read a little like an inverted echo of the night's king and he's looking for his "queen", placing her immediately after his very castle), Darkstar choosing to be of the night and Allyria (another teller of a bard's truth, in a way)... what is she going to choose?

If so (the night's queen part), Jon's origin from both the Daynes and the Starks (the subject of this thread, after all) might turn out to be quite meaningful, symbolically, even if he isn't the third head of the dragon. I think Ashara, in particular, had been given too much attention, even by Howland who had no reason to notice her save for her beauty, let alone memorize the men she danced with) to be a red herring or a part of a failed plot. If Allyria is her daughter, no matter who the father is, it only makes sense to tell her about Ashara's doomed love story attaching a name to the lover if the truth is a bad one indeed. Even in Dorne, we don't hear of highborn ladies acknowledging bastards. If Allyria was Ashara's daughter by a random man, no matter if he was Ned, Brandon, or Moonboy, it would only be logical to not mention a love story of hers to Allyria at all. But it might have just been an additional layer of protection for a child of Rhaegar's or perhaps Aerys'. Still, the master of the court Ashara lived in (who could turn her into his whore, per Rhaella) wasn't Aerys.

ETA: It's universally accepted that Dany's vision in tHotU confirms Rhaegar and Lyanna's love story. I wonder, though. Dany is warned that she'd see days that were, days yet to come and days that never were. Her visions start coming in three and I think another interpretation is possible. She sees Viserys with his crown of gold, Rhaego who never was and Rhaegar's death. But that doesn't make real past, future and fake past. If we take the Rhaegar did indeed die saying Lyanna's name, that makes 2 real pasts and 1 fake. No future. And I think the visions between her definitions - daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire - might be meant to mirror the warning. If so, we have: 1) real past, future (Young Griff who'd make contract with the Dothraki and/or Dany before the second Dance of Dragons erupts? I think we're never actually told if he was tanned. Living in hot Essos might make one tan and we know Egg, who was as fair-skinned as Young Griff, turned as brown as a Dornishman while in Dorne), fake past (Dany's own expectations shaped by the romance of Rhaegar and Lyanna that she grew up hearing about?) 2) real past (I think Stannis got fake Lightbringer before Dany entered the house), future, fake past (like Melisande's faulty interpretations of the prophecy, perhaps? The dragon that wasn't meant to come?); 3) real past, future (JonCon or the ironborn?), fake past (Jon's attributions to the Wall were most definitely not sweet to the vast majority of his new brothers). If I am right about this symmetry, Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't a confirmed thing but the blue rose looks like it is, unless it turns out to be something else. The rose must have come from somewhere - and Rhaegar's part is nowhere near confirmed. At the moment, I can't see the symbols leading to anyone else but Arthur. Other clues, yes. As I said, I'm still in camp Rhaegar. But not the symbolical clues.

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