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The Black Dog at the Purple Wedding


LadyoftheNorth72

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12 hours ago, Good Guy Garlan said:

My thoughts exactly. The "Grim" from Harry Potter, basically. Also, ironic that Sandor abandoned the king he was sworn to protect and yet was there, symbolically at least, right next to Joffrey's side when he died. "Joffrey's dog", as several characters referred to him. 

The Grim is exactly what I was thinking. Beat me to the HP reference :ph34r:

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How many eyes did that dog have?

Quote How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

TMK

I think it could be Bloodraven checking it out as well now that you point it out

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What we don't know is that the original Clegane knight, the kennel master, actually cursed the Lannister line for the loss of his dogs and his leg.  Joffrey is just the first casualty to act as payment for the loss of one of the dogs.  Jaime getting his hand cut off was to pay for the lost leg.  Now two lives still remain to be paid since Tywin was deemed insufficient.  The Cleganes will kill the lion AKA the Lannister House.

Spoiler

Or it is just nice imagery and not significant in any way.

 

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Possibly the dog was to symbolize Sandor, former Joffrey's dog. But Sandor is not dead, and is not a skin changer. If Bloodraven was observing, it was thru an unseen raven, not a dog, or a cat.

Previously I had made a joke, that Joffrey had warged into the dog. But it was just a dog, sniffing at a strange stuff.

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On 1/28/2016 at 6:06 PM, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

... I noticed a detail that I have somehow never picked up on before. Just as Joffrey has died and Cersei is sitting holding his body:

"A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse. The boy is gone, Cersei,' Lord Tywin said.  He put his gloved hand on his daughter's shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog."

I feel like my brain is exploding, partly because I never noticed this before, and partly because I have to believe there was some meaning behind this.

...

It's just pretty freaking weird that the animal on the Clegane standard would randomly show up at a formal wedding feast, wander through the crowd for a "hmm" sniff at the murdered king's body, then vanish. 

I'm glad you raised this as a topic. I love it when there's a little throw-away passage that seems insignificant but turns out to contain a lot of possible symbols.

The Sandor Clegane allusion seems like a possibility. I don't think he's a skinchanger, but it could be GRRM symbolically releasing The Hound from his duty of guarding Joffrey by 1) killing off Joffrey and 2) showing the guard and the dog as separate entities at odds with each other.

I also can't help but notice that it's Tywin who speaks immediately after the dog is mentioned. I think GRRM uses this kind of juxtaposition of a symbol and a character to tell us something about the character. In this case, the dog is sniffing the corpse. Because this is a re-read, we know that Tywin will soon be a smelly corpse. Is GRRM foreshadowing, "One Lannister down, one to go"?

I am fascinated by the complex Selaesori Qhoran / Perfumed Seneschal / Stinky Steward symbolism, and I think Tywin's smelly corpse is part of it. So maybe the purpose of the dog is to highlight the act of sniffing, linking Joffrey to that mysterious person in Quaithe's prophesy and/or to Tywin.

It's possible that the hint to the reader is that the dog represents Tywin, somehow. Has Tywin come over to Cersei and Joffrey to make sure that Joffrey is dead? Sort of the way a dog comes over to sniff something in order to check it out? I know there are theories that Tywin has a hand in killing Joffrey, with the motive that he knows Joffrey will make a bad king while Tommen would be good-natured and easy to manipulate. Tommen is associated with kittens, so the black dog could be intended to contrast with the symbolic animal representing Tommen.

Tywin's gloved hand seems significant, too. First of all, weren't they all just eating? Why would Tywin be wearing gloves during a meal? He is the Hand of the King, and a gloved hand might represent a Hand of the King who is hiding something. It could also be a Jaime allusion, of course.

I also agree with the thinking that the dwarf Penny, who rides the dog Crunch as part of the entertainment during the feast, is connected to the symbolic dog that sniffs Joffrey's corpse. I suspect that Penny has a major secret identity that will be revealed TWoW - there are a number of allusions to her as a haunting, menacing figure in the Tyrion POVs of ADwD. Interestingly, a number of Tyrion's nightmares seem to link Tywin and Penny as being the same person. Two sides of the same coin?

Finally, the dog placed at the scene of a new corpse made me recall Weese, the nasty man who was Arya's boss at Harrenhal. I believe that Arya was closely linked to Joffrey when her direwolf bit him. (Each Stark takes on some of the characteristics of, or forms a bond with, the people bitten by their wolves.) The inference at Harrenhal is that Jaqen H'ghar somehow manipulated Weese's dog into killing the man, tearing out his throat and eating his face. Joffrey dies due to a constriction of this throat and his face turns purple. Weese and Joffrey do seem to share completely nasty personalities, both have dog/hound companions, both are linked to Arya. Also, with regard to the dog at the feast sniffing the corpse, the wiki reminds me that one of Weese's significant quotes has to do with being able to smell defiance, pride, disobedience, fear, etc. Smell again.

If Weese's personality and death symbolize and foreshadow Joffrey, I wonder whether the others of Arya's  "three deaths" can be symbolically linked to other important deaths? Chiswyck is pushed off a wall. Then Jaqen helps to free the north men and then changes his face, saying it was time for that person to die. I don't see exact matches yet, although there are certainly possibilities.

Weese's dog is killed with a crossbow. Tywin is killed with a crossbow. Hmm.

I'm so glad you raised this as a topic, but I wish I could sort out the meaning. Like a lot of ASOIAF, though, it seems to get more complex the more I dig into it. 

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Great observations, Seams :thumbsup: 

There's an interesting connection between Penny and Tywin - it's Tysha. Just recently, I came across the town of Pennytree again - the tree has hundreds of copper pennies nailed to it, recalling Tywin's brutal handling of Tyrion's marriage to Tysha. Remember she's raped by the garrison and every soldier pays her a piece of silver. Tyrion pays a gold dragon for his 'turn'. Tyrion knows that Tysha genuinely loved him meanwhile. He's very uncomfortable with Penny and doesn't appreciate her advances. I hope the tree isn't meant to foreshadow Penny's fate. 

Regarding sniffing - now this may sound crackpotty, but I think there  are clues relating sniffing and rotting smells to the Others. Old Nan's tales talk about the Others smelling the hot blood of their victims. They hunt maidens riding on giant ice spiders (recalling Ramsay and his girls who hunt women down - the dogs track by sniffing). We also know the Others accept dogs when there are no male babies available. Makes me wonder if the Others rely on scent rather than their eyes. The sweet smelling blue rose in the Wall is also part of this mystery - the difference is it's sweetness. Lyanna loves the scent of blue winter roses and incidentally, she sniffles after hearing Rhaegar's song.

You've got me going on Chiswyck and the northmen! I'll have to look into that soon. 

Edit - Jamie happens to spend a night in Pennytree

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I have no proof, no evidence, no nothing but a sneaking suspicion that the dog is Ned.

We've seen how Bran warged into Summer as he lay dying and how Varamyr leaped into One-Eye at the last moment after failing with Thistle. We also have Robb saying "Grey Wind" and Jon saying "Ghost" just as they meet their ends. So perhaps this trait is available to Ned too and at the last moment before he died he leapt into a nearby dog. And then that dog just happened to make its way into the Red Keep to give the king who killed him one last sniff before he died?

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think is GRRM way to tell us that Joffrey is dead.

"A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse. The boy is gone, Cersei,' Lord Tywin said.  He put his gloved hand on his daughter's shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog."

How other way could he stated, through Cersei's POV, that Joffreys has become a corpse and is in fact dead?

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On 2/4/2016 at 9:03 PM, Seams said:

I'm glad you raised this as a topic. I love it when there's a little throw-away passage that seems insignificant but turns out to contain a lot of possible symbols.

You have just made my brain start running off in a million directions again, AWESOME post.

I agree that there is more than one meaning behind the "perfumed seneschal."

I would LOVE it if you would start a thread regarding things you've noticed about Penny.  Something about her has always seemed... off. 

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I wonder if the dog is meant to transmit a sense of normality. Tywin doesn't seem to be in a hurry, he must have approached rather slowly. Otherwise, the dog would run off at the sight of their guards. He knows too well what has happened and he's only taking Cersei away dully. His words are so cold. The boy is gone.

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On 1/28/2016 at 6:06 PM, LadyoftheNorth72 said:

I'm feeling stupid for asking this literally years and probably seven or eight complete read-throughs of the entire series, but I'll go nuts if I don't.

I always do a read-through prior to a new season (wish I could say prior to a new book release), and this time I noticed a detail that I have somehow never picked up on before. Just as Joffrey has died and Cersei is sitting holding his body:

"A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse. The boy is gone, Cersei,' Lord Tywin said.  He put his gloved hand on his daughter's shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog."

I feel like my brain is exploding, partly because I never noticed this before, and partly because I have to believe there was some meaning behind this.

I'm well aware that various animals, dogs especially, were customarily as common in dining halls as the people, but I find it difficult to imagine that Cersei would have allowed that to be the case for Joff's big feast. 

Obviously the Clegane standard bears three black dogs, but there's been no hint that I can recall of Sandor being a warg. He did have a habit of oddly popping up wherever Sansa was - almost to the point of being stalkerish. But wouldn't there need to be an animal he kept close to warg into, since skinchangers in this series do not actually change their own skin, but slip into that of others? Also, Sandor never seemed to have much personal affinity for Joff.

However , he seems to have a bizarre affinity for both Stark girls (to the extent that he is able), developed independently of each other, and understood them both as they came to understand him. 

It's just pretty freaking weird that the animal on the Clegane standard would randomly show up at a formal wedding feast, wander through the crowd for a "hmm" sniff at the murdered king's body, then vanish. 

Thoughts? Mehs? 

Its the "He's dead" moment.   Joffrey wasn't an animal lover exactly and chances are no dog in the entire castle would normally go near him.  

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I'm wondering if there is a parallel between this black dog's sniffing, and the bit where Robb asks his mother if she thinks it is reasonable that he should have Grey Wind sniff all his knights, and Catelyn's later regretful reflections:

Quote

“Send Ser Rolph away. At once.”
“Where? Back to the Crag, so the Lannisters can mount his head on a spike? Jeyne loves him. He’s her uncle, and a fair knight besides. I need more men like Rolph Spicer, not fewer. I am not going to banish him just because my wolf doesn’t seem to like the way he smells.”...If you had to fall into a woman’s arms, my son, why couldn’t they have been Margaery Tyrell’s? The wealth and power of Highgarden could have made all the difference in the fighting yet to come. And perhaps Grey Wind would have liked the smell of her as well.(ASoS, Ch.14 Catelyn II)

Of course the Spicers are associated with exotic spices, and magic. If Sybil Spicer had a love potion that caused Robb to be besotted, maybe it had a small amount of Basilisk Blood  - not enough to drive the animal crazy, but enough for the dog to detect. And maybe the black dog is a hint that the poison that killed Joffrey was not the strangler, (or that there was more than one attempt made to poison Joffrey)

Or maybe there is another potion, a kind of dog-nip we have not learnt of yet, that a man can eat without tasting, but that smells so irresistible, it is all a dog can do not to tear out the throat of a man that has eaten enough of it? If such a potion exists, Jaquen Haegar has a goodly amount of it to hand:

Quote

Weese was sprawled across the cobbles, his throat a red ruin, eyes gaping sightlessly up at a bank of grey cloud. His ugly spotted dog stood on his chest, lapping at the blood pulsing from his neck, and every so often ripping a mouthful of flesh out of the dead man’s face.(ACoK, Ch.38 Arya VIII)

  We don't really know that Weese was killed by his dog: 'sprawling' suggests he might have 'fallen' and then been eaten by the dog. Or he might have died, as his name suggests, with a weese. There is no mention of his face turning purple, or of him grasping or pointing,  or of a thin keening sound, but these details might have been obscured by the little fact that the dog had ripped his throat out (maybe the dog had heard the sound and attempted to clear the airway, as best he knew how) which might have minimised the purple face, or maybe the purple face symptom escaped Arya's notice, given that there was a dog eating it off Weese at the time.

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On 2/5/2016 at 2:28 PM, John Suburbs said:

I have no proof, no evidence, no nothing but a sneaking suspicion that the dog is Ned.

We've seen how Bran warged into Summer as he lay dying and how Varamyr leaped into One-Eye at the last moment after failing with Thistle. We also have Robb saying "Grey Wind" and Jon saying "Ghost" just as they meet their ends. So perhaps this trait is available to Ned too and at the last moment before he died he leapt into a nearby dog. And then that dog just happened to make its way into the Red Keep to give the king who killed him one last sniff before he died?

I like this! I've seen the theories that Princess Rhaenys skinchanged into her cat, and is still lurking around King's Landing. I think there are going to be lots of secret details that GRRM never reveals, and this may be one of them.

The only drawback, though, is that Ned would try to get back North, I think. Maybe he (the dog) will do that once his Lannister enemies are all gone. Since he didn't want to kill children, he is probably not rejoicing in Joffrey's death. Cersei would be his target, if anyone is.

On 2/20/2016 at 5:29 AM, finger said:

I wonder if the dog is meant to transmit a sense of normality. Tywin doesn't seem to be in a hurry, he must have approached rather slowly. Otherwise, the dog would run off at the sight of their guards. He knows too well what has happened and he's only taking Cersei away dully. His words are so cold. The boy is gone.

It didn't occur to me until rereading your comment that Tywin's words are an echo of Maester Aemon's advice: "Kill the boy and let the man be born." I think "the man" who would be born upon the death of Joffrey is not Tommen. My guess is that Tyrion is the man who will be (symbolically) born.

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There's a parallel to Weese's face being eaten by a dog at Winterfell - the Ryswell man-at-arms who 'falls' of the wall while taking a piss:

Quote

By the time Ben Bones pulled them off, Grey Jeyne had eaten so much of the dead man’s face that half the day was gone before they knew for certain who he’d been: a man-at-arms of four-and-forty years who had marched north with Roger Ryswell.

Knowing that Jeyne Pool is fArya, it's interesting is that Grey Jeyne eats his face, and like Chiswyck (whom Jaqen pushes off a wall), the man-at-arms is also pushed off a wall. 

I've been thinking about the significance of the " Perfumed Seneschal / Stinky Steward" which I'm sure is related to all this dog sniffing as well. I was reading one of Arya's chapters the other day and came across the passage where Lady Smallwood pops her into a bath for a good scrub. Afterwards, Arya says the maids poured some "stinky-sweet" stuff that smelled of flowers over her. This kind of reminded me of Dany's vision in the HotU: A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness ..

So, what does this mean? Maybe this is old news, but I would say Jon is the "perfumed seneschal" that Quaithe warns Dany about. The blue flower at the Wall symbolizes him and Jon was a steward before he became LC. Dany also sees the Starks as belonging to the group she terms "the Usurper's Dogs" -  and considering this, there's every reason for her to regard him as an enemy to be wary of. Then there's also that throw-away remark Aerys made about baby Rhaenys - he refused to touch her, claiming she smelled Dornish. Perhaps Targs are able to discern smells that other's can't? There's that bit about Lyanna sniffling after hearing Rhaegar's song too. 

I'm not sure of Ned warging into a dog. I suppose it's possible - the black dog could be a hint at Shaggy and dogs are the easiest to bond. Maybe. 

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  • 1 month later...

Another thread just reminded me of another scene with a dog sniffing a dead body, from Varamyr's prologue to ADwD. Varamyr (known as Lump) has killed his baby brother, Bump, because he is jealous that Bump is more vigorous and is favored by his parents. He accomplishes the killing by skinchanging into one of the family dogs, which causes the father to kill all three dogs:

When his father found the dogs sniffing round Bump’s body, he had no way of knowing which had done it, so he took his axe to all three. …the sounds the dying dogs had made were terrible to hear, yet Loptail still came when father called him. He was the oldest dog, and his training overcame his terror. By the time Lump slipped inside his skin it was too late.

I'm not sure how or whether this connects to the dogs sniffing Joffrey's or Weese's bodies. It might support John Suburb's notion that Ned warged into a dog at the Red Keep before he died. Maybe he wanted to stick around to protect Sansa.

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On 28.1.2016 at 2:31 AM, Fire Eater said:

In European folklore, there is a black dog that is a nocturnal apparition that serves as a portent of death. It could be a sign of what is to come for the Lannisters. Tywin dies shortly after, and I think the other Lannisters' days are numbered.

It especially refers to a large black, skinny dog, most likely like the one we find here. I too think there is nothing more to it, it is supposed to be a methapor regarding his death.

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  • 1 year later...

I know this is off-topic, but since this ancient thread has been necro'd and I just read it:

On 1/28/2016 at 4:14 PM, Slender Aimry Hill said:

Except, y'know, their height. Giants are fairly non-Andal, no? I don't exactly buy this theory, but it certainly tickles me! Always nice to see a new line being overexamined.

Off the top of my head: Dunk, Lucas Inchfield, Brienne, the Baratheons, the Greyjoys, Andrik the Unsmiling, Left and Right, the Kettleblacks, Godry the Giantslayer vs. Hodor, Royce, and the Umbers. Oh, and Greenbeard, who's Tyroshi, and Lemoncloak, who we don't know what he is.

I'm sure there are more examples of really big people if you search, but I'd be surprised if it were a distinctively First Men thing.

Do a lot of fans think otherwise? Is there a thread somewhere with evidence for the idea?

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