Arthur+Lyanna=Jon

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

This seems a hard one to work. If this is the case, why do they agree with Ned's characterization that Darry fled?

Its really simple. After the news of the Trident came, Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. That's fleeing, plain and simple. After a disaster, part of the court flees to a safer location.
Its not specifically Darry that flees, he's just part of it. Its a general thing, not a specific thing. Some of the court fled by Aerys' order.
The "Kingsguard do not flee" is true in part, but mainly bravado. If they had of been in KL at the time and Aerys ordered one of them to accompany Rhaella and Viserys, they would have gone. Leaving KL was both fleeing and not fleeing, in different contexts of the word.

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

And, no matter how angry they are, would they really blame a kid for this decision? Granted, we know next to nothing about their thought process, but still--that seems harsh.

There is no indication they blame anyone, let alone Viserys for this.
Its not a blame thing, is just a general description.
Vastly over-analysed by readers I think.

 

[Sly Wren]

On March 3, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Might be better than some recent Hearthian dinners might have turned out. 

Well, no one ended up flayed. 

On March 3, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

 I'm not sure if it was mine or not. Is that bad?

Not since you say so.

On March 3, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I've recently seen speculated that eye color reflects genetic ability. Blue eyes with some traits, red with others and purple signifies both. 

Okay--this is interesting. But the only noted blue-eyed people are Tullys, yes? And the only natural red-eyed I can think of is Ghost.

Whereas the unnatural red eyed is Mel. And unnatural blue-eyed Others. So--for "genetic ability," are you suggesting that eyes indicate the ability before or after magical transformation?

As for the purple: would fit with @Lady Barbrey's and @LmL's ideas re: the Daynes as Amethyst Empress descendants.

On March 3, 2016 at 11:04 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

I've been able to pull quite a few great ideas from them! Bones, genetics, warging, magical, etc.  

Excellent!

[Sly Wren]

On March 3, 2016 at 11:37 PM, corbon said:

Its really simple. After the news of the Trident came, Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone. That's fleeing, plain and simple. After a disaster, part of the court flees to a safer location.
Its not specifically Darry that flees, he's just part of it. Its a general thing, not a specific thing. Some of the court fled by Aerys' order.

I agree--it would not be fleeing to go, as ordered, with the queen and the Prince. And if the KG dropped it, it wouldn't seem odd, But they don't drop it. They comment on the term.

 

Quote

"

Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him." 

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee." 

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

These three are making a point about Ned's term of "fleeing." Insisting that it applies to Darry NOT them. They make it an issue.

On March 3, 2016 at 11:37 PM, corbon said:

The "Kingsguard do not flee" is true in part, but mainly bravado. If they had of been in KL at the time and Aerys ordered one of them to accompany Rhaella and Viserys, they would have gone. Leaving KL was both fleeing and not fleeing, in different contexts of the word.

Again--I agree. So, why are they objecting to the term? Why insist that it applies to Darry and not them? That there is a distinction between what they and Darry are doing, if both are guarding members of the royal family?

Something else is up.

On March 3, 2016 at 11:37 PM, corbon said:

There is no indication they blame anyone, let alone Viserys for this.
Its not a blame thing, is just a general description.

Agreed. Oswell even qualifies the "flee" thing by stating that Darry was loyal and true. It's Hightower who breaks that back down--and insists that what they are doing is different than Darry.

On March 3, 2016 at 11:37 PM, corbon said:

Vastly over-analysed by readers I think.

HA! Very likely! But is anything in these unfinished books not over-analyzed at this point?

ETA: I have no idea what I did to make the formatting do this to my post. My apologies for the mess. 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--this is interesting. But the only noted blue-eyed people are Tullys, yes? And the only natural red-eyed I can think of is Ghost.

Definitely the Tullys have blue eyes. I'm wondering if Lyanna might have as well. Plus, IRL, how often do you hear about grey eyes? Aren't they more often considered a form of blue? I'm thinking that the Baratheon brothers have blue eyes as well. As for the red eyes, Bloodraven has them as well and some children of the forest. 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, no one ended up flayed. 

Not since you say so.

Okay--this is interesting. But the only noted blue-eyed people are Tullys, yes? And the only natural red-eyed I can think of is Ghost.

Whereas the unnatural red eyed is Mel. And unnatural blue-eyed Others. So--for "genetic ability," are you suggesting that eyes indicate the ability before or after magical transformation?

As for the purple: would fit with @Lady Barbrey's and @LmL's ideas re: the Daynes as Amethyst Empress descendants.

Excellent!

Baratheons and Andals in general are known for blue eyes, fwiw. 

[Sly Wren]

23 hours ago, LmL said:

Baratheons and Andals in general are known for blue eyes, fwiw. 

Huh. So I'm an idiot.  Good to know.

Though it does lend credence to my hunch that the blue eyes of the Others are something different from the Tullys. Even with Sansa's echoes of the Night's Queen.

On March 6, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Definitely the Tullys have blue eyes. I'm wondering if Lyanna might have as well.

Well, that would fit with @WeaselPie's Lyanna as Other idea. And she's definitely tied to them with her rose petals in Ned's dream.

On March 6, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Plus, IRL, how often do you hear about grey eyes? Aren't they more often considered a form of blue?

In real life, yes. I think they are all on the same basic DNA strand. But the novels make a fuss over the Stark grey eyes. And the Stark colors--they are odd for battle colors, no? Grey and white? Seems like they'd be hard to see--as compared to red, etc. 

Really seems like that grey is tied to the grey of dawn. As it is with Sansa, and Jon, and Arya, and your entire moments at dawn thread. 

We have sunset turning the Wall from red into black--as @LmL pointed out to me. Dawn--grey and pink and full of color. Seems like the Starks are grey and in transition. Thus, the grey eyes matter.

On March 6, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

As for the red eyes, Bloodraven has them as well and some children of the forest. 

And once again, I'm an idiot. Always good to know.

[corbon]

On 05/03/2016 at 5:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

I agree--it would not be fleeing to go, as ordered, with the queen and the Prince. And if the KG dropped it, it wouldn't seem odd, But they don't drop it. They comment on the term.

IMO their comment isn't relevant to Darry and his situation though, its relevant to them and their situation right now. They are telling Ned that here they stand, they are not letting him pass. Note how Arthur dons his helm - he is winding up the conversation on this point.
Or in other words, I don't think they are insisting it applies to Darry so much as making it very clear that HERE is their place and they do not flee. Not now, not then, not ever. Its all about them at this point, Darry just the way the conversation got there.

On 05/03/2016 at 5:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

 

ETA: I have no idea what I did to make the formatting do this to my post. My apologies for the mess. 

Its usually a problem with too many /quote sections, or one missing/in the wrong place. I see that a lot, but it does take a large amount of work to fix it sometimes.

 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Huh. So I'm an idiot.  Good to know.

Though it does lend credence to my hunch that the blue eyes of the Others are something different from the Tullys. Even with Sansa's echoes of the Night's Queen.

Well, that would fit with @WeaselPie's Lyanna as Other idea. And she's definitely tied to them with her rose petals in Ned's dream.

In real life, yes. I think they are all on the same basic DNA strand. But the novels make a fuss over the Stark grey eyes. And the Stark colors--they are odd for battle colors, no? Grey and white? Seems like they'd be hard to see--as compared to red, etc. 

Really seems like that grey is tied to the grey of dawn. As it is with Sansa, and Jon, and Arya, and your entire moments at dawn thread. 

We have sunset turning the Wall from red into black--as @LmL pointed out to me. Dawn--grey and pink and full of color. Seems like the Starks are grey and in transition. Thus, the grey eyes matter.

And once again, I'm an idiot. Always good to know.

I agree the Starks's "grey" eyes should be viewed as some kind of in between or transitional symbol. 

Whats this about Lyanna and the Others now? I certainly think Lyanna symbolizes the Night's Queen, but I'm not sure it would go any farther than that. Is this an idea about Lyanna's bones rising along with the other Stark spirits in the crypts or something? That would be freaky, I have to say. 

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, that would fit with @WeaselPie's Lyanna as Other idea. And she's definitely tied to them with her rose petals in Ned's dream.

Any idea if he has that written up here? I read his theory related to Jon's parentage, but never Lyanna specifically.

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Seems like the Starks are grey and in transition. Thus, the grey eyes matter.

True. I was probably reaching too far with that one. 

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

once again, I'm an idiot. Always good to know.

Far from it. Either that or maybe I need to share the dunce cap. 

 

52 minutes ago, LmL said:

Whats this about Lyanna and the Others now? I certainly think Lyanna symbolizes the Night's Queen, but I'm not sure it would go any farther than that. Is this an idea about Lyanna's bones rising along with the other Stark spirits in the crypts or something? That would be freaky, I have to say. 

Now I'm going to go really far out with this, so please feel free to laugh. What if Evolett's correct in her assessment of the Blue Winter Rose indicating a specific genetic trait,  and this trait would allow Lyanna to be able to be either a sentient ww or wight, in essence rising from the crypts. Would she then become a contemporary Nights Queen? Maybe that's what is being symbolized in the Blue rose vision? Or not?

[LmL]

I'm not sure, I can't really buy into the various genetic ideas out there. 

[Sly Wren]

On March 6, 2016 at 7:22 PM, corbon said:

MO their comment isn't relevant to Darry and his situation though, its relevant to them and their situation right now. They are telling Ned that here they stand, they are not letting him pass. Note how Arthur dons his helm - he is winding up the conversation on this point.

Very possible. Though, would they need Lyanna or anyone else in the tower to say "You shall not pass!!!!"?

The World Book references a few times that the Stoney Dornish ride OUT of their castles and repel "invaders" in the Pass. Riding out to fight Ned--if they'd heard Ned had only a small band. Maybe. And would potentially leave a plan B: if they failed (which they very nearly didn't), if whomever they were guarding (could be Jon, could be Rhaegar's child by someone else altogether) was elsewhere, said person would now have time to escape if all else was lost.

And, if the child in question is NOT related to Ned, that would help explain why they don't even bother trying to negotiate. Why Arthur dons his helm and ends the conversation.

On March 6, 2016 at 7:22 PM, corbon said:

Or in other words, I don't think they are insisting it applies to Darry so much as making it very clear that HERE is their place and they do not flee. Not now, not then, not ever. Its all about them at this point, Darry just the way the conversation got there.

Very possible. It's just odd for them to assert that Darry "fled" with the royals. One way or another. But with so little info, no way to be sure what's up yet.

[Sly Wren]

On March 6, 2016 at 7:54 PM, LmL said:

I agree the Starks's "grey" eyes should be viewed as some kind of in between or transitional symbol. 

 And I'm thinking that the fact that Jon's are the darkest of them all (or darker than any others currently mentioned) is also potentially telling. If the transition is night into day, his grey eyes being darkest, because he's the one to lead out of the darkness???? Maybe. But the note about his eyes being so dark--seems like that's there for a reason.

On March 6, 2016 at 7:54 PM, LmL said:

Whats this about Lyanna and the Others now? I certainly think Lyanna symbolizes the Night's Queen, but I'm not sure it would go any farther than that. Is this an idea about Lyanna's bones rising along with the other Stark spirits in the crypts or something? That would be freaky, I have to say. 

Well, @Lady Dyanna's given her take above. @Voice has his tenuous (sorry, voice) theory re: Lyanna's being in the weirwood chair.

I think @WeaselPie's idea was about Lyanna's being "Othered" when she gave brith. I'm not sure I buy that.

But I do think the marker of "blue as the eyes of death" is a marker per se. That the moment of that fight, the moment these men fight elicits a blood-streaked sky and "blue as the eyes of death"--something about that moment is tied to the Others. Or the return of the Others.

Have you seen @Voice's new idea on this? He and I were discussing it a bit here. He said you were thinking along some of the same lines. . . 

[Voice]

On 3/18/2016 at 8:14 PM, Sly Wren said:

Well, @Lady Dyanna's given her take above. @Voice has his tenuous (sorry, voice) theory re: Lyanna's being in the weirwood chair.

Lol, no need. I always prefaced that as a romantic crackpot. I just think it would be cool for Jon to learn of his parentage from his own mother. Rather than be seated beneath Winterfell's godswood, her consciousness could merely be preserved by it. Someone must be beckoning Jon deeper into the (Last Hero's cotf hollow) crypts, right?

On 3/18/2016 at 8:14 PM, Sly Wren said:

I think @WeaselPie's idea was about Lyanna's being "Othered" when she gave brith. I'm not sure I buy that.

But I do think the marker of "blue as the eyes of death" is a marker per se. That the moment of that fight, the moment these men fight elicits a blood-streaked sky and "blue as the eyes of death"--something about that moment is tied to the Others. Or the return of the Others.

Have you seen @Voice's new idea on this? He and I were discussing it a bit here. He said you were thinking along some of the same lines. . . 

The cat is out of the bag on this one, unfortunately. @alienarea guessed where I was going with my argument. A Stark killing the Sword of the Morning is what has allowed the Others, particularly Night's King, to return.

That's our blue eyes of death, and blood-streaked sky.

How do you streak the sky withe blood and awaken the blue eyes of death in one fell swoop? You kill Dawn.

[Sly Wren]

On March 31, 2016 at 1:47 AM, Voice said:

Lol, no need. I always prefaced that as a romantic crackpot. I just think it would be cool for Jon to learn of his parentage from his own mother. Rather than be seated beneath Winterfell's godswood, her consciousness could merely be preserved by it. Someone must be beckoning Jon deeper into the (Last Hero's cotf hollow) crypts, right?

Agreed--though I rather like the idea of Ned's telling him, too. Ned so wants to "just sit and talk with the boy" when he's in the black cells. And he "beckoned" Rickon and Bran into the crypts, too. . .

But finally seeing his mother might do Jon a world of un-dead good.

On March 31, 2016 at 1:47 AM, Voice said:

The cat is out of the bag on this one, unfortunately. @alienarea guessed where I was going with my argument. A Stark killing the Sword of the Morning is what has allowed the Others, particularly Night's King, to return.

That's our blue eyes of death, and blood-streaked sky.

How do you streak the sky withe blood and awaken the blue eyes of death in one fell swoop? You kill Dawn.

YUP! Though I would argue that the Sword of the Morning's fighting the direwolf was a problem, too.

Bran notes that Summer and Shaggy sing to the stars. The direwolves have an affinity for stars, and no one in Winterfell can tell him why they are singing. Only Osha tells him they remember old truths.

Jon notes that while Ghost doesn't sing, he goes to the heights while his "red eyes drink in the stars." 

Stark direwolves really like stars. Stars tell Jon about the Sword of the Morning and fill him with hope. And the current Lord of Starfall has been taught to like, respect, and seek out the Stark in Winterfell and his daughter. To even be deferential to the direwolf-lord's daughter. Stars like direwolves.

I'm thinking they both just should NOT have been fighting. At all. That it broke the singing. And freed the range of the blue eyes of death.

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Agreed--though I rather like the idea of Ned's telling him, too. Ned so wants to "just sit and talk with the boy" when he's in the black cells. And he "beckoned" Rickon and Bran into the crypts, too. . .

But finally seeing his mother might do Jon a world of un-dead good.

YUP! Though I would argue that the Sword of the Morning's fighting the direwolf was a problem, too.

Bran notes that Summer and Shaggy sing to the stars. The direwolves have an affinity for stars, and no one in Winterfell can tell him why they are singing. Only Osha tells him they remember old truths.

Jon notes that while Ghost doesn't sing, he goes to the heights while his "red eyes drink in the stars." 

Stark direwolves really like stars. Stars tell Jon about the Sword of the Morning and fill him with hope. And the current Lord of Starfall has been taught to like, respect, and seek out the Stark in Winterfell and his daughter. To even be deferential to the direwolf-lord's daughter. Stars like direwolves.

I'm thinking they both just should NOT have been fighting. At all. That it broke the singing. And freed the range of the blue eyes of death.

The direwolves have almost the exact same symbolism as dragons, actually. Both dragons and direwolves in ASOAIF are using Cerberus ideas as well - thats the fiery three headed hellhound of Greek myth. The direwolves and dragons both have eyes of fire, and in Theon's dream of hellhounds with the heads of children chasing him, they even drip black blood and smell of brimstone. Meanwhile, the Starks live on top of a geothermal hotspot, and their castle is the only one in Westeros with gargoyles besides Dragonstone. They wear black crowns (like Aegon's) made with bronze and iron - metals which are "dark and strong to fight the cold." To fight the cold. 

It's really sneaky, but the Starks are actually fiery people with fiery hellhounds. All of this makes me suspect there's a connection (common ancestor) between Starks and dragon people. A super old one going back to Azor Ahai, if it exists. That may be why the Last Hero is connected to both the Starks and Azor Ahai. 

[PrettyPig]

@LmL    

Quote

It's really sneaky, but the Starks are actually fiery people with fiery hellhounds. All of this makes me suspect there's a connection (common ancestor) between Starks and dragon people. A super old one going back to Azor Ahai, if it exists.

Duuude, you are really going to have to come back to my Marvel-ous stuff one of these days.  I will be laying out this very thing very soon.

[Sly Wren]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

The direwolves have almost the exact same symbolism as dragons, actually. Both dragons and direwolves in ASOAIF are using Cerberus ideas as well - thats the fiery three headed hellhound of Greek myth. The direwolves and dragons both have eyes of fire, and in Theon's dream of hellhounds with the heads of children chasing him, they even drip black blood and smell of brimstone. Meanwhile, the Starks live on top of a geothermal hotspot, and their castle is the only one in Westeros with gargoyles besides Dragonstone. They wear black crowns (like Aegon's) made with bronze and iron - metals which are "dark and strong to fight the cold." To fight the cold. 

Some very similar symbolism, yes. Though, far as we know, direwolves don't ever require blood sacrifice to  . . . spawn? Whelp? Wolf? 

3 hours ago, LmL said:

It's really sneaky, but the Starks are actually fiery people with fiery hellhounds. All of this makes me suspect there's a connection (common ancestor) between Starks and dragon people. A super old one going back to Azor Ahai, if it exists. That may be why the Last Hero is connected to both the Starks and Azor Ahai. 

Fire, yes. But a different fire that dragons. Jon makes that very clear when Ghost returns to him after his Walkabout with the Wildlings (sounds like a bad pitch for Discovery Channel. And potential grounds for a lawsuit).

 

Quote

 

It was a long moment before he understood what was happening. When he did, he bolted to his feet. "Ghost?" He turned toward the wood, and there he came, padding silently out of the green dusk, the breath coming warm and white from his open jaws. "Ghost!" he shouted, and the direwolf broke into a run. He was leaner than he had been, but bigger as well, and the only sound he made was the soft crunch of dead leaves beneath his paws. When he reached Jon he leapt, and they wrestled amidst brown grass and long shadows as the stars came out above them. "Gods, wolf, where have you been?" Jon said when Ghost stopped worrying at his forearm. "I thought you'd died on me, like Robb and Ygritte and all the rest. I've had no sense of you, not since I climbed the Wall, not even in dreams." The direwolf had no answer, but he licked Jon's face with a tongue like a wet rasp, and his eyes caught the last light and shone like two great red suns. 

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow. Storm, Jon XII

 

 

Ghost only returns as Jon thinks of going home to Winterfell and raising a family.

Only returns as the stars come out. The same stars Jon finds Ghost gazing at, with his red eyes "drinking in the stars." Just as Summer and Shaggy sing to the stars.

And Jon specifically and clearly notes that Ghost's fire is not like Mel's fire. With her talk of blood and dragons. 

Starks and their direwolves are tied to fire--but not dragon fire (Mel). More like starfire. Bran's dreaming of knights with swords like starfire. And the star singing. And Ghos'st leading Jon to the dragon glass cache by starlight (the night is moonless)--until the trees block out the stars and he must follow Ghost's red eyes instead. 

But the dragons are innately opposed to stars:

Quote

She saw sunlight on the Dothraki sea, the living plain, rich with the smells of earth and death. Wind stirred the grasses, and they rippled like water. Drogo held her in strong arms, and his hand stroked her sex and opened her and woke that sweet wetness that was his alone, and the stars smiled down on them, stars in a daylight sky. "Home," she whispered as he entered her and filled her with his seed, but suddenly the stars were gone, and across the blue sky swept the great wings, and the world took flame. Game, Dany IX

Quote

If I were a dragon, I could fly to Westeros, she thought when he was gone. I would have no need of Xaro or his ships. Dany wondered how many men thirteen galleys could hold. It had taken three to carry her and her khalasar from Qarth to Astapor, but that was before she had acquired eight thousand Unsullied, a thousand sellswords, and a vast horde of freedmen. And the dragons, what am I to do with them? "Drogon," she whispered softly, "where are you?" For a moment she could almost see him sweeping across the sky, his black wings swallowing the stars. Dance, Dany III.

Jon and the Starks and the Direwolves are drawn to the stars. Jon especially feels hope when he sees stars in a daylight sky.

As does Dany--until the dragons come. And all the life gets burned out of the world, leaving only ashes. But first--the stars leave first as the dragon approaches.

So--yes, direwolves have hellhound imagery. And Starks have warmth and fire. But it's not the same as dragons and Targs. 

[Sly Wren]

On March 6, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Any idea if he has that written up here? I read his theory related to Jon's parentage, but never Lyanna specifically.

I somehow missed this out. Sorry.

I think @WeaselPie brought up the theory in his Lyanna at TOJ isn't cannon thread.

But where in the thread--I'm not sure.

On March 6, 2016 at 8:55 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Now I'm going to go really far out with this, so please feel free to laugh. What if Evolett's correct in her assessment of the Blue Winter Rose indicating a specific genetic trait,  and this trait would allow Lyanna to be able to be either a sentient ww or wight, in essence rising from the crypts. Would she then become a contemporary Nights Queen? Maybe that's what is being symbolized in the Blue rose vision? Or not?

I do think the Starks have a specific . . . genetics. Blood and magic. And the idea of sentient wights--we've got both Coldhands and Beric to prove that's possible. And maybe Mel.

But it's the fight that engenders the rose petals blue as the eyes of death. And the blood. I really think the fight is important per se.

Or are you talking about the dream in the crypts where she's crying blood? 

As for rising from the crypts, I really think all of the Starks in there might be able to do just that. When called by the right person.

[LmL]

4 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

@LmL    

Duuude, you are really going to have to come back to my Marvel-ous stuff one of these days.  I will be laying out this very thing very soon.

Sweet, it's always great to hear different lines of inquiry coming up with the same thing. Your thread is awesome, it is just so big and all encompassing that I did not have room enough in my brain to upload it - I have so much stuck in there I need to get out as it is. But yeah, shoot me ante when you put our your thing about fire people by all means.

[LmL]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Some very similar symbolism, yes. Though, far as we know, direwolves don't ever require blood sacrifice to  . . . spawn? Whelp? Wolf? 

No, not that we have hear. I suspect dragons don't need bolo magic to hatch either - at least, not originally. All accounts of Targaryens before dragons died say they just kind of hatched.

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Fire, yes. But a different fire that dragons. Jon makes that very clear when Ghost returns to him after his Walkabout with the Wildlings (sounds like a bad pitch for Discovery Channel. And potential grounds for a lawsuit).

You love that quote, but you always forget this one:

Quote

 

“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song. The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers. Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”

“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. “Ghost,” he called. “To me.” The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger.

Jon frowned in disbelief. “That’s … queer.”

“You think so?” She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.”

(ADWD, Jon)

 

I think Martin simply wants to draw a contrast in one scene, and so he says their eyes are different, while here he wants to draw a similarity, and so they are similar. I don't think you can draw any sweeping conclusions based on these quotes.

Regardless, I agree that there must be differences in dragon / fire magic and whatever the Starks have going on, no doubt. I'm totally open minded on the nature of the connection here. I would say they are more obviously different, so the fact that they have similar symbolism is the kinda "hey look at this, this is weird" thing. 

 

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Ghost only returns as Jon thinks of going home to Winterfell and raising a family.

Only returns as the stars come out. The same stars Jon finds Ghost gazing at, with his red eyes "drinking in the stars." Just as Summer and Shaggy sing to the stars.

And Jon specifically and clearly notes that Ghost's fire is not like Mel's fire. With her talk of blood and dragons. 

Starks and their direwolves are tied to fire--but not dragon fire (Mel). More like starfire. Bran's dreaming of knights with swords like starfire. And the star singing. And Ghos'st leading Jon to the dragon glass cache by starlight (the night is moonless)--until the trees block out the stars and he must follow Ghost's red eyes instead. 

But the dragons are innately opposed to stars:

 

 

Jon and the Starks and the Direwolves are drawn to the stars. Jon especially feels hope when he sees stars in a daylight sky.

As does Dany--until the dragons come. And all the life gets burned out of the world, leaving only ashes. But first--the stars leave first as the dragon approaches.

So--yes, direwolves have hellhound imagery. And Starks have warmth and fire. But it's not the same as dragons and Targs. 

Ooof. Dragons opposed to stars? I think you're misreading there. Dragons ARE stars. Stars ARE dragons. The thing which dragons most symbolize is falling stars or meteors / the red comet. What the dragons bring is darkness - they blot out the sun as well. They cover the earth in shadow. They blot out everything. That's because the dragon meteors of the Qarthine tale (again, meteors = dragons) caused the Long Night, They blotted out the sun and moon and stars and covered the earth in shadow. But they are not opposed to stars.

Starry Wisdom church was started by the Bloodstone Emperor, and Quaithe speaks through the stars and encourages Dany to remember that she is a dragon.  The Starry Wisdom church people also sing to the stars, just like the wolves. They may be important differences between dragons and wolves - obviously, there are - but they seem very much a parallel to each other. What does that mean? Why did George create this parallel? That is what I am interested in. What is your thought on this? Do you think this has anything to do with the repeated occurrence of earth and fire magic appearing together or interacting?