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Tennis Volume 6


Calibandar

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26 minutes ago, baxus said:

Winning three GSs is an impressive feat, no matter who achieves it. Hell, winning one is impressive.

It's just that winning 12 or 16 or 20 is significantly more impressive, wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely - especially in an era with three of the greatest players to ever play the sport, Federer, Nadal and Djokovic.

You can't help but feel that Murray, having lost six GS finals, was in a great position to have added more to his total than three (so far). Wawrinka, having won three GS finals out of four, is more efficient, so it's hard to say he could have won significantly more than three GSs.

Of course, you could say that the 'big three' could have won even more GS if they had won some of the finals they all lost. But they still won 12, 16 or 20, which still puts them in the top five of all time.

 

I think the four players probably come up in the same conversation so often that it's been easier for people in the media to refer to them as the 'big four', despite the gap between the 'bigger three' and Murray, because we all automatically know who they mean. Same for the mention of 'big three' - we all know that if someone uses that term, they are talking about Feder, Nadal and Djokovic.

I really don't think it is as much people trying to put Murray at the same level as Feder, Nadal and Djokovic as it is people finding a shorter way to refer to those four players in conversation without having to name them all.

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1 hour ago, baxus said:

You say that my premise that Murray is worse than "Big 3" is not based in actual performance and then compare him to Wawrinka to prove your point? Do you see the fallacy in that one?

 

I see you twisting and turning there Baxus, now you are just making stuff up. I did not say that the facts show that Murray is as good as Nadal Federer or Djokovic, in fact I explicitly called him the weakest of the Big Four. 

I did however specifically address the point as to why Murray's results show that he deserved to be named in the Big Four when I said, just this afternoon:

Quote

"So Murray was in 11 Grand Slam finals, Stan the Man in 4.

A huge difference, obviously. Huge enough to show in and of itself that reaching 11 Grand Slam Finals in a period when Nadal Djokovic and Federer were all active show you're part of that group. The next guy from the entire field only reached 4 finals.

We can then consider that Murray has played in 21 ATP Masters Tournament, and has won 14 times.

Stan has played in 4.... What could explain such an enormous difference? Could it be that there is actually a valid reason that this is called a Big Four, even though Murray is the "weakest" of that Big Four?"

According to Stan the Man, who many would consider the fifth best player, Murray is in the Big Four and he is far removed from that. The results agree with this. That Murray is the "weakest "of the Big 4 doesn't mean he should not be named among his peers.

Summing up, going into any major tournament the last 10 years, if they participated there were 4 major favorites for that tournament. 

That does not mean each of those 4 is exactly as good as the other, we all know Federer is the GOAT. But the gap with the rest of the field has been so big that outside of the Big Four, no one was considered a legit contender.

Murray:

Career finals
Discipline Type Won Lost Total WR 1
Singles Grand Slam tournaments 3 8 11  
Year-End Championships 1 0 1  
ATP Masters 1000 2 14 7 21  
Olympic Games 2 0 2  

 

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1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

According to Stan the Man, who many would consider the fifth best player, Murray is in the Big Four and he is far removed from that. The results agree with this. That Murray is the "weakest "of the Big 4 doesn't mean he should not be named among his peers.

You are really talking past each other.

His point is, Murray being the fourth best player, is far removed from the Big Three. Stan doesn't come into consideration at all.

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