WWE Royal Rumble

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

There's pretty much no chance AJ wins the strap I take it?

Did you hear JBL say multiple times that the Raw after 'Mania is weird and that the fans there boo the guys they normally cheer and cheer the guys they normally boo?  He said it to start the show and then again as Reigns was making his way to the ring.  It's pretty obvious that the WWE is still trying to push him as a face for some godforsaken reason.  He's Vince's golden boy.  I don't see any way that Styles wins.

Interestingly enough, the only person that got booed that was supposed to be cheered, at least according to the WWE, was Reigns.  All the other heels got heel reactions and all the other faces got cheered.  Well, except Owens I guess, but he always gets a nice pop when he comes out so it wasn't really any different than usual.

[Joe Pesci]

3 hours ago, briantw said:

Did you hear JBL say multiple times that the Raw after 'Mania is weird and that the fans there boo the guys they normally cheer and cheer the guys they normally boo?  He said it to start the show and then again as Reigns was making his way to the ring.  It's pretty obvious that the WWE is still trying to push him as a face for some godforsaken reason.  He's Vince's golden boy.  I don't see any way that Styles wins.

Interestingly enough, the only person that got booed that was supposed to be cheered, at least according to the WWE, was Reigns.  All the other heels got heel reactions and all the other faces got cheered.  Well, except Owens I guess, but he always gets a nice pop when he comes out so it wasn't really any different than usual.

The lip service they were doing to put Reigns over was really pathetic, and kind of a slap in the face to the fans. Seems like a last ditch effort to me, and Reigns' promo opened the door somewhat to him changing to a heel over the next few weeks/months. Styles is a perfect punching bag if that's the case, and it has to be killing Vince that he's more over than his home grown talent. He'll get a pin over Reigns in either a tag match or some gimmick non title match before the squash at the next ppv.

Apollo Crews is my go to guy for US champion to get that belt back in the picture. Was Kalisto or Ryback even on last night?

[briantw]

6 hours ago, Joe Pesci said:

The lip service they were doing to put Reigns over was really pathetic, and kind of a slap in the face to the fans. Seems like a last ditch effort to me, and Reigns' promo opened the door somewhat to him changing to a heel over the next few weeks/months. Styles is a perfect punching bag if that's the case, and it has to be killing Vince that he's more over than his home grown talent. He'll get a pin over Reigns in either a tag match or some gimmick non title match before the squash at the next ppv.

Apollo Crews is my go to guy for US champion to get that belt back in the picture. Was Kalisto or Ryback even on last night?

Honestly, if they haven't turned him heel by now I don't think it's going to happen.  They've had so many opportunities and haven't pulled the trigger, and that was heading into their biggest show of the year knowing that their golden boy was going to be booed by 100,000 people.  I was pretty sure when they didn't turn him at 'Mania that Vince just said "fuck it" and doesn't care.  It became blatantly obvious when JBL tried to explain away the boos last night, never mind that Roman was booed when he won at 'Mania the night before and at every televised event for the past couple of months.  

The sad thing is that continuing to force him like this is just going to destroy his career.  A heel turn would at least give him a chance for redemption, but the longer he holds that belt and continues to be booked like superman, the more the fans will hate him.  That's especially true if Vince starts feeding IWC fan favorites and much better wrestlers like Styles to him.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Looking to hit up the Network tonight for a good PPV. Any recommendations? Something within the last couple of years. 

Also, when do Rollins and Orton return?

[briantw]

Just now, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Looking to hit up the Network tonight for a good PPV. Any recommendations? Something within the last couple of years. 

Also, when do Rollins and Orton return?

To answer your second question, Orton returns in a couple of months supposedly.  Not sure on Rollins, but I'd guess around that same timeline.  He was cleared to start working in the ring a couple of months ago but I did read he was still limping a bit when he was backstage at 'Mania.  My guess for both would be around the start of June or end of May.  I'd expect Rollins to play a role in the lead-up to Summerslam, probably in a feud with Reigns for the title he never technically lost.

As far as PPVs go, I'd recommend NXT Takeover Rival if you haven't seen it already.  There's a good match between Balor and Neville, a great fatal four way for the Women's Championship, and an excellent main event between Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens.

[Jack Bauer 24]

21 minutes ago, briantw said:

To answer your second question, Orton returns in a couple of months supposedly.  Not sure on Rollins, but I'd guess around that same timeline.  He was cleared to start working in the ring a couple of months ago but I did read he was still limping a bit when he was backstage at 'Mania.  My guess for both would be around the start of June or end of May.  I'd expect Rollins to play a role in the lead-up to Summerslam, probably in a feud with Reigns for the title he never technically lost.

As far as PPVs go, I'd recommend NXT Takeover Rival if you haven't seen it already.  There's a good match between Balor and Neville, a great fatal four way for the Women's Championship, and an excellent main event between Sami Zayn and Kevin Owens.

Thanks! Going to check it out now. I wonder what they'll do with Orton? What else can they really do with him?

[briantw]

7 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Thanks! Going to check it out now. I wonder what they'll do with Orton? What else can they really do with him?

If I were the WWE I'd start using him as like a gateway guy who feuds with the guys on the cusp of entering the main event picture and puts them over.

[Jack Bauer 24]

43 minutes ago, briantw said:

If I were the WWE I'd start using him as like a gateway guy who feuds with the guys on the cusp of entering the main event picture and puts them over.

Hmmm...so he's at that point in his career? I remember back in the day people were saying he was going to be a huge star and the future. How the mighty have fallen. 

Edit: I probably should add that he's a 12 time world champ though.

[briantw]

17 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Hmmm...so he's at that point in his career? I remember back in the day people were saying he was going to be a huge star and the future. How the mighty have fallen. 

Edit: I probably should add that he's a 12 world champ though.

I feel like he's already done pretty much everything, and I think there are other people they should be building up to hold the major title.  Orton doesn't really gain anything by being world champ another time.

[Jack Bauer 24]

12 minutes ago, briantw said:

I feel like he's already done pretty much everything, and I think there are other people they should be building up to hold the major title.  Orton doesn't really gain anything by being world champ another time.

Do you think Cena's days as champ are over? I've heard a lot of people say they'd rather him be champ again rather then Reigns lol.

[briantw]

1 minute ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Do you think Cena's days as champ are over? I've heard a lot of people say they'd rather him be champ again rather then Reigns lol.

No, but Cena moves merchandise in a way that Orton has never been able to.  That's the main thing that keeps him at the top of the card consistently, and the reason he never loses feuds even when it's actively detrimental to the careers of younger guys.  That's also the reason the WWE has refused to turn him heel even though his act has grown incredibly stale among adult fans and his character hasn't changed in a decade.  They're worried that the kiddies will stop buying Cena gear if he is a bad guy.

Personally, I don't really want Cena forced on us as champ any more than Reigns.  Cena is a much better worker, though, and doesn't need to take a five minute break every big match he's in due to shitty cardio like Reigns does.  Cena put on a ton of great matches during his US Championship run last year.  Reigns has put on maybe two or three great singles matches in the past year (basically just last year's 'Mania main event with Lesnar and his Hell in a Cell with Wyatt).  I say singles matches because I don't think it really counts if there's a third guy (or more) in the match who can actually work to distract from the fact that Reigns can't wrestle for shit.

I just hope that the WWE realizes that Reigns isn't the guy sooner rather than later.  I just don't think he has it in him to carry the company.  He moves merchandise, but so would anyone else with a rocket strapped to them like he's had.  I honestly don't think anyone other than Cena or Lesnar move products at this point based solely on their name.  Anyone else who was pushed like Roman would sell t-shirts at a similar or better rate.

[Jack Bauer 24]

Finished Takeover Rival and that was solid all around. The NXT Women's matches are really impressing me. Was that the planned finish between Zayn/Owens?

I think I'm going to watch another Takeover. Maybe the Brooklyn one. How often do they do these Takeovers? They put WWE's main shows to shame.

Zayn/Nakamura is the best match I've seen in years. Nakamura will be in action on the next NXT, so I'm looking forward to that. I hope he starts a program with Balor soon.

[briantw]

51 minutes ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Finished Takeover Rival and that was solid all around. The NXT Women's matches are really impressing me. Was that the planned finish between Zayn/Owens?

I think I'm going to watch another Takeover. Maybe the Brooklyn one. How often do they do these Takeovers? They put WWE's main shows to shame.

Zayn/Nakamura is the best match I've seen in years. Nakamura will be in action on the next NXT, so I'm looking forward to that. I hope he starts a program with Balor soon.

Yeah, that was the planned finish for Zayn/Owens.  They've had that long-term rivalry that NXT played off of, and I think they decided that Sami is better as the underdog face chasing the belt than the guy holding it.  Zayn was also considered main roster ready by that point in NXT, and in fact he was set to go to the main roster before he got hurt on the way to the ring to fight Cena on Raw.  Owens ended up getting the main roster push that was set for Zayn since he too was considered main roster ready pretty much right from the get-go (as evidenced by how quickly they gave him the NXT title...they also mention on Breaking Ground that he was one of the rare few who got a specific pay raise in NXT due to how hard he worked).

I don't know if you've seen Owens' main roster debut match against Cena, but it was at last year's Elimination Chamber and was arguably the best WWE match from last year.  That and the main event (Rollins/Ambrose) were both great matches.  There's also a tag team elimination chamber match, which I believe was the first time they've ever done that.  The other elimination chamber match sucked, though, as it didn't really feature anyone of note and Ryback didn't do shit with the IC title before Owens took it from him.

If you're going through Takeovers, might as well watch Unstoppable next instead of Brooklyn.  It's got the Owens/Zayn rematch (and Sami's last match before he appeared at the Rumble a few months back), Sasha Banks taking on Becky Lynch in a very good match, and a nice Balor/Breeze match to open the show.

After Rival, the order of Takeovers goes like this:
Unstoppable > Brooklyn > Respect > London > Dallas

Brooklyn has the Apollo Crews debut, a Jushin Thunder Liger match against Tyler Breeze, an underwhelming Samoa Joe versus Baron Corbin match (honestly Joe didn't really start impressing me until recently in NXT), an awesome Women's Championship match between Bayley and Sasha, and Owens/Balor in a ladder match for the NXT title.

Respect has the incredible thirty minute Iron Woman re-match between Bayley and Sasha (first time the women got to main event a "PPV" as far as I know, and easily worthy of that slot), Asuka's debut, and the last two matches of the Dusty Rhodes tag tournament.  This one is worth it for the main event alone.  Sasha Banks does an amazing job working a crowd that loves her.  You'll know what I mean by that as you watch the match.  Her and Owens are just gifted at manipulating crowds.

London was probably the only Takeover that hasn't been fantastic.  It wasn't bad, but it didn't hold up to previous renditions.  It's got the first Balor/Joe match as the main event, Bayley taking on Nia Jax, Corbin/Crews, and Asuka/Emma (arguably the best match on the card).  Balor's entrance was awesome, though.

You've seen Dallas, obviously.

They do Takeovers every three months or so.  I agree that they are vastly superior to main roster PPVs.  That's a combination of smarter story line builds and booking and the fact that NXT tends to have fewer wrestlers who aren't great workers, whereas the main roster is packed with them.

[GrimTuesday]

God damn you guys can be whiny smarks. You have to realize that WWE doesn't have to give the fans exactly what they want, otherwise, there would be no point in doing story lines, and you guys would be whining that it was too predictable in a totally different way. Sometimes, it is better for the heel to win, because then the fans are clamoring for the face to win, and I think that for the most part, that is what they are doing, especially with the womens division (boy does that still feel great to say rather than Divas division). Sasha will get her time in the sun, don't worry about that. Also when people whine about guys like Shamus, who are actually pretty good in the ring, I think you guys are forgetting that he is a heel. Heels don't do flippy shit, heels slow down the match and stop the good guys from doing the cool flippy shit that everyone wants to see. I'd actually say that Shamus is actually a damn fine heel, albeit one who could use some better writing (and maybe a dash more charisma).

 

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest. That said, I think you guys are both right, and wrong about Roman. I think that you fellas are right that Roman isn't ready to be the face of the company. The fact of the matter is that he just isn't getting the reactions you want out of your top baby face and continuing to push him as a face is only going to damage him in the long run. That said, I think that eventually he will be a top babyface. The "hardcore" fans might not like him, but everyone says that he gets a great pop at house shows, so maybe there is hope yet. I think that Roman will one day be a good main event guy, but ultimately he just isn't there yet, and they need to find something for him to do without hurting his character.

[briantw]

5 minutes ago, GrimTuesday said:

God damn you guys can be whiny smarks. You have to realize that WWE doesn't have to give the fans exactly what they want, otherwise, there would be no point in doing story lines, and you guys would be whining that it was too predictable in a totally different way. Sometimes, it is better for the heel to win, because then the fans are clamoring for the face to win, and I think that for the most part, that is what they are doing, especially with the womens division (boy does that still feel great to say rather than Divas division). Sasha will get her time in the sun, don't worry about that. Also when people whine about guys like Shamus, who are actually pretty good in the ring, I think you guys are forgetting that he is a heel. Heels don't do flippy shit, heels slow down the match and stop the good guys from doing the cool flippy shit that everyone wants to see. I'd actually say that Shamus is actually a damn fine heel, albeit one who could use some better writing (and maybe a dash more charisma).

I don't think anyone here is complaining about heels winning.  After all, my favorite wrestler, and one that I generally want to win his matches because, duh, he's my favorite wrestler, is Kevin Owens.  Last I checked, he's very much a heel.  What I've been complaining about is that the booking for Wrestlemania was utter shit all around.  And remember, Wrestlemania is different from other shows.  It's the biggest show in wrestling and undoubtedly the one that the most casual fans watch, and as such it has an obligation to give them at least a little bit of what they want.  Even on a normal PPV, the heels shouldn't be winning every match, and it's insane to book an event like Wrestlemania that way.

The problem with Wrestlemania is that it was very obvious what Vince was trying to do.  There are really only two possible explanations for the booking...either it was a deliberate "fuck you" to the fans for not embracing Roman Reigns, or he tried to wear down the audience with heel win after heel win in order to try to get them on board with the "face," Reigns, winning at the end of the night.  Or at least break their spirit so they didn't have it in them to boo.  The first option is just so ridiculous and childish that I could definitely see it being true (after all, Vince is by most accounts one of the most petty people in existence).  The second is probably what actually happened, and it just means that Vince is both delusional and short-sighted, because he just took a giant shit all over his biggest show of the year for dubious reasons.

It's pretty easy to understand why the booking at Wrestlemania was so terrible, and I honestly don't get why people really disagree with the logic.  Jericho winning, for example, made absolutely no sense.  You don't pay a shitload of money to a star like Styles and then have him lose his first feud and first major match.  It's moronic, and doubly so when you intend to make him the number one contender the next night.  Further, Jericho gained absolutely nothing from that win.  A loss there wouldn't have changed his standing within the company and it wouldn't have hurt his stock at all because, let's be honest, no one really cares when Jericho loses.  He's still Jericho.

As for the League of Nations and New Day match, I would have been totally fine with the League winning to establish themselves as a legitimate force to be reckoned with.  That's not what happened though.  They won, and then were totally emasculated by Austin, Foley, and HBK.  It basically rendered their win totally pointless.  Like, if you're going to do that to them, why not just have New Day win to give them the rub and then have the League beat them down after the bell?  It accomplishes the same thing, but doesn't pretend that the League of Nations is a legit threat only to chop their balls off moments later.

And I've been over the women's match half a dozen times already.  The rivalry was set up in such a way that Charlotte, the heel, constantly cheated to win her matches.  A rivalry like that should naturally lead up to a major match (like, say, at Wrestlemania) where that finally catches up to her and the face emerges victorious.  This is Wrestling Booking 101, and the match last Sunday was the time for Charlotte to drop the belt.  She's held it long enough, and there really isn't anyone new for her to face at this point (they're manufacturing a feud with Nattie, which should tell you that they've run out of people for her to fight).  Sasha (or Becky) would have provided a fresh face for the new belt and had a chance to really make an impact on the division.  Also, the fact that a man altered the outcome of the new Women's Championship tells you everything you need to know.  It was stupid.

The ladder match, on the other hand, wasn't won by a heel.  It was won by someone who shouldn't even have been in the match to begin with, and in fact only was because Neville got hurt.  I also hate when they hot shot titles around like they're doing right now with the IC belt, as it makes them feel unimportant.  That belt meant something when Owens and Ambrose were feuding over it.  Now, with two jobbers like Miz and Ryder fighting for it, it's meaningless.  I get that Zayn and Owens don't need a belt for their rivalry to be hot, but if that's the case give it to someone else who can elevate it like Styles instead of handing it over to a couple of guys who haven't been relevant in literally years.

The outcome of Brock/Ambrose didn't matter so much as the actual match itself.  It was too short and did nothing for Ambrose.  The purpose of that match should have been to make him look like a star, especially since Brock was about to disappear for a few months afterward.  Instead, it was a pretty typical Brock match.  He did a bunch of suplexes and Ambrose didn't do much of anything.  It was a whole lot of build to not a lot of action.  It's been reported that a lot of what Ambrose wanted to do was not allowed, and I suspect that this is because they didn't want Ambrose to take the shine away from Reigns.  Either way, the match itself was boring and Ambrose didn't get any rub from it.

I won't get into Undertaker/Shane again.  Suffice it to say that Taker winning basically rendered the entire build for the match worthless and the booking was godawful.  Shane should not be going toe to toe with the Undertaker in a wrestling match.

As far as Sheamus goes, has anyone really been complaining about him?  I think he's a decent enough worker.  He's not amazing by any means, but he's not offensive either.  I find his style to be a bit boring most of the time, and he shouldn't be anywhere near the main title, but as a mid-card heel he's perfectly adequate.  It's a shame they're making him, Rusev, and Del Rio look like such fucking jokes, but that's what the WWE does to most of its heels these days.  It's why they struggle so mightily to create stars.  A hero is only as good as his villain, and when all your villains are constantly emasculated at every turn, it's no surprise that it's underwhelming when the heroes beat them.

I also think that heels can be entertaining in the ring and still be heels.  Owens is a master of this.  He's one of the best workers in the company and highly entertaining in the ring, but he also knows how to manipulate a crowd and get them to boo him.  You can't really say the same about Sheamus.  

[Jack Bauer 24]

1 hour ago, briantw said:

Yeah, that was the planned finish for Zayn/Owens.  They've had that long-term rivalry that NXT played off of, and I think they decided that Sami is better as the underdog face chasing the belt than the guy holding it.  Zayn was also considered main roster ready by that point in NXT, and in fact he was set to go to the main roster before he got hurt on the way to the ring to fight Cena on Raw.  Owens ended up getting the main roster push that was set for Zayn since he too was considered main roster ready pretty much right from the get-go (as evidenced by how quickly they gave him the NXT title...they also mention on Breaking Ground that he was one of the rare few who got a specific pay raise in NXT due to how hard he worked).

I don't know if you've seen Owens' main roster debut match against Cena, but it was at last year's Elimination Chamber and was arguably the best WWE match from last year.  That and the main event (Rollins/Ambrose) were both great matches.  There's also a tag team elimination chamber match, which I believe was the first time they've ever done that.  The other elimination chamber match sucked, though, as it didn't really feature anyone of note and Ryback didn't do shit with the IC title before Owens took it from him.

If you're going through Takeovers, might as well watch Unstoppable next instead of Brooklyn.  It's got the Owens/Zayn rematch (and Sami's last match before he appeared at the Rumble a few months back), Sasha Banks taking on Becky Lynch in a very good match, and a nice Balor/Breeze match to open the show.

After Rival, the order of Takeovers goes like this:
Unstoppable > Brooklyn > Respect > London > Dallas

Brooklyn has the Apollo Crews debut, a Jushin Thunder Liger match against Tyler Breeze, an underwhelming Samoa Joe versus Baron Corbin match (honestly Joe didn't really start impressing me until recently in NXT), an awesome Women's Championship match between Bayley and Sasha, and Owens/Balor in a ladder match for the NXT title.

Respect has the incredible thirty minute Iron Woman re-match between Bayley and Sasha (first time the women got to main event a "PPV" as far as I know, and easily worthy of that slot), Asuka's debut, and the last two matches of the Dusty Rhodes tag tournament.  This one is worth it for the main event alone.  Sasha Banks does an amazing job working a crowd that loves her.  You'll know what I mean by that as you watch the match.  Her and Owens are just gifted at manipulating crowds.

London was probably the only Takeover that hasn't been fantastic.  It wasn't bad, but it didn't hold up to previous renditions.  It's got the first Balor/Joe match as the main event, Bayley taking on Nia Jax, Corbin/Crews, and Asuka/Emma (arguably the best match on the card).  Balor's entrance was awesome, though.

You've seen Dallas, obviously.

They do Takeovers every three months or so.  I agree that they are vastly superior to main roster PPVs.  That's a combination of smarter story line builds and booking and the fact that NXT tends to have fewer wrestlers who aren't great workers, whereas the main roster is packed with them.

Thanks for the info, I'll run off a couple of Takeovers tomorrow and I'll just go in order. I have seen that Elimination Chamber with Owens/Cena and yeah that match was incredible. Owens is just all around awesome and I hope he gets a world title run eventually. One thing is for sure though and that is I will be watching NXT weekly for now on. Can't say the same about the main roster. I honestly just read the RAW results most of the time and if something catches my eye then I go back and watch it. The Network is truly an amazing value and I'll continue to watch all of the PPV's at least. I hope Styles gets a good run, but I don't trust Vince will give him a real shot at running with the belt.

Also, does anyone watch TNA, or is that company dead? I haven't watched one of their shows in years. I was at the show where Christian won the title which was really cool though. I've always been a big Edge and Christian guy and have always felt Vince really dropped the ball with Christian.

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Jack Bauer 24 said:

Thanks for the info, I'll run off a couple of Takeovers tomorrow and I'll just go in order. I have seen that Elimination Chamber with Owens/Cena and yeah that match was incredible. Owens is just all around awesome and I hope he gets a world title run eventually. One thing is for sure though and that is I will be watching NXT weekly for now on. Can't say the same about the main roster. I honestly just read the RAW results most of the time and if something catches my eye then I go back and watch it. The Network is truly an amazing value and I'll continue to watch all of the PPV's at least. I hope Styles gets a good run, but I don't trust Vince will give him a real shot at running with the belt.

Also, does anyone watch TNA, or is that company dead? I haven't watched one of their shows in years. I was at the show where Christian won the title which was really cool though. I've always been a big Edge and Christian guy and have always felt Vince really dropped the ball with Christian.

I usually DVR Raw and start watching it an hour and a half into it, using the recap on 411 to let me know what I can safely skip, which is usually most of it.

Never got into TNA.  It started when I wasn't following wrestling, so I never developed any sort of attachment or loyalty to it, and now its best days are clearly behind it.  I only started watching again like two years ago.  Kevin Owens is actually the guy who brought me back.  I got the Network just to check out some old PPVs when I was bored at work (I work from home semi-regularly), and ended up reading that NXT (which I hadn't heard of prior) was doing a live event that was pretty hyped up.  I decided to check it out, and it just so happened to be the one where Owens debuted, Zayn won the world title, and then Owens destroyed him after the match.  Needless to say, Owens and Zayn pretty instantly established themselves as must-watch guys.  Neville too, although sadly he hasn't caught on on the main roster like Owens has and Zayn undoubtedly will.

Speaking of Neville, he and Owens had a tremendous match on a regular NXT episode.  Google tells me that it was on February 18th, 2015.  That wouldn't be a bad thing to check out.  That was the match that really solidified Owens as a guy I had to follow.  I personally thought it was even better than his first match with Zayn in NXT.

[GrimTuesday]

49 minutes ago, briantw said:

I don't think anyone here is complaining about heels winning.  After all, my favorite wrestler, and one that I generally want to win his matches because, duh, he's my favorite wrestler, is Kevin Owens.  Last I checked, he's very much a heel.  What I've been complaining about is that the booking for Wrestlemania was utter shit all around.  And remember, Wrestlemania is different from other shows.  It's the biggest show in wrestling and undoubtedly the one that the most casual fans watch, and as such it has an obligation to give them at least a little bit of what they want.  Even on a normal PPV, the heels shouldn't be winning every match, and it's insane to book an event like Wrestlemania that way.

Nah, I'm more talking about how you all have been sitting here whining about how WWE isn't giving the fans what they want. Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like how they are doing things, I generally agree with everything you said (less so on the topic of the womens match), but I think that you are falling into a trap that a lot of fans fall into, where folks think that the fans should dictate the entire direction of the show, and that's not the case. Sure, they should listen to the crowds, but when you consider that realistically, the people who are at the tapings are just a fraction of the actual audience (not everyone wants to go to actual shows, and cost is a prohibitive factor as well) and as I said, guys like Reigns are super over at house shows, you can't just go off the Raw and Smackdown crowds. A lot of the writing may be shit, and Vince is pretty out of touch, but the reality is that if they just listened to the crowd, there would be no surprises, and guys who might be good, but at the time aren't really over, would be buried in an entirely different way. It's the same as you don't expect your favorite tv show to bend itself to your will.

I really hope that they're giving Ryder a real chance to shine, because he is a great wrestler, can talk pretty well, and is seems to actually be pretty over. Miz also deserves this chance, because whether you realize it or not, Miz is a great heel, there is a reason he has been shunted off to the lower midcard as of late, but still gets a solid heel reaction. You call them Jobbers, but how does anyone ever rise above jobber status if they are never given the oppertunity to? I'm actually really intrigued to see where this goes, because while it could be a disaster, it could also end up being a really good story line that elevates both of them.

Also, lets not start hating on Nattie, she is one of the best females on the roster, and frankly deserves a storyline (probably building to a Hart vs Flair thing at Payback or whatever the next PPV is). The crowd's desire to see Sasha win the title won't go away, and her being denied what should be hers will only intensify it.

[lessthanluke]

Miz is the most under rated guy on the roster imo.

[briantw]

7 hours ago, GrimTuesday said:

Nah, I'm more talking about how you all have been sitting here whining about how WWE isn't giving the fans what they want. Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like how they are doing things, I generally agree with everything you said (less so on the topic of the womens match), but I think that you are falling into a trap that a lot of fans fall into, where folks think that the fans should dictate the entire direction of the show, and that's not the case. Sure, they should listen to the crowds, but when you consider that realistically, the people who are at the tapings are just a fraction of the actual audience (not everyone wants to go to actual shows, and cost is a prohibitive factor as well) and as I said, guys like Reigns are super over at house shows, you can't just go off the Raw and Smackdown crowds. A lot of the writing may be shit, and Vince is pretty out of touch, but the reality is that if they just listened to the crowd, there would be no surprises, and guys who might be good, but at the time aren't really over, would be buried in an entirely different way. It's the same as you don't expect your favorite tv show to bend itself to your will.

I really hope that they're giving Ryder a real chance to shine, because he is a great wrestler, can talk pretty well, and is seems to actually be pretty over. Miz also deserves this chance, because whether you realize it or not, Miz is a great heel, there is a reason he has been shunted off to the lower midcard as of late, but still gets a solid heel reaction. You call them Jobbers, but how does anyone ever rise above jobber status if they are never given the oppertunity to? I'm actually really intrigued to see where this goes, because while it could be a disaster, it could also end up being a really good story line that elevates both of them.

Also, lets not start hating on Nattie, she is one of the best females on the roster, and frankly deserves a storyline (probably building to a Hart vs Flair thing at Payback or whatever the next PPV is). The crowd's desire to see Sasha win the title won't go away, and her being denied what should be hers will only intensify it.

There's a line somewhere between always giving the people want they want and basically never doing it, and the WWE these days veers largely toward the latter.

As far as house shows go, I put very little stock in crowd reactions at those because, by and large, they are filled with kids and casual fans.  I'm not disparaging those people, but they are generally willing to cheer for who the WWE tells them to, and that could be anyone.  They cheer for Roman Reigns because the WWE has spent two years telling them they should cheer for him.  If they told them to cheer for someone else, they'd do that too.  If they strapped the rocket to a different back, that guy would cheered just as hard at house shows and sell just as much merchandise, if not more, than Roman Reigns.  

The refusal to listen to fans, though, really shows how the WWE has changed since the height of their popularity during the Attitude Era.  During that era, they were willing to listen to fans and alter directions accordingly.  When Austin started really getting over as a mid-card heel, they didn't punish him.  They turned him face, pushed him hard, and made him the most popular wrestler they've ever had.  When the Rock was bombing during his initial push, they turned him heel, gave him time to find his character and get himself over, and then started pushing him hard again.  They didn't always do what the fans wanted, but they were generally willing to listen and adjust their plans.

Today is totally different.  You can kind of look at Dean Ambrose as Stone Cold and Reigns as the Rock.  The parallels are certainly there.  If Austin started getting himself over today and that wasn't the original plan, they'd have made him the Rock's sidekick to try to siphon off his popularity, and they would have kept pushing the Rock as a face no matter how many fans refused to accept him.  They just don't give a shit about the fans any more.

With the Miz, the issue isn't pushing him again.  I actually like Miz.  He's a solid mid-card heel.  The issue is that they've booked him to be totally irrelevant for literally years now and then suddenly decide to exhume his corpse and strap a title on him.  What this does is make the title look insignificant.  If you're going to push a guy after two years of jobbing him out, you need to start him out winning at least one non-title feud.  The same is true for Ryder.  He spent almost five years in exile and then they just threw a title on him.  The IC title went from seeming like a legitimately important title to meaningless literally overnight.  A title is only as good as the guy holding it, and right now the two guys fighting over the IC title have been jobbing for so long that neither is even remotely credible as a champion.

I also don't have a problem with Nattie, and in fact I agree that she's one of the better women wrestlers in the company.  However, this is another case of seemingly random booking.  They obviously didn't want Charlotte to continue feuding with Sasha or Becky just yet, and so they drew a name out of a hat.  If they knew that Nattie was going to be fighting Charlotte next, why not give her some actual screen time, let her rack up some nice wins over other women, and build her up like she actually matters?  Instead, she was a meaningless part of that Divas clusterfuck match and just kind of randomly chosen by Charlotte the next night on Raw to be her next opponent.  The problem isn't Nattie herself, but that she hasn't been built to seem even remotely important in the past year.  In fact, she quite literally just lost to Charlotte in a title match a month ago at Roadblock.  Why does she deserve another title shot?  Booking should make sense!

What they should have done is just called up Bayley.  Charlotte beats all comers for the title, even if she mostly cheated to win her matches, and suddenly Bayley's music hits during her gloating speech on Raw and the crowd goes wild.  Hell, the crowd was actually chanting for Bayley.  That story writes itself.  Bayley takes the title from her, and then goes on to have money feuds with Becky and Sasha in a Women's Division built around the four horsewomen.