Heresy 182

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, WitteRaaf said:

Strange that the weir woods being northern and presumably icy have warm tones and the shade trees hailing from warmer fiery climes appear darker and colder

I hadn't made the inversion connection until Matthew pointed out the trees near the Undying having the black-barked, blue-leaved tree that grows shade-of-the-evening. You're right in that black and blue seem like icy colors and the white-bark with red leaves of the weirwoods seem like fire colors, and maybe they are positioned for a purpose?

I have posited before that the Starks and Daynes are also positioned as protective "shields" at each end of Westeros. The Starks had Ice...a name which conjures the idea that the sword was made of ice, but which I think was actually named in honor of what that sword kills much like other sword names. Widow's Wail kills husbands, Orphan Maker kills fathers, and Ice kills ice. We aren't given a description as to what it looked like, but I think it was a fiery, shiny, black blade that is deadly to anything created with ice magic.

I think the same is true of Dawn. Dawn was created to kill any threat arising from fire magic. It's icy, reflective appearance should be deadly to anything created with fire magic.

House Dayne awards this sword to a deserving son of the family and he becomes known as the Sword of the Morning. It is my assumption that House Stark is supposed to have a Sword of the Evening. Because I believe that these two families are shields put in place, then it makes sense that the trees once had a purpose as well. I don't recall any Shade of the Evening trees being in southern Westeros, but the Andals eliminated the weirwoods down south, so maybe they cut down all the SofE trees too.

 

[WitteRaaf]

3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I hadn't made the inversion connection until Matthew pointed out the trees near the Undying having the black-barked, blue-leaved tree that grows shade-of-the-evening. You're right in that black and blue seem like icy colors and the white-bark with red leaves of the weirwoods seem like fire colors, and maybe they are positioned for a purpose?

I have posited before that the Starks and Daynes are also positioned as protective "shields" at each end of Westeros. The Starks had Ice...a name which conjures the idea that the sword was made of ice, but which I think was actually named in honor of what that sword kills much like other sword names. Widow's Wail kills husbands, Orphan Maker kills fathers, and Ice kills ice. 

 

This does not bode well of lightbringer

[Melifeather]

19 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

The stories have been separate thus far, but both Dany's dreams and her visions in the HoTU, and GRRM's own series outline indicate that she will eventually be incorporated into the other stories--more accurately, the "ice" and "fire" plotlines will eventually arrive in Westeros, to create one unified Westerosi storyline.

As an example, Dany has had at least one dream of herself fighting icy hordes at the Trident while riding Drogon. Now, I'm not sure that things will play out that literally, but I don't think it's true that the two plotlines are unrelated to one another, it's just that the connection hasn't become clear.

If anything, what may be misleading is Melisandre's world view, which necessarily equates fire with goodness/holiness and ice with evil, forces destined to do battle, when the actual relationship may be something else entirely, perhaps something more in line with Jojen's "the land is one" philosophy.

 

I understand what you are saying, but is it possible that Dany interpreted the stone men as being icy? Because wights look like ordinary people and the white walkers seem few in number. The stone men are also next to a river and she may have mistook the Sorrows for the Trident. Of course I cannot assert this with all certainty, but I think it is a possibility. And don't forget that JonCon has brought greyscale to Westeros. I don't know how quickly this "virus" travels, but it could become an issue later on in the story.

 

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, WitteRaaf said:

This does not bode well of lightbringer

Are you referring to the comet or something else?

[WitteRaaf]

The red sword of heroes, or both if they are synonymous

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, WitteRaaf said:

This does not bode well of lightbringer

I rather like Matthew's suggestion that the fiery sword business is not of itself an identifier of a hero but is something to do with the blood and magic that goes into the making of Valyrian steel, which I took a little further to suggest that perhaps Valyrian blades are intrinsically evil.

[Black Crow]

16 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

I understand what you are saying, but is it possible that Dany interpreted the stone men as being icy? Because wights look like ordinary people and the white walkers seem few in number. The stone men are also next to a river and she may have mistook the Sorrows for the Trident. Of course I cannot assert this with all certainty, but I think it is a possibility. And don't forget that JonCon has brought greyscale to Westeros. I don't know how quickly this "virus" travels, but it could become an issue later on in the story.

 

I have a recollection of GRRM confirming that disease will play a part in what's to come, but as I also recall it was in response to a question and ambiguous as to whether he was talking about disease as the ordinary accompaniment of large scale conflict, or whether there will indeed be an epidemic of greyscale or something similar.

[WitteRaaf]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

I rather like Matthew's suggestion that the fiery sword business is not of itself an identifier of a hero but is something to do with the blood and magic that goes into the making of Valyrian steel, which I took a little further to suggest that perhaps Valyrian blades are intrinsically evil.

I like this 

let me rephrase to see if I understand

lightbringer becomes light stealer?

as in stealing the light of life required in its forging?

[Black Crow]

2 minutes ago, WitteRaaf said:

I like this 

let me rephrase to see if I understand

lightbringer becomes light stealer?

as in stealing the light of life required in its forging?

I don't think that the name lightbringer is that kind of reference, but Sallador's story of the forging of lightbringer was very openly a cautionary tale. He was certainly saying that the sword [and perhaps thereby he who wielded it] was not "good".

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, WitteRaaf said:

The red sword of heroes, or both if they are synonymous

 

I have a theory about Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes, and how it was forged, but it doesn't include Azor Ahai being an actual person. Rather I think it is a story about a celestial event that early people of Essos witnessed and passed down much like the stories about our own stars were. For example the constellation Orion. We're pretty familiar with Orion's belt and the three stars that are most apparent especially in the winter months. They point towards the eastern horizon during winter which explains why some stories refer to those three stars as the three kings of Biblical fame. They point east to the rising sun, which in turn symbolizes the Christ child. I think the Azor Ahai story is like that. I think a comet struck the moon, or maybe one of two moons and the resulting meterors fell to earth, which witnesses called the Nights Watch. They looked like they were carrying burning, fiery swords. And while others have interpreted this story as this heralding the beginning of the Long Night, I think it's how it ended.

 

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I rather like Matthew's suggestion that the fiery sword business is not of itself an identifier of a hero but is something to do with the blood and magic that goes into the making of Valyrian steel, which I took a little further to suggest that perhaps Valyrian blades are intrinsically evil.

 

Evil to fight evil, perhaps?

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Evil to fight evil, perhaps?

Or just plain evil. After all it was Ice which in the end separated Eddard Stark's head from his shoulders. There's also the matter of the passage in the Jade Companion which Maester Aemon marked for Jon Snow. Was he just reinforcing his claim that the sword wielded by Stannis was a fake, or was it something like Sallador's story, suggesting that Azor Ahai was not the saviour Mel was proclaiming him to be

[shizett]

I am not sure if my comment is really related, but how can magic be evil? It is a force. What sentient beings do to other sentient beings can be evil. Calling magic or what it produces "evil" is like calling an earthquake evil.

Also, what does it even mean to rid the world of magic? It is like ridding our world of gravity. AWOIAF is not a world like us, it is a magical world. Have we had any evidence suggesting that there was a time where there was no magic?

4 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Or just plain evil. After all it was Ice which in the end separated Eddard Stark's head from his shoulders. There's also the matter of the passage in the Jade Companion which Maester Aemon marked for Jon Snow. Was he just reinforcing his claim that the sword wielded by Stannis was a fake, or was it something like Sallador's story, suggesting that Azor Ahai was not the saviour Mel was proclaiming him to be

It wasn't Ice, Ice didn't suddenly start moving on its own, killing people, somebody commanded it, somebody wielded it, Ned died. This is a very strange understanding of events! Or am I missing your meaning?

As for AA, he/she might be a savior while causing lots of damage and suffering.  We are never even told what it is he is supposed to save, it might not even be humanity. It might be balance (something that many like to say), balance is not humanity, it is beyond humans. It won't even make AA evil, just irrelevant to human struggle. 

[Melifeather]

29 minutes ago, shizett said:

I am not sure if my comment is really related, but how can magic be evil? It is a force. What sentient beings do to other sentient beings can be evil. Calling magic or what it produces "evil" is like calling an earthquake evil.

Also, what does it even mean to rid the world of magic? It is like ridding our world of gravity. AWOIAF is not a world like us, it is a magical world. Have we had any evidence suggesting that there was a time where there was no magic?

It wasn't Ice, Ice didn't suddenly start moving on its own, killing people, somebody commanded it, somebody wielded it, Ned died. This is a very strange understanding of events! Or am I missing your meaning?

As for AA, he/she might be a savior while causing lots of damage and suffering.  We are never even told what it is he is supposed to save, it might not even be humanity. It might be balance (something that many like to say), balance is not humanity, it is beyond humans. It won't even make AA evil, just irrelevant to human struggle. 

I agree magic isn't inherently evil. It kind of sounds like our real world discussion of guns! You are right! Magic doesn't kill people. People do!

People aren't perfect and can be corrupted. No one can truly make an honorable decision that doesn't also have a negative effect on someone else and I think Ned Stark was the best example of this. He was known to be honorable in all things, and yet he still did things that we could question as being truly honorable. He would justify his actions and some of others as being "not without some honor", so there truly is no way that anyone can be honorable or righteous without also harming someone else.

Magic is like having a nuclear weapon. How do you decide if it is safe for anyone to have?

[shizett]

2 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree magic isn't inherently evil. It kind of sounds like our real world discussion of guns! You are right! Magic doesn't kill people. People do!

People aren't perfect and can be corrupted. No one can truly make an honorable decision that doesn't also have a negative effect on someone else and I think Ned Stark was the best example of this. He was known to be honorable in all things, and yet he still did things that we could question as being truly honorable. He would justify his actions and some of others as being "not without some honor", so there truly is no way that anyone can be honorable or righteous without also harming someone else.

Magic is like having a nuclear weapon. How do you decide if it is safe for anyone to have?

This I agree with completely. I think we could say that people can stop the practice of magic and if lucky, make a pact with others who also practice it to stop too.

Thanks for clearing it up, I thought I was missing something fundamental about the discussion.

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, shizett said:

This I agree with completely. I think we could say that people can stop the practice of magic and if lucky, make a pact with others who also practice it to stop too.

Thanks for clearing it up, I thought I was missing something fundamental about the discussion.

Cheers!

[Black Crow]

46 minutes ago, shizett said:

It wasn't Ice, Ice didn't suddenly start moving on its own, killing people, somebody commanded it, somebody wielded it, Ned died. This is a very strange understanding of events! Or am I missing your meaning?

Strictly speaking no, that's perfectly correct but I was once again referencing Moorcock's demon sword Stormbringer which in the end drank the soul of Elric.

I'm not so sure though about supposedly inanimate objects [or magic] not being evil. Ygritte certainly believed that of the Wall and I don't see why when we're dealing with magic, the evil which goes into the creation of something, be it a sword or a great Wall of ice, should not remain within it.

[Matthew.]

55 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Or just plain evil. After all it was Ice which in the end separated Eddard Stark's head from his shoulders. There's also the matter of the passage in the Jade Companion which Maester Aemon marked for Jon Snow. Was he just reinforcing his claim that the sword wielded by Stannis was a fake, or was it something like Sallador's story, suggesting that Azor Ahai was not the saviour Mel was proclaiming him to be

I believe it's the former, as revealed in Aemon's dying rambles to Sam; he seems to expose himself as a true believer in the prophecy, and concludes that Dany is the real deal, and derides Stannis' sword as "light without heat."

Some readers seem to believe that Mel may have subsequently decided that Jon is AA, but I'm of the opinion that she's going to double down on trying to make Stannis "fit" the prophecy, reality be damned, and sacrifice Shireen in an attempt to "wake dragons from stone," with disastrous results--obviously, this is an area where I think the book plot is going to have a lot more going on than the show's adaptation.

[Armstark]

I think one could make an argument that magic is inherently evil to some extent in this world. I believe all magic we see ultimately is a variation of blood magic and blood magic requires sacrifices. It is evil to kill somebody and great magic requires just that. We have also seen very few instances of what could be called "good magic", there is no healing by magic for example. What we have seen is bringing back dead people, soul stealing and destruction. Maybe seeing the future/past and influencing the weather could be called good magic but that's about it. 

[Black Crow]

[WitteRaaf]

 

9 minutes ago, Armstark said:

I think one could make an argument that magic is inherently evil to some extent in this world. I believe all magic we see ultimately is a variation of blood magic and blood magic requires sacrifices. It is evil to kill somebody and great magic requires just that. We have also seen very few instances of what could be called "good magic", there is no healing by magic for example. What we have seen is bringing back dead people, soul stealing and destruction. Maybe seeing the future/past and influencing the weather could be called good magic but that's about it. 

I agree but I'm reminded too of.....

how does it go

and she did this thing, why I cannot say...... 

Maybe a willing sacrifice could generate something good