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Arthur+Lyanna=Jon


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On February 5, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Anath said:

I haven't read LmL's posts with the attention they deserve but I am intrigued by a description we get very early on in the first book, the looks of the woman with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. She looks like what I imagine a Dayne would look like, in the description of the eyes particularly (Edric's eyes are actually blue, close to violet, so we know Dayne's eye colour come in more than one variery of violet.) Why stars? And she's, of course, the corpse who was the Night King's queen. We know that the Daynes, just like the Starks, have been around (documented, at least) far longer than the Targs. And we know how much GRRM focuses on his characters defining themselves through their choices. Could it be that an ancient Dayne once made a choice that turned them away from the magic of death and left them guard the south and Dawn instead? And for a long time, Allyria was literally a bride of death. Could she be someone's dowfall in some way and would it necessarily be a bad thing? Perhaps it'll be about choice with the Daynes as well. Ned who chose to follow his undead lord (Beric does read a little like an inverted echo of the night's king and he's looking for his "queen", placing her immediately after his very castle), Darkstar choosing to be of the night and Allyria (another teller of a bard's truth, in a way)... what is she going to choose?

Okay--first up--wow!! :bowdown:

I'm liking this very much. Fits with the illusions to the Barrow Queens. And even to Sansa--a Stark who's both alive and dead via Lady.

Have you read @Voice of the First Men's theory on How Ice Became Dawn?

It might work with some of your ideas above.

And I really like the idea of Allyria's being in a position to choose. I's wondering if we are getting an echo of that in Arianne--her attempt to gain power through intrigue and violence. And using a Dayne (a vile one). Focusing on the politics and grasping power. Vs. what the Daynes and the Starks seem (key word is "seem") to have focused on prior to this: protecting the "realms of men." 

As for Ned Dayne--he followed the undead lord--well done. But left the undead Queen/Lady--another echo of what happened when the Watch was influenced by the Night's queen?

On February 5, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Anath said:

If so (the night's queen part), Jon's origin from both the Daynes and the Starks (the subject of this thread, after all) might turn out to be quite meaningful, symbolically, even if he isn't the third head of the dragon.

On this, you are preaching to the choir! Jon's being half Dayne, half Stark could very well make him magical and important to Westeros. And would fit with his focus on wolves and swords.

On February 5, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Anath said:

I think Ashara, in particular, had been given too much attention, even by Howland who had no reason to notice her save for her beauty, let alone memorize the men she danced with) to be a red herring or a part of a failed plot. If Allyria is her daughter, no matter who the father is, it only makes sense to tell her about Ashara's doomed love story attaching a name to the lover if the truth is a bad one indeed. Even in Dorne, we don't hear of highborn ladies acknowledging bastards. If Allyria was Ashara's daughter by a random man, no matter if he was Ned, Brandon, or Moonboy, it would only be logical to not mention a love story of hers to Allyria at all. But it might have just been an additional layer of protection for a child of Rhaegar's or perhaps Aerys'. Still, the master of the court Ashara lived in (who could turn her into his whore, per Rhaella) wasn't Aerys.

Interesting--and it would fit with Arya's giving the only mention of a lady's suicide by tower in Feast as "the stupid lady killing herself because her stupid prince was dead." 

Ashara's named in EVERY novel except Feast. And the death-by-tower (either via Ashara or Bael's Stark Maid) comes up in every novel--except in Feast, where it's brought up as a lady killing herself over a prince.

On February 5, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Anath said:

ETA: It's universally accepted that Dany's vision in tHotU confirms Rhaegar and Lyanna's love story. I wonder, though. Dany is warned that she'd see days that were, days yet to come and days that never were. Her visions start coming in three and I think another interpretation is possible. She sees Viserys with his crown of gold, Rhaego who never was and Rhaegar's death. But that doesn't make real past, future and fake past. If we take the Rhaegar did indeed die saying Lyanna's name, that makes 2 real pasts and 1 fake. No future.

An excellent point. Though, given that we are only told "a woman's name," we also have the option of its being a real past--but not Lyanna's name. 

On February 5, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Anath said:

And I think the visions between her definitions - daughter of death, slayer of lies, bride of fire - might be meant to mirror the warning. If so, we have: 1) real past, future (Young Griff who'd make contract with the Dothraki and/or Dany before the second Dance of Dragons erupts? I think we're never actually told if he was tanned. Living in hot Essos might make one tan and we know Egg, who was as fair-skinned as Young Griff, turned as brown as a Dornishman while in Dorne), fake past (Dany's own expectations shaped by the romance of Rhaegar and Lyanna that she grew up hearing about?) 2) real past (I think Stannis got fake Lightbringer before Dany entered the house), future, fake past (like Melisande's faulty interpretations of the prophecy, perhaps? The dragon that wasn't meant to come?); 3) real past, future (JonCon or the ironborn?), fake past (Jon's attributions to the Wall were most definitely not sweet to the vast majority of his new brothers).

Very interesting re: Young Griff. I'm a bit skeptical because Dany refers to the vision as a "copper-skinned Lord"--and the copper skin (I think) is how she refers to the Dotkraki. Also, the banner of a flaming stallion he's standing under-would that fit Young Griff?

On February 5, 2016 at 6:32 PM, Anath said:

If I am right about this symmetry, Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't a confirmed thing but the blue rose looks like it is, unless it turns out to be something else. The rose must have come from somewhere - and Rhaegar's part is nowhere near confirmed. At the moment, I can't see the symbols leading to anyone else but Arthur. Other clues, yes. As I said, I'm still in camp Rhaegar. But not the symbolical clues.

On the rose: Martin seems to do his repeats/echoes/paralells by having multiple people play out parts of the old tales,

And I think that's what's happening with Bael in the novels. Ygritte makes a big fuss over Bael's intent--and then how the story really ends (vs. just the baby and the maid). She disclaims the idea that the maid loved Bael.

Lyanna's echoing the Stark maid with Jon and with the roses. And Rhaegar gives them--but we don't see the Bael-like intent.

Baelish is clearly echoing Bael (a bit cute with the names), but his Bael-like intent has yet to produce his seducing the Stark maid Sansa--who clearly echoes Lyanna and the Bael maid.

I keep thinking, therefore, that the role of Bael might be split--the plotter, the "stealer," and the lover/seducer (that oversimplifies, but might serve for now). I do think Rhaegar stole her. But if Arthur was sent to protect her (I think there's suggestions of this in the text), then he could easily be the lover.

So, as you say--the blue rose might not just be a simple marker, given the context. Might mean someone else did the seducing. Especially since Lyanna was likely NOT taken by a lone figure. . . 

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5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--first up--wow!! :bowdown:

I'm liking this very much. Fits with the illusions to the Barrow Queens. And even to Sansa--a Stark who's both alive and dead via Lady.

Have you read @Voice of the First Men's theory on How Ice Became Dawn?

It might work with some of your ideas above.

And I really like the idea of Allyria's being in a position to choose. I's wondering if we are getting an echo of that in Arianne--her attempt to gain power through intrigue and violence. And using a Dayne (a vile one). Focusing on the politics and grasping power. Vs. what the Daynes and the Starks seem (key word is "seem") to have focused on prior to this: protecting the "realms of men." 

As for Ned Dayne--he followed the undead lord--well done. But left the undead Queen/Lady--another echo of what happened when the Watch was influenced by the Night's queen?

:cheers:

I'm currently reading the theory. It's a very intriguing one.

Perhaps Darkstar does fulfill a part beyond his actual deeds. He's directly influencing the events in the "realms of men", and not in a good way, and not through good means.

I never thought of Ned leaving Cat. But you're right, he did and in Cat, we might be seeing another echo. Beric starts out in a way similar to a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, sent to serve the king's justice and protect the people of the Seven Kingdoms, something that he keeps doing, in a way, even after his death. And Allyria and Cat are both his "queens" in different capacities. Allyria is the queen he's chosen, a thing that helps him stay tied to his life as a lighting lord and his humanity - he remembers her and he's focused on wanting to remember as mundane and human a thing as the colour of her hair. She's unknowingly his bride of death since in the lack of evidence pointing otherwise, I accept she didn't know about his resurrection. But at the end, Cat becomes his chosen night's queen when he gives his life for hers through the last kiss - an echo of the Lord Commander who gave his seed and soul to the dead woman who'd become his queen. If this template holds true, Allyria Day-ne, although a bride of death (the dead man) and fire, is, in fact, the bright queen, the queen of day and humanity, while Catelyn is the dark queen, a "bride" of death (bringing death) and night (although there isn't anything sexual in the last kiss, it IS a kiss which brings a certain level of "intimacy".) And she's, accidentally, a Stark. The man who killed the Night's King was supposed to be a Stark. Coincidence?

 

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Interesting--and it would fit with Arya's giving the only mention of a lady's suicide by tower in Feast as "the stupid lady killing herself because her stupid prince was dead." 

Ashara's named in EVERY novel except Feast. And the death-by-tower (either via Ashara or Bael's Stark Maid) comes up in every novel--except in Feast, where it's brought up as a lady killing herself over a prince.

With Ashara being introduced so early and veiled in so much romance, even in Cat's description, I was a little surprised that I didn't see her in Feast - until the song about the stupid lady came along.

 

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

An excellent point. Though, given that we are only told "a woman's name," we also have the option of its being a real past--but not Lyanna's name. 

 

I agree. In fact, with GRRM's propensity for prophecies shooting themselves in the foot, I think there might be even more "days that never were" than we realize. I think those "days that never were" weren't something pulled out of a hat on a random basis. I think they were meant to be, expected to be but never were. Perhaps days shown by false interpretations of prophecies or Dany's own biases? But even if the Rhaegar vision was a real one with the wrong name, it's still a fake one, a day that never was since it simply reinforced Dany's idea of Rhaegar as this brave, gallant prince who fought for his love Lyanna.

 

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Very interesting re: Young Griff. I'm a bit skeptical because Dany refers to the vision as a "copper-skinned Lord"--and the copper skin (I think) is how she refers to the Dotkraki. Also, the banner of a flaming stallion he's standing under-would that fit Young Griff?

I don't know what to make of it either. But I do think it's possible that it shows some kind of future. Young Griff allying himself with those of the Dothraki who are hostile to Dany? A son of Dany and another Dothraki khal? Perhaps the old women were right that the stallion who would mount the world would come from Dany's womb but it wasn't Rhaego, in a Rhaegar (Aegon-wise)-like fashion?

 

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I keep thinking, therefore, that the role of Bael might be split--the plotter, the "stealer," and the lover/seducer (that oversimplifies, but might serve for now). I do think Rhaegar stole her. But if Arthur was sent to protect her (I think there's suggestions of this in the text), then he could easily be the lover.

With the splitting of roles I made in this post, I am not the one to think your idea lacking of merits. Actually, it's a ver convincing one. I also don't think that Arthur loving someone and fathering a child on her would be a stain on his honour in Ned's eyes. Perhaps he saw someone who defended innocents and helped smallfolk as the finest knight ever despite breaking an oath which, BTW, was not the knightly one but merely the KG one? For all his respect for Aerys' KG, I never got the vibe he thought the institution so awesome. He was awed by the men fulfilling the duties at a particular time and out of all of them, he merely thought Arthur was the finest.

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4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--first up--wow!! :bowdown:

I'm liking this very much. Fits with the illusions to the Barrow Queens. And even to Sansa--a Stark who's both alive and dead via Lady.

Have you read @Voice of the First Men's theory on How Ice Became Dawn?

It might work with some of your ideas above.

And I really like the idea of Allyria's being in a position to choose. I's wondering if we are getting an echo of that in Arianne--her attempt to gain power through intrigue and violence. And using a Dayne (a vile one). Focusing on the politics and grasping power. Vs. what the Daynes and the Starks seem (key word is "seem") to have focused on prior to this: protecting the "realms of men." 

As for Ned Dayne--he followed the undead lord--well done. But left the undead Queen/Lady--another echo of what happened when the Watch was influenced by the Night's queen?

On this, you are preaching to the choir! Jon's being half Dayne, half Stark could very well make him magical and important to Westeros. And would fit with his focus on wolves and swords.

Many thanks for the tag. I really like this idea SW and @Anath but of course I would. :)

Wolves bear many pointy ends themselves... fangs, longclaws, one even carries a Needle. ;)

 

12 minutes ago, Anath said:

:cheers:

I'm currently reading the theory. It's a very intriguing one.

:cheers: and thank you. :)

Am looking forward to debating my updated version, but wanted to address this first:

12 minutes ago, Anath said:

But at the end, Cat becomes his chosen night's queen when he gives his life for hers through the last kiss - an echo of the Lord Commander who gave his seed and soul to the dead woman who'd become his queen. If this template holds true, Allyria Day-ne, although a bride of death (the dead man) and fire, is, in fact, the bright queen, the queen of day and humanity, while Catelyn is the dark queen, a "bride" of death (bringing death) and night (although there isn't anything sexual in the last kiss, it IS a kiss which brings a certain level of "intimacy". And she's, accidentally, a Stark. The man who killed the Night's King was supposed to be a Stark. Coincidence?

All brilliant, but I must correct this common misconception. No where in the books does it state that the Night's King was ever killed. Hence, my theory. :devil:

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43 minutes ago, Voice of the First Men said:


@Anath

 

All brilliant, but I must correct this common misconception. No where in the books does it state that the Night's King was ever killed. Hence, my theory. :devil:

Indeed, it's only mentioned that he was brought down. It doesn't make any difference for my idea but it might do so for yours.

BTW, I was also mistaken that the Night King makes an appearance, kind of, in the first book. In fact, it's Storm when we first learn about him. Anyway, the idea of a reversal of the Stark/Dayne dark union into a Stark/Dayne union resulting in something good is an interesting one, IMO.

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1 hour ago, Anath said:

Indeed, it's only mentioned that he was brought down. It doesn't make any difference for my idea but it might do so for yours.

:cheers: yup. It bears some small weight for mine. ;)

Quote

BTW, I was also mistaken that the Night King makes an appearance, kind of, in the first book. In fact, it's Storm when we first learn about him. Anyway, the idea of a reversal of the Stark/Dayne dark union into a Stark/Dayne union resulting in something good is an interesting one, IMO.

Since book one, we have countless mentions of a "King beyond the Wall"... "icy banners" ... and the coming winter/ice winds/etc.... In my mind these are all in references to he who must not be named (Bran the Builder)....

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16 hours ago, Anath said:

Perhaps Darkstar does fulfill a part beyond his actual deeds. He's directly influencing the events in the "realms of men", and not in a good way, and not through good means.

A sort of reverse of the Night's Queen--Arianne chases the beautiful Darkstar--and he helps destroy her lovely plans. As she's brought down by a fellow Martell.

16 hours ago, Anath said:

I never thought of Ned leaving Cat. But you're right, he did and in Cat, we might be seeing another echo. Beric starts out in a way similar to a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, sent to serve the king's justice and protect the people of the Seven Kingdoms, something that he keeps doing, in a way, even after his death. And Allyria and Cat are both his "queens" in different capacities. Allyria is the queen he's chosen, a thing that helps him stay tied to his life as a lighting lord and his humanity - he remembers her and he's focused on wanting to remember as mundane and human a thing as the colour of her hair. She's unknowingly his bride of death since in the lack of evidence pointing otherwise, I accept she didn't know about his resurrection. But at the end, Cat becomes his chosen night's queen when he gives his life for hers through the last kiss - an echo of the Lord Commander who gave his seed and soul to the dead woman who'd become his queen. If this template holds true, Allyria Day-ne, although a bride of death (the dead man) and fire, is, in fact, the bright queen, the queen of day and humanity, while Catelyn is the dark queen, a "bride" of death (bringing death) and night (although there isn't anything sexual in the last kiss, it IS a kiss which brings a certain level of "intimacy".) And she's, accidentally, a Stark. The man who killed the Night's King was supposed to be a Stark. Coincidence?

Given what I just speculated re: Arianne and Darkstar, I don't think it's a coincidence at all--or at least unlikely to be so.

And I like the above very much. 

Would also add the random thought in my head re: Symeon Star Eyes--seems unlikely he's actually got stars in his eyes but is instead Other. But fights and is seen as a knight. Like Beric--a wight (of fire) who remembers or wants to remember what it was to be human. And follow human orders to protect humans. 

Am now wondering if Symeon Star-Eyes' fighting AT the Night Fort was one of the reasons why he could do this. Did it have to do with who/why he was brought back? Like Thoros' one-off with raising Beric--his friend? And Beric's raising Cat, the fallen lady of his fallen Lord? 

Also--Beric's loyalty to Ned--an echo of the tie between the Daynes and Starks? Are the Daynes "followers" of the Starks, or partners? Hmmm.

17 hours ago, Anath said:

With Ashara being introduced so early and veiled in so much romance, even in Cat's description, I was a little surprised that I didn't see her in Feast - until the song about the stupid lady came along.

YUP! And the stupid lady is being sung by a man who should be on the Wall, according to Arya, keeper of the Stark Needle. Tying Ashara's story to the North. . . maybe.

17 hours ago, Anath said:

I agree. In fact, with GRRM's propensity for prophecies shooting themselves in the foot, I think there might be even more "days that never were" than we realize. I think those "days that never were" weren't something pulled out of a hat on a random basis. I think they were meant to be, expected to be but never were. Perhaps days shown by false interpretations of prophecies or Dany's own biases? But even if the Rhaegar vision was a real one with the wrong name, it's still a fake one, a day that never was since it simply reinforced Dany's idea of Rhaegar as this brave, gallant prince who fought for his love Lyanna.

Very likely. As i was reminded of elsewhere, Dany's memory and recollections have been called into question since her first POV. The idea that her reading of the visions and even what she sees in he visions might be colored by the ways Viserys colored her ideas has to be a strong possibility.

17 hours ago, Anath said:

I don't know what to make of it either. But I do think it's possible that it shows some kind of future. Young Griff allying himself with those of the Dothraki who are hostile to Dany? A son of Dany and another Dothraki khal? Perhaps the old women were right that the stallion who would mount the world would come from Dany's womb but it wasn't Rhaego, in a Rhaegar (Aegon-wise)-like fashion?

On the above: 

I have a hard time coming up with a way JonCon would be cool with an alliance with the Dothraki . . .

And I also am currently (subject to change) of the mindset that Dany's not going to live much longer. So, I'm prejudiced against question 2.

But I do think that the Stallion Who Mounts the World didn't "come from Dany's womb" in that sense. I think her losing the baby and Drogo drove her to "wake the dragon"--and become the Stallion. 

As for Rhaegar--before she wakes the dragons, Dany dreams of herself in Rhaegar's armor. I do think she sees herself as hie heir (the last dragon) and thinks she will finally win (her dream on the Trident). But she she raises the visor and sees herself, I can't shake the feeling that's a sign of doom. She's Rhaegar--and what happened to Rhaegar? And she wakes with the taste of ashes in her mouth. . . . 

17 hours ago, Anath said:

With the splitting of roles I made in this post, I am not the one to think your idea lacking of merits. Actually, it's a ver convincing one.

:cheers:

Though I need to be careful not to go nuts with it.

17 hours ago, Anath said:

I also don't think that Arthur loving someone and fathering a child on her would be a stain on his honour in Ned's eyes. Perhaps he saw someone who defended innocents and helped smallfolk as the finest knight ever despite breaking an oath which, BTW, was not the knightly one but merely the KG one? For all his respect for Aerys' KG, I never got the vibe he thought the institution so awesome. He was awed by the men fulfilling the duties at a particular time and out of all of them, he merely thought Arthur was the finest.

Yes--given that Ned openly broke with Robert over Dany, calling Robert a coward in public--all to protect a girl whom (far as we know) he's never laid eyes on, I can see Ned's admiring a man who would break with Aerys to defend Lyanna. If Arthur and Lyanna then loved each other. . . I can see Ned's forgiving Arthur if Lyanna loved him.

And, as you say, he called Arthur the finest knight, not finest KG. It may very well be a distinction without a difference But It also may not.

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On 8.02.2016 г. at 4:06 PM, Sly Wren said:

A sort of reverse of the Night's Queen--Arianne chases the beautiful Darkstar--and he helps destroy her lovely plans. As she's brought down by a fellow Martell.

I like this. And Arianne is fearless, in a way. She doesn't even think that she can fail and doesn't act too smart. Then again, no one ever said the Night's King was smart, I think.

 

On 8.02.2016 г. at 4:06 PM, Sly Wren said:

Would also add the random thought in my head re: Symeon Star Eyes--seems unlikely he's actually got stars in his eyes but is instead Other. But fights and is seen as a knight. Like Beric--a wight (of fire) who remembers or wants to remember what it was to be human. And follow human orders to protect humans. 

I am reminded of Aemond One-Eye. He put a sapphire in his empty eye socket but he didn't come down like Aemond Sapphire-Eye, although he was, physically. You might be up to something. And Beric is particularly interesting. He's more human than the Others and he's more compassionate than your average R'hllor's follower, although he's no longer human and he's closer to R'hllor than any of the priests serving him. Yet, as you say, he was resurrected by both R'hllor's power and his human relationship to his friend Thoros. And he did manage to resurrect Cat who was Ned's lady. Perhaps that's where the priests get it all wrong - they neglect the human aspect. In a way, it's the same with the KG. They take an oath to leave behind the most important thing that defines them as human - relationships and families. And it was Visenya, the ruthless queen, who came up with this idea. Darkly fitting, eh? Another example of how Targaryens took something normal and human and distorted it to serve their agenda. Hmm, perhaps they won't be those great saviors after all? To this moment, the only ones they have saved is themselves. And we never get to know what the Prince Who Ws Promised is supposed to do, supposed to being the key word. As we know, prophecies are a fickle thing and they break. Somehow, I tend to think Rhaegar might not have prized his prophecy so much if he knew it'd end up with his son's head being smashed against the wall.

On 8.02.2016 г. at 4:06 PM, Sly Wren said:

Very likely. As i was reminded of elsewhere, Dany's memory and recollections have been called into question since her first POV. The idea that her reading of the visions and even what she sees in he visions might be colored by the ways Viserys colored her ideas has to be a strong possibility.

More than most characters, Dany changes the world and events about her quite directly without trying to. She's just a great influence. And she has quite the magical pets. I think it's quite possible she changed the visions in the House as well.

 

On 8.02.2016 г. at 4:06 PM, Sly Wren said:

I have a hard time coming up with a way JonCon would be cool with an alliance with the Dothraki . . .

And I also am currently (subject to change) of the mindset that Dany's not going to live much longer. So, I'm prejudiced against question 2.

But I do think that the Stallion Who Mounts the World didn't "come from Dany's womb" in that sense. I think her losing the baby and Drogo drove her to "wake the dragon"--and become the Stallion. 

As for Rhaegar--before she wakes the dragons, Dany dreams of herself in Rhaegar's armor. I do think she sees herself as hie heir (the last dragon) and thinks she will finally win (her dream on the Trident). But she she raises the visor and sees herself, I can't shake the feeling that's a sign of doom. She's Rhaegar--and what happened to Rhaegar? And she wakes with the taste of ashes in her mouth. . . . 

You might well turn out to be right. The matter is, I'm quite sure there were more days that never were than most common theories allow. GRRM is quite consistent that prophecy is a fickle thing and Dany's experiences there are quite focused on Rhaegar who, as we know, changed his mind about the promised prince at least once. And with GRRM's echoing symmetry, I think the vision of the lord was, in some way, a real one. I'm quite sure that the first visions between her definitions are real pasts and the last seconds are future which leaves the last ones to be the days that never were, including Lyanna's name. And yet we know Rhaegar took her. Records don't mention that people said... some said... there were claims... They simply say he took her. What happened then  is the bit that is unclear.

On 8.02.2016 г. at 4:06 PM, Sly Wren said:

Yes--given that Ned openly broke with Robert over Dany, calling Robert a coward in public--all to protect a girl whom (far as we know) he's never laid eyes on, I can see Ned's admiring a man who would break with Aerys to defend Lyanna. If Arthur and Lyanna then loved each other. . . I can see Ned's forgiving Arthur if Lyanna loved him.

And, as you say, he called Arthur the finest knight, not finest KG. It may very well be a distinction without a difference But It also may not.

Ned is indeed honourable and I think that leads us into concluding that he values all oaths the same. But in fact, he values protection most of all. He isn't angry with Jaime for breaking just an oath, I think. Jaime was sworn to protect Aerys and he broke that oath. Ned is a protector in his heart. I think he wouldn't care nearly as much as an oath of chastity being broken as he would for an oath of protection being ignored. We see a shade of this even with Jorah - he was dishonourable, he hurt innocents and Ned's impulse is to protect innocence, so he hates Jorah. I think he wouldn't be nearly as disturbed by a KG breaking his oath for chastity as he would by a knight hurting innocents.

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1 hour ago, Anath said:

I like this. And Arianne is fearless, in a way. She doesn't even think that she can fail and doesn't act too smart. Then again, no one ever said the Night's King was smart, I think.

Yes--more and more I'm noticing echoes of the North in Dorne. Almost like it's the reverse of the north--hot and dry and Rhoynish. But it's also a bastion of some of the "first men" (possibly from a different ethnic group). Instead of weirwoods, they have the history of the Yronwoods--also guardians and tied to sacred trees. And they, too, are sparsely populated and hard to conquer.

So, the idea of a Night's King echo in Dorne makes a lot of sense to me.

And I also think Doran is echoing Tywin's plans with the Targs for his kids. . . 

1 hour ago, Anath said:

I am reminded of Aemond One-Eye. He put a sapphire in his empty eye socket but he didn't come down like Aemond Sapphire-Eye, although he was, physically.

I'd forgotten that one--but yes! An odd move, unless it's his remembering the story. And seeing it (bad pun) as a positive thing. 

1 hour ago, Anath said:

You might be up to something. And Beric is particularly interesting. He's more human than the Others and he's more compassionate than your average R'hllor's follower, although he's no longer human and he's closer to R'hllor than any of the priests serving him. Yet, as you say, he was resurrected by both R'hllor's power and his human relationship to his friend Thoros. And he did manage to resurrect Cat who was Ned's lady. Perhaps that's where the priests get it all wrong - they neglect the human aspect.

I love that bolded--yes! Martin's made it clear magic doesn't work on "recipes." lots of factors go in. But the human intent--in novels that focus so much on knightly ideals, protecting the people vs. protecting the vague oaths--Jon at the Wall, Jaime dressing down the KG over what they did to Sansa, etc.--the idea that the human intent of the magics would be key in how they turned out. . . yes!! I buy that!

Am also wondering if Arthur did hypothetically end up being the father--is this why the tower of joy fight echoes Mirri's tent ritual? The intent to protect and be "honorable?" The fight ends up being like an honorable (if rather pointless) sacrifice? Even though it isn't a planned "ritual?"

Hmmm. . . . I've read a few theories on those parallels, and am still trying to suss it out. But your "human aspect" part may help me bridge the gap . . . 

1 hour ago, Anath said:

In a way, it's the same with the KG. They take an oath to leave behind the most important thing that defines them as human - relationships and families. And it was Visenya, the ruthless queen, who came up with this idea. Darkly fitting, eh? Another example of how Targaryens took something normal and human and distorted it to serve their agenda. Hmm, perhaps they won't be those great saviors after all?

YUP! And yup on Visenya--both the protection of the Wall and the rise of the KG happened under the Targs. On their actions. And the Targs do not seem to have understood that Wall. Nor knights, when it comes to it. Jaime, after being with Brienne and remembering Arthur, dresses down the KG for forgetting their oaths to be knights, vs. KG. That clash--if Jaime sees it, I have a hard time thinking Arthur didn't. And if Jaime acted as a result and tried to help a Stark maid, I can't see why Arthur wouldn't do the same.

1 hour ago, Anath said:

To this moment, the only ones they have saved is themselves. And we never get to know what the Prince Who Ws Promised is supposed to do, supposed to being the key word. As we know, prophecies are a fickle thing and they break. Somehow, I tend to think Rhaegar might not have prized his prophecy so much if he knew it'd end up with his son's head being smashed against the wall.

Yes--Rhaegar keeps coming off as the tragic idealist dealing with a completely non-ideal father--echoed by both Jaime and Theon. And the result is horror. Jaime and Theon pay dearly for this. As does Rhaegar.

1 hour ago, Anath said:

More than most characters, Dany changes the world and events about her quite directly without trying to. She's just a great influence. And she has quite the magical pets. I think it's quite possible she changed the visions in the House as well.

Do you mean "changed them in her own mind" or "actually changed their outcome?"

1 hour ago, Anath said:

You might well turn out to be right. The matter is, I'm quite sure there were more days that never were than most common theories allow. GRRM is quite consistent that prophecy is a fickle thing and Dany's experiences there are quite focused on Rhaegar who, as we know, changed his mind about the promised prince at least once. And with GRRM's echoing symmetry, I think the vision of the lord was, in some way, a real one. I'm quite sure that the first visions between her definitions are real pasts and the last seconds are future which leaves the last ones to be the days that never were, including Lyanna's name. And yet we know Rhaegar took her. Records don't mention that people said... some said... there were claims... They simply say he took her. What happened then  is the bit that is unclear.

One the bolded--yes, I could see that. That the prophecy ends up being true in a way she didn't understand. Martin likes that kind of twist on prophecy (based on his example I read in an interview). Yes. . . I need to keep an eye out for the above.

1 hour ago, Anath said:

Ned is indeed honourable and I think that leads us into concluding that he values all oaths the same. But in fact, he values protection most of all. He isn't angry with Jaime for breaking just an oath, I think. Jaime was sworn to protect Aerys and he broke that oath. Ned is a protector in his heart. I think he wouldn't care nearly as much as an oath of chastity being broken as he would for an oath of protection being ignored. We see a shade of this even with Jorah - he was dishonourable, he hurt innocents and Ned's impulse is to protect innocence, so he hates Jorah. I think he wouldn't be nearly as disturbed by a KG breaking his oath for chastity as he would by a knight hurting innocents.

YUP! There's the moment at the tourney of the hand where the Hound and Mountain are fighting over Loras (a rose maid?? :P). Ned, who was horrified and disgusted over what the Hound did to Mycah, notes that while the Mountain swings everything he's got at his little brother, the Hound AVOIDS swinging for the Mountain's head. Even though the Mountain's helm is off. The Hound focuses on stopping, not killing, his brutal brother. Restraint.

Ned notes that restraint. . . can see a good quality even in a man he loathes for butchery.

The idea that he would honor a man who might have helped/protected Lyanna from those that would have hurt her. . . oh yeah. I can see him seeing Arthur as "the finest knight I ever saw" for that.

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5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--more and more I'm noticing echoes of the North in Dorne. Almost like it's the reverse of the north--hot and dry and Rhoynish.

And also following gender equality. Such a monumental difference can do a lot to obscure some similarities.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But it's also a bastion of some of the "first men" (possibly from a different ethnic group). Instead of weirwoods, they have the history of the Yronwoods--also guardians and tied to sacred trees. And they, too, are sparsely populated and hard to conquer.

There was this mentioning in the world book that although separated by the broadth of the rest of realm, there were actually more similarities between the North and Dorne than there were differences. Or something like that. The similarities part is something I remember. So, why not a similar, like shared, past?

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I love that bolded--yes! Martin's made it clear magic doesn't work on "recipes." lots of factors go in. But the human intent--in novels that focus so much on knightly ideals, protecting the people vs. protecting the vague oaths--Jon at the Wall, Jaime dressing down the KG over what they did to Sansa, etc.--the idea that the human intent of the magics would be key in how they turned out. . . yes!! I buy that!

I wonder if the Faith and the priests of all other gods fail to use the full potential of their own powers because, out of desire to be above human deeds and hearts, they never come around to find the human aspects in the practices of their own faith? I don't think Thoros of Myr was the most powerful of R'hllor's servants, yet I can't think of another one mentioned to bring a dead person back to life. And Beric wasn't even a priest but he brought Cat back. Beric - the fire wight who strove not to leave his humanity and his bright Day-ne queen behind. (Perhaps that's why he died for real when he chose his dark queen at the end? He fought against giving his soul to the otherness even after he stopped being human. In this scenario, he might give up his very unlife but not his soul.) If Melisandre hadn't left Melony behind, might she have been even more powerful?

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Am also wondering if Arthur did hypothetically end up being the father--is this why the tower of joy fight echoes Mirri's tent ritual? The intent to protect and be "honorable?" The fight ends up being like an honorable (if rather pointless) sacrifice? Even though it isn't a planned "ritual?"

There might be something to this idea. I don't believe in Dany's innocence in the whole tent affair. She knew that there would be a human sacrifice but she refused to think about it, IMO. She wasn't just ready to sacrifice her own life - she was ready to sacrifice someone else's, although she didn't think it would be her son's. Still makes her an accomplice in practicing dark magic. But Mirri didn't lie to her. She was clear that the means would be cruel and the result might not be what Dany wanted. Still, she didn't tell her the price. She gave a hint but she never told. Another darkness, veil, shadow, in contrast to the light illuminating the tower fight and particularly Arthur's sword. Perhaps that's why the result was different?

 

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! And yup on Visenya--both the protection of the Wall and the rise of the KG happened under the Targs. On their actions. And the Targs do not seem to have understood that Wall. Nor knights, when it comes to it. Jaime, after being with Brienne and remembering Arthur, dresses down the KG for forgetting their oaths to be knights, vs. KG. That clash--if Jaime sees it, I have a hard time thinking Arthur didn't. And if Jaime acted as a result and tried to help a Stark maid, I can't see why Arthur wouldn't do the same.

Visenya was a queen of great rationality and no heart. Just what a KG is expected to be, IMO. Jaime "failed" in that. I won't be surprised if his ideal. Arthur, was "guilty" of such a failure as well.

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Do you mean "changed them in her own mind" or "actually changed their outcome?"

Changed them in her own mind. I think she was shown the days that never were that she expected to see - and she was powerful enough to force those expectations into being shown to her. Come to think of it, the blue rose in the chunk of ice might be a day that never was in another way. Rhaegar gave Lyanna a crown of blue roses that looked so romantic and they were later known to have disappeared together - an event that, if the Sansa and Arya echoes hold, didn't fill Lyanna with brimming happiness. Perhaps she never came around to feeling the great joy of being stolen by a sad romantic prince, the wilding style. Perhaps the blue rose of the union between ice and fire never bloomed in that ice of politics, madness, and good intentions that might have been in strong disagreement with her own wishes. No matter what the Targaryen loyalists, Viserys and Dany thought. (Or JonCon doesn't even bother to think.)

5 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The idea that he would honor a man who might have helped/protected Lyanna from those that would have hurt her. . . oh yeah. I can see him seeing Arthur as "the finest knight I ever saw" for that.

Especially if he ended up doing the same with Jon.

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On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

There was this mentioning in the world book that although separated by the broadth of the rest of realm, there were actually more similarities between the North and Dorne than there were differences. Or something like that. The similarities part is something I remember. So, why not a similar, like shared, past?

Yup! The World Book also brings up that the stony Dornish in the Red Mountains--Fowlers, etc.--are a lot like the Vale clans. Who we've seen a bit in the novels are somewhat like the hill clans in the North. Bastions of first men--though perhaps of different groups, but all with ancient stories. We've got wargs and winged wolves in the north. The winged knight (who I really think is likely to turn out to be a skin changer, not a literally riding on the back of an eagle he borrowed from Tolkien). And in Dorne--the Sword of the Morning? Some other ancient, magical force?

Also in the north, as Jon tells Stannis, the champions fight each other ONLY with greatswords. Everyone else in the clans fights with rocks and things. But champions fight with greatswords--really makes me think the north has a trace of the Sword of the Morning/Last Hero with his true greatsword.

A lot of question marks in those paragraphs--sorry. But it does seem like Martin is pointing to similarities in the three hill/mountain regions: Red Mountains, Vale, and the North. 

On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

I wonder if the Faith and the priests of all other gods fail to use the full potential of their own powers because, out of desire to be above human deeds and hearts, they never come around to find the human aspects in the practices of their own faith? I don't think Thoros of Myr was the most powerful of R'hllor's servants, yet I can't think of another one mentioned to bring a dead person back to life.

A very good point. I can't think of one, either.

On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

And Beric wasn't even a priest but he brought Cat back. Beric - the fire wight who strove not to leave his humanity and his bright Day-ne queen behind. (Perhaps that's why he died for real when he chose his dark queen at the end? He fought against giving his soul to the otherness even after he stopped being human. In this scenario, he might give up his very unlife but not his soul.)

I'm liking this, too. And had not thought about it, but you are right: Beric is NOT a priest. But is loyal to the Starks, even in his highly altered state. The sworn/loyal knight saving the lady of his lord (I know Ned wasn't his lord, but Ned gave them the initial mission that they seem to want to follow). 

Thoros was also loyal and loving to his friend, Beric. So, yes, NOT giving up the soul. Hmmm. . . Nan's tale about the Night's King says he gave the soul. And that's what split him--a bit like Beric is both alive and dead. But--did his attempt to save Cat break the division? Reunite him with his soul? And is there ANY way I could ask a more unanswerable question?

On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

If Melisandre hadn't left Melony behind, might she have been even more powerful?

 Yes--hasn't Martin said something about Mel's being a highly misunderstood character? Her intense desire to find the savior has split her from her humanity, too. I often think of her as the Night's Queen echo and Stannis as the King. But Mel's like the NIght's King, too. She gave her "seed" in those shadow babies. And her soul? 

On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

There might be something to this idea. I don't believe in Dany's innocence in the whole tent affair. She knew that there would be a human sacrifice but she refused to think about it, IMO. She wasn't just ready to sacrifice her own life - she was ready to sacrifice someone else's, although she didn't think it would be her son's. Still makes her an accomplice in practicing dark magic. But Mirri didn't lie to her. She was clear that the means would be cruel and the result might not be what Dany wanted. Still, she didn't tell her the price. She gave a hint but she never told. Another darkness, veil, shadow, in contrast to the light illuminating the tower fight and particularly Arthur's sword. Perhaps that's why the result was different?

Yes--I feel for both Dany and Mirri in that moment. They are both on the brink. And Dany is still just a kid. But the tent--Dany was warned not to do this. And she is an accomplice as you say. The whole scene is manipulation, sacrifice of someone/something else to get what you want. 

Whereas the fight at the tower--one way or another, it's a fight for honor. Risking one's own life in the fight. It still feels desperate and pointless. But no one's sacrificing someone else (though we still need to find out how Howland helped Ned with Arthur). A straight up action. Which also resulted (a bit later) in the suicide of Ashara (whose name is so like the fertility goddess, Ishtar). The same deaths--fighters and a woman. But in the tower and Starfall, the deaths aren't "taking" lives in a ritual. They are just--tragic. Maybe.

On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

Visenya was a queen of great rationality and no heart. Just what a KG is expected to be, IMO. Jaime "failed" in that. I won't be surprised if his ideal. Arthur, was "guilty" of such a failure as well.

Yup. And Jaime is continuing in that vein--burning Cersei's letter.

On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

Changed them in her own mind. I think she was shown the days that never were that she expected to see - and she was powerful enough to force those expectations into being shown to her.

Very likely. I've also seen it speculated that Cersei does the same thing with Maggy's prophecy.

On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

Come to think of it, the blue rose in the chunk of ice might be a day that never was in another way. Rhaegar gave Lyanna a crown of blue roses that looked so romantic and they were later known to have disappeared together - an event that, if the Sansa and Arya echoes hold, didn't fill Lyanna with brimming happiness. Perhaps she never came around to feeling the great joy of being stolen by a sad romantic prince, the wilding style. Perhaps the blue rose of the union between ice and fire never bloomed in that ice of politics, madness, and good intentions that might have been in strong disagreement with her own wishes. No matter what the Targaryen loyalists, Viserys and Dany thought. (Or JonCon doesn't even bother to think.)

Very possible. And, given that in the Bael Tale, that blue rose was an insult straight up, not a romantic gesture, the idea that the crown was never intended to be romantic in the first place has to be considered. 

@Voice is fond of the theory that the rose in the chink of white ice symbolizes Lyanna breaking through Arthur's white armor. 

On February 10, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Anath said:

Especially if he ended up doing the same with Jon.

Yup. For the man he killed. And the sister he loved. And the family that sheltered them both. Lots of "promises" and a big price to keep them. For honor.

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15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

A lot of question marks in those paragraphs--sorry. But it does seem like Martin is pointing to similarities in the three hill/mountain regions: Red Mountains, Vale, and the North. 

With the importance GRRM gives to legends/history and the parallels you draw here, I am reminded of Alyssa's Tears. In a way, Alyssa comes across as a soulless creature as well, unable to shed a tear for those she loves. The North has the Night's King. Does Dorne have someone lacking a soul as well? Once again, I'm thinking of the corpse queen with eyes like blue stars but that's pure conjecture on my part. Still, could she be the fallen star legend links to Starfall  and Dawn? In a Lucifer-like fashion, I mean.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Thoros was also loyal and loving to his friend, Beric. So, yes, NOT giving up the soul. Hmmm. . . Nan's tale about the Night's King says he gave the soul. And that's what split him--a bit like Beric is both alive and dead. But--did his attempt to save Cat break the division? Reunite him with his soul? And is there ANY way I could ask a more unanswerable question?

The question might be unanswerable but it's a very interesting one. Unlike Mel, Thoros wasn't aiming to create an unlife, a shadow of life, as she aimed for her shadowbabies' creation. IMO, it was his intent to do right by someone he had good, human feelings for that led to this accidental result. Perhaps that was why Beric stayed himself, to some extent. Changing couldn't really be avoided but Thoros' intention was never to change him in the first place, so Beric didn't end up your average mallicious zombie. And with Cat, perhaps he died not only because she'd been dead for too long but because his intention was never to take something from her like the Night's King wanted to take his corpse woman? A good, human impulse to give that let him find peace at the end?

 

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But no one's sacrificing someone else (though we still need to find out how Howland helped Ned with Arthur). A straight up action.

Maybe that's it. Still, I get the feeling that whatever Howland did, he didn't aim to "sacrifice", aka kill Arthur. He wanted to protect Ned and the road to this went through Arthur's heart, head or whatever part Howland took him in. It might have been a sacrifice but it wasn't an intentional one. Just like with Dany - only blood can pay for life but she wasn't actually buying her dragons' lives with Mirri's. That was what she achieved but she was after vengeance, not dragons.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yup. And Jaime is continuing in that vein--burning Cersei's letter.

The ideal of a KG is, in fact, a startingly bland one. The perfect KG should be sex-less, heart-less (not saving the king's victims from the king himself), moral-less (not judging the king no matter what)... did I miss a -less? But duty-ful to no end.  Somehow, I am not surprised that it was Visenya's ideal. In fact, it's almost impossible for a good person to fulfill all the demands. Even if all Arthur did was conspire with Rhaegar, he still didn't manage to stay true to all his white and shiny oaths. No reason to think that he couldn't break a second one after breaking a first.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Very possible. And, given that in the Bael Tale, that blue rose was an insult straight up, not a romantic gesture, the idea that the crown was never intended to be romantic in the first place has to be considered. 

@Voice is fond of the theory that the rose in the chink of white ice symbolizes Lyanna breaking through Arthur's white armor. 

Right, we never get to see what the intent behind the blue crown was. But we know what Dany considered it to be. Given how literally everything she knows about her close family is coloured by Viserys' extremely biased recollection, I'd be surprised if the Rhaegar/Lyanna thing was the only occurence he managed to get straight.

15 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yup. For the man he killed. And the sister he loved. And the family that sheltered them both. Lots of "promises" and a big price to keep them. For honor.

Funny how honour came up last in your reply. I think that's the thing with Ned. He's known to be extremely honourable - and often disparaged for that. But while honour is extremely important to him, it's actually a distant second to protection where he feels one is owed. With him feeling bad for dishonouring Catelyn all those years after the fact, his reaction to her question about Ashara might have comeout not only out of fear for Jon. He might have been truly uncomfortable with helping destroy the reputation of a dead woman who didn't give birth to Jon. He didn't stop people at Winterfell talk about Jon being brought over from Dorne - and if protecting him was Ned's only motivation, he should have. The Tower of Joy is actually located far away from Starfall. The very mention of Dorne, south and so on could be a giveaway but Ned didn't try to prevent it. It was just a particular woman's name he didn't want repeated. Makes sense if he feels uncomfortable with the part he unwittingly played in her death already. Besmirching her reputation - and it would be mightily besmirched indeed since Ashara was far better known in the realm than Wylla who? the fisherman's daughter whose name was what? - might have been too much for him. BTW, I don't know about Ishtar but Astarte who she's likened to was worshipped like a personification of the evening star. Somehow, I don't think that's a coincidence. (Just like I don't think it's a coincidence that Arthur with his white sword bears the name of a king with a famous sword who, in some versions of the legend, was guilty of a sexual sin and even committed a massacre of children, somethig that's decidedly not fine-knightly in my book, no matter how great he'd later become.) With the goddess of love and fertility angle, I am not surprised she was so sought. I'll be very surprised, though, if she had a child who was stillborn. No baby sounds more credible to me. Or a live baby that she might have lost in another way. But not a stillbirth. Of course, those are only my own hunches with no textual evidence.

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On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

With the importance GRRM gives to legends/history and the parallels you draw here, I am reminded of Alyssa's Tears. In a way, Alyssa comes across as a soulless creature as well, unable to shed a tear for those she loves. The North has the Night's King. Does Dorne have someone lacking a soul as well?

Well, Dorne has Ashara (not too far from "Alyssa"), in this case so overwrought that she falls, vs. the waterfall. A human fallen star--from a white sword into the sea. She practically reenacted her family sigil. 

It's a much more recent "legend," but given that the death by tower and/or Ashara shows up in every single book, seems like it is a "legend" in the sense of being a sad tale all know.

On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

Once again, I'm thinking of the corpse queen with eyes like blue stars but that's pure conjecture on my part. Still, could she be the fallen star legend links to Starfall  and Dawn? In a Lucifer-like fashion, I mean.

This fits very well with Voice's idea--the Night's Queen lead to a fallen star (the Night's King before he fell). Throw in Simeon Star Eyes, who seems (very limited info) to be seen as a positive knight--the starry knight at the Nightfort. But it fell--for a while under the Night's King. And is the site a numerous badnesses. Even though it's also the site of the Black Gate and its amazing magic--a fallen place. 

On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

The question might be unanswerable but it's a very interesting one. Unlike Mel, Thoros wasn't aiming to create an unlife, a shadow of life, as she aimed for her shadowbabies' creation. IMO, it was his intent to do right by someone he had good, human feelings for that led to this accidental result. Perhaps that was why Beric stayed himself, to some extent. Changing couldn't really be avoided but Thoros' intention was never to change him in the first place, so Beric didn't end up your average mallicious zombie.

A very good point. Plus, Mel was creating "life" for the express intent of murder. Death, not renewal and growth. Thoros--seems to have been acting out of love and loyalty and a desire for renewal. But un-life can only renew so much.

On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

And with Cat, perhaps he died not only because she'd been dead for too long but because his intention was never to take something from her like the Night's King wanted to take his corpse woman? A good, human impulse to give that let him find peace at the end?

I like it. The Night's King story does make it sound like the King was turned by the Queen and her magics. And sacrifices. Not the case with Beric. That said--the Brotherhood with Stoneheart has been "enslaved" by their loyalty to Beric and Thoros. .  .

On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

Maybe that's it. Still, I get the feeling that whatever Howland did, he didn't aim to "sacrifice", aka kill Arthur. He wanted to protect Ned and the road to this went through Arthur's heart, head or whatever part Howland took him in. It might have been a sacrifice but it wasn't an intentional one. Just like with Dany - only blood can pay for life but she wasn't actually buying her dragons' lives with Mirri's. That was what she achieved but she was after vengeance, not dragons.

Agreed. And it is interesting that by seeking vengeance, she knew how to get the dragons.

Does not bode well for the use of dragons. :leaving:

On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

The ideal of a KG is, in fact, a startingly bland one. The perfect KG should be sex-less, heart-less (not saving the king's victims from the king himself), moral-less (not judging the king no matter what)... did I miss a -less? But duty-ful to no end.  Somehow, I am not surprised that it was Visenya's ideal. In fact, it's almost impossible for a good person to fulfill all the demands. Even if all Arthur did was conspire with Rhaegar, he still didn't manage to stay true to all his white and shiny oaths. No reason to think that he couldn't break a second one after breaking a first.

Yes--a few KG have come to critical "crossroads" in the text so far. And it's always loyalty to the KG oath vs. the horror of what the king is asking--KG or knight? It's almost as if Visenya set up a system that was doomed to clash with the knightly ideals.

Rather like the current iteration of the Watch--if they lose their way and think it's about fighting wildlings, the ideal of protection of the defenseless gets lost in the politics of "my land vs. your land."

And I agree re: Rhaegar and Arthur. One way or another, I really think those two broke from devil daddy Aerys. Arthur was back in line at the bitter end. But that last fight WAS the end. One way or another. Even if they got out, there was almost no way they were going to live to see a Targ restoration or even "justice" for their fallen king. Uh! I keep coming back to it: in Martinlandia, it SUCKS to be a Kingsguard.

On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

Right, we never get to see what the intent behind the blue crown was. But we know what Dany considered it to be. Given how literally everything she knows about her close family is coloured by Viserys' extremely biased recollection, I'd be surprised if the Rhaegar/Lyanna thing was the only occurence he managed to get straight.

I'd feel much more sorry for poor Viserys and his muddled world view if he weren't so vile. But yes--these were two kids clinging to stories that they very likely did not get right. That interp of the crown, the love story. . . I just can't buy it. Especially not with the echoes of Lyanna and Rhaegar in the current generation. And the Bael Tale.

On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

He might have been truly uncomfortable with helping destroy the reputation of a dead woman who didn't give birth to Jon. He didn't stop people at Winterfell talk about Jon being brought over from Dorne - and if protecting him was Ned's only motivation, he should have. The Tower of Joy is actually located far away from Starfall. The very mention of Dorne, south and so on could be a giveaway but Ned didn't try to prevent it. It was just a particular woman's name he didn't want repeated. Makes sense if he feels uncomfortable with the part he unwittingly played in her death already. Besmirching her reputation - and it would be mightily besmirched indeed since Ashara was far better known in the realm than Wylla who? the fisherman's daughter whose name was what? - might have been too much for him.

Yup. For Ned, honor and protection seem to go hand in hand. And one way or another, he wanted to protect Ashara, too. I know Cat's POV is colored by Cat's associations. But, on page, it seems very clear Ned does not want Ashara talked of. At all. The fight with Arthur? Okay. Vague names or unknown women? Fine. But Ashara Dayne--NO.

On February 12, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Anath said:

BTW, I don't know about Ishtar but Astarte who she's likened to was worshipped like a personification of the evening star. Somehow, I don't think that's a coincidence. (Just like I don't think it's a coincidence that Arthur with his white sword bears the name of a king with a famous sword who, in some versions of the legend, was guilty of a sexual sin and even committed a massacre of children, somethig that's decidedly not fine-knightly in my book, no matter how great he'd later become.) With the goddess of love and fertility angle, I am not surprised she was so sought. I'll be very surprised, though, if she had a child who was stillborn. No baby sounds more credible to me. Or a live baby that she might have lost in another way. But not a stillbirth. Of course, those are only my own hunches with no textual evidence.

Ishtar is a cognate of Astarte--all the same basic thing. Which may be culturally ignorant of me--but it really seems like they are the same. Goddesses of fertility, love, war, and sex. Her fall/suicide at the end of a war, jumping from a Palestine Sword--Martin's not being subtle with the symbolism: all has gone wrong with love, fertility, and even war. The Rebellion just set the stage for a new war.  

Interesting on the stillborn child--I hadn't though of that. But I'm wondering--if the world is out of whack, and the Long Night is on its way, might that be why the goddess of love and fertility would lose a child? Which is probably making WAY more of this tidbit than is merited, but still . . . 

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1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, Dorne has Ashara (not too far from "Alyssa"), in this case so overwrought that she falls, vs. the waterfall. A human fallen star--from a white sword into the sea. She practically reenacted her family sigil. 

Agree about the family sigil - and she would have reenacted it even minus the jump in the sea fact. In everyone's mind, at least, she was a "fallen" woman. But that has nothing to do with my point. I see Alyssa Arryn as a woman who showed a stunning lack of emotions and no matter the true details of Ashara's story, she seems to be suffering no deficits in that department. In fact, her problem seemingly was that she was too emotional.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

This fits very well with Voice's idea--the Night's Queen lead to a fallen star (the Night's King before he fell). Throw in Simeon Star Eyes, who seems (very limited info) to be seen as a positive knight--the starry knight at the Nightfort. But it fell--for a while under the Night's King. And is the site a numerous badnesses. Even though it's also the site of the Black Gate and its amazing magic--a fallen place. 

It might even be a darker reflection of the Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa's story. The sword might have been literally "tempered" in the Night Queen/Fallen Star's blood. I am not going into speculations if it really killed her. But then, I've always thought that Nissa Nissa might not have been as willing to sacrifice herself as Azor Ahai was to sacrifice her. (I know, I know, I am no romantic and all.)

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

A very good point. Plus, Mel was creating "life" for the express intent of murder. Death, not renewal and growth. Thoros--seems to have been acting out of love and loyalty and a desire for renewal. But un-life can only renew so much.

Yes, I have forgotten about Mel's purpose. Another brick in that construction? Sounds plausible.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

And I agree re: Rhaegar and Arthur. One way or another, I really think those two broke from devil daddy Aerys. Arthur was back in line at the bitter end. But that last fight WAS the end. One way or another. Even if they got out, there was almost no way they were going to live to see a Targ restoration or even "justice" for their fallen king. Uh! I keep coming back to it: in Martinlandia, it SUCKS to be a Kingsguard.

One of the things that get me all thoughtful about human biases is how Ned despises Jaime for killing Aerys, breaking his vow, but doesn't bat an eyelid about Arthur betraying Aerys, breaking his vow, which Arthur does in every scenario I can come up with, including the Rhaegar and Lyanna love story. I mean, I can't think of a reason why Ned would think highly of a man who spent the war polishing his nice milky-white sword in front of Rhaegar and Lyanna's chamber. He must have known that they were planning to get rid of Aerys - and there was by no means any guarantee that the conflict wouldn't end up with Aerys' very death, the lesser betrayal of the KG aside. The same holds true in the Arthur-Lyanna scenario. I can't think of any reasonable way to explain it except that Ned simply liked Arthur better than Jaime. In the Arthur/Lyanna scenario, perhaps Arthur did something to merit such a distinction?

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Ishtar is a cognate of Astarte--all the same basic thing. Which may be culturally ignorant of me--but it really seems like they are the same. Goddesses of fertility, love, war, and sex. Her fall/suicide at the end of a war, jumping from a Palestine Sword--Martin's not being subtle with the symbolism: all has gone wrong with love, fertility, and even war. The Rebellion just set the stage for a new war.  

Interesting on the stillborn child--I hadn't though of that. But I'm wondering--if the world is out of whack, and the Long Night is on its way, might that be why the goddess of love and fertility would lose a child? Which is probably making WAY more of this tidbit than is merited, but still . . . 

It isn't ignorant of you, it's me going Anat on the thickest volumes of mythologies we have here. Horrible translation, zero editing, half the names gotten wrong... and to top it all, they didn't even finish the series. They left it at K. So I didn't reach for it to make sure that Ishtar was venerated as the evening star, like her cognate Astarte. The evening star. Quite obvious. Ashara is certainly described to have the lustre. Makes me think that besides the love/fertility aspect, she also acted in the war goddess capacity, using the weapons women have in Martinlandia - looks, station, and the head for politics. She just failed at the end. BTW, Harrenhall and Barristan's recollections of "the man who dishonoured her" might fit into the myth of another cognate, Inanna. I can't remember the husband's name right now but when she returned from the underworld, she discovered that he had not missed her at all. Upon this discovery, he was promptly sent to take her place in the underworld. Perhaps the Rhaegar-crowning-Lyanna-at-a-certain-tourney-despite-having-plans-with-our-fallen-star thing? She might have taken it as a dishonour, especially if she was only used to being adored. Your mentioning of Lysa attacking Sansa might be quite relevant. And I never actually got the feeling that Barristan knew who the man was (or that there was a man and dishonour but for the sake of the argument, let's presume there was.) In fact, I never believed Barristan knew for sure that Ashara had a child at all, he only operated on rumours. In this case, Ashara would be both Inanna and her sister in-law (now, that's a name I could never memorize, let alone remember), who offered herself to go to the underworld for a good part of the year so her brother could go back. A devoted sister, right? Of course, this IS making a mountain out of nothing. But I won't be surprised if Martin has such a twist in mind without even needing that particular myth. Ashara/Ishtar/Astarte is obvious and neither Ishtar nor Astarte were known to have sewing and picking flowers as their favourite pastime. They're both ladies with a certain cruel streak.

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On February 14, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Anath said:

I see Alyssa Arryn as a woman who showed a stunning lack of emotions and no matter the true details of Ashara's story, she seems to be suffering no deficits in that department. In fact, her problem seemingly was that she was too emotional.

Ah--no. I meant it as an inverse parallel. Or echo. Ashara's SO emotional she dives and falls. Alyssa--no emotion. And her waterfall doesn't reach the floor of the Vale to nourish it. Both the opposites. Both useless. And now, both associated with the Stark maids--especially Sansa and Lyanna. Sansa--thinks of throwing herself from a tower after Ned's murder but just can't do it. Who then witnesses Lysa's death. And who also is seen as stony and silent in the face of her family's destruction.

On February 14, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Anath said:

It might even be a darker reflection of the Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa's story. The sword might have been literally "tempered" in the Night Queen/Fallen Star's blood. I am not going into speculations if it really killed her. But then, I've always thought that Nissa Nissa might not have been as willing to sacrifice herself as Azor Ahai was to sacrifice her. (I know, I know, I am no romantic and all.)

I'm not romantic on this score, either. Human sacrifice is an abomination in these novels. Davos has that right. No matter how fabulous the sword is supposed to be. Which is one reason I'm currently doubting the AA story is truly about a heroic blade at all. 

On February 14, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Anath said:

I can't think of any reasonable way to explain it except that Ned simply liked Arthur better than Jaime. In the Arthur/Lyanna scenario, perhaps Arthur did something to merit such a distinction?

I'm with you on this--Ned's statement to Bran seems to imply Arthur did something really worth Ned's notice. Despite all the mess with Rhaegar (one way or another).

I'm still on the theory that Jaime echoes Rhaegar (in places) and Brienne echoes Arthur (in places). And that they might have gotten Lyanna away from Aerys. Since Aerys has the Bael-like motive for stealing an enemy's child. As well as the precedent for doing so. If that metaphor holds--I can definitely see Ned's thinking highly of a man who would break from his king to protect an innocent girl. As Ned breaks from Robert over Dany.

On February 14, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Anath said:

It isn't ignorant of you, it's me going Anat on the thickest volumes of mythologies we have here. Horrible translation, zero editing, half the names gotten wrong... and to top it all, they didn't even finish the series. They left it at K.

HA! So, does that mean they can deny anything past K existed? No Zeus?

On February 14, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Anath said:

So I didn't reach for it to make sure that Ishtar was venerated as the evening star, like her cognate Astarte. The evening star. Quite obvious. Ashara is certainly described to have the lustre. Makes me think that besides the love/fertility aspect, she also acted in the war goddess capacity, using the weapons women have in Martinlandia - looks, station, and the head for politics. She just failed at the end.

:agree:

On February 14, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Anath said:

BTW, Harrenhall and Barristan's recollections of "the man who dishonoured her" might fit into the myth of another cognate, Inanna. I can't remember the husband's name right now but when she returned from the underworld, she discovered that he had not missed her at all. Upon this discovery, he was promptly sent to take her place in the underworld. Perhaps the Rhaegar-crowning-Lyanna-at-a-certain-tourney-despite-having-plans-with-our-fallen-star thing? She might have taken it as a dishonour, especially if she was only used to being adored.

This is one angle on the "dishonored" I'd not thought of or sees elsewhere--but I like it. 

On February 14, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Anath said:

Your mentioning of Lysa attacking Sansa might be quite relevant. And I never actually got the feeling that Barristan knew who the man was (or that there was a man and dishonour but for the sake of the argument, let's presume there was.) In fact, I never believed Barristan knew for sure that Ashara had a child at all, he only operated on rumours. In this case, Ashara would be both Inanna and her sister in-law (now, that's a name I could never memorize, let alone remember), who offered herself to go to the underworld for a good part of the year so her brother could go back. A devoted sister, right? Of course, this IS making a mountain out of nothing. But I won't be surprised if Martin has such a twist in mind without even needing that particular myth. Ashara/Ishtar/Astarte is obvious and neither Ishtar nor Astarte were known to have sewing and picking flowers as their favourite pastime. They're both ladies with a certain cruel streak.

Okay--this is fabulous. You and @Lady Dyanna need to read each other's arguments. Your minds work similarly re: echoes and connections. IE: Lady D's thread on the Lysa Sansa fight chapter here.

Okay--on point: so, again, Lyanna would end up being "sister" and "rival" here, yes? And, like Lysa, there'd be no way to win. Hmm. Would also play in nicely to Ned's refusal to have Ashara spoken of. 

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23 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Ah--no. I meant it as an inverse parallel. Or echo. Ashara's SO emotional she dives and falls. Alyssa--no emotion. And her waterfall doesn't reach the floor of the Vale to nourish it. Both the opposites. Both useless. And now, both associated with the Stark maids--especially Sansa and Lyanna. Sansa--thinks of throwing herself from a tower after Ned's murder but just can't do it. Who then witnesses Lysa's death. And who also is seen as stony and silent in the face of her family's destruction.

Ah, I see. I didn't think of it like that because Alyssa is - well, half-legendary. Like the North's Night King. Ashara is very much real, like, documented. I was looking more for shared stories and legends that could be established for the North, the Vale, and Dorne.

23 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm not romantic on this score, either. Human sacrifice is an abomination in these novels. Davos has that right.

One of the 999999 reasons I love Davos.

23 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

HA! So, does that mean they can deny anything past K existed? No Zeus?

He exists. In my language, Z comes before K. No Paris, though. Poor Helen is doomed to stay alone forever. No Hera either -  Zeus would likely throw a party that I'd like to see over this one. After all, Rick Riordan claims that Olympian parties rock.

23 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

This is one angle on the "dishonored" I'd not thought of or sees elsewhere--but I like it. 

It'll be darkly ironic because Ashara wouldn't be dishonoured the way Barristan thought but she might feel it like a dishonour anyway. In fact, the more I think of it, the more I hesitate to claim it would only be her vanity. If Rhaegar had already bedded her at the time, what with frail wife getting pregnant almost immediately and likely not up for any bedsport for an additional half a year later, he had practically used Ashara and threw her away without warning - at least, that would be how she'd likely perceive it.

23 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--this is fabulous. You and @Lady Dyanna need to read each other's arguments. Your minds work similarly re: echoes and connections. IE: Lady D's thread on the Lysa Sansa fight chapter here.

Okay--on point: so, again, Lyanna would end up being "sister" and "rival" here, yes? And, like Lysa, there'd be no way to win. Hmm. Would also play in nicely to Ned's refusal to have Ashara spoken of. 

I'll have a look. Thanks!

Yes, Lyanna might be the "rival" here. But I think it's more complex than this. I think that if the Sansa echo holds true, Lyanna and Ashara alternate roles to both fit Lysa. I'd have no trouble with casting Ashara in Lysa's role but there are three facts that point me at this not being the case. First, Ned truly looks like he wants to protect Ashara as well as Jon to me. If she had tried to harm Lyanna, I guess he'd have much less scruples to cast her as Jon's supposed mother or at least, a viable possibility, especially with the Daynes not likely to contradict him.

Second, Howland Reed. By all accounts, he seems to be the person who's currenly most knowledgeable about Lyanna's death - and he gives us some interesting hints, like Lyanna NOT crying at Rhaegar's song and pouring wine over Benjen's head and Ashara being so beautiful and romantic. There's no hint of evil about her in his words, just admiration.

Third, Ned directly claims Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early grave. In the Arthur-Lyanna scenario there's no way it had anything to do with the KotLT. This was long gone and forgotten. But I take Ned's words to mean that Lyanna actually played a part in her own death. She was a victim, yes, but also a perpetrator. We're given an example of how she acts: she "attacks" without thinking, re: Benjen. My guess would be that with Ashara and Lyanna both being kept away from the eyes of the majority of the people in Starfall, they might have been forced into uncomfortable closeness. Even if the Rhaegar matter had already been settled and Lyanna was no rival on this front, they might have been simply too different to live close to each other. Sometimes, it's hard even for sisters. (Sansa and Arya, Ishtar and Ereshkigal.) Perhaps Ashara truly thought that Lyanna's return to her brothers could end the war and despised her for staying at Starfall, as irrational as it was? And Lyanna, who disliked the fact that Robert had fathered a child on someone in the Vale thought the presumably pregnant or recently given birth unwed Ashara a married prince's whore? (With Lyanna, it might have been different in her own eyes. Arthur had no other woman, just his oaths to a mad and dangerous king who had murdered Lyanna's own father and brother,) Perhaps the news of Rhaegar's death followed by Elia's end, her children's deaths and finally Arthur's, proven by the return of Dawn, finally made the tensions escalate? It might have been Lyanna who reacted to an insult by a shove, flinging a glass of water in Ashara's face  or something else (something that let out her inability to control her temper, aka wolf blood) that , in both women's agitated state, escalated in a fight causing Ashara's death and the birth of Lyanna's child in the immediate aftermath. (If that was indeed what killed her. There's the tiniest possibility that her bed of blood was caused by an actual wound. The direwolf in the beginning of the series died with her newborn cubs close by but it wasn't their birth that killed her.)

If Ned tried to prevent the fight and/or tried to save Ashara, that might be a reason for the Dayne's respect. BTW, I am not sure that Ned Dayne was named after Ned Stark, no matter how deep the gratitude was. Gratitude is different from warm feelings. I suspect that Edric Dayne might be a reference to Eldric Shadowchaser. What chases shadows away better than light? And the Daynes conveniently have a blade aligt with light.

Perhaps that was another reason for Lyanna's fear? Perhaps she feared that not only Robert and those who'd use Jon as Rhaegar's would be a threat but the boy's very own family if they were angry with her over the part she might have played in Ashara's death, no matter that she never meant for the other woman to die? (Like Sansa never meant for her father to die.) That might have been the best compromise for the Daynes as well: Arthur's son would be cared for  and they woudn't have to deal with raising the child of the girl who was involved in Ashara's death.

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22 hours ago, Anath said:

Ah, I see. I didn't think of it like that because Alyssa is - well, half-legendary. Like the North's Night King. Ashara is very much real, like, documented. I was looking more for shared stories and legends that could be established for the North, the Vale, and Dorne.

Very true. Would only suggest that Ashara's tale seems to have reached 'legend" status in the novels--comes up a lot for a dead lady in Dorne.

22 hours ago, Anath said:

One of the 999999 reasons I love Davos.

Amen!!

22 hours ago, Anath said:

He exists. In my language, Z comes before K. No Paris, though. Poor Helen is doomed to stay alone forever. No Hera either -  Zeus would likely throw a party that I'd like to see over this one. After all, Rick Riordan claims that Olympian parties rock.

HA! So, perhaps Zeus is king of the gods after all if he pulled this off. So--the moral of the tale is that the Ancient Greeks were right and I need to buy a toga?

22 hours ago, Anath said:

It'll be darkly ironic because Ashara wouldn't be dishonoured the way Barristan thought but she might feel it like a dishonour anyway. In fact, the more I think of it, the more I hesitate to claim it would only be her vanity. If Rhaegar had already bedded her at the time, what with frail wife getting pregnant almost immediately and likely not up for any bedsport for an additional half a year later, he had practically used Ashara and threw her away without warning - at least, that would be how she'd likely perceive it.

Yes. And might even fit with theories of Ashara's being Dany's mother? Hmmm. . . .or could the "dishonor" have been just the proposition? Rhaegar's asking if she's have one of his magical children? It still struggle a bit with it. . . .though it would ironically fit with Ned's thinking that Rhaegar probably didn't frequent brothels.

22 hours ago, Anath said:

Yes, Lyanna might be the "rival" here. But I think it's more complex than this. I think that if the Sansa echo holds true, Lyanna and Ashara alternate roles to both fit Lysa. I'd have no trouble with casting Ashara in Lysa's role but there are three facts that point me at this not being the case. First, Ned truly looks like he wants to protect Ashara as well as Jon to me. If she had tried to harm Lyanna, I guess he'd have much less scruples to cast her as Jon's supposed mother or at least, a viable possibility, especially with the Daynes not likely to contradict him.

YUP! This gives me pause on how far to go with the Lysa/Ashara parallel, too. I've been wondering if the echo isn't mostly the disappointed mother/lover. Not the violent mad woman.

Still, to play devil's advocate, Ned feels sympathy for Cersei, even after she tried to kill Bran and did cripple him. Ned's capacity for compassion is amazing.

23 hours ago, Anath said:

Second, Howland Reed. By all accounts, he seems to be the person who's currenly most knowledgeable about Lyanna's death - and he gives us some interesting hints, like Lyanna NOT crying at Rhaegar's song and pouring wine over Benjen's head and Ashara being so beautiful and romantic. There's no hint of evil about her in his words, just admiration.

Good point. Admiration and almost idolization. 

23 hours ago, Anath said:

Third, Ned directly claims Lyanna's wolf blood led her to an early grave. In the Arthur-Lyanna scenario there's no way it had anything to do with the KotLT. This was long gone and forgotten. But I take Ned's words to mean that Lyanna actually played a part in her own death. She was a victim, yes, but also a perpetrator.

YUP! On this, you and @Voice and @Lady Dyanna all agree. I'm waffling on what precisely her role might have been. But I agree she was involved.

23 hours ago, Anath said:

We're given an example of how she acts: she "attacks" without thinking, re: Benjen. My guess would be that with Ashara and Lyanna both being kept away from the eyes of the majority of the people in Starfall, they might have been forced into uncomfortable closeness. Even if the Rhaegar matter had already been settled and Lyanna was no rival on this front, they might have been simply too different to live close to each other. Sometimes, it's hard even for sisters. (Sansa and Arya, Ishtar and Ereshkigal.) Perhaps Ashara truly thought that Lyanna's return to her brothers could end the war and despised her for staying at Starfall, as irrational as it was? And Lyanna, who disliked the fact that Robert had fathered a child on someone in the Vale thought the presumably pregnant or recently given birth unwed Ashara a married prince's whore? (With Lyanna, it might have been different in her own eyes. Arthur had no other woman, just his oaths to a mad and dangerous king who had murdered Lyanna's own father and brother,) Perhaps the news of Rhaegar's death followed by Elia's end, her children's deaths and finally Arthur's, proven by the return of Dawn, finally made the tensions escalate? It might have been Lyanna who reacted to an insult by a shove, flinging a glass of water in Ashara's face  or something else (something that let out her inability to control her temper, aka wolf blood) that , in both women's agitated state, escalated in a fight causing Ashara's death and the birth of Lyanna's child in the immediate aftermath. (If that was indeed what killed her. There's the tiniest possibility that her bed of blood was caused by an actual wound. The direwolf in the beginning of the series died with her newborn cubs close by but it wasn't their birth that killed her.)

Okay--that is one of the most believable scenarios I've read on the idea--and it fits VERY well with the echoes of Lyanna we get in Sansa and Arya. And fits very well the scene where Sansa and Arya both want to stay in King's Landing, but are mocking each other's reasons. 

And the premature birth re: stress. Obviously, it's possible. But we also have it shown to us with Dany.

23 hours ago, Anath said:

If Ned tried to prevent the fight and/or tried to save Ashara, that might be a reason for the Dayne's respect.

:agree: Very plausible. Well done!

23 hours ago, Anath said:

BTW, I am not sure that Ned Dayne was named after Ned Stark, no matter how deep the gratitude was. Gratitude is different from warm feelings. I suspect that Edric Dayne might be a reference to Eldric Shadowchaser. What chases shadows away better than light? And the Daynes conveniently have a blade aligt with light.

I agree that Ned Dayne need not be named after Ned Stark. And I agree with the Eldric reference.

The one thing--they call Edric "Ned." Voluntarily. Lots of other nickname options, but they go with the one that echoes Ned. Plus, Martin's not subtle: he has Arya start when she hears Beric call Edric "Ned" the first time. It might just be a reference for the reader. Absolutely. But seems like there's a chance they are just fine with a nickname that's a constant reminder of the guy who killed Arthur.

23 hours ago, Anath said:

Perhaps that was another reason for Lyanna's fear? Perhaps she feared that not only Robert and those who'd use Jon as Rhaegar's would be a threat but the boy's very own family if they were angry with her over the part she might have played in Ashara's death, no matter that she never meant for the other woman to die? (Like Sansa never meant for her father to die.) That might have been the best compromise for the Daynes as well: Arthur's son would be cared for  and they woudn't have to deal with raising the child of the girl who was involved in Ashara's death.

NICE!!! If she's feverish, that fear would be heightened. And, like Sansa, once she's made the mistake, she doesn't trust the locals. Well done!!

Fortunately for Ned and Jon, the Daynes are made of much better stuff than the Lannisters. 

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12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Very true. Would only suggest that Ashara's tale seems to have reached 'legend" status in the novels--comes up a lot for a dead lady in Dorne.

Oh yes. Her beauty, her tragedy... Can't get rid of that hunch that her tradegy would be a terrible one indeed but in another way, not the one legend paints.

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

HA! So, perhaps Zeus is king of the gods after all if he pulled this off. So--the moral of the tale is that the Ancient Greeks were right and I need to buy a toga?

A toga and a chiton. Zeus didn't manage to get rid of that annoying Jupiter, so it might be wise to be in good standing with both of them.

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes. And might even fit with theories of Ashara's being Dany's mother?

It might. As I've said before, I believe Ashara was someone's mother and it was so bad that the Daynes preferred to play neglectful about her reputation and by extension, theirs, than take the risk of someone actually digging deeper. If they said there was no love story, those who suspected that Ashara had been pregnant might get suspicious. Better control the rumour and attach a name to it. Preferably the name of someone who's deep to the neck in the aftermath of the entire thing and has things to hide. Just like them.

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! On this, you and @Voice and @Lady Dyanna all agree. I'm waffling on what precisely her role might have been. But I agree she was involved.

I am inclined to think that the wolf blood Ned was talking about wasn't just breaking the rules. When he talks about wolf blood being the death of Brandon, he was talking about him being rash in a very specific manner - trying to attack without thinking because that's what wolves do. And he's saying this to his young daughter who's just surprised him by arming herself just in case she might need to attack. Makes me think that Lyanna launched an attack in some sense - provoking Ashara? Getting pissed at her rescuers and deciding to rescue herself from them which might not be the best idea for a heavily pregnant lady on an island nestled in mountains, at which point Ashara tried to stop her, not realizing that telling an angry wolf what to do was not a good idea but a very bad and very deadly one? In this case, it would have happened even before they knew of Arthur's death but from the little we know about her, Lyanna Stark didn't need a great additional incentive to get pissed with benign influences that tried to boss her around for her own good. Ned might have arrived in the aftermath of Ashara's fall - and with Howland being the only one of his men who came with him through the Prince's Pass and live to NOT tell the tale, it wouldn't be hard to concoct the story of Ashara's romantic death.

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--that is one of the most believable scenarios I've read on the idea--and it fits VERY well with the echoes of Lyanna we get in Sansa and Arya.

:cheers: Thank you, kind lady. It actually also fits with Sansa's echo in another way, I think. Sansa lost a good deal of family members to her husband's family and she longs to be able to pay them back. Lyanna lost her father and brother to the loyalty Arthur had chosen once - Aerys. And she does manage to get her revenge on a member of Arthur's family, although I doubt she ever had that in mind. Perhaps as Arthur and possibly Rhaegar were busy saving her, she happened upon a weirwood and asked the old gods to avenge her?:unsure: It was a joke, of course, but the echo was not.

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Plus, Martin's not subtle: he has Arya start when she hears Beric call Edric "Ned" the first time. It might just be a reference for the reader. Absolutely. But seems like there's a chance they are just fine with a nickname that's a constant reminder of the guy who killed Arthur.

Definitely.

12 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

NICE!!! If she's feverish, that fear would be heightened. And, like Sansa, once she's made the mistake, she doesn't trust the locals. Well done!!

:blush: Heightened indeed - and explainable. In this scenario, she might have been afraid for her son's life right now, not when a week or month later Robert and the rest of the world would get to know. In her mind, that might have been the difference between life and death now, like it was for Sansa and Lady. The wrong wolf who might end up paying for her mistake. Fortunately, he didn't. Perhaps the current crop of Daynes - including the ones around at the time of Robert's Rebellion - aren't this big on vengeance if Ned is something to go by. He stayed with his undead lord and left the undead lady. Beric was all for justice and protection, as much as his altered state would allow. UnCat was all for vengeance. Could that be a factor in young Ned's decision to leave? If it was and if the theory I suggest here has something to do with the truth of the matter, perhaps Ned's grandparents and father weren't after vengeance for a crime no one committed but were relieved to have the child away and cared for anyway.

It'll make a nice inversion with the Stark man and the Dayne woman, BTW. The Night King and Queen certainly included breaking a vow - the one to protect Westeros and not make sacrifice to the Others. The result of their union was a monstrous one. A Stark maiden and a Dayne man union (in which the man has abandoned all claims over any station coming from his family and the maiden is one of the most high-ranking ladies in Westeros, second only to the Queen and Princess Elia) which also included breaking a vow - multiple vows, in fact, might have just lead to the birth of a hero.

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On February 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Anath said:

Can't get rid of that hunch that her tradegy would be a terrible one indeed but in another way, not the one legend paints.

I'm with you on this--she echoes the Bael Maid somewhat. But the Bael Tale doesn't say whether or not the Maid jumped from the tower because Bael died. Or because her son killed his father and committed a kin-slaying. And the echoes of Ashara in Lysa's scene (this is @Lady Dyanna's brainchild, here--a few pages in).

Now, is Lysa telling us that Ashara wanted the man who's committed to Cat (Ned, now married) like Baelish is still gone on Cat? Or Ashara she angry with the man who killed her love (like Lysa hates Brandon for hurting Baelish)--and a fight ensued? This is something I can't yet suss out.:read:

On February 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Anath said:

It might. As I've said before, I believe Ashara was someone's mother and it was so bad that the Daynes preferred to play neglectful about her reputation and by extension, theirs, than take the risk of someone actually digging deeper. If they said there was no love story, those who suspected that Ashara had been pregnant might get suspicious. Better control the rumour and attach a name to it. Preferably the name of someone who's deep to the neck in the aftermath of the entire thing and has things to hide. Just like them.

In which case, Ashara would again echo Lysa--and the cover-up and forced miscarriage of her child by Baelish (that whole thing is just horrifying). 

If the father is Rhaegar--that would make plenty of sense. And would fit the echoes of the Bael Tale--potential despair over both her child's fate and the fate of her child's father.

Then just make sure Allyria, Edric, and others tell the "safe" yet tragic story of the lovely Ashara--and voila! Covered with a slight lie that's close to the truth.

On February 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Anath said:

I am inclined to think that the wolf blood Ned was talking about wasn't just breaking the rules. When he talks about wolf blood being the death of Brandon, he was talking about him being rash in a very specific manner - trying to attack without thinking because that's what wolves do. And he's saying this to his young daughter who's just surprised him by arming herself just in case she might need to attack. Makes me think that Lyanna launched an attack in some sense - provoking Ashara? Getting pissed at her rescuers and deciding to rescue herself from them which might not be the best idea for a heavily pregnant lady on an island nestled in mountains, at which point Ashara tried to stop her, not realizing that telling an angry wolf what to do was not a good idea but a very bad and very deadly one?

This would fit what we've seen of Arya's personality and it's tie to Lyanna. And your ideas, as I said above, fit really well with @Voice's.

But the arming of Arya is an interesting point that I'm slightly torn on. Without doubt, Ned's being the good dad who helps his kids develop into who they are, vs. who he "wants" them to be.

But the idea that he wants Arya to learn how to control and enjoy and work with her "wolf-blood" vs. just lashing out. . . because Lyanna lashed out and got herself into trouble. Yes. . . that would fit.

And a fight between Lyanna and Ashara that ended in death--could see the Starks and Daynes bonding a bit over that. . . if they both saw the mutual fault/mistake.

On February 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Anath said:

In this case, it would have happened even before they knew of Arthur's death but from the little we know about her, Lyanna Stark didn't need a great additional incentive to get pissed with benign influences that tried to boss her around for her own good. Ned might have arrived in the aftermath of Ashara's fall - and with Howland being the only one of his men who came with him through the Prince's Pass and live to NOT tell the tale, it wouldn't be hard to concoct the story of Ashara's romantic death.

Well done, again! This would work well.

On February 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Anath said:

:cheers: Thank you, kind lady. It actually also fits with Sansa's echo in another way, I think. Sansa lost a good deal of family members to her husband's family and she longs to be able to pay them back. Lyanna lost her father and brother to the loyalty Arthur had chosen once - Aerys. And she does manage to get her revenge on a member of Arthur's family, although I doubt she ever had that in mind. Perhaps as Arthur and possibly Rhaegar were busy saving her, she happened upon a weirwood and asked the old gods to avenge her?:unsure: It was a joke, of course, but the echo was not.

Perhaps a joke--but Sansa's praying in the godswood on a regular basis. And the woman Bran sees emerging from the Winterfell pool--the idea that Lyanna would want vengeance on the people who killed her father and brother--just as Sansa and Arya do--that would work very well.

Which brings up the potential moment when Sansa figures out just how much Baelish has hurt her family. I do not think Arthur was as sinister as Baelish. If so, he was astoundingly sneaky. But he presents as a friend but has betrayed her entirely. Would Lyanna think Arthus as less of a betrayer for defending Aerys? Or helping Rhaegar raise and army to fight her own family? That could end up a BIG clash.

On February 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Anath said:

Heightened indeed - and explainable. In this scenario, she might have been afraid for her son's life right now, not when a week or month later Robert and the rest of the world would get to know. In her mind, that might have been the difference between life and death now, like it was for Sansa and Lady. The wrong wolf who might end up paying for her mistake.

AHHH! I'm loving this. I've been working on this echo with @Lady Dyanna and @shizett  here. Will have to link the argument to this. And, as you've said above, would explain why she didn't want to leave the child in Starfall.

On February 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Anath said:

Perhaps the current crop of Daynes - including the ones around at the time of Robert's Rebellion - aren't this big on vengeance if Ned is something to go by. He stayed with his undead lord and left the undead lady. Beric was all for justice and protection, as much as his altered state would allow. UnCat was all for vengeance. Could that be a factor in young Ned's decision to leave? If it was and if the theory I suggest here has something to do with the truth of the matter, perhaps Ned's grandparents and father weren't after vengeance for a crime no one committed but were relieved to have the child away and cared for anyway.

So, if the parents of Ned Dayne learned the same lessons from this war that Ned Stark did? Yes. . . Ned (Stark) seems rather astounded that Robert has lost track of the purpose of the fight. Of the need to save children--which is an odd line he brings up to Robert in the fight over Dany's assassination. And which I don't think he brings up elsewhere. If the Daynes and the Starks reach this understanding.  . . would even fit with the odd way Arya reacts to Ned Dayne. Trying to be extra polite. Pushing back at Gendry for teasing him. A sign to the reader that the Daynes really are a different sort--like the Starks.

On February 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, Anath said:

It'll make a nice inversion with the Stark man and the Dayne woman, BTW. The Night King and Queen certainly included breaking a vow - the one to protect Westeros and not make sacrifice to the Others. The result of their union was a monstrous one. A Stark maiden and a Dayne man union (in which the man has abandoned all claims over any station coming from his family and the maiden is one of the most high-ranking ladies in Westeros, second only to the Queen and Princess Elia) which also included breaking a vow - multiple vows, in fact, might have just lead to the birth of a hero.

Okay--I hope you don't mind if I link this over in the inversion project here because this is great. Or you could just come argue it yourself.

And this fits beautifully with @Voice of the First Men's "How Ice Became Dawn"--so, I'm going to link it over there, if you don't mind.

It would all go back to the basic Martinlandia rule of "everything old is new again." Nothing's much older than the Long Night, the Starks, and the Daynes in Westeros. If the above is how the "falling star" of the Daynes or Starks originally fell, then would make sense it needs to be rectified.

And would fit with Jon's seeing the Sword of the Morning--the stars still shining, not fallen. It looks like a tragedy at the beginning, but results in a solution. Whereas the Night's King probably looked like triumph and power at the beginning, but resulted in catastrophe/nightmares. The Night's Fort has more horrible tales about it than anywhere else.

Am out of time. . . need to think on this some more.

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4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm with you on this--she echoes the Bael Maid somewhat. But the Bael Tale doesn't say whether or not the Maid jumped from the tower because Bael died. Or because her son killed his father and committed a kin-slaying. And the echoes of Ashara in Lysa's scene (this is @Lady Dyanna's brainchild, here--a few pages in).

Sorry, I wasn't clear - I meant the legend created around her. Her beautiful romantic death jumping romantically into the bright blue sea washing the shores of her castle of stars.

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Now, is Lysa telling us that Ashara wanted the man who's committed to Cat (Ned, now married) like Baelish is still gone on Cat? Or Ashara she angry with the man who killed her love (like Lysa hates Brandon for hurting Baelish)--and a fight ensued? This is something I can't yet suss out.:read:

If we have a Lysa connection in Ashara and a man, it would be either Cat or Elia, depending on the man in question. If we're talking echoes, I don't think Cat would be Cat. Elia, though... In Arianne's good relations with the highborn Dornish people from her own generation, could we see an echo of Elia's own youth? Is it possible that the Water Gardens turned Elia and Ashara into sisters, kind of, with Arthur being "brother" to both? Later, he entered the part of "her" champion by punishing the Brotherhood that had taken her jewels and perhaps a kiss. And if Rhaegar and Ashara did have a thing later, it'll be Rhaegar in Baelish' role but to Ashara this time. Who knows, perhaps she made a go at him, suggesting that she could be the mother of the third head? It's hard to tell. But Ashara is younger than Elia, just like Lysa is younger than Cat. She's also considered more beautiful than Elia, just like Lysa was considered more beautiful than Cat. Barristan thinks Elia was interesting, just like Jaime thinks Cat was (compared to Lysa). Could Elia have taken the "Petyr" in this case, leaving Ashara with nothing but other means to get him in any way she could?

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

In which case, Ashara would again echo Lysa--and the cover-up and forced miscarriage of her child by Baelish (that whole thing is just horrifying). 

If the father is Rhaegar--that would make plenty of sense. And would fit the echoes of the Bael Tale--potential despair over both her child's fate and the fate of her child's father.

Then just make sure Allyria, Edric, and others tell the "safe" yet tragic story of the lovely Ashara--and voila! Covered with a slight lie that's close to the truth.

Yes, to all of this. And perhaps she was forced not to miscarry her baby but simply have it brought up like her own sibling? Perhaps she was delusional that she could pull it off somehow?

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But the arming of Arya is an interesting point that I'm slightly torn on. Without doubt, Ned's being the good dad who helps his kids develop into who they are, vs. who he "wants" them to be.

He saw his father trying to force Lyanna into who he wanted her to be. Looks like it didn't work out all this great. Better do some damage control. It's interesting that he finds Arya a teacher who is all about making her think and obey first - making her want to think and obey, even if that meant getting a constellation of scratches, courtesy of the palace cats.

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Which brings up the potential moment when Sansa figures out just how much Baelish has hurt her family. I do not think Arthur was as sinister as Baelish. If so, he was astoundingly sneaky. But he presents as a friend but has betrayed her entirely. Would Lyanna think Arthus as less of a betrayer for defending Aerys? Or helping Rhaegar raise and army to fight her own family? That could end up a BIG clash.

As weird as it sounds, in this scenario Rhaegar would be Lyanna's Tyrion. Everyone thought they were together (with the important exception of JonCon who doesn't think about Lyanna at all and perhaps the equally important exception of Howland Reed who implies that Lyanna wasn't as much into Rhaegar as people suggested), just like everyone thinks Sansa and Tyrion are truly "together", husband and wife. Robb and Cat even take measures to prevent the possible dire consequences of this union, just like Brandon tried to do with Lyanna. Tyrion protects her, just like we theorize Rhaegar did Lyanna.

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

It would all go back to the basic Martinlandia rule of "everything old is new again." Nothing's much older than the Long Night, the Starks, and the Daynes in Westeros. If the above is how the "falling star" of the Daynes or Starks originally fell, then would make sense it needs to be rectified.

Indeed.

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On 2/17/2016 at 8:45 PM, Anath said:

might. As I've said before, I believe Ashara was someone's mother and it was so bad that the Daynes preferred to play neglectful about her reputation and by extension, theirs, than take the risk of someone actually digging deeper. If they said there was no love story, those who suspected that Ashara had been pregnant might get suspicious. Better control the rumour and attach a name to it. Preferably the name of someone who's deep to the neck in the aftermath of the entire thing and has things to hide. Just like them.

:agree:

On 2/17/2016 at 8:45 PM, Anath said:

Ned might have arrived in the aftermath of Ashara's fall

If we use the moon door scene as a clue, I'm more tempted to believe that Ned arrived in the middle of the altercation, just as Littlefinger did.  I've actually gone as far as stipulating that he was the unintentional cause of Ashara falling, trying to intervene between her and Lyanna, with Lyanna possibly receiving a fatal injury.  Although I do think that Lyanna had a child, I'm far from certain that this was the ultimate cause of her death.

On 2/20/2016 at 6:57 PM, Anath said:

If we're talking echoes, I don't think Cat would be Cat. Elia, though... In Arianne's good relations with the highborn Dornish people from her own generation, could we see an echo of Elia's own youth? Is it possible that the Water Gardens turned Elia and Ashara into sisters, kind of, with Arthur being "brother" to both?

This is wonderful! I've been trying to figure this out for a while.  The problem being that neither Ashara not Lyanna had a sister of the correct age that we know about.  I'd thrown both Elia and Cersei around in my mind but couldn't come up with the link for it.  You just did it for me.  Awesome job!

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