Rhaella as Quaithe from Radio westeros

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Xaro is specifically sent to Meereen as the envoy of the Pureborn because he volunteers, convinced that he can talk some sense to Daenerys. He says as much himself in ADwD. Whether he already had an official capacity in ACoK is unclear. I could easily see the Pureborn and the other Qartheen dismissing this dragon tale completely, and only Xaro, Pyat Pree, and Quaithe being curious enough to investigate it.

Quaithe especially could just be a Asshai'i/Shadowlander who happens to be in Qarth when Jhogo arrives (or posing as such a person), being curious about this story for private reasons.

Her overall behavior does not suggest at all that she is deeply connected with Xaro or Pyat Pree, nor any of the other Qartheen. She appears to be a neutral outsider, or at least tries to appear as such to Daenerys (who realizes this and inquires what the hell Quaithe wants from her if she doesn't want anything openly).

She has been around for at least half a year in Qarth, since she can inform Dany what the guy climbing the magical ladder couldn't do before that. No, I don't think she just happens to be in Qarth at the right time.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

She has been around for at least half a year in Qarth, since she can inform Dany what the guy climbing the magical ladder couldn't do before that. No, I don't think she just happens to be in Qarth at the right time.

Did she really say she was there to see what the guys couldn't do? Or is that just her magical expertise speaking? I mean, as a sorceress herself she surely could have made an educated guess, couldn't she?

But I'd agree with you that her presence in Qarth most likely was no accident. Much more interesting would be the question where the hell she is now. Still in Qarth? Already off to a place she is expecting Dany to go next (the Dothraki Sea/Vaes Dothrak)? Somewhere in the Free Cities? Or already in Westeros.

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Did she really say she was there to see what the guys couldn't do? Or is that just her magical expertise speaking? I mean, as a sorceress herself she surely could have made an educated guess, couldn't she?

But I'd agree with you that her presence in Qarth most likely was no accident. Much more interesting would be the question where the hell she is now. Still in Qarth? Already off to a place she is expecting Dany to go next (the Dothraki Sea/Vaes Dothrak)? Somewhere in the Free Cities? Or already in Westeros.

Sure, you could try to make the case that Quaithe was simply guessing... but the way it's worded, I doubt it. She relates too precisely what the man could do instead and why he did it. Seems to me that George wants to tell us that Quaithe knows the city and its citizens and their abilities, and has been watching them for a while already.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Sure, you could try to make the case that Quaithe was simply guessing... but the way it's worded, I doubt it. She relates too precisely what the man could do instead and why he did it. Seems to me that George wants to tell us that Quaithe knows the city and its citizens and their abilities, and has been watching them for a while already.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Yeah, unless she's lying I'd say she was there to observe all that. And, of course, she could have been living with the Qartheen for years for all we know. There is no need for us to assume that she was recently in Asshai. Especially in light of what we learned about Asshai in TWoIaF it would be especially unlikely for a foreigner to stay there longer than he or she had to. It is not exactly a nice place, after all.

And if Quaithe turns out to be a born Shadowlander than whatever plot-related role she is supposed to play could have driven her out of her homeland years ago, too. We just have pretty much nothing to do on.

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, unless she's lying I'd say she was there to observe all that. And, of course, she could have been living with the Qartheen for years for all we know. There is no need for us to assume that she was recently in Asshai. Especially in light of what we learned about Asshai in TWoIaF it would be especially unlikely for a foreigner to stay there longer than he or she had to. It is not exactly a nice place, after all.

And if Quaithe turns out to be a born Shadowlander than whatever plot-related role she is supposed to play could have driven her out of her homeland years ago, too. We just have pretty much nothing to do on.

I agree. There are no indications whatsoever to assume she arrived from Asshai recently, and an indication that shehas been a resident in Qarth for at least half a year, but probably much longer than that.

It is unlikely that she is a born Shadowlander: reportedly there are no children in Asshai and she speaks the Common Tongue, without Dany remarking on her having an accent indicating that Quaithe learned it as a second or third language. I agree that she must come from Westeros. I don't think she must be close to Targs and the PtwP prophecy, but if she is, I'm more inclined to believe she's Jenny Oldstones than any of the Targ royals going the wizard route such as Queen Shaera. Jenny would also have a closer personal interest (her ghosts of the Summerhall past) to the recent history and tragedies of the Targs, than Shiera Seastar. Yes, she would around 80 at present, but the magic applied to her regarding her possible burns from the tragedy and what she learned might have kept her younger. I find Shiera Seastar perhaps too symmetrical against Bloodraven.

In order of likelihood (most to least) I'd say Quaithe is

• Quaithe
• Jenny of OldStones
• Shaera
• Shiera
• Ashara
• Rhaella - too many witnesses who would talk (someone always talks)

 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I agree. There are no indications whatsoever to assume she arrived from Asshai recently, and an indication that shehas been a resident in Qarth for at least half a year, but probably much longer than that.

It is unlikely that she is a born Shadowlander: reportedly there are no children in Asshai and she speaks the Common Tongue, without Dany remarking on her having an accent indicating that Quaithe learned it as a second or third language. I agree that she must come from Westeros. I don't think she must be close to Targs and the PtwP prophecy, but if she is, I'm more inclined to believe she's Jenny Oldstones than any of the Targ royals going the wizard route such as Queen Shaera. Jenny would also have a closer personal interest (her ghosts of the Summerhall past) to the recent history and tragedies of the Targs, than Shiera Seastar. Yes, she would around 80 at present, but the magic applied to her regarding her possible burns from the tragedy and what she learned might have kept her younger. I find Shiera Seastar perhaps too symmetrical against Bloodraven.

Well, depending what her plans are, she could have just gone to Qarth to await Daenerys there (because she followed a vision or a dream). We really have no reason to believe that she liked to spend time in Qarth, either.

There are supposedly no children in Asshai, yes, but the books introduced many people who were referred to/identified as 'shadow-men', so there are people from the Shadowlands that are culturally distinct enough to be recognized as such people in places like Vaes Dothrak. While there is a possibility that many migrants to Asshai in the surrounding lands adopt the local culture and wardrobe I'm not sure if I'm buying that. In that sense, I'm inclined that there are indigenous shadowlanders even if there aren't no indigenous Asshai'i.

The fact that Quaithe speaks the Common Tongue apparently with no accent is the best hint that she may be from Westeros. But then, there are people that are very good at learning languages, and Quaithe could have lived many years in Westeros before going to Qarth. I don't think that's very likely but it certainly remains a possibility.

I don't think Rhaella or Shaera are very good candidates for her (although I'd say Shaera is more likely than Rhaella). Jenny doesn't make much sense, either, I think, because we have reason to believe she is either dead or mad (or went mad at Summerhall and has since then long died).

Shiera Seastar is very intriguing in my opinion because she has the necessary magical background, and an unresolved fate. Her as Melisandre's mother could easily work, too. We know little Melony was separated from her unknown mother and sold into slavery, presumably to some red temple (possibly the one in Volantis). We also know that Shiera eventually chose Bloodraven over Bittersteel and was his paramour during the late years of Daeron II and the early years of Aerys I. Now, if the Bittersteel-Bloodraven feud continues, the whole Shiera part of it could continue, too. What if Bittersteel's thugs eventually abduct Shiera, selling her and Bloodraven's young daughter into slavery? Melony is awfully similar a name to Melantha Blackwood, possibly a sister of Betha Blackwood.

Or what if Aegor abducts and rapes Shiera before dumping her, making him the father of Melisandre?

We know from Ran's talk with George about the time he decided the Bloodraven-three-eyed-crow thing that he knew pretty early that the last greenseer was supposed to be some Targaryen bastard (fathered by Aegon the Unworthy). Now, that in itself makes the creation of the great bastards especially interesting. All four of them may have caused lasting ripples throughout history. Bloodraven is still alive and doing stuff. Daemon Blackfyre is the founder of House Blackfyre, which greatly influenced the history of Westeros, and his and Bittersteel's heirs most likely are the people behind the Aegon plan. In fact, Aegon himself might be a descendant of both Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel. Only Shiera remains a mysterious figure. Could be just because she is a woman - but then, she was described as the most beautiful woman of her age, and even her mother was described as a sorceress.

[sweetsunray]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, depending what her plans are, she could have just gone to Qarth to await Daenerys there (because she followed a vision or a dream). We really have no reason to believe that she liked to spend time in Qarth, either.

There are supposedly no children in Asshai, yes, but the books introduced many people who were referred to/identified as 'shadow-men', so there are people from the Shadowlands that are culturally distinct enough to be recognized as such people in places like Vaes Dothrak. While there is a possibility that many migrants to Asshai in the surrounding lands adopt the local culture and wardrobe I'm not sure if I'm buying that. In that sense, I'm inclined that there are indigenous shadowlanders even if there aren't no indigenous Asshai'i.

The fact that Quaithe speaks the Common Tongue apparently with no accent is the best hint that she may be from Westeros. But then, there are people that are very good at learning languages, and Quaithe could have lived many years in Westeros before going to Qarth. I don't think that's very likely but it certainly remains a possibility.

I don't think Rhaella or Shaera are very good candidates for her (although I'd say Shaera is more likely than Rhaella). Jenny doesn't make much sense, either, I think, because we have reason to believe she is either dead or mad (or went mad at Summerhall and has since then long died).

Shiera Seastar is very intriguing in my opinion because she has the necessary magical background, and an unresolved fate. Her as Melisandre's mother could easily work, too. We know little Melony was separated from her unknown mother and sold into slavery, presumably to some red temple (possibly the one in Volantis). We also know that Shiera eventually chose Bloodraven over Bittersteel and was his paramour during the late years of Daeron II and the early years of Aerys I. Now, if the Bittersteel-Bloodraven feud continues, the whole Shiera part of it could continue, too. What if Bittersteel's thugs eventually abduct Shiera, selling her and Bloodraven's young daughter into slavery? Melony is awfully similar a name to Melantha Blackwood, possibly a sister of Betha Blackwood.

Or what if Aegor abducts and rapes Shiera before dumping her, making him the father of Melisandre?

We know from Ran's talk with George about the time he decided the Bloodraven-three-eyed-crow thing that he knew pretty early that the last greenseer was supposed to be some Targaryen bastard (fathered by Aegon the Unworthy). Now, that in itself makes the creation of the great bastards especially interesting. All four of them may have caused lasting ripples throughout history. Bloodraven is still alive and doing stuff. Daemon Blackfyre is the founder of House Blackfyre, which greatly influenced the history of Westeros, and his and Bittersteel's heirs most likely are the people behind the Aegon plan. In fact, Aegon himself might be a descendant of both Daemon Blackfyre and Bittersteel. Only Shiera remains a mysterious figure. Could be just because she is a woman - but then, she was described as the most beautiful woman of her age, and even her mother was described as a sorceress.

I know the arguments for Shiera... but it's almost too smooth, too symmetrical and too convenient for me. I don't see her really adding info to the PtwP, tragedy of Summerhall and Rhaegar taking off with Lyanna much either. It would just be a neat trick in relation to Bloodraven imo. Marwyn might cover events at Dragonstone (for both Rheagar and Dany's birth, but Summerhall and what the heck Rhaegar was doing or seeking in the RL? So, if we want a character to divulge something about PtwP and Summerhal along Marwyn I'm more inclined to go with a woman who was there. Jenny seems the person we have a line for that recalls her mourning it so much that it made it into a song. But that just comes down to personal preference. There is too little info on either of these women to make aything more than a guess.

I do think Rhaella is the biggest problem. Pretending to have her in a childbirth bed in a castle full of servants attending the woman. I just don't see how anyone can pull that one off without any servant blabbing or being deceived. It's different from baby Aegon (though I do believe he's fake). How the hell are you going to keep that secret without killing any servant present at the time?

[Amris]

On 31.1.2016 at 1:40 AM, Lord Varys said:

Well, depending what her plans are, she could have just gone to Qarth to await Daenerys there (because she followed a vision or a dream). We really have no reason to believe that she liked to spend time in Qarth, either.

[snip]

Quaithe was one of three representatives the City of Qarth sent to Daenerys.

I find it hard to believe that the Qartheen would choose a just recently arrived person for such a function.

The fact that Quaithe has been chosen as official representative to Dany makes it look like Quaithe has been a well-known, respected and influential force in Qarth for quite some time.

And if that's true then it is less likely that some of the wilder speculations about her identity are true IMO.

That's because if Quaithe really has been a Qartheen for quite a long time then Quaithe must have been in Qarth long before she could have known that Dany would arrive there. Which means Quaithe can not have travelled to Qarth just to meet Dany. And that means that Quaithe meeting Dany wasn't some long-prepared plot but rather an opportunity that presented itself to Quaithe when Dany emerged from the Dothraki Sea and in possession of dragons. An opportunity that Quaithe then spontaneously seized and has been running with ever since.

(Otherwise one would have to assume that Quaithe really has true precognition (as opposed to just seeing things happening through a glass candle) - and thus knew years ago that Daenerys would arrive in Qarth. So that then - through some arcane foreknowledge - Quaithe settled in Qarth long enough ago and specifically to set herself up in a position of influence just for the purpose of being later chosen as representative and being sent to Dany? That's too contrived to be true IMO. Moreover it is riddled with too many variables to ever have been a viable strategy for Quaithe. For example: Even if she manages to set herself up in a position of influence - where is the guarantee that she will later be chosen as representative? Years of work for such an off-chance? And why would she go to such trouble and adopt such a complicated plan in the first place? If she has precognition (heck - even if she does not) then no one hinders her from meeting Dany elsewhere or in private after all.)

So: If Quaithe is Rhaella - or Ashara - or Shiera - or whoever  then she's been in Qarth coincidentally. Not because of some precognition-riddled, years-ago hatched and unnecessarily complicated plan.

Or she is just - Quaithe.

The latter seems the most likely.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

On 2.2.2016 at 0:44 PM, Amris said:

Quaithe was one of three representatives the City of Qarth sent to Daenerys.

I've just reread the end of the first Dany chapter of ACoK and a good portion of the second Dany chapter. There is no textual evidence for such a claim. Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree, and Quaithe all traveled to Vaes Tolorro 'to see dragons'. But they are never called or refer to themselves as official representatives of Qarth.

Pyat Pree certainly sees himself as representative of the Undying, and Xaro is one of the Thirteen (whether he has their collective interest at heart isn't clear - later on he, and not the Thirteen, wants to marry Dany to gain one of the dragons).

The idea that Quaithe is any official capacity connected to an influential faction in Qarth isn't backed by the text. The actual rulers of the city - the Pureborn - just don't care about Daenerys even after she has arrived. There is little reason to assume that they ever sanctioned the journey to Vaes Tolorro, nor is there any reason to assume that anyone in Qarth outside the warlock circles would ever make Pyat Pree an official ambassador.

Case closed.

[Jak Scaletongue]

On 2016-01-30 at 0:45 PM, sweetsunray said:

First of all, I want to thank you for yet again an outstanding podcast and indeed putting Rhaella forward as an option. The argument that Rhaella might have decided to study in Asshai, where she could not bring her children (or did not wish to risk it), to comprehend the prophecy much better, is a compelling one. I do not have a problem with that at all. What I find problematic is Quaithe as an obvious high ranked personality in whatever her order is and a high ranked emmisiary of Qarth and not contacting or meeting Dany (or Viserys) before the red waste. And it becomes even more problematic when we consider Quaithe having a glass candle to communicate with Marwyn and witness what is going on in the present, which she very unlikely came by only very recently. As the mother, surely she would have watched her children through  the candle. Well, you might argue, she watched them and sent someone for them, but they were always a step ahead of her. But if glass candles allow her to communicate with whomever she wishes who doesn't have a glass candle themselves, what would have kept her from doing that while say Dany was in Pentos with Illyrio, or in Vaes Dothrak, etc. Quaithe coming out to the red waste to see dragons, implies to me that Quaithe was not waching Dany and/or Viserys through glass candles, wasn't even aware of them, and only learned of the birth of dragons by Dany's Ko. And her being a representative of Qarth suggest she was a prominent figure in Qarth for a while already. So, to me it all points to evidence that Quaithe is not a personal relation of Dany at all.

 

Didn't the glass candles just start working recently?  After the birth of the dragons?  Roughly.  If Quaithe is Rhaella (or even if she's not), how would she use unusable glass candles?  Rhaella or not, she still needed magic to return in order to use the candles, correct?  Maybe she couldn't find them with magic until the dragon's hatched (or the comet appeared, or whatever actually brought magic back). 

Maybe Viserys was running from his (possible) mother's agents, instead of the "usurper's knives" he was convinced they were.  Man, that would just be Viserys' lot in life, wouldn't it?  He thinks he's running from these "bad" men but really he's running from people his mom sent to find them!  Sorry - that's just a random thought.  It's a very sad scenario that occurred to me while typing...sometimes you just feel sorry for the poor kid and other times he damn well got what he deserved!

[Jak Scaletongue]

On 2016-01-30 at 1:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

Didn't get around to listen to that one yet, but I generally don't like the idea of women faking their death in childbirth. I'm also very skeptical about the idea that Ashara Dayne might still be alive since we have little to no reason to assume that this is the case.

Rhaella Targaryen was a very prominent figure, and presumably many people on Dragonstone would have visited her death, subsequent cremation, and presumed interment wherever the Targaryens put the ashes of their ancestors on Dragonstone (her remains could lie next to the Conqueror's, Visenya's, or Aenys I's, for all we know).

 

But Dragonstone was under seige when Dany was born. 

I'm not sold on the Rhaella=Quaithe idea, but assuming Rhaella *did* die on childbirth on Dragonstone - they were under siege.  The small folk on the island would be far more worried about the besieging fleet, their lives, their food supplies, etc.  And that's assuming the small folk would be the ones to be invited to a "viewing."  Anyone not on the island wouldn't be able to get to the island to "say goodbye."  The cremation was likely cursory, with a nod to traditions - but while under siege there would likely have been...cuts to the budget, I guess might be a good way to say it...Rhaella wouldn't have had an elaborate Targ funeral and cremation - they would have had to make due with what they had on Dragonstone.  Both people and materials.  The only people who would likely be present would be a young Viserys, baby Dany, Willem Darry and a Maester.  All the guards, soldiers, sailors, and small folk would be much to busy looking to themselves (wasn't it after her death that the guard starts thinking about handing the kids over - probably too busy arguing to go to the funeral!).  It's not impossible there were a few others present, but there wasn't any other Targ family on Dragonstone that we're told about, so anyone else would be employees of the castle and crown (and most of those were already looking to surrender to Stannis, from the tale we've been told).

Rhaella may have been a prominent figure, but under the circumstances, her funeral/cremation wouldn't have been a very prominent occasion.  Even on Dragonstone itself.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Didn't the glass candles just start working recently?  After the birth of the dragons?  Roughly.  If Quaithe is Rhaella (or even if she's not), how would she use unusable glass candles?  Rhaella or not, she still needed magic to return in order to use the candles, correct?  Maybe she couldn't find them with magic until the dragon's hatched (or the comet appeared, or whatever actually brought magic back). 

Maybe Viserys was running from his (possible) mother's agents, instead of the "usurper's knives" he was convinced they were.  Man, that would just be Viserys' lot in life, wouldn't it?  He thinks he's running from these "bad" men but really he's running from people his mom sent to find them!  Sorry - that's just a random thought.  It's a very sad scenario that occurred to me while typing...sometimes you just feel sorry for the poor kid and other times he damn well got what he deserved!

Good point, but then magic was never really completely gone. The Stark children didn't become wargs after Dany became Mother of Dragons. GoHH has had dreams long before that time. And Bloodraven has been a greenseer for a long while too. Same thing for Others and wights. It's more fire magic in particular that seems to be on the rise since the birth of dragons.

Well if there were agents "after" them, they sure weren't sent by Robert. Jon Arryn wouldn't have it, and the attempt on Dany was Robert's first and only order to do so. Personally, I always thought Viserys made them up to hide how he had overstayed his welcome with his entitled behavior and ogling probably his host's daughters. He dragged Dany along with him from city to city,host to host, because nobody else was allowed to have her and then made up bs to her. 

[Jak Scaletongue]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Good point, but then magic was never really completely gone. The Stark children didn't become wargs after Dany became Mother of Dragons. GoHH has had dreams long before that time. And Bloodraven has been a greenseer for a long while too. Same thing for Others and wights. It's more fire magic in particular that seems to be on the rise since the birth of dragons.

Well if there were agents "after" them, they sure weren't sent by Robert. Jon Arryn wouldn't have it, and the attempt on Dany was Robert's first and only order to do so. Personally, I always thought Viserys made them up to hide how he had overstayed his welcome with his entitled behavior and ogling probably his host's daughters. He dragged Dany along with him from city to city,host to host, because nobody else was allowed to have her and then made up bs to her. 

True, and the whole "when exactly did magic return" thing is still all up in the air!  I'm just basing my question off the impression I got from Marwyn and...I wanna say Quaithe, but it might have been Xaros who was talking about the glass candles when they're all in Qarth.  I got the impression that the candles had only started working recently.  But "recently" is up in the air, too - cause at that point even the direwolves were still relatively "recent" additions to the Stark house (though Lady had died by then so "recent" is kind of undefinable by it's very nature, isn't it?) There's definitely too many unknowns about magic, and how it works and how the different types interact and affect one another to know for sure.  RANDOM THOUGHTS AHEAD: But it does seem to ebb and flow, just like tides - the water's not gone, just further away.  In that same vein, maybe magic isn't gone, just harder to work with - and maybe (maybe, maybe) not strong enough to power the glass candles.  Maybe (maybe, maybe) because the weirwoods are physically connected to the earth, the magic continues to work while magic is in ebb but the glass candles are "man-made" and taken from the earth they can only work once magic starts to flow again.  Maybe.  Just random thoughts I'm throwing into the ring!

I'm not convinced there were people following V&D either - like I said, it was just a random thought!  Not necessarily one I agree with, but it came to me nonetheless!  It would be rather sad, pathetic and just down Viserys' alley to be running from his own (hypothetical) mother!

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

But Dragonstone was under seige when Dany was born.

No it was not. Dragonstone was never under siege, actually. Stannis was building a fleet when Rhaella delivered Dany and died in the process. The citadel of Dragonstone and the island itself as well as, presumably, the entire Blackwater Bay was still controlled by the Targaryen fleet at this point, which lay at anchor at Dragonstone and was destroyed in harbor during the storm in the night of Dany's birth.

Later on the garrison of Dragonstone wanted to sell Viserys and Dany to Robert, most likely after their realized they could not oppose the rebels in light of the fact that they had no ships.

There were people all over the place, on the island and in the citadel. People would have witnessed the cremation of the Queen Dowager, people would have attended her at child birth and witnessed her death. Willem Darry later broke Viserys and Dany out of the nursery and fled with them and three other people. The others all remained on Dragonstone and there is no reason to assume that any of them was part of big conspiracy to fake the death of the Queen Dowager, nor is there any good reason to assume that if there was such a conspiracy the people involved all kept their tongues. I mean, they would have to have cremated another female body, a body who would most likely have at least looked somewhat like Queen Rhaella, but we know of no such woman on Dragonstone.

Not to mention that there is really no good reason why Rhaella should leave her children (which were not really in Darry's care by the time of her death). Even if we assume that she wanted to find out stuff about the prophecy she could have waited with that until her children were older and accompanied them to Braavos for the time being.

[Jak Scaletongue]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No it was not. Dragonstone was never under siege, actually. Stannis was building a fleet when Rhaella delivered Dany and died in the process. The citadel of Dragonstone and the island itself as well as, presumably, the entire Blackwater Bay was still controlled by the Targaryen fleet at this point, which lay at anchor at Dragonstone and was destroyed in harbor during the storm in the night of Dany's birth.

Later on the garrison of Dragonstone wanted to sell Viserys and Dany to Robert, most likely after their realized they could not oppose the rebels in light of the fact that they had no ships.

There were people all over the place, on the island and in the citadel. People would have witnessed the cremation of the Queen Dowager, people would have attended her at child birth and witnessed her death. Willem Darry later broke Viserys and Dany out of the nursery and fled with them and three other people. The others all remained on Dragonstone and there is no reason to assume that any of them was part of big conspiracy to fake the death of the Queen Dowager, nor is there any good reason to assume that if there was such a conspiracy the people involved all kept their tongues. I mean, they would have to have cremated another female body, a body who would most likely have at least looked somewhat like Queen Rhaella, but we know of no such woman on Dragonstone.

Not to mention that there is really no good reason why Rhaella should leave her children (which were not really in Darry's care by the time of her death). Even if we assume that she wanted to find out stuff about the prophecy she could have waited with that until her children were older and accompanied them to Braavos for the time being.

Alright, I was mistaken.  The whole timeline of RR is a bit confusing!  Too much going on and I can't keep it all straight!

Don't mistake me - I don't necessarily agree with the theory.  I *like* it, but I don't quite buy it. [I like a lot of things I can't buy ] I was just under the impression the siege had started/happened.  So her "sending off" wasn't quite as bare as I had expected, but it likely wasn't anything elaborate, given the circumstances, either.  But not under siege - got it!

Now, to play devil's advocate for a second - in my opinion, there's never a "good" reason to abandon kids.  But people do it all the time, anyway.  Some reasons are *better* than others, but none of them are "good."  There are infinite reasons a mother could leave her kids - anywhere from "doing what's best for them" to complete indifference, and all the reasons in between.  Given her life with Aerys, even complete indifference isn't off the table as far as I can tell.  She's had a pretty shitty life - PTSD (among other disorders) can cause people to do all sorts of illogical and irrational things.  And a lifetime with Aerys would give anyone PTSD, I think.  Especially if you're his rape repository.  She may have been so completely detached from "real" life that leaving her kids behind wouldn't even register as "bad."  For all we know, she may not have wanted anything to do with her children 14-15 years ago.  Mothers are just as capable of indifference as fathers are.  It's just a *bit* easier for fathers to walk away.  Not to mention we have no idea what side of the Targ coin Rhaella fell onto - maybe she was mad, too.  Just when compared to Aerys she comes off looking sane.  Who wouldn't, when compared to him?  Even Viserys looks somewhat rational compared to late Aerys! 

Anyways, I just don't like the "a mother wouldn't do that" argument - do you read the news!?!?  Mothers are *just* as bad as fathers!  It's entirely possible for a mother to do that!  If RL mothers can lock their kids in closets and feed them through a cat door, then a fictional mother is completely able to up and abandon children.  RL mothers do it every day.  There are plenty of good reasons why Quaithe =/= Rhaella, but "a mother wouldn't abandon her kids" is NOT one of them!  Mothers *do* abandon kids - for lots of reasons!  None of them "good."

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

stuff

Well, pretty much anything can happen. If she wanted to leave Viserys to himself/other people why the hell didn't she do that when she heard the news about KL? Instead she actually crowned Viserys III with her own crown, and stayed on Dragonstone for months until Dany's birth. If she wanted to leave everything behind she could have gone much earlier.

The idea in itself isn't bad, really. I could like it if we had any reason to assume that Rhaella faked her death.

[Jak Scaletongue]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, pretty much anything can happen. If she wanted to leave Viserys to himself/other people why the hell didn't she do that when she heard the news about KL? Instead she actually crowned Viserys III with her own crown, and stayed on Dragonstone for months until Dany's birth. If she wanted to leave everything behind she could have gone much earlier.

The idea in itself isn't bad, really. I could like it if we had any reason to assume that Rhaella faked her death.

Well, traveling while 6-9 months pregnant doesn't really make anything easier...and if she wants to leave behind everything that reminds her of Aerys, that kind of means staying and waiting until Aerys' kid is born, doesn't it?  If she's trying to leave behind *everything* then she kind of has to wait until *everything* is no longer inside her, right? 

[SFDanny]

On January 30, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Lady Gwynhyfvar said:

As we said in the episode, we fully expect many people will find this simply too far fetched. But we think we made a compelling case for the possibility.

I don't want to get into a back and forth on the idea, since we appreciate just having people discuss it. But one objection that seems to have come up a few times (and forgive me, I confess I did not read every post) is that a mother wouldn't leave her children. Since this is actually something we addressed, I think it bears repeating and clarification. Our speculation was that Rhaella was deep into prophecies with her son Rhaegar, and that upon his death she decided that TPtWP must be one of her two remaining children. She would have entrusted the care of her children to Ser Willem Darry, whom we speculate brought them to Braavos to be brought up under the protection of the Sealord, whilst she journeyed to Asshai to research the prophesy (perhaps under the auspices of Marwyn) We think it's hardly abandonment if she had taken measures to see to her children's protection. In such a scenario there's no way she could have foreseen the death of Darry and likely the Sealord as well, nor the plight her children then found themselves in. Considering what we actually know of Viserys' and Dany's childhood they may have been one step ahead of their mother as well as those "hired knives" Dany recalls evading.

Anyways, to quote what we said in our conclusion- any discussion on Quaithe’s identity requires lots of leaps of faith and tinfoil. Overall, no matter who Quaithe really is, we think she's well placed to make a large impact on the story, especially relative to the size of her role. She affects Dany, and enters her decision making process, much the same as the prophesies of the Undying have. Quaithe shows no signs of ambition and her motives seem as obscure as her riddles, so it will be really interesting to see if and how she guides Dany in TWoW.

Let me add my thanks to you and yolkboy for the episode and all the episodes before it. Love the podcasts, and appreciate all the work that must go into making them.

To your point, which I've taken the liberty of putting into bold type to highlight your argument, let me say because you don't see it as abandonment because Rhaella, in your scenario, has taken on a mission and left her children under others care doesn't make it any less abandonment in the eyes of others, both to other readers and, more importantly, in the eyes of some of the characters themselves. Most important of these characters would be Daenerys herself.

Quote

She turned to Ser Barristan. "you protected my father for many years, fought beside my brother on the Trident, but you abandoned Viserys in his exile and bent your knee to the Usurper instead. Why? (ASoS 810-811) bold emphasis added.

Ser Barristan is sworn to protect Viserys and even though Ser Willem Darry has taken over his personal protection while the rebellion rages Selmy makes no effort to ever get to his new king. The unsaid part of this is he also abandons the new born Daenerys to a life without his protection. Yet, even though Ser Willem was alive, Dany views Selmy's decision as abandonment. So,what would be Daenerys's reaction to learning her mother left her and her eight year old brother on Dragonstone, right before the rebel forces land, and right after the greatest part of her protection, the Targaryen fleet, is destroyed? Do you think Rhaella telling her she needed to go study some old prophecy would wipe away the pain of that abandonment? I don't. Do you think the fact Ser Willem was alive when Rhaella left, makes Dany less needful for her mother's love and guidance. Again, I don't. I also don't think that means your scenario is false. I just think for it to be true means we need a lot of explanation of why Rhaella makes the decision to leave.

That decision doesn't have to based on honorable reasons such as Rhaella being the only one who can complete a mission to Asshai. It just has to be based on believable reasons. I raised the question of whether or not Rhaella loves Viserys and Dany. Given the similarities of Viserys to his father, it is possible Rhaella would not even want to see this son win the throne. Given the way in which Daenerys was conceived, it is possible Rhaella can't see her newborn child without thinking of Aerys's rape and brutality towards her. I don't know if any of that is true, but Martin has given us reason to question what are Rhaella's feelings towards her remaining children. We need something like this to explain her decision.

Nor do we know the need Rhaella would feel to travel to Asshai and to learn more concerning prophecy. Why her? Does she share with some of her kin the ability to see, or perhaps to put it more correctly, to dream into the future? We don't know she does, but it is possible. What then is her dream that makes it imperative that she, and no one else, goes to Asshai? If your speculation is true and Marwyn goes with her, why can't she just tell him the dream that necessitates her journey? There is just too much here we don't know.

Which may be my main reason for hesitating in embracing your theory. This isn't just an interesting side story. There would seem to books worth of material concerning this idea needed. It is much more simple if Rhaella just died giving birth, and she just remains a name in the background. "The story grew in the telling" says George often quoting JRRT and this would be one area it has lots of room to grow. Anyways, my thoughts. I'd love to read your response, especially regarding the tie in of this idea the source the Daenerys's dragon eggs.

btw - I have long believed that Marwyn is tied into the events of the Rebellion. I've advanced the idea that he is a maester in attendance to Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. Not only because high born ladies have maesters with them when giving birth, but also because Marwyn fits the profile of a man who would be part of Rhaegar's entourage with his expertise in all things magical. So, I like your idea he could have been the maester on Dragonstone for all the same reasons. Still like my idea better, but yours is good as well.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

On February 5, 2016 at 2:40 PM, SFDanny said:

Let me add my thanks to you and yolkboy for the episode and all the episodes before it. Love the podcasts, and appreciate all the work that must go into making them.

Thanks!! Very happy to hear that and we appreciate the support  

 

On February 5, 2016 at 2:40 PM, SFDanny said:

To your point, which I've taken the liberty of putting into bold type to highlight your argument, let me say because you don't see it as abandonment because Rhaella, in your scenario, has taken on a mission and left her children under others care doesn't make it any less abandonment in the eyes of others, both to other readers and, more importantly, in the eyes of some of the characters themselves. Most important of these characters would be Daenerys herself.

Quote

She turned to Ser Barristan. "you protected my father for many years, fought beside my brother on the Trident, but you abandoned Viserys in his exile and bent your knee to the Usurper instead. Why? (ASoS 810-811) bold emphasis added.

Ser Barristan is sworn to protect Viserys and even though Ser Willem Darry has taken over his personal protection while the rebellion rages Selmy makes no effort to ever get to his new king. The unsaid part of this is he also abandons the new born Daenerys to a life without his protection. Yet, even though Ser Willem was alive, Dany views Selmy's decision as abandonment. So,what would be Daenerys's reaction to learning her mother left her and her eight year old brother on Dragonstone, right before the rebel forces land, and right after the greatest part of her protection, the Targaryen fleet, is destroyed? Do you think Rhaella telling her she needed to go study some old prophecy would wipe away the pain of that abandonment? I don't. Do you think the fact Ser Willem was alive when Rhaella left, makes Dany less needful for her mother's love and guidance. Again, I don't. I also don't think that means your scenario is false. I just think for it to be true means we need a lot of explanation of why Rhaella makes the decision to leave.

This is an excellent point and one we didn't really get into, but I absolutely think that if this scenario, or anything like it, were true Dany would be hugely conflicted. Of course she'd feel the perceived abandonment by her mother very deeply. Obviously from Dany's point of view Willem Darry, and even her brother, would be poor substitutes for parental love and guidance.The important distinction, for me, is that when I said

"We think it's hardly abandonment if she had taken measures to see to her children's protection." 

I was speaking from Rhaella's PoV, in response to the challenge that Rhaella would never abandon her children. (And to be clear about a very minor point, in our scenario Rhaella would have seen to the removal of the children to the relative safety of Braavos before she herself went east)  Clearly mothers often do things that they think are in the best interest in their children that in hindsight, by observers or by the children themselves, can be seen in a negative light. So while we avoided getting into the implications (because time didn't really allow us to dig that deep into what could essentially become a long piece on Dany's emotional balance) we do think there are lot of fascinating and deep possibilities in this scenario. Perhaps to your point here-

On February 5, 2016 at 2:40 PM, SFDanny said:

Which may be my main reason for hesitating in embracing your theory. This isn't just an interesting side story. There would seem to books worth of material concerning this idea needed. It is much more simple if Rhaella just died giving birth, and she just remains a name in the background. "The story grew in the telling" says George often quoting JRRT and this would be one area it has lots of room to grow.

they may be too deep   But we do think the idea is thematically in keeping with the novels and all the characters involved in it.

As for Marwyn... there's a definite need for eyes and ears on Dragonstone if we're to know what went on there during RR. Same goes for ToJ of course, but there are a few other candidates for that which IMO gives an edge to DS. In either case, a connection to Rhaegar seems like an easy one to make. Hopefully that at least will be answered when next we see the Mage in TWoW.

[Guest]

All the episodes of Radio Westeros are worth a listen, but the prophecy ep is truly great.

And LAdy Gwyn is not the once and future queen, but the current