How Ice Became Dawn (Updated)

[Voice of the First Men]

4 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Yeah, I just feel it is quite confusing and unnecessary to make two ICE swords there.

We never had two swords sharing the same name, did not we?

Maybe this is just some random mystery GRRM planted.

like the crown of Aegon I.

 

 

3 hours ago, LmL said:

Yes, the other example is Lady Forlorn, which is now Valyrian steel but in the past was a more conventional steel. 

My point is that we are only told that:

1. Ice came from Valyria, 400 years ago
2. The Valyrian steel Ice is not the original Ice

Just for the record. We can speculate and fill in that gap any way we want, but those are the bits of info we are given. I kind of think that if the original Ice was only lost 400 years ago, that would have been mentioned. What it does show is that Martin has always had the idea in mind of some long lost sword named Ice, and I think the big "white as milkglass" sword is a decent candidate, as @Voice clearly does.

At purple-eyes and LmL,

Far be it from me to correct two fellow readers on sword names but you are both forgetting the glaring example.

Ned's Ice

Widow's Wail

Oathkeeper

One (transformed) sword, with three names.

 

 

4 hours ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

I think LmL meant that, if Dawn is Ice, it's already Jon's heritage by way of being half Stark. So Jon doesn't also need to be a Dayne.

 

Ah, well, that isn't what the text tells us though, is it? In my copy, only a son of Starfall may wield Dawn...

While the Starks might have once laid claim to the blade, they dishonored it, hence my little theory, their tired lamentation about winter coming, and their peculiar amount of mutual respect and deference with House Dayne.

 

 

[Voice of the First Men]

3 hours ago, LmL said:

Yep, that's it exactly. Plus, Dany and Jon are both approximately 25% Dayne because of Targaryen incest for three generations before them and Egg's Dayne mother, Dyanna Dayne. 

Well, in that regard, House Dayne is ten thousand years old. Most likely everyone in Dorne and most of the 7k has a drop of their blood.

But that does not make them sons of Starfall.

3 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

I doubt.

I agree it is tempting since dawn is indeed pale like "ice". 

But I feel it hard to believe why house stark would give their family sword to house dayne and we know house dayne stays in the far south for 10000 years. They are very very far from house stark. 

More importantly, the Sword of the Morning still hangs in the South - away from the Others, the Wall, and the King of the Long Night.

3 hours ago, LmL said:

Well, if it was the sword of the terrible King of Winter, then maybe they took it from him and keep it far away from his descendants, something like that. Sometimes when a treaty is made between warring factions, important swords are exchanged.

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

You jon fans are way too greedy. 

So he had longclaw, he will have blackfyre, and now he will have dawn as well? 

Does he have so many hands to wield them? 

Or this is like his jewelry, he used one based on his outfit or mood for that day? 

Targaryens have dragons. A wolf has claws. A lion has teeth. A girl has a needle.

A Sword of the Morning has Dawn.

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

To be serious, 

I do agree dawn is special and it does fit the name of ice. 

I mean this is song of ice and fire. Everything is symmetrical here. 

Jon snow and dany. Dragon and others. Dragonbinder and horn of winters. 

So if there is a sword called blackfyre, maybe there should be a sword like a white ice. 

And this one had to be dawn. 

I agree it maybe a sword from the others, the night's king, maybe. 

Perhaps darkstar will become the night king! 

Well, to do that he'd have to usurp the one and only Night's King, who, I remind you, was never killed.

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Just an observation. Much is made of the fact that the Daynes came to Westeros to settle and forged Dawn from the heart of a fallen star.  Is it ever determined that the fallen star is meant to truly be a celestial star fallen to earth? Might it also be a representation of a fallen hero? Maybe the Night's King?

Yup.

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Who knows? So far it looks like it is from a real shooting star. 

But There is a chance that it came from night's king, a falling stark. 

 

Symeon Star Eyes. Were those actual meteorites he put in his eye sockets to see? I don't think so.

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It certainly does.  But I also think Martin is quite talented at making us look the other way, which makes me wonder...

He is. And, if we review the tale, it is typical Martin-ambiguity. There is no mention of a meteorite, nor metal.

Bran III ACOK:

 

Quote

 

"Was there one who was best of all?"

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.

 

 

I'm thinking this "Fallen Star" was actually her:

A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

That to me sounds like the kind of intimate relationship that might give a man a new sword. (See Stannis)

And again, Ned, the only POV to ever carry Dawn describes no metal when teaching Bran about Dawn and Dayne.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

 

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

But Longclaw has never felt right in Jon's hands.  I tend to believe that Longclaw will eventually be returned to the Mormonts, specifically Jorah.

I hadn't heard that one.  I don't think that this is anything that @Voice of the First Men would agree with from the OP.

It has been foreshadowed. @Sly Wren has writen an entire series of posts on this.  When Jon emerged from the cave with Ygritte, he sees the sword of the morning constellation still hanging in the south. This comes to him after spending time searching for his identity.

 

[Nozlym]

yo voice can u give me a really quick run down on how this ice/original ice/dawn connection sprouted from? u an i r as it seems the only ones online right now so i need somone to talk to and to lazy to read through the previous posts.

[Voice of the First Men]

23 minutes ago, Nozlym said:

yo voice can u give me a really quick run down on how this ice/original ice/dawn connection sprouted from? u an i r as it seems the only ones online right now so i need somone to talk to and to lazy to read through the previous posts.

LOL, might be easier to entertain you if you respond to something from the OP or something....

But, one only needs to look at the longswords of the Others... and Arthur Dayne's long-arsed sword to see that they are the same variety.

That, and the fact that Ice is not the Original Ice, give me reason to connect the two... Ned's sword did not look like Ice, and was relatively new. Arthur Dayne's sword looks like the icy swords of the Others, and dates to the Age of Heroes.

There is also only two mentions of a sword being "sharper than any razor," in all the books. They are the Other's sword in the AGOT Prologue, and Ned's Ice. Ned is beheaded by a sharper than any razor sword named Ice. The last man to be beheaded by that blade prior to Ned, was Gared - who escaped the Others in the Prologue.

 

[Neds Secret]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

You jon fans are way too greedy. 

So he had longclaw, he will have blackfyre, and now he will have dawn as well? 

Does he have so many hands to wield them? 

Or this is like his jewelry, he used one based on his outfit or mood for that day? 

 

To be serious, 

I do agree dawn is special and it does fit the name of ice. 

I mean this is song of ice and fire. Everything is symmetrical here. 

Jon snow and dany. Dragon and others. Dragonbinder and horn of winters. 

So if there is a sword called blackfyre, maybe there should be a sword like a white ice. 

And this one had to be dawn. 

I agree it maybe a sword from the others, the night's king, maybe. 

Perhaps darkstar will become the night king! 

 

I have this horrible premonition of Cersei ending up as the Nights Kings Queen!

[Sly Wren]

18 hours ago, Evolett said:

Actually, I don't think very many of the characters know much of the background. There are a very few who have some partial background knowledge and these seem to be concentrated within the schorlarly community - charcters like Marvin or Aemon. I think George has intentionally written the story that way so that everything goes with the flow. At the same time, we as readers recognize there's more to it than meets the eye. So, no, I don't think Ned needs to know anything at all. He knows a few things, about iron swords locking in the spirits of the kings in the crypt for instance. There are lots of open hints suggesting information has been lost to history. The Royces and their words - We Remember, the fact that the NW has 'forgotten' their purpose and so on. We're also introduced to a more enlightend medeival world - the highborn enjoy a certain level of education, there's still superstition of course but many dismiss those tales - snarks and grumpkins... Phrases like 'the Others take you' are used with as much ease as 'go to hell', nowadays (Incidentally, that's why Waymar Royce's moleskin gloves are important - they remember - he was sent there for a purpose - most likely for the same reason Jon is there, only he didn't have the right bloodline).

Agreed--though I'd also argue that Waymar Royce didn't have the right sword. Before the Other calls the other Others (Oy!), the first Other watches how the light plays on Royce's sword. In a scene where we're told the Others' swords have a faint glow to them. And the moonlight plays on their swords a certain way. Only after examining the sword does the Other call his friends for a game of Kill the Watchman. 

So--I think the need for the need for a certain sword has NOT been forgotten by the Others. But has likely been forgotten by the Starks.

18 hours ago, Evolett said:

Many see the Bard's tale as confirmation of the Lyanna/Rhaegar scenario but I'm inclined to focus more on the fact that they hide in the crypts and what that implies. Bael essentially turns the Stark daughter into a Night's Queen, living amongst corpses for a year. And Lyanna ends up there as well. But anyway. 

Especially since the whole Bael Tale ends in war, kinslaying, and suicide. The Stark in Winterfell put down the Stark Night's King at the Wall--still kinslaying. Is all this tied to why the Starks must stay in Winterfell? 

18 hours ago, Evolett said:

The sword - I like @Julia H.'s take on the sword, sounds plausible.

I agree that @Julia H.'s take is plausible. But, as @Voice has stated on this thread, not everyone with Daynish blood is a son of Starfall: 

 

Quote

Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord.

Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne

. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.

For this reason, the Swords of the Morning are all famous throughout the Seven Kingdoms. There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and its title. Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect.

 

Reminds me of Robb's insistence that the Stark cousins in the Vale weren't remotely as Starkish as Jon. A "Dayne relative" really might not be a Son of Starfall. 

18 hours ago, Evolett said:

I'm more into the magic behind the scenes and have posted several essays dealing with the subject on my blog. However,  you might find support for your ideas in some of Jon's chapters - the training scenes at Castle Black crossed my mind immediately after reading that part of your post. The theme of disarming for instance.. might find something there.   

Excellent! Thanks for the link!

ETA: Forgot to get this part!

This brings me to Ned's killing Lady - it may appear to us that he messed up, he thinks so himself. This is an example of the 'flow' of the story I mention above. He didn't mess up - actually, I suspect killing lady was necessary. I think she was the sacrifice that woke Bran.

I think it was necessary as well--though it also seems to have made Sansa both dead and undead (you are your wolf and your wolf is you). And put her in a position to get home, unlike the other dead wolf-maid. Lyanna dies at the end of her journey. Sansa dies at the start.

As a replacement, Sansa is given 'dogs' to protect her (ironically, just as King Robert suggests to Ned - get her a dog). And the author does this quite cleverly - he shows that dogs like her (the dog at LF's abode), Sandor Clegane protects her, saves her from the fate Lolly's suffered and so on. My guess is she'll have a 'dog' at the Gates of the Moon as well. My tip is Shadrich, the Mad Mouse. Sansa didn't really need Lady but Bran did and it's all cleverly woven into the narrative.

True--though I really think Sandor is an echo of Arthur--a KG apart and beyond the others. 

But I can't sway Sansa didn't "need" Lady. The memory of Lady ties her to Winterfell. A tie she seeks. And she dreams of Lady before seeing the warring castles in the sky. . . Seems like Lady's role is still playing out for Sansa. . . 

[Sly Wren]

15 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

I don't think so. But, just as Longclaw feels wrong in Jon's hands, I'm thinking Dawn felt wrong to Ned. Ned was not the son of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Dayne) meant to wield Dawn. Ned preferred the newer steel to the arcane milkglass. Conjecture all, of course. But not without some precedent.

Conjecture, yes. But i'm wondering if there's a reason Ice was only used ceremoniously. Ned could have practiced with it enough to figure out how to fight with Ice. But he didn't.

That said--Ice represents what's right to Jon--a sword that would give him a name. Ned let his boys handle Ice. Sansa sees Ice as tied to her farther's identity. As a symbol, it's not "wrong" in the way Longclaw is for Jon.

15 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

If Jon were with Ned at the Trident, I think Ned would have taken a different course. And remember, Ned did protect Lady, and Nymeria to the bitter end. It was Cersei that forced his hand. In Ned's place, I think even that frozen direwolf in the snow would have killed Lady before allowing the mute giant in armor made of stone to touch her pup.

True--so, Ned meeds a son of Starfall to remind him of what it means to be a Stark?

15 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

We have to ask ourselves, why on earthos would Ned attribute Jon's bastardy to lust instead of prophecy (AGOT Eddard IX), say that Arthur Dayne was the finest knight he ever knew (ACOK Bran III), and yet kill him with Howland Reed's help - in spite of losing the duel to Dawn in the hands of the Sword of the Morning. I'm thinking the only way Ned could repay the debt was to raise Arthur's mournful son / morning sun.

Possible--though I think it may also have been to protect Jon and the Daynes if Jon was born at Starfall. A specific repayment of the debt to all.

15 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

But yes, why Ashara... It might be that she was the Lady of the house at that point. Edric is a very young Lord, and I believe Ashara is older than Allyria. It would be like Sansa becoming Lady Protector of Winterfell until Bran or Rickon came of age, methinks.

Possible. Though, if so, was Ned Dayne born by the time Ashara took her fatal step out the window?

15 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

And a House whose "better sword" is not its heir, and might be a bastard herself.

YUP!

15 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

I'd add that Evenstar is also an echo of Night's King, but then, almost everything in these books is, for me. LOL

True--though he values his daughter properly--seems like an echo of Ned as well.

15 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

Indeed. The same is true of Dawn. It is not bestowed from Lord to heir, but to the most worthy wielder of that house. And, interestingly, Arthur is as synonymous with honor as Ned, and the sword itself symbolizes that honor in the story AS A CONNECTION BETWEEN THE TWO MOST ANCIENT HOUSES IN WESTEROS when Ned returns Dawn to Starfall.

YUP! And then leaves in charge of Jon. . . another living tie between the Houses. Which Edric reminds Arya (Lyanna echo) of--with a big glass of milk.

15 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

So, Night's King gave her his sword. In Nissa-Nissa-like fashion, she transformed it. Transformed by his dishonor - both man and sword=seed+soul.

So--the sword was always his, and then got turned?

[Voice of the First Men]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Conjecture, yes. But i'm wondering if there's a reason Ice was only used ceremoniously. Ned could have practiced with it enough to figure out how to fight with Ice. But he didn't.

Indeed. He only used it when he was able to keep the old ways, and hear a man's final words.... not unlike the Other in the Prologue, I might add.

Quote

That said--Ice represents what's right to Jon--a sword that would give him a name. Ned let his boys handle Ice. Sansa sees Ice as tied to her farther's identity. As a symbol, it's not "wrong" in the way Longclaw is for Jon.

His "father's" sword. A sword that bears a name from the Age of Heroes.

Quote

True--so, Ned meeds a son of Starfall to remind him of what it means to be a Stark?

Well, Jon is far more than that. Jon as Stark+Dayne represents a union of the eldest bloods in Westeros. While Starkhood is itself old, and Dayne is as well, the union of the two represents (in my mind) a reunification of the fragmentation undergone by the Night's King. I think this combination also represents a phenotype far less Andahli, and far more like the First Men of old than anyone else in the entire series.

Jon is Ancient Westeros in human form. And, as a weirwood direwolf, he alone can change the face of Ned the Lord to the Ned the Father...who speaks softly...and prays for the pack under the heart tree.

Quote

Possible--though I think it may also have been to protect Jon and the Daynes if Jon was born at Starfall. A specific repayment of the debt to all.

Makes sense.

Quote

Possible. Though, if so, was Ned Dayne born by the time Ashara took her fatal step out the window?

I don't think so. But I think Jon was.

Quote

YUP!

True--though he values his daughter properly--seems like an echo of Ned as well.

Oh definitely. Ned too is an echo of Night's King. LOL

For the Evenstar though, I was mainly referring to his name - A star as darkness falls. Well, that and his Isle, with sapphires for eyes.

Quote

YUP! And then leaves in charge of Jon. . . another living tie between the Houses. Which Edric reminds Arya (Lyanna echo) of--with a big glass of milk.

Indeed he does. Wylla is part of the answer to the mystery of Starfall, but only a part.

Quote

So--the sword was always his, and then got turned?

Yes. According to the Annals of Castle Black, the Others "could not stand against" the Last Hero's blade of dragonsteel. I think he fought them by light of day, and bade them kneel behind the curtain of darkness - militarizing Westeros' antibodies. As he lay with the moon woman, his Self became more and more fractured. (See Stannis) Until eventually, he could only survive in the darkness. I think his sword underwent a reforging during this time as well via a process I call "the cold forge", but that is another conversation.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

20 hours ago, Voice of the First Men said:

 

I'm not familiar with it, but must admit I am quite the Old Nan loyalist. She's the most accurate historian we have thus far for northern events. The maesters have proven quite inept on that front.

Some of Nans tales certainly have some hidden truths about the north that are unrecorded by history, but I like to take her stories for what they are. She can't be entirely accurate about everything she thinks she knows, she's not a greenseer. I do however think a noteworthy aspect is the fact that she supposedly considered all Brandon Starks to be the same person.qq

[Voice]

Some of Nans tales certainly have some hidden truths about the north that are unrecorded by history, but I like to take her stories for what they are. She can't be entirely accurate about everything she thinks she knows, she's not a greenseer. I do however think a noteworthy aspect is the fact that she supposedly considered all Brandon Starks to be the same person.qq

I'd say her tales contain more truth than not in terms of the north, but I agree with your point. And I definitely agree that her blurring of the lines separating various Brandons is noteworthy indeed.

[Julia H.]

 

On 2016. 02. 08. at 8:17 AM, Voice of the First Men said:

 

Ah, well, that isn't what the text tells us though, is it? In my copy, only a son of Starfall may wield Dawn...

While the Starks might have once laid claim to the blade, they dishonored it, hence my little theory, their tired lamentation about winter coming, and their peculiar amount of mutual respect and deference with House Dayne.

 

 

Since I was the one who first brought up the point above: Yes, currently only a Dayne may wield Dawn. However, if we can theorize that the sword was originally a Stark sword, but they lost it because they had dishonored it, then it is just as possible that a Stark may win it back for House Stark by redeeming the family - and that it can happen when a Stark hero puts an end to another Long Night, defeats the Night King or does some other heroic deed to save the realms of men from the Others / the Long Night. If the sword can go from the Stark family to the Dayne family, then why couldn't it go back under the right circumstances? In that case the Sword of the Morning would be a Stark from that point on - the title and the "office" would go back to the redeemed Stark family with the sword.

On 2016. 02. 08. at 3:22 PM, Sly Wren said:

I agree that @Julia H.'s take is plausible. But, as @Voice has stated on this thread, not everyone with Daynish blood is a son of Starfall: 

Sly Wren, According to what I said, it is enough for Jon to be a Stark (as he would win the sword back as a Stark), he doesn't need to be a son of Starfall or have any Dayne blood at all.

[Voice of the First Men]

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Since I was the one who first brought up the point above: Yes, currently only a Dayne may wield Dawn.

No need to be defensive, Julia. It was GRRM who first brought up the point.

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

However, if we can theorize that the sword was originally a Stark sword, but they lost it because they had dishonored it, then it is just as possible that a Stark may win it back for House Stark by redeeming the family - and that it can happen when a Stark hero puts an end to another Long Night, defeats the Night King or does some other heroic deed to save the realms of men from the Others / the Long Night.

Entirely possible.

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

If the sword can go from the Stark family to the Dayne family, then why couldn't it go back under the right circumstances?

I'm not saying it couldn't, I'm just adhering to the guidelines for Dawn and the Sword of the Morning as stated in the books. And, according to the books, Dawn is waiting for a son of Starfall to wield her. Tis true, we can imagine any set of "right circumstances" with no limits but our own imaginations. But...

...speaking of "right circumstances"... Jon's milkbrother and his wetnurse Wylla are from Starfall...

And oh yeah... Ned carried Dawn to Starfall and carried Jon to Winterfell...

And oh yeah... Jon is 17 and there hasn't been a Sword of the Morning for 17 years...

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

In that case the Sword of the Morning would be a Stark from that point on - the title and the "office" would go back to the redeemed Stark family with the sword.

Can you offer a precedent for this idea?

The Starks already have an "office" and "title". They are the "Kings of Winter".

 

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Sly Wren, According to what I said, it is enough for Jon to be a Stark (as he would win the sword back as a Stark), he doesn't need to be a son of Starfall or have any Dayne blood at all.

Someone should tell GRRM, because that's not at all what he's written, nor what he's said about Dawn in SSMs.

 

 

[Julia H.]

2 minutes ago, Voice of the First Men said:

No need to be defensive, Julia. It was GRRM who first brought up the point.

 

Entirely possible.

 

I'm not saying it couldn't, I'm just adhering to the guidelines for Dawn and the Sword of the Morning as stated in the books. And, according to the books, Dawn is waiting for a son of Starfall to wield her. Tis true, we can imagine any set of "right circumstances" with no limits but our own imaginations. But...

...speaking of "right circumstances"... Jon's milkbrother and his wetnurse Wylla are from Starfall...

And oh yeah... Ned carried Dawn to Starfall and carried Jon to Winterfell...

And oh yeah... Jon is 17 and there hasn't been a Sword of the Morning for 17 years...

 

Can you offer a precedent for this idea?

The Starks already have an "office" and "title". They are the "Kings of Winter".

 

Someone should tell GRRM, because that's not at all what he's written, nor what he's said about Dawn in SSMs.

 

 

My point is not based on GRRM, it is based entirely on your theory. GRRM never said that Dawn had once belonged to the Starks, that it had not started out originally as a Dayne sword. I was commenting on your theory about Dawn being the original Ice. If it changed families once, it can change families again. If it was lost to the Starks, it can be recovered again. If a Stark sinned during the Long Night so that the punishment (the loss of an extraordinary sword) affected many generations to come, another Stark may put it right when another Long Night comes. 

If Dawn was not originally a Stark sword (Ice), then we can't expect that it will ever become a Stark sword, because why would it be? If it was a Stark sword, however, then it can be a Stark sword again despite the current rules, which may just be changed by another Long Night. 

Ned gave the sword back to the Daynes. It could mean he wasn't the Stark yet who was worthy of winning it back. It would be poignant if Jon received it eventually.

That's my idea, which seems to come logically from yours (which I really like). 

Even if Jon was born in Starfall, I have difficulty seeing him as a son of Starfall (regardless of the quantity of Dayne blood in his veins) - he is all about the North and Winterfell. He has a hard-earned right to be a Stark. I totally like the idea of Jon becoming the Sword of the Morning, but I see great difficulties if the rule that Dawn may only be wielded by a son of Starfall does not change. To me your theory is the solution to the problem, because if Dawn used to be a Stark sword, then it can become a Stark sword again. All it may take is another Long Night and a Stark hero. 

[LmL]

5 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

My point is not based on GRRM, it is based entirely on your theory. GRRM never said that Dawn had once belonged to the Starks, that it had not started out originally as a Dayne sword. I was commenting on your theory about Dawn being the original Ice. If it changed families once, it can change families again. If it was lost to the Starks, it can be recovered again. If a Stark sinned during the Long Night so that the punishment (the loss of an extraordinary sword) affected many generations to come, another Stark may put it right when another Long Night comes. 

If Dawn was not originally a Stark sword (Ice), then we can't expect that it will ever become a Stark sword, because why would it be? If it was a Stark sword, however, then it can be a Stark sword again despite the current rules, which may just be changed by another Long Night. 

Ned gave the sword back to the Daynes. It could mean he wasn't the Stark yet who was worthy of winning it back. It would be poignant if Jon received it eventually.

That's my idea, which seems to come logically from yours (which I really like). 

Even if Jon was born in Starfall, I have difficulty seeing him as a son of Starfall (regardless of the quantity of Dayne blood in his veins) - he is all about the North and Winterfell. He has a hard-earned right to be a Stark. I totally like the idea of Jon becoming the Sword of the Morning, but I see great difficulties if the rule that Dawn may only be wielded by a son of Starfall does not change. To me your theory is the solution to the problem, because if Dawn used to be a Stark sword, then it can become a Stark sword again. All it may take is another Long Night and a Stark hero. 

Agree once again with @Julia H., seems pretty easy to understand her argument here. 

[Voice]

@Julia H., seems pretty easy to understand her argument here. 

Agreed. Will respond in further detail when I have more time...

[Sly Wren]

On February 8, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Voice of the First Men said:

Indeed. He only used it when he was able to keep the old ways, and hear a man's final words.... not unlike the Other in the Prologue, I might add.

Touche, ser! Though Ned doesn't play "stab the Watchman"--Theon does that by kicking the head. . . 

On February 8, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Voice of the First Men said:

Well, Jon is far more than that. Jon as Stark+Dayne represents a union of the eldest bloods in Westeros. While Starkhood is itself old, and Dayne is as well, the union of the two represents (in my mind) a reunification of the fragmentation undergone by the Night's King. I think this combination also represents a phenotype far less Andahli, and far more like the First Men of old than anyone else in the entire series.

And fits with the echoes/parallels between the north and Dorne. Which is why I'm thinking Jon's a uniting memory for both Starfall and Winterfell--for readers, but also for characters. An unintended union or reunion.

On February 8, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Voice of the First Men said:

Jon is Ancient Westeros in human form. And, as a weirwood direwolf, he alone can change the face of Ned the Lord to the Ned the Father...who speaks softly...and prays for the pack under the heart tree.

So, under your theory, would he be able to "turn" the sword back to its original purpose? Rather like Brienne (who tells us the story of Galladon and Just Maid) is "turning" Oathkeeper back to its original Icy purpose--administering Starky justice?

On February 8, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Voice of the First Men said:

Oh definitely. Ned too is an echo of Night's King. LOL

For the Evenstar though, I was mainly referring to his name - A star as darkness falls. Well, that and his Isle, with sapphires for eyes.

True--the Night's King echo of Beric (fire wight) and Allyria seems like it holds for the south. Better than just the Evenstar. 

Still--that story of a sword that can only be drawn against certain foes. . . that really sounds like a potential echo for what Dawn does. .. 

On February 8, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Voice of the First Men said:

Yes. According to the Annals of Castle Black, the Others "could not stand against" the Last Hero's blade of dragonsteel. I think he fought them by light of day, and bade them kneel behind the curtain of darkness - militarizing Westeros' antibodies.

I'm following you until we hit the bolded--need that explained. . . 

Though I think Jon's nightmare battle dream might be telling us the Last Hero held them off through the Hour of the Wolf with re-bladed Dawn--bringing the dawn, and thus defeat.

On February 8, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Voice of the First Men said:

As he lay with the moon woman, his Self became more and more fractured. (See Stannis) Until eventually, he could only survive in the darkness. I think his sword underwent a reforging during this time as well via a process I call "the cold forge", but that is another conversation.

Given how we have a few men getting seduced by women only to have their weapons turn on them in this story--I can see this. Though I am eager to hear the cold-forge theory if/when you get a chance.

[RobOsevens]

On 07/02/2016 at 7:13 PM, Dorian Martell said:

There are many, many assumptions conflating a number of tales that are 6 to 8 thousand years old. How would his 12 companions be lord commanders if he hasn't built the wall that the watch was set up to guard yet? Also, Ice was a blade from the age of Heroes, Are you saying the Age of heroes was actually After  the long night? If so, how do you figure that?  The split personality thing? Out of curiousity, what led you to come up with that bit of fan fic? 
Now, I have a totally unsubstantiated idea that Winterfell, Dawn and the runic bronze armor of the Royces were the possessions of the last hero, and spread out through his descendents. The Royces words are "We remember."   now we only need  the Dayne words and we have "Winter is Coming, We Remember and something that the author said will give away the story
 

Dorian, Do you have the source where GRRM said this? I can't find it anywhere

[Sly Wren]

On February 9, 2016 at 8:39 AM, Julia H. said:

Sly Wren, According to what I said, it is enough for Jon to be a Stark (as he would win the sword back as a Stark), he doesn't need to be a son of Starfall or have any Dayne blood at all.

Yes, of course. 

But the books (or at least the World Book) insist that one must be a Son of Starfall. 

And, given @Voice's argument, if the Starks mucked up being the Last Hero and the sword had to be taken from them by a protector, might not Jon need both the Stark blood and the worthy protector's blood to wield the sword against the Long Night?

And could I possible have given you an answer that requires more speculation? Oy. . sorry about that.

21 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Even if Jon was born in Starfall, I have difficulty seeing him as a son of Starfall (regardless of the quantity of Dayne blood in his veins) - he is all about the North and Winterfell. He has a hard-earned right to be a Stark. I totally like the idea of Jon becoming the Sword of the Morning, but I see great difficulties if the rule that Dawn may only be wielded by a son of Starfall does not change. To me your theory is the solution to the problem, because if Dawn used to be a Stark sword, then it can become a Stark sword again. All it may take is another Long Night and a Stark hero. 

As usual, I'm loving your logic.

Would only add that while Jon is definitely a son of Winterfell, his life-long desire for identity via father's sword, and winning that identity via valor--that seems more Dayne than Stark. None of the other Starks seem to have that, even though they value Ice a LOT. They focus on Winterfell and their wolves for their identity. Long for their wolves when separated.

Jon also longs for his wolf--and wants the true greatsword which is one via valor. That really seems like Dawn.

Throw in that he's the only Stark who's also a sworn brother and protects the "small folk" (shout out to @superunknown5 for pointing this out to me), and Martin seems to be having Jon echo Arthur--the last Sword of the Morning. 

All of that might be nothing--except that we've been getting it since Game. And so it makes me think Jon's both Stark and Dayne--or that this is at least a reasonably possible outcome: son of Winterfell AND Starfall. Protector and Stark undoing the damage of the Night's King. . . 

[Anath]

While normally, it would be enough for a worthy Stark to reclaim a Stark sword, I see a problem with it because if the OP's theory is true, Ice-Dawn wasn't a sword touched by a betrayal and waiting for the redeemed Stark to reclaim it. It's a sword that's actually used by those Daynes who were worthy. It doesn't look like it's "reserved" for a Stark. It might have been this way, but it's definitely a Dayne sword now. The Stark betrayal was just too great to be overcome so easily. As far as I know, none of the mythical heroes with waiting sword came from a line so stained by betrayal. (BTW, I am not sure that Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, was indeed a dark warrior. I am more inclined to think his moniker reflected the fact that he was the last Dayne king but I might be mistaken. He might have been called that while still king. I don't have the world book with me right now.) And while Jon starts definitely like a son of Winterfell and identifies himself so, in the very start of his journey he's disappointed with Ned, realizing that Ned had sent him to the Wall without disabusing him of his idealistic notions and in fact, closing him any way back. Without Ned in the North, which bannerman would be eager to take his bastard son in? He might be attached to his former home and his family but as his new life changes him, his insistence that he wouldn't forget his father comes across as having some desperate wish to not let things change because he can feel them changing. Kill the boy and let the man be born - well, the boy is literally killed. Perhaps the son of Winterfell (in his heart) will "die" in a way and what will rise will be neither a son of Winterfell nor Starfall (if he is such by blood) and at the same time, both? I doubt we'll see an unJon but I don't think we'll see an unchanged Jon either.

[Julia H.]

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes, of course. 

But the books (or at least the World Book) insist that one must be a Son of Starfall. 

But that is what the characters in-universe know - because that is what has been the custom for thousands of years. Yandel doesn't seem to be expecting another Long Night to come so soon, and there seems to be a general belief in Westeros that the Others do not exist. Yandel (just like probably the general public) doesn't seem to know anything of the origin of Dawn (as per Voice's theory). Why would he ever think of the possibility that the sword might change families when he has never heard that it has already done so?

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And, given @Voice's argument, if the Starks mucked up being the Last Hero and the sword had to be taken from them by a protector, might not Jon need both the Stark blood and the worthy protector's blood to wield the sword against the Long Night?

To be honest I don't think it's necessary (but that's a matter of opinion). If the Starks need redemption, they can only be redeemed by a Stark. If the next heroic deed is done by another Dayne and the hero gets acknowledged as a Dayne hero, then House Stark is not redeemed. Then the next Sword of the Morning will be another Dayne, whose Stark blood (if any) is irrelevant in this respect.  

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

 

Would only add that while Jon is definitely a son of Winterfell, his life-long desire for identity via father's sword, and winning that identity via valor--that seems more Dayne than Stark. None of the other Starks seem to have that, even though they value Ice a LOT. They focus on Winterfell and their wolves for their identity. Long for their wolves when separated.

Jon also longs for his wolf--and wants the true greatsword which is one via valor. That really seems like Dawn.

Throw in that he's the only Stark who's also a sworn brother and protects the "small folk" (shout out to @superunknown5 for pointing this out to me), and Martin seems to be having Jon echo Arthur--the last Sword of the Morning. 

All of that might be nothing--except that we've been getting it since Game. And so it makes me think Jon's both Stark and Dayne--or that this is at least a reasonably possible outcome: son of Winterfell AND Starfall. Protector and Stark undoing the damage of the Night's King. . . 

Perhaps. But I still maintain that this theory offers a (potential) way for a Stark to wield Dawn without being a son of Starfall, to win the sword back in a way that mirrors the way it was lost. 

If Dawn is really the original Ice, it would be really interesting if it had relevance to the present story. However, if Jon becomes the Sword of the Morning because he is a Dayne and not simply because of a heroic deed related to the Long Night, then what is the point in making Dawn the original Ice? What is the point in associating it with the Starks if this connection does not matter in the present story? No Dayne needs Stark blood in order to become the Sword of the Morning, and Daynes can apparently wield Dawn without fighting the Night King. 

4 hours ago, Anath said:

While normally, it would be enough for a worthy Stark to reclaim a Stark sword, I see a problem with it because if the OP's theory is true, Ice-Dawn wasn't a sword touched by a betrayal and waiting for the redeemed Stark to reclaim it. It's a sword that's actually used by those Daynes who were worthy. It doesn't look like it's "reserved" for a Stark. It might have been this way, but it's definitely a Dayne sword now. The Stark betrayal was just too great to be overcome so easily. 

Easily? Winning it back after many thousands of years, when another Long Night comes, when the Others attack again and the realm is in a desperate situation, when a hero comes who may have to fight and suffer and sacrifice and eventually stay true in order to save the people of the realm? I wouldn't call it easy. 

The sword may not be reserved for a Stark, but what heroic deeds do we know of that the various Swords of the Morning have performed over the millennia? I know Arthur killed the Smiling Knight... The sword seems to be related to the Others, and fighting them may just be the event that changes the rules... perhaps a change happens every time (not just once) when someone uses the sword to fight the Others or the Night King or the Long Night.