Paper book or Ebook? - Part II

[Jo498]

20 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, completely agree with you

I think the main problem is that we have turned around 360º degrees in 5-10 years. Technology is a good tool for teaching, but should not be the main one. We need an equilibrium between both worlds. I've been a personal tutor for students who need help with Sciences or Maths while studying my degree and I've felt as if I came from another planet. It's like just ten years ago we didn't have ipads on class like you, but still, I've learned how to use electronic tools on my own. There's no necessity to use them all the time to learn how to properly use them. And I can tell you it's very complicated to make them concentrate on basic calculus because they rely on the ipad or the laptop all the time. I reckon that they can be useful tools but I've had problems with12 year-old's that can't concentrate on how to plan an essay because they automatically use the laptop to write it.  It's like, they can not even highlight important  things on a text because they are just not taught how to do that  because they don't have ANY paper text book. When I was an elementary student I had a lot of text books but many of my teachers didn't use them, they kind of "created" they own material, based on their knowledge and also the text book, as well, as a guide.

turning by 360° degrees yields identity (except for fermion states) so I guess you mean 180, but I am glad that someone understands what I am trying to convey.

It is probably very difficult to assess how reading skills and others more related to working with books (so to some extent the "humanity-related" skill set rather than the scientific one) will change for kids who grew up "all-electronic". Maybe some things are also beneficial. But one would expect that to organize one's thoughts and to plan an essay (something one needs to be able to do for any higher lvl degree or job) could be made EASIER by working with electronic devices. Or they would be neutral wrt such tasks. It seems that at least potentially they are not, especially if they are used too early in education (of course Postman said similar stuff almost 40 years ago).

[Meera of Tarth]

8 hours ago, Jo498 said:

turning by 360° degrees yields identity (except for fermion states) so I guess you mean 180, but I am glad that someone understands what I am trying to convey.

It is probably very difficult to assess how reading skills and others more related to working with books (so to some extent the "humanity-related" skill set rather than the scientific one) will change for kids who grew up "all-electronic". Maybe some things are also beneficial. But one would expect that to organize one's thoughts and to plan an essay (something one needs to be able to do for any higher lvl degree or job) could be made EASIER by working with electronic devices. Or they would be neutral wrt such tasks. It seems that at least potentially they are not, especially if they are used too early in education (of course Postman said similar stuff almost 40 years ago).

Oh my god, of course! 360 degrees in a circumference it's the equivalent to zero...

Yes, in fact what really happened to me is that the kid had to write an essay about different topics related to geography and climatology. He had info from different electronic sources but had not read them prior to the writing task. He instantly opened Power Point fron his school laptop to begin writing, and copy+pasted the first paragraph of one of those documents. I suggested him to begin reading and organising his ideas in a blank piece of paper and he looked at me as if I came from another planet.

I reckon that there are apps to organise your ideas but sometimes it is easier with less advanced tools. or combine both of them.

I for one prefer paper to screen, especially for reading, I love touching the paper, the smell of a new book and the warm light of a cosy room.... but it would be hypocritical to say that I never use the latter because I am using it right now, for instance.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Both? We have just bought another bookshelf, which makes four. But, I mostly read Kindle. Whether that be on my Kindle (we have 5 in the house), or my phone (which I prefer the most). I've said this before in the old thread, but I only buy physical if its a book I like a lot and want to add to my collection and have on hand to let others read. They're all hardbacks because i want them to last. I can see it boiling down to personal preference, and that'll vary wildly. I too feel that e-books should be cheaper, new releases that is. Surprisingly a lot of older books are very cheap and you can wait on deals to come along. 

[AndrewJ]

Yes - cost to supply is unquestionably higher for paper books. But what Gertrude was alluding to is that's only one part of what determines the price of a product. The other side is the demand - or the value the purchaser places on the product.

Look at it this way... Say that if a book was only available in paper, you'd be willing to pay $10 for it. Now, you say you prefer eBooks to paper - they're more convenient as you can have it immediately without having to drive to the store and can carry your books around far more easily. So you place more value on an eBook - it's worth more to you. So... shouldn't you be willing to pay $11 for it? Or $12.

Simple economics - supply and demand. They aren't pricing it at cost plus $X profit. They are pricing it at the price they think you'd be willing to pay for it.

(Yes - lack of resale or ability to lend it is a factor too. I guess it comes gown to which you value more - or, more importantly, which the publisher thinks you value more).

And yeah - I wish eBooks were cheaper too.

[wolverine]

On 2/5/2016 at 8:43 PM, Gertrude said:

On 2/5/2016 at 8:43 PM, Gertrude said:

I'm not sure I understand this comment. I'm reading it as 'Even if teachers are using physical text books, they can still use their own personal devices to be creative.' Isn't that a problem if teachers are forced to use their own resources for teaching on a regular basis? Yes, I know it happens all the time everywhere, but it doesn't mean it's right.

I guess I don't know if you actually think e-readers/tablets are good for teaching or not. Is it just the environment? She teaches elementary music at two schools, one of which is a poor school. Her girls are in elementary and middle school. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure the elementary has the ipads, but the middle schools do. I asked her about distractions on the ipad like games, etc, and she said it's no worse than phones are. (and just to defend my cousin, she is not a lazy teacher nor does she lack creativity.)

eta: I know this is kind of getting away from the topic, but I think it's an interesting aspect of how accessible e-readers now are and why schools might be choosing this path.

 

 

Responding to your first paragraph:  I meant that teachers can have students use their own personal devices depending on what they are trying to accomplish (not the teachers devices).  I think in the right situation it is a viable alternative if the school does not provide something for classroom use.  Also, my main point, was that having a physical textbook does not mean a teacher can't also supplement other ways.  A common mistake made by teachers is assuming their textbook is their curriculum when it is just a part of their curriculum.  Obviously schools don't have unending budgets and choices might involve buying an e-book vs. hard copy etc.

In our school, the school wide policy is to not allow phones out at all during class unless they are being used for educational purposes and the teacher has planned to use them.  We have chrome books (for 7-12) and Ipads (k-6) available for all classrooms if a teacher wants to use them.  I think they can be really dangerous and counterproductive in the wrong hands and a phenomenal supplement in the right hands.  The problem is, most teachers are not really trained how to use them effectively and there probably is not enough data on how to use them effectively yet.  I have talked to students in other schools where every student is issued an ipad and the teachers are not using them effectively at all.  If this is the case, it is a huge waste of money.

I feel the convenience of e-reading has powerful educational implications.  Lots of our high school students are very active in school organizations and being able to do their reading, watch videos, correspond with teachers, virtually anywhere (bus rides home for example) is awesome.

[TheRevanchist]

I read novels almost exclusively in my Kindle. I find the experience as enjoyable, I don't need to think about where would I leave all those books, I don't need to go to library to buy them, and they cost slightly cheaper (for most part).

On the other side, most of the scientific stuff I read on paper. I even print research papers, and I buy books (I am in Computer Science/Mathematics so formulas don't look nice on computer), but for novels (where I don't need to be that much concentrated), I find Kindle better than paper books.

Btw, I prefer Steam to buying games in CD/DVD.

[Gertrude]

18 hours ago, wolverine said:

I think they can be really dangerous and counterproductive in the wrong hands and a phenomenal supplement in the right hands.  The problem is, most teachers are not really trained how to use them effectively and there probably is not enough data on how to use them effectively yet.  I have talked to students in other schools where every student is issued an ipad and the teachers are not using them effectively at all.  If this is the case, it is a huge waste of money.

This makes perfect sense and I agree with you. I recall having a conversation with a teacher of mine years afterwards and one of her biggest issues was with teachers who didn't continue keeping up their own education. I can imagine that tendency could be exacerbated with the introduction of technology, especially at the rate at which it evolves.

[HexMachina]

5 hours ago, Gertrude said:

This makes perfect sense and I agree with you. I recall having a conversation with a teacher of mine years afterwards and one of her biggest issues was with teachers who didn't continue keeping up their own education. I can imagine that tendency could be exacerbated with the introduction of technology, especially at the rate at which it evolves.

In my primary school one of the teachers in particular was always being sent away on teacher training courses precisely to keep up with new technology in the classroom. See, we transitioned from a separate junior and infant school in two very old fashioned buildings to a primary school (nursery+infants+juniors) in a large new building, which got fitted out with the "mod cons" (at the time, an ICT suite and Smart Boards in some classrooms. 

Anyway, the teacher who was sent on these courses was actually very good, and learned a lot of new techniques and so on that made her lessons much more interesting to a young mind.

[First of My Name]

Paper paper paper paper paper paper paper paper.

[Rorshach]

Re: scholarly books, I guess that's mostly a problem within some subjects. In history, the only problem I encounter is that maps are harder to read on a kindle. Everything else is easlily available.

I bought a Kindle about a year ago, and I've been using it mostly since then. I like it.

[Gertrude]

Agreed on visuals via e-readers. I am sure some areas are better served by paper books. I wonder how this will evolve going forward. If anyone uses e-textbooks, I would be interested in how the visuals are dealt with. Not just maps, but I recall a lot of diagrams and charts in my science books.

This is the main reason I think e-books and paper books will co-exist peacefully for a long time. While I love my Nook, I use it instead of paperbacks I would otherwise buy. I still haunt the used book stores and buy coffee-table type books, or things I know I want to possess as a luxury. I have Poe's works on my e-reader, but I also have a leather bound set I adore reading. It sets the mood so much better than an electronic device. Some thing I just want to read, some things I want to experience.

[Switchback the Second]

As a big fantasy reader, the one thing that disappointed with the kindle is the quality of maps.  But it's so hit or miss.  The maps in the Warlord Chronicles omnibus for instance are perfect and look as good as anything you'd find in a paperback.  Many of the Malazan maps are the same.  But then the majority of fantasy maps look like shit on a kindle.  I wish they would figure out a format or whatever to get those as readable across the board as the best of them are.  Though for the ones that suck you can often find them online via your phone to supplement the kindle.  

[Ormond]

There actually is research now showing that people remember things like sustained arguments and plots better when they read works on paper than when the read them on screens. Screens seem to work fine for discreet single facts, but just aren't as good for remembering more complex material. So it does not surprise me at all that students would have a hard time knowing how to organize essays if they've only learned to read and write on electronic devices -- if this isn't as good for reading sustained organized arguments, it's probably not as good for creating them, either. 

[wolverine]

On 2/16/2016 at 0:25 AM, Ormond said:

There actually is research now showing that people remember things like sustained arguments and plots better when they read works on paper than when the read them on screens. Screens seem to work fine for discreet single facts, but just aren't as good for remembering more complex material. So it does not surprise me at all that students would have a hard time knowing how to organize essays if they've only learned to read and write on electronic devices -- if this isn't as good for reading sustained organized arguments, it's probably not as good for creating them, either. 

Did they have any reason for the better recall?

[Jo498]

Very interesting. I wonder what the possible causes in perception or committing information to memory for such differences could be. But we certainly know that such things ARE subtle so this seems another reason not to jump on the latest bandwagon of stuff the industry wants to sell.

This is purely anecdotal but in my experience something that really helps to memorize stuff better is the age-old way of writing it down yourself (preferably in longhand) instead of just reading it. From a certain age it felt stupid in school to copy stuff a teacher had written on the blackboard but by the additional process of writing it down yourself seems to make it easier to remember it. A fairly clear case is foreign language vocab. I was usually not forced to do this in school, so I did it only with the teachers who demanded it. But the best way is to write down the word, the translation and possibly a sentence as an example (or connections with other words), not only go repeatedly through the printed list with your hand covering the translation side (that's what I did most of the time when memorizing vocab).

[James Arryn]

On February 7, 2016 at 4:26 AM, Jo498 said:

For the first >2 years I had my kindle (bought it almost exactly 3 years ago) I only got free books, mostly classics from the 19th or early 20th century. These still form the bulk of my kindle library.

With few exception, e-books seemed way too expensive, or more precisely, the difference between printed book and e-book is too small. I can re-sell, trade, lend etc. printed books and I cannot (easily) do this with e-books.

When I got hooked on Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe stories last summer, I started buying some of them as e-books. Still, they often feel too expensive (about EUR 6 vs. 8 for the pbck and a used pbck can be sometimes bought for about 4) for shortish entertainment books published often 60-70 years ago by an author who lived 1886-1975. (If I was making the rules, they would be PD by now.)

But in Germany I cannot easily grab English language editions of them at a library or used bookstore, so I have to order from abroad and this takes time, so I bought about 10 as Ebooks but am still happy about the ones I could find cheaply as pbcks.

I also bought one semi-scholarly book which was much cheaper (by factor of 5 or so) and far more easily available as e-book.

Stout books can usually be found in 2/3 in one e-books.

[Rorshach]

On 18.2.2016 at 9:10 AM, Jo498 said:

Very interesting. I wonder what the possible causes in perception or committing information to memory for such differences could be. But we certainly know that such things ARE subtle so this seems another reason not to jump on the latest bandwagon of stuff the industry wants to sell.

This is purely anecdotal but in my experience something that really helps to memorize stuff better is the age-old way of writing it down yourself (preferably in longhand) instead of just reading it. From a certain age it felt stupid in school to copy stuff a teacher had written on the blackboard but by the additional process of writing it down yourself seems to make it easier to remember it. A fairly clear case is foreign language vocab. I was usually not forced to do this in school, so I did it only with the teachers who demanded it. But the best way is to write down the word, the translation and possibly a sentence as an example (or connections with other words), not only go repeatedly through the printed list with your hand covering the translation side (that's what I did most of the time when memorizing vocab).

I have been told that research shows that you do remember better if you write stuff down by hand. Further, I've been told that writing the same stuff on a computer does not lead to better learning. As far as I know, there were no reasons given for the discrepancy, just speculation as to where further research should go.

I found this information interesting enough to remember, but not interesting enough to read the research for myself, so this post should be read with a sceptic mind.

[starkwolves]

I read ebooks on my tab but when i love the story..... I buy books hahaha

[Spockydog]

B&N nukes the NOOK with a 15 March deadline for customers to save content

Quote

Meanwhile in the UK, e-books will no longer be supported by B&N. Instead, customers need to open an account with supermarket chain Sainsbury’s. In a less than encouraging proviso, B&N adds that if a book can’t be transferred to the Sainsbury’s platform, a Sainsbury’s Entertainment voucher will be issued as compensation.

Nearly got a Nook a while back. Glad I stuck with Amazon now.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

I'm confused.  The books you buy aren't stored in your eReader?  If the company that makes them folds you can lose the books you've bought?