The Dornishman's Wife Foreshadows Abel's Fate

[LmL]

1 hour ago, A Song of Ass and Fire said:

He said he was cremated, didn't he?  Did not say he was dead.  Maybe his ashes magically possessed some wildling, or he is giving the "official story" of what happened but it was not really Rhaegar's body that was cremated - or maybe Mance and Rhaegar had some connection that we don't know about, and Rhaegar WAS killed, but Lyanna was kidnapped by Mance in the guise of Rhaegar.

This is extremely master-level sarcasm, right? 

[purple-eyes]

Rhaegar has half blackwood blood which is as strong as Bloodraven, so maybe he wargged into a raven when he died and then took the body of mance rayder with the help of bloodraven.

The real mance already died when he went outside the wall. That is why he changed a lot after he came back.

His black cloak was repaired with red silk and red is the color of Targ. This means he came back with "red".

he is not an oathbreaker because Rhaegar never took the oath of the watch.

This is completely possible, I have to say.

In this case, he may not know Jon is his son since he never met him, and he did not even know if Jon is a son or daughter or a stillborn baby.

Since everybody in 7K knew Lyanna died and Jon is a bastard of Ned and he looked nothing like rhaegar, Rhaegar would not know Jon is his son either.

By the way, Dalla also died in childbirth, so this is like a pattern of rhaegar, his women always would have big problem with childbirth.

 

 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, TerrorVoid said:

Sorry, I thought, ladder=stairway.
I meant that only one person can go in a row, which is told to us 

 

No apology required. I understood what you posted. English is a complicated and comical language.

George Carlin was one of my favorite comedians. Short version of one of his routines: It's time to get on the plane, F*&^ that, I'm getting in the plane.

Back to the OP...

[LmL]

15 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Rhaegar has half blackwood blood which is as strong as Bloodraven, so maybe he wargged into a raven when he died and then took the body of mance rayder with the help of bloodraven.

The real mance already died when he went outside the wall. That is why he changed a lot after he came back.

His black cloak was repaired with red silk and red is the color of Targ. This means he came back with "red".

he is not an oathbreaker because Rhaegar never took the oath of the watch.

This is completely possible, I have to say.

In this case, he may not know Jon is his son since he never met him, and he did not even know if Jon is a son or daughter or a stillborn baby.

Since everybody in 7K knew Lyanna died and Jon is a bastard of Ned and he looked nothing like rhaegar, Rhaegar would not know Jon is his son either.

By the way, Dalla also died in childbirth, so this is like a pattern of rhaegar, his women always would have big problem with childbirth.

 

 

 

 

Not be a Debbie downer, but George said Rhaegar is dead. 

He's dead. Leave him be.

There's plenty of characters who are still alive, you know. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 hours ago, TerrorVoid said:

 

Double post. 

[purple-eyes]

19 minutes ago, LmL said:

Not be a Debbie downer, but George said Rhaegar is dead. 

He's dead. Leave him be.

There's plenty of characters who are still alive, you know. 

Yes, rhaegar indeed died in this case. Robert crushed his chest and his body was burned. But only body.

His soul endures.

He is Mance Rayder now, with the soul of Rhaegar inside.

Just like Jon Snow, his body died, but his soul will somehow endure, no matter through what (numerous people suggested Ghost).

or like bran took the body of hodor.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, TerrorVoid said:

Sorry I thought, ladder=stairway.
I meant that only one person can go in a row, which is told to us 

 

The problem with your analogy here is that the Mance would be descending with attackers fighting their way down so the Mance would have the disadvantage.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The proposed scenario still does not make sense to me.

When Roose orders to Freys and Manderlys to leave Abel sits down on the high table table in front of Roose, Ramsay, Lady Dustin, and presumably some other lords.  The Manderlys and the Freys leave the hall but the rest stay to finish eating.  Simultaneously Theon and the spear wives make their move to free Jeyne.  We can't know an exact time table here but I feel that the whole escape from the time the Freys and Manderlys were ordered out took only 15 minutes or less, I simply can't add their filling some buckets with water and walking around up to more than that.

The question of whether or not Mance could escape comes down to this.  When a guard entered the great hall and told Roose and Ramsay something was happening, did he do so immediately after hearing a scream and finding out nothing else, in which case he would only report "heard a scream, don't know what's going on" and would that then lead to every lord and lady at the high table getting up and leaving, along with all the guards at the back of the hall, allowing Mance to slip out?

Or would any # of a bunch of different scenarios take place. 

Would the guard that entered the great hall to report to Roose and Ramsay say, we heard a scream and when we went to investigate we found a few dead men along with a couple of the washer women who came with the singer, and we believe 2 people escaped(possibly being able to name Theon and Arya, possible not) immediately resulting in Mances arrest?

Would the guard entering the great hall reporting that he heard a scream and nothing else have resulted in the entire high table clearing out and all of the guards at the back of the hall leaving with them?  Or would some have stayed behind making Mances escape impossible?

Would a 2nd guard come in quickly after the first then telling the Boltons that they found a few dead men along with a couple of the washerwomen who came with the singer, again resulting in Mances immediate arrest?

All together we cannot completely rule out the possibility of Mance escaping, however given all of the possible scenarios and the very limited amount of time that passes between Jeynes scream and the guards reaching their position, I think it's fair to say that it is more than likely Mance was arrested in the great hall where we last saw him due to the discovery of the 2 washer women's bodies.  Had Jeyne not screamed, they may very well have escaped unnoticed, allowing Mance the time to do the same or hide in the crypts, but Jeyne did scream.

 

[Warm Pie]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The problem with your analogy here is that the Mance would be descending with attackers fighting their way down so the Mance would have the disadvantage.

Mance escapes the hall and goes to the crypt.  Anyone who wants to attack him has to descend the stair, one at a time.  So, he can't be overcome by numbers.

 

58 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The question of whether or not Mance could escape comes down to this.  When a guard entered the great hall and told Roose and Ramsay something was happening, did he do so immediately after hearing a scream and finding out nothing else, in which case he would only report "heard a scream, don't know what's going on" and would that then lead to every lord and lady at the high table getting up and leaving, along with all the guards at the back of the hall, allowing Mance to slip out?

Why would there be guards at the back of the hall?  The guards should be near the entrance.

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, Warm Pie said:

Mance escapes the hall and goes to the crypt.  Anyone who wants to attack him has to descend the stair, one at a time.  So, he can't be overcome by numbers.

 

Why would there be guards at the back of the hall?  The guards should be near the entrance.

There is another entrance at the back of the hall called the Lords door which is where others in this thread were saying Mance would escape, and also because their job is to protect their lords, so they would not just stay at the opposite end of a large room.

[Warm Pie]

2 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

There is another entrance at the back of the hall called the Lords door which is where others in this thread were saying Mance would escape.

Yes, but why would it be guarded?  No one is going to be attacking from there, and it's supposed to be a secret, so the guards wouldn't even know about it.

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Warm Pie said:

Mance escapes the hall and goes to the crypt.  Anyone who wants to attack him has to descend the stair, one at a time.  So, he can't be overcome by numbers.

 

 

But the attackers would attack from above, which as terrorvoid ironically pointed out gives a huge advantage to the attacker. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

2 minutes ago, Warm Pie said:

Yes, but why would it be guarded?  No one is going to be attacking from there, and it's supposed to be a secret, so the guards wouldn't even know about it.

Everyone watches the lord come and go from there, and even if they didn't it would seem piss poor security to leave it unguarded.  Also as in the 2nd half of my post, why would all the guards be at the opposite end of the hall as the people they were there to protect?

[aryagonnakill#2]

Just now, Lost Melnibonean said:

But the attackers would attack from above, which as terrorvoid ironically pointed out gives a huge advantage to the attacker. 

It's kind of irrelevant in any point, even if Mance was sleighing men 1 at a time they would just have a couple crossbowmen bolt the shit out of him.

[Clegane'sPup]

Quote

The wildling began to scrape the dirt out from beneath his nails with the point of his dagger. "I've sung my songs, fought my battles, drunk summer wine, tasted the Dornishman's wife. A man should die the way he's lived. For me that's steel in hand."

The way I read the above quote is that he will go out fighting. Yet, there is the possibility that The Mance may have been over taken by the men in the hall. Let’s take a look at what is happening in chapter 51.

 

Theon sat in the back of the hall not far from the horses watching Abel, Rowan & Squirrel. It is break your fast time. Theon turns to Abel, “This will not work.” They are together at the back of the hall.

Upon the dais Ramsey & Roose are arguing. In the front of the hall.

The doors open with a crash & the dead Frey kid is brought in. Arguing & fighting ensues. A raven arrived sometime during this. Roose tells Frey & Manderly men to prepare to leave. Prepare to leave, in my experience means git your shite together. Confusion.

Roose at the dais, searches the hall until he finds Abel (located in the back of the hall). Tells Abel to come sing something. Abel saunters up to the dais & seats himself on the high table. My, oh my, what a good view that is.

Rowan tells Theon bath time is now.

Clad as serving girls in layers of drab grey roughspun, they wore brown woolen cloaks lined with white rabbit fur.<snip> Myrtle had servant's garb for Rowan. "The yards are crawling with fools," she warned them. "They mean to ride out."

The women make the switch leaving Squirrel behind.

The yard was a white wilderness, full of half-heard sounds that echoed strangely amidst the storm. The icy trenches rose around them, knee high, then waist high, then higher than their heads. They were in the heart of Winterfell with the castle all around them, but no sign of it could be seen. They might have easily been lost amidst the Land of Always Winter, a thousand leagues beyond the Wall.

Those cloaks the women wore, the ones lined with white rabbit fur, could have easily been turned inside out thereby getting lost in the white wilderness.

Holly kills a guard. Frenya kills a guard. Jeyne screams.  From behind them came alarms & sounds of running feet, then the blast of a trumpet from the ramparts of the inner wall. Sounds like to me most of the people in WF are in a state of confusion. More than enough time for The Mance to make a getaway from the hall.

After all this excitement Roose is still breaking his fast at the dais and arguing with Ramsey? I don’t think so.

Chapter 62

Asha says they had been three days from WF for 19 days & the Banker shows up with Theon & Jeyne.

Chapter 69

Jon receives the pink/bastard letter.

End.

 

Martin releases the TWoW Theon chapter that was supposed to take place in ADwD. My thoughts may be out of sequence but hopefully people will get my drift.

 

[Artos Cold]

3 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Rhaegar has half blackwood blood which is as strong as Bloodraven, so maybe he wargged into a raven when he died and then took the body of mance rayder with the help of bloodraven.

The real mance already died when he went outside the wall. That is why he changed a lot after he came back.

His black cloak was repaired with red silk and red is the color of Targ. This means he came back with "red".

he is not an oathbreaker because Rhaegar never took the oath of the watch.

This is completely possible, I have to say.

In this case, he may not know Jon is his son since he never met him, and he did not even know if Jon is a son or daughter or a stillborn baby.

Since everybody in 7K knew Lyanna died and Jon is a bastard of Ned and he looked nothing like rhaegar, Rhaegar would not know Jon is his son either.

By the way, Dalla also died in childbirth, so this is like a pattern of rhaegar, his women always would have big problem with childbirth.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

42 minutes ago, Artos Cold said:

 

Did I not see this on the first page of the thread? It was funny then. Not so much now.

[Artos Cold]

6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Did I not see this on the first page of the thread? It was funny then. Not so much now.

Aw, now im sad. I shall endever to find new gifs. 

[LmL]

26 minutes ago, Artos Cold said:

Aw, now im sad. I shall endever to find new gifs. 

I was gonna drop this one earlier on the Rhaegar warged into Mance idea:

[Artos Cold]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

I was gonna drop this one earlier on the Rhaegar warged into Mance idea:

Thats a good one.