Waves of Night and Moon Blood: Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire podcast, episode 3

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I finished reading "Sandkings" yesterday, and it really got me thinking more about collective/alien/hive consciousnesses, and about there being multiples on Planetos. In the story there are these insects controlled by a queen mind, four groups of different colors, that sometimes coexist peacefully, sometimes fight, sometimes cooperate. They kind of keep each other balanced and in check. But if they become injured or starved they can get hyperaggressive and things can get out of hand fast. So I really started thinking back about the Asshai as "heart of summer" idea that was going around, in the OBS thread and I think cropped up in your threads as well. So if there is an icy consciousness, maybe there was once a fiery consciousness in the Asshai/Stygai area that was sort of "blown out", i.e. horribly injured, turning it into a shadow consciousness. 

Either way, Martin is really fantastic at writing creepy hive minds. After reading Nightflyers and Sandkings I have enough heebie jeebies to last me until spring, or maybe even until A Dream of Spring. If that's where ASOIAF is going, I don't think any fans will be disappointed. 

Agreed, and on a general level, I think we are in for some creepy ass shit, whatever happens. 

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Yeah, that's a strong possibility IMO. My sense at the moment is that the icy and natural fiery magics come from beings organic to the planet, but I definitely think they've been affected by meteorites. And it may also be that the meteorites are at the heart of it. Weirwoods being not conscious themselves but a sort of vessel for group consciousness does point to the "medium for intelligence" angle. OBS at the Heart of Winter totally works. 

Yes it does seem like the weirwoods may be vessels or repositories for consciousness... the screaming silent faces crying bloody tears suggest its being done to them against their will, don't you think? I've been pondering this recently...  it seems like they would rather not have faces. The faces express anguish and anger. What do you make of that? Could be a sign they are the host of a parasitic intelligence, even. I prefer to think all the greenseer just go into the oort cloud of universal conciseness, a nice warm neural net to cozy up in. But alas, it might not be that way.

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

My going theory at the moment is that Galladon is an alias of the actual SK. Galladon, Simeon Star Eyes, and Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. My current theory has him being forced to leave Dawnia, setting up in Morne on Tarth, then joining Garth's court as part of a Rainbow Guard, then after Garth is killed he goes north, allies with proto-Starks and dives deeper into mystical magics as SSE. But none of that's airtight and all open for tweaking. 

My perception of the Galladon story is that it tells of the moon maiden losing her heart  to make a magic sword - think Dawn made from the heart of a fallen star and the BSE's black moon meteor. Sounds like the same story... but we have a white and black sword, imo, so I've been wondering which story this is - Dawn or LB? It kind of suggests Dawn, doesn't it? I'm wondering if the white Dawn meteorite came from the heart of the moon, while the black ones came from the shell. There's an interesting bit in TWOIAF about two kings of the Fingers in ancient times, one named "Brightstone" and the other "Shell." Of course the fiery hand is a moon destruction symbol, so these two kings might make up the 2 important parts of the moon - the core and the shell. There are other clues like this too... but then we have all the dark hearts, black hearts, fiery hearts, etc, which do not sound like Dawn. SO I haven't written about this idea yet, Im hoping for more clarity. 

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I was quite encouraged in my SK thinking when I read "In the Lost Lands", which features a Sapphire Knight--foremost of his lady's color guard. He's driven by love for and loyalty to his lady, and becomes deeply compromised because of that. And outside the ASOIAF universe that's the only knight I've seen Martin write about. 

It's always tricky to figure out how much we can draw from his older works. I am a fan of considering them, unlike some, but of course we all know it's tricky to figure out what was changed and how much. It's cool that you're digging into them though.

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I will be quite interested if someone who doesn't have SK on the brain all the time picks up on this archetype. :-)

I will stay open for that. I definitely agree NK & NQ were making Others, or at least trying to. I tend to see NK as a sort of Kylo Ren to SK's Darth Vader, but it's completely possible that NK is a phase of SK. I do already think three people are SK, so why not four, lol. 

Another minefield, figuring out what is an echo of what. I feel ya. My strategy is to just consider all the hypotheticals in mind until clear evidence emerges.

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Cool. I get overly worked up about the AE, because the thing that drew me to Durran Durrandon's essay in the first place was the idea that there was an ASOIAF archetypal role for Dany *besides* Nissa Nissa. The idea of Dany's ultimate purpose being the lighter fluid for Jon's shiny new sword was just really galling to me. But I think we've both shown that iterations of Long Night archetypes can play out a lot of different ways in the current story, so I should probably calm down, lol. Sorry if I was overly argumentative. 

Aw, thanks. :-)

Agree 100% that's bullshit. I was excited to discover that AA reborn is actually NN reborn as well, and to see that Jon and Dany both show us Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa symbolism. Just as Jon has his mama's blue flower and his daddy's black and red fire / dragon symbolism, every child has both of their parents "reborn" in them. Dany is no more NN than Jon. They both contain both elements, because they symbolize AA / NN "reborn," the offspring of the sun and moon. This opens up all kinds of possibilities. The idea Jon has to stab Dany to make a sword is like 5th grade analysis. I concur wholeheartedly. And I believe the moon maiden's story does not end with her sacrifice, be it willing or unwilling. The moon has it's revenge, I am thinking. It emerges from the sea after falling from heaven and it has a lot to say. This is another one I am trying to get a more clear vision on before I write it up, but I am working on it.

[LmL]

5 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Exactly! It seems to me that GRRM has combined Prospero's familiar spirit of the air and Disney's kissed-by-fire mer-princess of the same name. If Patchface left bloody footprints I'd bring Anderson into it, too.

Ok, that's cool, because he did the same thing with the idea of "Ygg / Yig." He's combined Yggdrasil of Norse myth with Yig, the Lovecraftian "father of serpents" who's into mind control and whatnot. I won't go into the whole thing but the point is, when he can combine two of his favorite myths, he jumps at the chance... and he's not above word puns like this either. 

Dany leaves bloody footprints in her wake the dragon dream, fwiw.
 

[LmL]

12 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Yes, the MMoL is definitely a sun - but see for yourself

 

I definitely will! I really like your first pearl essay... everyone should go read that as well!

[hiemal]

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

Ok, that's cool, because he did the same thing with the idea of "Ygg / Yig." He's combined Yggdrasil of Norse myth with Yig, the Lovecraftian "father of serpents" who's into mind control and whatnot. I won't go into the whole thing but the point is, when he can combine two of his favorite myths, he jumps at the chance... and he's not above word puns like this either. 

Dany leaves bloody footprints in her wake the dragon dream, fwiw.
 

Dany leaves bloody footprints and ash wherever she walks.

Good catch on Yggradisil and Yig, btw.

[hiemal]

9 minutes ago, LmL said:

My perception of the Galladon story is that it tells of the moon maiden losing her heart  to make a magic sword - think Dawn made from the heart of a fallen star and the BSE's black moon meteor. Sounds like the same story... but we have a white and black sword, imo, so I've been wondering which story this is - Dawn or LB? It kind of suggests Dawn, doesn't it? I'm wondering if the white Dawn meteorite came from the heart of the moon, while the black ones came from the shell. There's an interesting bit in TWOIAF about two kings of the Fingers in ancient times, one named "Brightstone" and the other "Shell." Of course the fiery hand is a moon destruction symbol, so these two kings might make up the 2 important parts of the moon - the core and the shell. There are other clues like this too... but then we have all the dark hearts, black hearts, fiery hearts, etc, which do not sound like Dawn. SO I haven't written about this idea yet, Im hoping for more clarity. 

 

Perhaps the light material is from the moon and the dark from whatever impacted it? Or even, tinfoil time, the "light" and "dark" sides of a moon that keeps one face locked like our own?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

19 minutes ago, LmL said:

Yes it does seem like the weirwoods may be vessels or repositories for consciousness... the screaming silent faces crying bloody tears suggest its being done to them against their will, don't you think? I've been pondering this recently...  it seems like they would rather not have faces. The faces express anguish and anger. What do you make of that? Could be a sign they are the host of a parasitic intelligence, even. I prefer to think all the greenseer just go into the oort cloud of universal conciseness, a nice warm neural net to cozy up in. But alas, it might not be that way.

Interesting thought. I had assumed that ww faces were angry/sad to freak out the First Men as they advanced on CotF territory. Sort of reflecting the feelings of the greenseers under that tree. But it may be something darker. KotLT's sigil is a seemingly happy ww...but that may just be a play on the idea of getting the last laugh, and not to do with real ww's. 

19 minutes ago, LmL said:

My perception of the Galladon story is that it tells of the moon maiden losing her heart  to make a magic sword - think Dawn made from the heart of a fallen star and the BSE's black moon meteor. Sounds like the same story... but we have a white and black sword, imo, so I've been wondering which story this is - Dawn or LB? It kind of suggests Dawn, doesn't it? I'm wondering if the white Dawn meteorite came from the heart of the moon, while the black ones came from the shell. There's an interesting bit in TWOIAF about two kings of the Fingers in ancient times, one named "Brightstone" and the other "Shell." Of course the fiery hand is a moon destruction symbol, so these two kings might make up the 2 important parts of the moon - the core and the shell. There are other clues like this too... but then we have all the dark hearts, black hearts, fiery hearts, etc, which do not sound like Dawn. SO I haven't written about this idea yet, Im hoping for more clarity. 

I'm on board with AE as a moon maiden figure. I get there by a different route, but yeah.

My interpretation of Galladon goes back to my theory about the split swords. I think the AE, when she inherited the ancestral sword Dawn, had it split in two. A smaller one, made for a woman's hand, for her, and a larger one for her bro-lover the SK. He called his sword the Just Maid in her honor (during the Galadon and Ser Wyn phases, before being daubed Ice later). In this case the maiden lost her heart to him in the non-fatal sense, simply by falling in love (it's still made from the heart of a fallen star, though, so there's a bit of a play on words).

Though her splitting and giving away half the family sword might have played into things deteriorating with little bro BSE, so maybe it killed her in a more roundabout way. 

AE's half of Dawn, I think, was taken by the BSE, and later had something dark added to it (dragonglass?) + blood magic to become Lightbringer. 

I'm on board with Dawn being made from moon meteorite. I still like LB as half of original Dawn, but maybe "dark" meteorite, OBS or bloodstone or whatever, was added to change the color.  

Brightstone and shell seem like they might refer to a pearl/oyster situation. Which can also link to the moon, of course. 

 

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

My interpretation of Galladon goes back to my theory about the split swords. I think the AE, when she inherited the ancestral sword Dawn, had it split in two. A smaller one, made for a woman's hand, for her, and a larger one for her bro-lover the SK. He called his sword the Just Maid in her honor (during the Galadon and Ser Wyn phases, before being daubed Ice later). In this case the maiden lost her heart to him in the non-fatal sense, simply by falling in love (it's still made from the heart of a fallen star, though, so there's a bit of a play on words).

Though her splitting and giving away half the family sword might have played into things deteriorating with little bro BSE, so maybe it killed her in a more roundabout way. 

AE's half of Dawn, I think, was taken by the BSE, and later had something dark added to it (dragonglass?) + blood magic to become Lightbringer. 

I'm on board with Dawn being made from moon meteorite. I still like LB as half of original Dawn, but maybe "dark" meteorite, OBS or bloodstone or whatever, was added to change the color.  

Brightstone and shell seem like they might refer to a pearl/oyster situation. Which can also link to the moon, of course. 

 

That's an interesting take on Dawn. We do have the parallel example of two dark swords, Blackfrye and Dark Sister, so it's possible. 

I have some rather creepy thoughts about the forging of Dawn related to pearls, the term 'fallen star' and Ashara's jump from a tower into the ocean. The pearl study indicates that white pearl women are victims of abuse and the circumstances surrounding the original Fisher Pearl Queens mirror this (that's up in part three). Specifically, I think they were captured / stolen because of their magical abilities and forced to perform even for the first god-emperor himself (symbolized by the hundred wives carrying his palanquin - just think - why should queens carry their husband? It's a menial job, not one for queens - hehe, imagine Cersei being ordered to carry a litter and carry Robert in particular - my goodness! )

 So their abuse goes a long way back in time, long before some of them become 'black pearls' who fight back. 

I think the 'fallen star' suggests the demise of these white pearls - but they don't fall from grace, instead, like Ashara, they commit suicide to escape their plight. Ashara isn't stabbed by the palestone sword. She jumps from it - jumping from it conveys this idea of escaping from bondage rather than endure any more suffering. Dawn is forged in the heart of this fallen star however, its forged in the heart of a dead star, a dead woman. If the original pearls were possessed of the magical ability to weave light, it makes sense to take advantage of this, even if the woman is dead. This is how I think Dawn was forged. In the heart of an already dead woman. No blood flow in the dead, the corpse is 'milkwhite' like CH,  but the sword still harnesses the soul or part of it and is alive with this ghostly light. 

In Lightbringer's case, we're told the sword was forged in NN's living heart. That's the difference. Here we have the blood and the real sacrifice. 

The idea felt right but I didn't find support for it until I remembered the really revolting practice carried out by the first Reek, who enjoyed sexually violating Ramsay's victims shortly after they died. All the elements of symbolism are there, only this time we don't have a 'bloody penis sword'. 

 

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, LmL said:

Yes it does seem like the weirwoods may be vessels or repositories for consciousness... the screaming silent faces crying bloody tears suggest its being done to them against their will, don't you think? I've been pondering this recently...  it seems like they would rather not have faces. The faces express anguish and anger. What do you make of that? Could be a sign they are the host of a parasitic intelligence, even. I prefer to think all the greenseer just go into the oort cloud of universal conciseness, a nice warm neural net to cozy up in. But alas, it might not be that way.

Doesn't everyone agree that weirwoods are repositories for consciousness? I don't doubt it. However, I'm convinced their sad, solemn and even angry faces are related to the Shrouded Lord and to the superstition that anyone who makes him laugh will receive a boon. And I think their humorous side can only be reached by 'Shadenfreude' - a kind of gloating, or laughter that ensues from a certain sense of satisfaction at seeing someone who has done wrong suffer their just punishment. Like that symbolized by the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Weirwoods laugh only twice in the narrative. Once on the shield of the mystery knight and once in the Winterfell godswood, when Theon gives fArya away. In the KotLT story, the laughing tree symbolizes this kind of glee. The Mystery Knight 'punishes' the knights whose squires beat up Howland Reed. The symbolic laughing tree is happy about this. Bran makes the weirwood smile at the sight of Theon who has obviously been extensively punished and violated by Ramsay. Now, I think there's even more to this but that's the main idea. 

My latest essay postulates that the weirwoods pick up light from the red wavelength spectrum with their red leaves. To achieve this unnatural feat, they need a blood sacrifice (or are forced to accept that sacrifice) because trees normally take up all light to photosynthesize. There are also hints that this symbiosis of the trees and CotF was a later development and not a natural feature of the trees. So perhaps at some point, the CotF discovered how to tap into the tree's consciousness. That the FM eventually accepted the old gods was advantageous to the children because it meant all remaining trees would be tended to (especially in view of their limited numbers). So yes, perhaps the trees are victims as well. 

[hiemal]

More thoughts on pearls:

Pearls as accretions born of an interior "irritant" could be seen as a metaphor for childbearing.

Pearls could also be linked with seminal fluid, i.e. the infamous "pearl necklace".

All I have for now beyond a musical interlude that popped into my head while pondering the topic:

"One for the Pearl Moon," The Legendary Pink Dots:

 

 

[hiemal]

Bah

[LmL]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Dany leaves bloody footprints and ash wherever she walks.

Good catch on Yggradisil and Yig, btw.

This was an especially great find because it was kind of the missing link between greenseers and the blood of the dragon. The write up on this is going to be an absolute motherfucker. This is basically the "fiery greenseers / Old Ones" theory. I've talked about it here and there... I really need to write it up.

[LmL]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Perhaps the light material is from the moon and the dark from whatever impacted it? Or even, tinfoil time, the "light" and "dark" sides of a moon that keeps one face locked like our own?

That's delightfully pun-tastic tinfoil there my friend. Why is the Bloodstone Emperor's moon meteor black? It was from the dark side of the moon, duh!  

1 hour ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Interesting thought. I had assumed that ww faces were angry/sad to freak out the First Men as they advanced on CotF territory. Sort of reflecting the feelings of the greenseers under that tree. But it may be something darker. KotLT's sigil is a seemingly happy ww...but that may just be a play on the idea of getting the last laugh, and not to do with real ww's. 

I'm on board with AE as a moon maiden figure. I get there by a different route, but yeah.

My interpretation of Galladon goes back to my theory about the split swords. I think the AE, when she inherited the ancestral sword Dawn, had it split in two. A smaller one, made for a woman's hand, for her, and a larger one for her bro-lover the SK. He called his sword the Just Maid in her honor (during the Galadon and Ser Wyn phases, before being daubed Ice later). In this case the maiden lost her heart to him in the non-fatal sense, simply by falling in love (it's still made from the heart of a fallen star, though, so there's a bit of a play on words).

Though her splitting and giving away half the family sword might have played into things deteriorating with little bro BSE, so maybe it killed her in a more roundabout way. 

AE's half of Dawn, I think, was taken by the BSE, and later had something dark added to it (dragonglass?) + blood magic to become Lightbringer. 

I'm on board with Dawn being made from moon meteorite. I still like LB as half of original Dawn, but maybe "dark" meteorite, OBS or bloodstone or whatever, was added to change the color.  

Brightstone and shell seem like they might refer to a pearl/oyster situation. Which can also link to the moon, of course. 

 

The idea of the white and black sword coming from one original sword isn't that different from the black and white sword coming from one moon. 

Also interesting that both of us are seeing a white sword turned black, either literally or symbolically... I think the black sword was made from a black meteor, not a white sword defiled with blood - but I do think that the black sword represents a corruption of the white sword technology, and so in that way, it's a defiled version of Dawn. The AA myth has the sword white hot and smoking before it stabs NN, and red thereafter. I think this is what happened to the comet - it started as a normal comet, white and blue, but was transformed red when the moon exploded. Remember that I am seeing the splitting of Ice as a depiction of the splitting of the comet, with one half impacting and the other half surviving, but being transformed. The "Widow's Wail" sword represents the moon death, a match for Nissa's cry of anguish and ecstasy (this motif can be either a wail or a cry, it seems, as we've seen it in many scenes). Oathkeeper represents a promise - the return of the comet. This also ties into the PTWP, which is Jon. Jon's mama is not a fire moon symbol, but an ice moon symbol, and so I think Jon represents the icy version of AA reborn, and celestially, he's a match for the red dragon comet (Rhaegar) striking the ice moon (Lyanna), an event which hasn't happened yet. The event that was promised. The oath keeping dragon comet. That's one of the many reasons I think Jon's resurrection - his rebirth - will be tied to the comet hitting the second moon.

[LmL]

53 minutes ago, Evolett said:

That's an interesting take on Dawn. We do have the parallel example of two dark swords, Blackfrye and Dark Sister, so it's possible. 

I have some rather creepy thoughts about the forging of Dawn related to pearls, the term 'fallen star' and Ashara's jump from a tower into the ocean. The pearl study indicates that white pearl women are victims of abuse and the circumstances surrounding the original Fisher Pearl Queens mirror this (that's up in part three). Specifically, I think they were captured / stolen because of their magical abilities and forced to perform even for the first god-emperor himself (symbolized by the hundred wives carrying his palanquin - just think - why should queens carry their husband? It's a menial job, not one for queens - hehe, imagine Cersei being ordered to carry a litter and carry Robert in particular - my goodness! )

 So their abuse goes a long way back in time, long before some of them become 'black pearls' who fight back. 

I think the 'fallen star' suggests the demise of these white pearls - but they don't fall from grace, instead, like Ashara, they commit suicide to escape their plight. Ashara isn't stabbed by the palestone sword. She jumps from it - jumping from it conveys this idea of escaping from bondage rather than endure any more suffering. Dawn is forged in the heart of this fallen star however, its forged in the heart of a dead star, a dead woman. If the original pearls were possessed of the magical ability to weave light, it makes sense to take advantage of this, even if the woman is dead. This is how I think Dawn was forged. In the heart of an already dead woman. No blood flow in the dead, the corpse is 'milkwhite' like CH,  but the sword still harnesses the soul or part of it and is alive with this ghostly light. 

In Lightbringer's case, we're told the sword was forged in NN's living heart. That's the difference. Here we have the blood and the real sacrifice. 

The idea felt right but I didn't find support for it until I remembered the really revolting practice carried out by the first Reek, who enjoyed sexually violating Ramsay's victims shortly after they died. All the elements of symbolism are there, only this time we don't have a 'bloody penis sword'. 

 

Ok, let's try to construct the family tree here. Let's see if this can happen. 

The MMOL and the LON are the sun, expressed as a duality. You can look at the LoN as the night sky or the lack of the sun, or the sun in the underworld where it goes at night - all these ideas are related and have been expressed in world mythology in relation to the "night sun deity" archetype. Their only begotten son descends to earth and returns tot he stars, and is carried on the pearl palanquin by his wives. So he's the first real stumper here. Let's consider.

The pearl is a moon symbol, there is no doubt about that. It really can't be used any other way, it has to be related to the moon and moon ideas like pregnancy and fertility and femininity and whatnot.  So this only begotten son of the sun, who is he? Who rides around on the moon? This has stumped me for a long time. I have a couple ideas:

1.) The rider and the vehicle / animal are actually one in the same. The red comet is Khal Drogo's steed, but also Drogo himself. The stars are a fiery Khalasar - riders AND horses. The first man emerged from the Womb of the World on a horse. I've pointed out how Drogon is Dany's shadow and Ghost Jon's shadow, with the colors being reversed: a pale / silver queen with a white shadow, a black brother with "black blood" who has a white shadow.  But Drogon is a part of Dany, and Ghost a part of Jon. So, I think we have a parallel here with the idea of the MMOL and LoN showing us a dark / light solar duality. The LoN is the shadow self of the sun. Stannis is an AA figure, he has a black shadow. Even his bright sword is represented as a "shadowsword."  I've mentioned that a core principle of "alchemy" is the idea that the sun has a shadow self, just as people do, and they depicted the bright sun as a lion and the shadow sun as a dragon. 

So getting back to the God Emperor, the only son of the sun... could he be the moon? When we speak of someone riding on a pearl - a moon - are we looking at the same deal where the rider and the vehicle are one? His 100 wives would be the stars. 

2.) The son of the sun is the Morningstar.  What little we know about the God Emperor fits the main attributes of a "Morningstar deity": descending from heaven to bring divine things to mankind, and then ascending or resurrecting. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the way Venus acts, switching from Morningstar to Evenstar every 220-something days - I've talked about it enough, and here's a primer if anyone is unfamiliar. Now in ASOIAF, George never actually talks about Venus (although he does use Aphrodite symbolism in a couple of places.. "Starlight and sea foam" for a start). George has basically transferred all of the Morningstar lore onto the comet - he introduces it to us as the Evenstar, being the first to appear before Dany burns Khal Drogo (I know Luwin sees it earlier but the Alchemical Wedding is the real intro to its importance). All of the "light-bringer" "dawn-bringer" "son of the morning" "lucifer" ideas have been applied to the comet and to the sword made from it, Lightbringer, as well as Dawn, which I see as a part of the same group of ideas. So... might the God Emperor be a comet or meteor?

He descended from the stars - that could certainly be a meteor.  Perhaps it was a white meteor, giving rise to the idea of a pearl palanquin. A white meteor could be identified with the moon by ancient people. Ascending back to the stars makes less sense, practically speaking.. perhaps this is more like the universal belief of kings and emperors ascending to the stars, which was really the main point of the pyramids of Egypt, to commemorate the Pharaoh's ascendence to the stars (although this wasn't quite a literal idea, it was far more esoteric... anyway). 

Morningstar deities are often also associated with the sun - frequently the son or champion of the sun. Jesus is a MStar deity, the sun of God (who can be seen as a solar deity). Mithras is kind of the champion of the sun, as AA is the champion of R'hllor. An avatar of the sun on earth - but he's a distinct MStar deity. So to me, this idea makes a lot of sense.

3.) the two moons used to be locked, or they used to be one. Picture our smaller black moon locked in orbit with the white one. I don't think this is possible, astronomically, but who knows what George is thinking. The black moon would be the God Emperor, and the white one his palanquin. 

A related idea is that we didn't have two moons (I hate this idea). The one moon was impacted and gave us the meteors, and the idea of it being a separate, formerly existent moon is just historical telephone. There's way too much symbolism about two moons for me to give this much possibility, but I wanted to throw it out. 

A note on patriarchy: originally, the bright face of the sun is female, and the two halves in balance. Their son shows us some patriarchy though, and all the mythical rulers are male until the AE. Who is then killed. Here, and in many other places such as with the Fisher Queens giving way to the Sarnori and then the Dothraki, we might be seeing George depict the world's transition away from matriarchal cultures to authoritarian patriarchy. It's a thread I've picked up on in a few places. 

As for the dead lady forging... that's a new idea. I'll have to consider that one. 

[Evolett]

@LmL No. 2 is the most likely scenario, I would say. A meteor that survives the atmosphere and lands on earth and is described as a pearl. As I explain in my essay, the point is both the pearl and moon reflect sunlight - they have no light of their own. The moon reflects sunlight, starlight and some earthlight. Like some minerals, the rock may have been phosphorescent, continuing to emit light over time - we have a mention of the ghost grass that glows - that's phosphorescence. It doesn't last for ever either. The glowing meteorites may have been a one-off thing, totally unrelated to the later breaking of the moon itself but the belief in the power of these 'pearl-moon' meteorites would have created a desire to duplicate the effect. 

[Evolett]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

More thoughts on pearls:

Pearls as accretions born of an interior "irritant" could be seen as a metaphor for childbearing.

Pearls could also be linked with seminal fluid, i.e. the infamous "pearl necklace".

All I have for now beyond a musical interlude that popped into my head while pondering the topic:

"One for the Pearl Moon," The Legendary Pink Dots:

 

Good you point out the metaphor for childbearing. I was so focused on fertility and 'baby-pearls', I failed to point out the obvious. The 'pearl necklace' is great. Thanks for the tips! 

[LmL]

18 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Good you point out the metaphor for childbearing. I was so focused on fertility and 'baby-pearls', I failed to point out the obvious. The 'pearl necklace' is great. Thanks for the tips! 

The pearl necklace is great!

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

[LmL]

24 minutes ago, Evolett said:

@LmL No. 2 is the most likely scenario, I would say. A meteor that survives the atmosphere and lands on earth and is described as a pearl. As I explain in my essay, the point is both the pearl and moon reflect sunlight - they have no light of their own. The moon reflects sunlight, starlight and some earthlight. Like some minerals, the rock may have been phosphorescent, continuing to emit light over time - we have a mention of the ghost grass that glows - that's phosphorescence. It doesn't last for ever either. The glowing meteorites may have been a one-off thing, totally unrelated to the later breaking of the moon itself but the belief in the power of these 'pearl-moon' meteorites would have created a desire to duplicate the effect. 

Yes, I agree it's the easiest to follow - and I do believe in Occum's razor, despite the complexity of my essays - and I also thin kit is the most consistent with his symbols. Like I said, the morningstar is frequently the son of the sun, and descending and ascending is pretty much his defining element. If Azor Ahai the Bloodstone Emperor shows us the fucked up version of this personage, stealing from heaven and pulling it down instead of descending from heaven himself, it makes sense that the God Emperor might show us the other side of it... the mornigstar to his evenstar. The Biblical notion of Lucifer as a fallen angel and Jesus the son of god are both Morningstar figures, yet one the king of hell and one of heaven. That's what I am seeing in House Dayne as well, as I mentioned on History of Westeros - the same house gives us the Darkstars and Swords of the Evening that gives us Davos Dayne and Arthur Dayne, valiant swords of the morning. 

The BSE is the great corruptor of the GEotD - their magic, most of all - and so it figures that his story (stealing from heaven, a black meteor, darkness) would be an inversion of the founder of the GEotD. 

I'll go read your essay in a moment, I promise, so we can talk on even ground.

[OIL, BLOOD, Water]

I read the first 3 essays and I have to say I'm not convinced.

The essays involve a lot of repetition, and almost 0 textual evidence.

Just because you keep repeating a theory/claims many times doesn't make it any more true. The author of the bloodstone/lightbringer "theory" (if it can even be called that) uses the same 2 quotes (the one by Doreah and the one when Melisandre looks into her flames) over and over. I think some readers are so desperate for an explanation to Lightbringer's origins that they will accept any theory if they can be talked into it by being overwhelmed with baseless claims.

I actually read the first 3 essays from start to finish and I have to say that each essay could be about 90% shorter if they removed the unfounded claims and kept the book evidence. It's a lot of words, that in the end don't say much at all. 

 

[Evolett]

Just another thing which I was saving for later -  this 'glow', which I assign to moonlight alone appears in the form of a nimbus surrounding:

Quote

 

It was the face that haunted him most; surrounded by a nimbus of fire, hair blazing like straw, the dead flesh melting away and sloughing off its skull to reveal the gleam of bone beneath.

 

She saw a horse, a great grey stallion limned in smoke, its flowing mane a nimbus of blue flame.

 

 The sheep was burning before it began to fall. Before the smoking carcass could strike the bricks, the dragon’s teeth closed round it. A nimbus of flames still flickered about the body.

 

 

Note - the 'nimbus' always appears in the dark.

[Scorpion92]

15 minutes ago, OIL, BLOOD, Water said:

I read the first 3 essays and I have to say I'm not convinced.

The essays involve a lot of repetition, and almost 0 textual evidence.

Just because you keep repeating a theory/claims many times doesn't make it any more true. The author of the bloodstone/lightbringer "theory" (if it can even be called that) uses the same 2 quotes (the one by Doreah and the one when Melisandre looks into her flames) over and over. I think some readers are so desperate for an explanation to Lightbringer's origins that they will accept any theory if they can be talked into it by being overwhelmed with baseless claims.

I actually read the first 3 essays from start to finish and I have to say that each essay could be about 90% shorter if they removed the unfounded claims and kept the book evidence. It's a lot of words, that in the end don't say much at all. 

 

Facts? Examples? Anything that would give some merit to your argument?