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How Ice Became Dawn (Updated)


Voice of the First Men

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So, I feel q pertinent question would be, how long has Ice been Lost and how long are the daynes recorded to have held dawn? Is there any textual evidence to answer these questions?

If Ice is dawn, does that mean the tale of dawn being forged from a falling star is just a story they created to make it appear that it is theirs? Are we suggesting that house dayne and stark are related, way back and the tale is true of both swords, being the same?

 

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1 hour ago, Trogdor Targaryen said:

So, I feel q pertinent question would be, how long has Ice been Lost and how long are the daynes recorded to have held dawn? Is there any textual evidence to answer these questions?

If Ice is dawn, does that mean the tale of dawn being forged from a falling star is just a story they created to make it appear that it is theirs? Are we suggesting that house dayne and stark are related, way back and the tale is true of both swords, being the same?

 

We have no idea when the original Ice was lost, only that the current version is not the original.

The Daynes go back to "the Dawn of Days" or "ten thousand years," and TWOIAF says for all anyone can say, the Daynes have had it for thousands of years. @Voice is suggesting the sword was lost during the Long Night, I believe, band that the heart of the fallen star thing is a metaphor, if I recall, although I'll let him answer that for you. But yeah, he's suggesting a very distant relation. 

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On February 10, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Julia H. said:

But that is what the characters in-universe know - because that is what has been the custom for thousands of years. Yandel doesn't seem to be expecting another Long Night to come so soon, and there seems to be a general belief in Westeros that the Others do not exist. Yandel (just like probably the general public) doesn't seem to know anything of the origin of Dawn (as per Voice's theory). Why would he ever think of the possibility that the sword might change families when he has never heard that it has already done so?

Yes--without more info, we don't know the source of the custom. And I'm not fully sold on @Voice's theory. But, so far, we have seen ancient magical blood that runs in families--IE: wargs and skinchangers.

And we haven't been given any clue (far as I can see) that Dawn isn't always wielded by a Dayne. Or that any Dayne will do--like other swords. Or be lent out. We have SOME clue that dragons might be ridable by non-Targs. Perhaps the riders are all dragon-seeds. Perhaps not. So--a clue that there's wiggle room. But--can you think of any wiggle room hinted at re: Dawn? Until we get more info, seems like there's reason to stick to it very likely has to be a Dayne. . . 

On February 10, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Julia H. said:

To be honest I don't think it's necessary (but that's a matter of opinion). If the Starks need redemption, they can only be redeemed by a Stark. If the next heroic deed is done by another Dayne and the hero gets acknowledged as a Dayne hero, then House Stark is not redeemed. Then the next Sword of the Morning will be another Dayne, whose Stark blood (if any) is irrelevant in this respect. 

A fair point. And the idea of "redeeming" the Night's King seems.  . a bit melodramatic. Though we do have all of the Starks in the tombs--who seem like they are waiting for something. And Jon dreams about going down and they come out of their tombs. If there's a redemption for House Stark--I'm thinking it's in the army of the dead.

The question re: the sword might come down to the blood of the first men. Coming back to the Wall and into the fight. With the right sword and blood. And the Daynes and Starks are as old and first as it gets. 

On February 10, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Julia H. said:

Perhaps. But I still maintain that this theory offers a (potential) way for a Stark to wield Dawn without being a son of Starfall, to win the sword back in a way that mirrors the way it was lost. 

If Dawn is really the original Ice, it would be really interesting if it had relevance to the present story. However, if Jon becomes the Sword of the Morning because he is a Dayne and not simply because of a heroic deed related to the Long Night, then what is the point in making Dawn the original Ice? What is the point in associating it with the Starks if this connection does not matter in the present story? No Dayne needs Stark blood in order to become the Sword of the Morning, and Daynes can apparently wield Dawn without fighting the Night King. 

Very good points. But, on the first bolded, far as we know, being a Dayne is NOT enough to wield the sword. One has to do. . . something. Until then, no one wields it. Dawn waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning rises. So, one way or another, Jon has to earn that sword.

On the second bolded--it might depend on the relationship between the Starks and the Daynes. Are they from the same family? A Stark in Winterfell took down the Stark Night's King (according to Nan). So--did they send a Stark south with the sword and he became the Daynes? Like the Karstarks (with their sun-sigil--the sun of winter--for some reason, that's starting to bug me) are a break off of the Starks.

No way at present to answer all of this, far as I can see. But Martin has set up parallels and echoes between the North and Dorne. Has established a connection between Starfall and Winterfell. Has had Jon, who looks as Stark as it gets, see the Sword of the Morning. And earn a sword. Somehow--really looks like that sword is tied to the Wall, the sword that the North needs. And we know that Ned's Ice was an echo of an old sword. So. . . what's the sword Martin's told us (so far) is tied to the Wall? Dawn. 

Not sure how it all works, but seems like there's a chance for this.

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I think George has provided ample evidence regarding hereditary swords being passed to second sons, bastard sons, and even non-family members precisely because  those the first borns whose right it is to inherit have not proven themselves worthy

Heartsbane: Randyll Tarly disinherits Sam and sends him to the NW with these words - "Heartsbane must go to a man strong enough to wield her, and you are not worthy to touch her hilt" 

Blackfrye: Aegon IV, , gave Blackfyre not to his heir, Daeron, but to his bastard son Daemon. It was said he was the better man and a better king. Daemon, famous for his martial skill,  became known as "the King who bore the sword".

Lady Forlorn: After the battle of the Trident, Lord Corbray gave the sword to his younger son Lyn, instead of the elder Lyonel Corbray for a similar reason - Lyn proved himself worthy of the sword by killing the man who wounded Lord Corbray. (Interestingly, Lady Forlorn is similar to Ice in appearance).

Longclaw:  most significantly, LC Mormont gives his ancestral sword to Jon Snow, an outsider, not even of his House. He does this because his son Jorah brought dishonour on the house. He deems Jon Snow worthy of the sword. "He is giving me his son’s sword. Jon could scarcely believe it. The blade was exquisitely balanced. The edges glimmered faintly as they kissed the light. “Your son—”
“My son brought dishonor to House Mormont ..."

Mormont gives Jon the sword because the latter has proven himself worthy of it. 

All these examples show that a Valyrain family sword can pass to sons other than the official heir and even extend to non-family members who have proven themselves worthy. Dawn could thus easily go to Jon without him having to be a 'secret Dayne'. There are enough precedents for such a scenario. In fact, in relation to the above, Gerold Dayne, has already proven himself unworthy of Dawn. 

 

Arya and Needle

While re-reading some of Arya's chapters the other day, I noticed something rather interesting. Consider the scene where she hides Needle:

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Her swordbelt went into the canal. Her cloak, tunic, breeches, smallclothes, all of it. All but Needle.
She stood on the end of the dock, pale and goosefleshed and shivering in the fog. In her hand, Needle seemed to whisper to her. Stick them with the pointy end, it said, and, don’t tell Sansa! Mikken’s mark was on the blade. It’s just a sword. If she needed a sword, there were a hundred under the temple. Needle was too small to be a proper sword, it was hardly more than a toy. She’d been a stupid little girl when Jon had it made for her. “It’s just a sword,” she said, aloud this time …
… but it wasn’t.


Needle was Robb and Bran and Rickon, her mother and her father, even Sansa. Needle was Winterfell’s grey walls, and the laughter of its people. Needle was the summer snows, Old Nan’s stories, the heart tree with its red leaves and scary face, the warm earthy smell of the glass gardens, the sound of the north wind rattling the shutters of her room. Needle was Jon Snow’s smile. He used to mess my hair and call me “little sister,” she remembered, and suddenly there were tears in her eyes.


Polliver had stolen the sword from her when the Mountain’s men took her captive, but when she and the Hound walked into the inn at the crossroads, there it was. The gods wanted me to have it. Not the Seven, nor Him of Many Faces, but her father’s gods, the old gods of the north. The Many-Faced God can have the rest, she thought, but he can’t have this.


She padded up the steps as naked as her name day, clutching Needle. Halfway up, one of the stones rocked beneath her feet. Arya knelt and dug around its edges with her fingers. It would not move at first, but she persisted, picking at the crumbling mortar with her nails. Finally, the stone shifted. She grunted and got both hands in and pulled. A crack opened before her.
“You’ll be safe here,” she told Needle. “No one will know where you are but me.” She pushed the sword and sheath behind the step, then shoved the stone back into place, so it looked like all the other stones. As she climbed back to the temple, she counted steps, so she would know where to find the sword again. One day she might have need of it. “One day,” she whispered to herself.

Needle seems to have a mystic life of its own. Like the trees and stars, it whispers to Arya. Mikken, the smith who forged the sword is highlighted here. Indeed, he is often emphasised in some way in connection with Needle. 

It then hits Arya that Needle is no ordinary sword - the green passage shows how strongly she associates Needle with Winterfell. Interesting - Needle is Jon Snow's smile. George often uses the smile as an analogy to a cut throat - the red smile. 

Next, in the purple passage, Arya recalls Needle's journey - stolen by Polliver etc. but it returns to her. She's also convinced that the gods want her to have it and so decides to keep it - to hide it. 

Now, if you pay attention to the last passage, the possible hidden subtext (shifting a stone, hiding the sword beneath the stone, shoving the stone into place) recalls shifting the stone top of a tomb in the crypts of winterfell and sliding it back into place. Additionally, she climbs up the steps and counts them on the way. And there's this sense of 'needing' it one day

Arya also recalls the time when Jon stepped out of a tomb in the crypts, covered in flour, scaring the wits out of Sansa and the little ones. Arya recognizes the joke at once. Interestingly, she thinks of the stable boy she killed during her escape from the Red Keep right after this story and relates him to Jon's rising from the tomb, stating she'll just kill the stableboy again if he does. It's the first time she's used Needle to take a life and she happened to emerge from the castle dungeons at the time. 

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When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb’s leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. “You stupid,” she told him, “you scared the baby,” but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.
The memory made Arya smile, and after that the darkness held no more terrors for her. The stableboy was dead, she’d killed him, and if he jumped out at her she’d kill him again.

Perhaps all this has been noticed before, I don't know - swords are not my main interest. However, I feel that there is a connection between the above passages and the whereabouts of the magic sword, be it Dawn or Lightbringer. Think about it - 

Arya mirrors Lyanna in many ways. Let's say Needle is a stand in for Dawn. and the above suggests Dawn might be in the crypts of Winterfell. How could it have ended up there? All we know is that Ned returned Dawn to Starfall, yet there hasn't been another Sword of the Morning since Arthur Dayne's death. No clue as to where they keep sword either. There was also something Howland Reed said that prevented Arthur from killing Ned and Howland most probably knows and remembers things that others don't. Whatever the case, the possiblilty remains that Ned took the sword with him to Winterfell and buried it together with Lyanna's remains in the crypt. Jon's dreams indicate that he must look for something in the crypts - many speculate on the sword or the harp.

Mikken's mark

Mikken was a master smith - the quality of his work is often noted. Moreover, he obviously signed his work with an engraving - Mikken's 'mark',  often mentioned in connection with his products. Mikken also forged Ned's tomb-sword, the last to carry his mark. The constant references to Mikken's 'mark' suggests there  something special about his work. Could he have known the secrets of re-forging Valyrian Steel? Consider this passage:

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In the close confines of the iron cage, he (Jon) was acutely aware of the red woman’s presence. She even smells red. The scent reminded him of Mikken’s forge, of the way iron smelled when red-hot; the scent was smoke and blood. Kissed by fire, he thought, remembering Ygritte.

The scent of red-hot iron was smoke and blood. Why would it smell of blood? Let's visit Tobho Mott's workshop. When Ned enters this is what he notes: Inside, "a forge blazed in each corner, and the air stank of smoke and sulfur". Now, this is what I would expect. Tobho Mott knows the secrets of reforging Valyrian steel but we also know that Valyrian Steel blades aren't reforged everyday. Smoke and sulfur should be the rule - Jon's observation is very odd. There are more irregularities and odd statements regarding Needle as well - keeping it a secret from Sansa, who happens to be in LF's 'care' and also the suggestion that Needle might not work against the Bastard of Bolton. 

Putting all this together may suggest Ned did indeed bring Dawn to Winterfell together with Lyanna's remains and baby Jon. Mikken may have reforged the sword into a Lightbringer sword. There's no evidence of any Nissa Nissa stuff here but that may be a future addition. If the forging through the heart of a woman is still necessary, keeping Needle a secret from Sansa could be a hint that she's the victim. She's kissed by fire (note Jon remembers Ygritte above). Jon almost killed Ygritte during their first encounter and all the stuff I've been working on suggests those 'kissed by fire' not 'lucky', rather they are potential sacrificial victims. 

Anyway, just some thoughts and observations..

PS Edit - Just to elaborate: 'Kissed by fire' is a subtle reference to the comet that strikes the second moon as demonstrated so well by @LmL

 

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Ice = Dawn feels very forced to me.  Dawn has it's own legend and origin story which need to be ignored for it to be Ice.  What does Ice have to do with tracking a falling star to where it landed and forging a sword from the heart of the resulting meteorite?  Did the Starks and Daynes collaborate and craft a fake origin story for Dawn?  The original Ice does appear to have gone missing, but I think Dawn is Dawn.

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On 10.02.2016 г. at 0:25 AM, Julia H. said:

Easily? Winning it back after many thousands of years, when another Long Night comes, when the Others attack again and the realm is in a desperate situation, when a hero comes who may have to fight and suffer and sacrifice and eventually stay true in order to save the people of the realm? I wouldn't call it easy. 

The sword may not be reserved for a Stark, but what heroic deeds do we know of that the various Swords of the Morning have performed over the millennia? I know Arthur killed the Smiling Knight... The sword seems to be related to the Others, and fighting them may just be the event that changes the rules... perhaps a change happens every time (not just once) when someone uses the sword to fight the Others or the Night King or the Long Night. 

 

Easily, yes. In GRRM's world, I can't remember a single good guy - or hero, if you'd rather - who singlehandedly succeeded some good and lasting change. With his villains, it's another matter altogether. Their mischief is more easily achieved. Good guys have it harder. It's just too straighforward to pull the sword from the stone, wield it in defense of good and right and achieve the erasion of a shame that's thousand years old. Old grudges last long, old friendships are forgotten at the tip of a hat, aka the Laughing Storm. Bad reputation remains.

The sword is most definitely not reserved for a Stark and we have no idea what the Swords of the Mornings did but we don't know what promise the Prince is supposed to fulfull either. Doesn't stop the fandom - and the characters - from thinking that he's extremely important. IMO, there must be a reason to have a Sword of the Morning at all. We just haven't been given it yet. Else, it makes little sense to me - the title, the fact that someone must be worthy... Who knows, perhaps the test is to be able to make a kill with Dawn while holding it with one hand and that's why no one bothers to mention it (Arthur wouldn't qualify here but Robert Baratheon :unsure:) But there must be something, else the whole Sword of the Morning thing reeks of mock if we take the OP's theory to be true I believe the sword is related to the Others as I believe the legend of the the fallen star is a legend about someone fallen into "otherness" and killed (my connection is with the night's queen but still) and I don't think any House would make a mockery out of their own ancestral blade.

I don't necessarily believe in the OP's idea but it's an interesting one. Jon cannot redeem the Starks because he isn't a Stark if he's Lyanna's son. It doesn't even matter who his father is. Boys take the name of their father's House and we know that name means a lot. He's just someone with a Stark blood. Not a Stark of Winterfell. He may prove himself worthy to carry Ice-Dawn but not redeem House Stark. He doesn't belong to it. And his only claim for "legitimacy" in this scenario might come from having recent Dayne blood.

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51 minutes ago, TheSnowInWinterfell said:

I don't remember where its mentioned that the original Ice is milkglass. Where can I find that?

That's now quote what I meant, lol. There's a whole thread of symbolism around milkglass which leads to some interesting places. Consider: the bones of the Others are also pale as milkglass. Their swords are crystal, not milkglass, but they are called "pale swords" which are "alive with moonlight," which is very similar to Dawn being a sword made from a pale stone which is as pale as milkglass and alive with light. There's a lot more to it, but that's the tip of the iceberg. 

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On 2016. 02. 12. at 3:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

Yes--without more info, we don't know the source of the custom. And I'm not fully sold on @Voice's theory. But, so far, we have seen ancient magical blood that runs in families--IE: wargs and skinchangers.

And we haven't been given any clue (far as I can see) that Dawn isn't always wielded by a Dayne. Or that any Dayne will do--like other swords. Or be lent out. We have SOME clue that dragons might be ridable by non-Targs. Perhaps the riders are all dragon-seeds. Perhaps not. So--a clue that there's wiggle room. But--can you think of any wiggle room hinted at re: Dawn? Until we get more info, seems like there's reason to stick to it very likely has to be a Dayne. . . 

Other swords have been inherited in unusual ways in the story, as Evolett listed above. If Voice's theory is correct (i.e. that Dawn is original Ice, a Stark sword), then Dawn has most definitely changed families once. If there is any room for this theory to be true, then there must be be room for the idea that Dawn may change families again - in special circumstances which would mirror how the previous change of ownership happened. Of course, it is not something that the average Westerosi, who doesn't know the secret history of Dawn, expects.  

It is also possible that Dawn is not original Ice after all. That would make it more difficult for Jon Snow to wield it - but the author can still find a way. He can make Jon Snow a Dayne. I doubt he will, but it's possible. In this case Dawn can simply be Dawn, any connection with the Starks would be just irrelevant. 

On 2016. 02. 12. at 3:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

A fair point. And the idea of "redeeming" the Night's King seems.  . a bit melodramatic. Though we do have all of the Starks in the tombs--who seem like they are waiting for something. And Jon dreams about going down and they come out of their tombs. If there's a redemption for House Stark--I'm thinking it's in the army of the dead.

The question re: the sword might come down to the blood of the first men. Coming back to the Wall and into the fight. With the right sword and blood. And the Daynes and Starks are as old and first as it gets. 

Redeeming the Night King? I would say redeeming the Starks. 

On 2016. 02. 12. at 3:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

Very good points. But, on the first bolded, far as we know, being a Dayne is NOT enough to wield the sword. One has to do. . . something. Until then, no one wields it. Dawn waits at Starfall until the next Sword of the Morning rises. So, one way or another, Jon has to earn that sword.

The question is what would be more important in a truly critical situation? To deserve the sword, to (be able to) use it for a very important purpose (like defending the realm against the arch-enemy) or to be a Dayne?  

On 2016. 02. 12. at 3:46 AM, Sly Wren said:

On the second bolded--it might depend on the relationship between the Starks and the Daynes. Are they from the same family? A Stark in Winterfell took down the Stark Night's King (according to Nan). So--did they send a Stark south with the sword and he became the Daynes? Like the Karstarks (with their sun-sigil--the sun of winter--for some reason, that's starting to bug me) are a break off of the Starks.

No way at present to answer all of this, far as I can see. But Martin has set up parallels and echoes between the North and Dorne. Has established a connection between Starfall and Winterfell. Has had Jon, who looks as Stark as it gets, see the Sword of the Morning. And earn a sword. Somehow--really looks like that sword is tied to the Wall, the sword that the North needs. And we know that Ned's Ice was an echo of an old sword. So. . . what's the sword Martin's told us (so far) is tied to the Wall? Dawn. 

Not sure how it all works, but seems like there's a chance for this.

Good points.

On the bolded:

Jon specifically earned a sword that he had no "official right" to, i.e., he earned the sword of another family, not because he was related to them but solely on the basis of merit.  

If Dawn is the sword that the North needs, wouldn't it make sense that a member of the most prominent Northern family earns it and gets it? Perhaps gets it back? That it's time for the sword to go North?

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17 hours ago, Anath said:

Easily, yes. In GRRM's world, I can't remember a single good guy - or hero, if you'd rather - who singlehandedly succeeded some good and lasting change. With his villains, it's another matter altogether. Their mischief is more easily achieved. Good guys have it harder. It's just too straighforward to pull the sword from the stone, wield it in defense of good and right and achieve the erasion of a shame that's thousand years old. Old grudges last long, old friendships are forgotten at the tip of a hat, aka the Laughing Storm. Bad reputation remains.

How many thousand-year-old shames have we heard of in the story? And redemption, as I mean it here, is not a question of reputation. So far no one in-universe seems to have brought up the Night King to shame House Stark. Their standing in Westeros is not defined by the reputation of the Night King.

Good and lasting change? Saving the realm from the Others seems to be on the agenda anyway. It wouldn't automatically make Westeros fairyland though. With regard to House Stark, an old debt would be paid, a sword and the title of the Sword of the Morning would be won (back?), but life would go on as usual (provided the realm was saved), and future Starks would still have to make their own choices. 

As for easy, all right, so you indeed think that winning back the sword by saving the people of the realm from total destruction and from a very dangerous enemy in extremely difficult circumstances by making heroic efforts and probably great personal sacrifices counts as easy. I disagree. ("A sword's small payment for a life", Mormont concluded. And he was speaking of one life only.) That is, however, a matter of opinion, so I'm happy to just agree to disagree.  

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The sword is most definitely not reserved for a Stark and we have no idea what the Swords of the Mornings did but we don't know what promise the Prince is supposed to fulfull either. Doesn't stop the fandom - and the characters - from thinking that he's extremely important. IMO, there must be a reason to have a Sword of the Morning at all. We just haven't been given it yet. Else, it makes little sense to me - the title, the fact that someone must be worthy... Who knows, perhaps the test is to be able to make a kill with Dawn while holding it with one hand and that's why no one bothers to mention it (Arthur wouldn't qualify here but Robert Baratheon :unsure:) But there must be something, else the whole Sword of the Morning thing reeks of mock if we take the OP's theory to be true I believe the sword is related to the Others as I believe the legend of the the fallen star is a legend about someone fallen into "otherness" and killed (my connection is with the night's queen but still) and I don't think any House would make a mockery out of their own ancestral blade.

Interesting, but I don't see how it relates to what I'm saying.

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I don't necessarily believe in the OP's idea but it's an interesting one. Jon cannot redeem the Starks because he isn't a Stark if he's Lyanna's son. It doesn't even matter who his father is. Boys take the name of their father's House and we know that name means a lot. He's just someone with a Stark blood. Not a Stark of Winterfell. He may prove himself worthy to carry Ice-Dawn but not redeem House Stark. He doesn't belong to it. And his only claim for "legitimacy" in this scenario might come from having recent Dayne blood.

As I said above, the redemption of House Stark is not a question of social prestige. House Stark doesn't need to be absolved of the crimes of the Night King in front of a Westerosi criminal court. I don't think a magical / karmic debt cares much about legitimacy. Jon is a Stark by blood, upbringing, values and allegiance, even looks. There is plenty of evidence in the books that he identifies himself as "a son of Eddard Stark", even that other people regard him as a son of Eddard Stark, that he is a true Stark of Winterfell. He does not need legitimacy to be worthy of any honour in the moral sense. The rest is only social prejudice, and even that can be blown away by the "winds of winter", given the kind of political and natural disaster towards which Westeros is apparently heading.  

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On February 13, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Julia H. said:

Other swords have been inherited in unusual ways in the story, as Evolett listed above. If Voice's theory is correct (i.e. that Dawn is original Ice, a Stark sword), then Dawn has most definitely changed families once. If there is any room for this theory to be true, then there must be be room for the idea that Dawn may change families again - in special circumstances which would mirror how the previous change of ownership happened. Of course, it is not something that the average Westerosi, who doesn't know the secret history of Dawn, expects.  

It is also possible that Dawn is not original Ice after all. That would make it more difficult for Jon Snow to wield it - but the author can still find a way. He can make Jon Snow a Dayne. I doubt he will, but it's possible. In this case Dawn can simply be Dawn, any connection with the Starks would be just irrelevant. 

All true. And even possible that the Daynes and the Starks are one family. And that this is going back to the need for far-removed magical blood incest.

Yes. . .. sorry for ruining your reading pleasure by putting that image into your head. :leaving:

On February 13, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Julia H. said:

Redeeming the Night King? I would say redeeming the Starks.

Yes--I can't shake the potential reference in the novels to Tolkien. Jon's recurring dream in the crypts--which eventually leads to his going "further" and the kings come out of their tombs. Seems so much like Aragorn's leading the Men of Dunharrow. They broke an oath. Are the Stark dead "keeping" and oath to wait? The original oath (as Sam says at the Black Gate) has no mention of the watch ending. 

If so, does a Stark who is not a Stark--the Sword of the Morning--have to raise them to the fight? And can that question possibly get more hypothetical? But Aragorn couldn't lead until he got the sword used in the previous "final battle. . . " Hmmm.

On February 13, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Julia H. said:

The question is what would be more important in a truly critical situation? To deserve the sword, to (be able to) use it for a very important purpose (like defending the realm against the arch-enemy) or to be a Dayne?

In Martinlandia, a world with magical blood, might it not be both?

On February 13, 2016 at 5:24 AM, Julia H. said:

Jon specifically earned a sword that he had no "official right" to, i.e., he earned the sword of another family, not because he was related to them but solely on the basis of merit.  

If Dawn is the sword that the North needs, wouldn't it make sense that a member of the most prominent Northern family earns it and gets it? Perhaps gets it back? That it's time for the sword to go North?

Yup! Very possible. "The Sword of the Morning still hung in the south." Until it goes north?

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On 2/9/2016 at 11:02 AM, Julia H. said:

My point is not based on GRRM, it is based entirely on your theory. GRRM never said that Dawn had once belonged to the Starks, that it had not started out originally as a Dayne sword. I was commenting on your theory about Dawn being the original Ice. If it changed families once, it can change families again. If it was lost to the Starks, it can be recovered again. If a Stark sinned during the Long Night so that the punishment (the loss of an extraordinary sword) affected many generations to come, another Stark may put it right when another Long Night comes. 

While I follow your reasoning, and it makes perfect sense, we simply do not know if this is how it works. Both the text and SSM have attested that Dawn is awaiting a son of Starfall. While if my theory proves true, I agree that a Stark did indeed lose Ice, and that it became Dawn, it remains to be seen if this is a two-way street. I don't think it is. Per the precedent (in theory, at least), a Sword of the Morning would have to go to the dark side, become allied with the Others, and then be disarmed by a man named "Stark"...which, of course, Jon is not.

On 2/9/2016 at 11:02 AM, Julia H. said:

If Dawn was not originally a Stark sword (Ice), then we can't expect that it will ever become a Stark sword, because why would it be? If it was a Stark sword, however, then it can be a Stark sword again despite the current rules, which may just be changed by another Long Night. 

Well, not really. Again, I see your reasoning, but we have no way of knowing that the canonical rules that govern the attainment of Dawn and the choosing of the "Sword of the Morning" can, or will, change.

Is it possible? Certainly.

Is the game changing now that the Long Night 2.0 seems nigh? Of course.

But neither of these speculations can trump what the text (and SSMs) tell us regarding Dawn. Per the text, Dawn awaits a son of Starfall. If it were simply as simple a matter as disarming a Dayne, and claiming the sword, then Ned should have been able to keep Dawn. Yet, for reasons unexplained, he did not.

On 2/9/2016 at 11:02 AM, Julia H. said:

Ned gave the sword back to the Daynes. It could mean he wasn't the Stark yet who was worthy of winning it back. It would be poignant if Jon received it eventually.

It could mean that, but we can't assume that any "Stark" can wield Dawn. I would say that the fall of Night's King precludes that ever happening, and the disgrace itself is why no "Stark" would ever want a reminder of it in his hand.

It would indeed be fitting if Jon received it eventually, but per the text, the only way that can happen is IF Jon is a Son of Starfall.

On 2/9/2016 at 11:02 AM, Julia H. said:

That's my idea, which seems to come logically from yours (which I really like). 

It is completely logical, just not canonical. (And I'm very glad you like my theory, flattery will get you everywhere. LOL)

On 2/9/2016 at 11:02 AM, Julia H. said:

Even if Jon was born in Starfall, I have difficulty seeing him as a son of Starfall (regardless of the quantity of Dayne blood in his veins) - he is all about the North and Winterfell. He has a hard-earned right to be a Stark. I totally like the idea of Jon becoming the Sword of the Morning, but I see great difficulties if the rule that Dawn may only be wielded by a son of Starfall does not change. To me your theory is the solution to the problem, because if Dawn used to be a Stark sword, then it can become a Stark sword again. All it may take is another Long Night and a Stark hero.

Is he all about the North and Winterfell though? One must keep in mind that Ghost does not simply resemble "northern trees", Ghost resembles the indigenous heart of Westeros that manifests itself in tree-form. There were once heart trees all over the continent. The "Old Gods" were once the "Only Gods" - from Dorne to the Neck. We often view Jon in a northern light (heh) because Winterfell is a place where these entities remain. But the blood of the First Men still flows through the veins of the Daynes, as it does the Starks. How do we reconcile those two seemingly different Houses?

Better yet, how do we reconcile them in the face of GRRM's three threats that he outlined in 1993 (The Lion/Direwolf civil war, Dany and her dragons, and the half-forgotten demons out of legend - the Others).

Well, I think this theory allows Jon himself to reconcile all of these loose ends and tie them together in a way that seems to have a great deal of bearing upon the resolution of the series.

 

On 2/10/2016 at 9:32 AM, Anath said:

While normally, it would be enough for a worthy Stark to reclaim a Stark sword, I see a problem with it because if the OP's theory is true, Ice-Dawn wasn't a sword touched by a betrayal and waiting for the redeemed Stark to reclaim it.

Exactly!

On 2/10/2016 at 9:32 AM, Anath said:

It's a sword that's actually used by those Daynes who were worthy. It doesn't look like it's "reserved" for a Stark. It might have been this way, but it's definitely a Dayne sword now. The Stark betrayal was just too great to be overcome so easily. As far as I know, none of the mythical heroes with waiting sword came from a line so stained by betrayal.

Precisely!

On 2/10/2016 at 9:32 AM, Anath said:

(BTW, I am not sure that Vorian Dayne, the Sword of the Evening, was indeed a dark warrior. I am more inclined to think his moniker reflected the fact that he was the last Dayne king but I might be mistaken. He might have been called that while still king. I don't have the world book with me right now.)

Very interesting. I had never considered before that the "Evening" moniker might be due to him being the last...until another Son rose.

On 2/10/2016 at 9:32 AM, Anath said:

And while Jon starts definitely like a son of Winterfell and identifies himself so, in the very start of his journey he's disappointed with Ned, realizing that Ned had sent him to the Wall without disabusing him of his idealistic notions and in fact, closing him any way back. Without Ned in the North, which bannerman would be eager to take his bastard son in? He might be attached to his former home and his family but as his new life changes him, his insistence that he wouldn't forget his father comes across as having some desperate wish to not let things change because he can feel them changing. Kill the boy and let the man be born - well, the boy is literally killed. Perhaps the son of Winterfell (in his heart) will "die" in a way and what will rise will be neither a son of Winterfell nor Starfall (if he is such by blood) and at the same time, both? I doubt we'll see an unJon but I don't think we'll see an unchanged Jon either.

Agreed. Rather than remain beholden to Winterfell, Jon gives up his claim to it.

 

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On 2/10/2016 at 8:25 AM, Sly Wren said:

Touche, ser! Though Ned doesn't play "stab the Watchman"--Theon does that by kicking the head. . . 

He even laughs!

It should be noted that unlike Robb, and even Ned, Jon does not at all approve of Theon's mockery. Very interesting...

On 2/10/2016 at 8:25 AM, Sly Wren said:

And fits with the echoes/parallels between the north and Dorne. Which is why I'm thinking Jon's a uniting memory for both Starfall and Winterfell--for readers, but also for characters. An unintended union or reunion.

Indeed. North is the land of Blue Winter Roses, where shaggy garrons lope across snow-capped mountains. South is the land of Dornish Reds, where sand steeds gracefully slide across Red Mountains.

Stars unite them.... In the north, we find the eye of the Ice Dragon. In the south, we find the Sword of the Morning.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:25 AM, Sly Wren said:

:agree:

So, under your theory, would he be able to "turn" the sword back to its original purpose? Rather like Brienne (who tells us the story of Galladon and Just Maid) is "turning" Oathkeeper back to its original Icy purpose--administering Starky justice?

Mayhaps. I think the sword takes on the persona of the wielder. In the hands of "Mayhaps Brandon" Stark that became Night's King, it was Ice. In the hands of the man that cast him down, it was Dawn. In the hands of Jon, it could be something the likes of which has never before been seen. Unless of course, you've spent an inordinate amount of time looking at Tyndall effects and milkglass crystals, as I have. LOL

I'm thinking that in Jon's hand, which notably was burned in the act of killing a wight with eyes like blue stars, the sword too will burn. Though pale as milkglass, it will cast red light - and heat.

I believe that for the first time ever, Dawn will look like Dawn itself. The Mourning Son will be the Morning Sun. The "Sword of the Morning" will truly look - and feel - like sunrise.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:25 AM, Sly Wren said:

True--the Night's King echo of Beric (fire wight) and Allyria seems like it holds for the south. Better than just the Evenstar. 

Agreed. :)

On 2/10/2016 at 8:25 AM, Sly Wren said:

Still--that story of a sword that can only be drawn against certain foes. . . that really sounds like a potential echo for what Dawn does. .. 

Dawn seems the most particular of all swords, right? Few others only present themselves to the "worthy" in such a manner. I can think of no others in this universe, though it does indeed have strong parallels with those in other epics.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:25 AM, Sly Wren said:

I'm following you until we hit the bolded--need that explained. . . 

My apologies. That was a hearkening back to my other theory, regarding how the Others emerged as an autoimmune response to the influx of the First Men. I think they began as antibodies, then were militarized by the same man that militarized the Night's Watch. Bran the Builder...builder of many great forces.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:25 AM, Sly Wren said:

Though I think Jon's nightmare battle dream might be telling us the Last Hero held them off through the Hour of the Wolf with re-bladed Dawn--bringing the dawn, and thus defeat.

Indeed! And imagine how much differently that dream would have gone, if instead of killing Robb and Ygritte, he joined them, and bedded the latter. That is the missing piece of Jon's Dream. Jon remains at his post, the Night's King did not.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:25 AM, Sly Wren said:

Given how we have a few men getting seduced by women only to have their weapons turn on them in this story--I can see this. Though I am eager to hear the cold-forge theory if/when you get a chance.

Thanks :) it is in the works. I have one segment opened in Word as we speak. I might just go ahead and post the short version to get the conversation rolling. That might be easier, now that I think about it, than trying to predict which passages I should add for canonical support.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:35 AM, Sly Wren said:

Yes, of course. 

But the books (or at least the World Book) insist that one must be a Son of Starfall. 

Martin hath spake the same.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:35 AM, Sly Wren said:

And, given @Voice's argument, if the Starks mucked up being the Last Hero and the sword had to be taken from them by a protector, might not Jon need both the Stark blood and the worthy protector's blood to wield the sword against the Long Night?

Precisely my thinking.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:35 AM, Sly Wren said:

As usual, I'm loving your logic.

As am I. It is discussions like these that really help flesh out ideas.

On 2/10/2016 at 8:35 AM, Sly Wren said:

Would only add that while Jon is definitely a son of Winterfell, his life-long desire for identity via father's sword, and winning that identity via valor--that seems more Dayne than Stark. None of the other Starks seem to have that, even though they value Ice a LOT. They focus on Winterfell and their wolves for their identity. Long for their wolves when separated.

And don't forget, Ghost strayed away from the pack. The "Stark" pups all had their eyes closed (living in darkness). Jon's alone had its eyes open (living in light).

On 2/10/2016 at 8:35 AM, Sly Wren said:

Jon also longs for his wolf--and wants the true greatsword which is one via valor. That really seems like Dawn.

And Dawn alone, I'd argue. No other sword is represented this way. Ned's "Ice" being a new-made replica commands zero respect. It was seen by Tywin as absurdly compensating for something. I think this theory answers the 'why' of that.

Longclaw is even less honorable. It represents the downfall of a man (Jorah) who had evaded and betrayed Laws that are sacred to the First Men.... Hey, wait a minute... ;)

On 2/10/2016 at 8:35 AM, Sly Wren said:

Throw in that he's the only Stark who's also a sworn brother and protects the "small folk" (shout out to @superunknown5 for pointing this out to me), and Martin seems to be having Jon echo Arthur--the last Sword of the Morning. 

All of that might be nothing--except that we've been getting it since Game. And so it makes me think Jon's both Stark and Dayne--or that this is at least a reasonably possible outcome: son of Winterfell AND Starfall. Protector and Stark undoing the damage of the Night's King. . . 

Yup. And, I would add that few other combinations of blood present such a solution. Targaryens are conquerors, not heroes. Wylla is the dark horse that might provide a viable twist. If Jon were born at Starfall, and nourished by milk from Starfall, where his milkbrother is now Lord, can that make Jon worthy of Starfall's milkglass blade?

On 2/10/2016 at 2:25 PM, Julia H. said:

But that is what the characters in-universe know - because that is what has been the custom for thousands of years. Yandel doesn't seem to be expecting another Long Night to come so soon, and there seems to be a general belief in Westeros that the Others do not exist. Yandel (just like probably the general public) doesn't seem to know anything of the origin of Dawn (as per Voice's theory). Why would he ever think of the possibility that the sword might change families when he has never heard that it has already done so?

I think you're getting a little too caught up in the idea of Dawn/Ice changing families. If anything, the choosing of the Sword of the Morning demonstrates that "worthiness" is the determining factor.

Just as the Starks of Winterfell have maintained a thousands of years old connection to the Night, the Daynes have maintained a thousands of years old connection to the Dawn.

Jon, I believe, represents the duality that yields both.

On 2/10/2016 at 2:25 PM, Julia H. said:

To be honest I don't think it's necessary (but that's a matter of opinion). If the Starks need redemption, they can only be redeemed by a Stark.

Well, that rules Jon out, because he is "no Stark."

On 2/10/2016 at 2:25 PM, Julia H. said:

If the next heroic deed is done by another Dayne and the hero gets acknowledged as a Dayne hero, then House Stark is not redeemed.

Unless it were a bastard son of both houses, who carries the name of neither . . .

On 2/10/2016 at 2:25 PM, Julia H. said:

Then the next Sword of the Morning will be another Dayne, whose Stark blood (if any) is irrelevant in this respect.  

I have a feeling there won't be any more "Swords of the Morning" after Jon ("I am no Stark" and 'no Dayne') Snow, but that's another discussion.

On 2/10/2016 at 2:25 PM, Julia H. said:

Perhaps. But I still maintain that this theory offers a (potential) way for a Stark to wield Dawn without being a son of Starfall, to win the sword back in a way that mirrors the way it was lost. 

The one and only way for this to mirror the way it was lost is if a Sword of the Morning wielding Dawn were the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and gave his seed and soul to a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall....and made sacrifices to the Others.

And, the only way for Jon to be the worthy "no Stark" Stark to gain the blade would be if he then cast down that man, and disarmed him, claiming Ice-Dawn. I don't see that happening.

On 2/10/2016 at 2:25 PM, Julia H. said:

If Dawn is really the original Ice, it would be really interesting if it had relevance to the present story. However, if Jon becomes the Sword of the Morning because he is a Dayne and not simply because of a heroic deed related to the Long Night, then what is the point in making Dawn the original Ice? What is the point in associating it with the Starks if this connection does not matter in the present story? No Dayne needs Stark blood in order to become the Sword of the Morning, and Daynes can apparently wield Dawn without fighting the Night King. 

That's the beauty of this theory. Jon does not have to be a Stark or a Dayne. He only has to be Jon. Armored in his bastardy (black ice) with a sword that burns in his (burned) hand (Dawn).

Neither House gets the credit. And in truth, Jon will probably get little enough of it as it is.

The "Sword of the Morning" title was custom tailored for Jon. It is a blade and title that are bestowed upon a "worthy" son of Starfall. Jon doesn't have to be a Dayne in name. Jon can remain our favorite bastard.

And while no Dayne requires Stark Blood, can it hurt? Jon inherited a weirwood-colored direwolf from his Kings of Winter ancestry. I can imagine few men better equipped to end the Long Night than man who boasts a mother born from Winter's Kings and a Father that brought the Dawn.

On 2/10/2016 at 2:25 PM, Julia H. said:

Easily? Winning it back after many thousands of years, when another Long Night comes, when the Others attack again and the realm is in a desperate situation, when a hero comes who may have to fight and suffer and sacrifice and eventually stay true in order to save the people of the realm? I wouldn't call it easy. 

The sword may not be reserved for a Stark, but what heroic deeds do we know of that the various Swords of the Morning have performed over the millennia? I know Arthur killed the Smiling Knight... The sword seems to be related to the Others, and fighting them may just be the event that changes the rules... perhaps a change happens every time (not just once) when someone uses the sword to fight the Others or the Night King or the Long Night. 

All possible, but I feel this requires more invention than does the notion of Jon having a Dayne parent.

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On 2/11/2016 at 8:52 PM, Trogdor Targaryen said:

So, I feel q pertinent question would be, how long has Ice been Lost and how long are the daynes recorded to have held dawn? Is there any textual evidence to answer these questions?

If Ice is dawn, does that mean the tale of dawn being forged from a falling star is just a story they created to make it appear that it is theirs? Are we suggesting that house dayne and stark are related, way back and the tale is true of both swords, being the same?

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn I

"The man died well, I'll give him that," Ned said. He had a swatch of oiled leather in one hand. He ran it lightly up the greatsword as he spoke, polishing the metal to a dark glow. "I was glad for Bran's sake. You would have been proud of Bran."
"I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.
"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

 

A Feast for Crows - The Queenmaker

"And the riders," Spotted Sylva said. "Come, Your Grace, warm yourself. I should be honored if you'd let me serve you."
As she led the princess to the fire, Arianne found Ser Gerold behind her. "My House goes back ten thousand years, unto the dawn of days," he complained. "Why is it that my cousin is the only Dayne that anyone remembers?"
 

The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Andals Arrive

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.
Though many houses have their heirloom swords, they mostly pass the blades down from lord to lord. Some, such as the Corbrays have done, may lend the blade to a son or brother for his lifetime, only to have it return to the lord. But that is not the way of House Dayne. The wielder of Dawn is always given the title of Sword of the Morning, and only a knight of House Dayne who is deemed worthy can carry it.
For this reason, the Swords of the Morning are all famous throughout the Seven Kingdoms. There are boys who secretly dream of being a son of Starfall so they might claim that storied sword and its title. Most famous of all was Ser Arthur Dayne, the deadliest of King Aerys II's Kingsguard, who defeated the Kingswood Brotherhood and won renown in every tourney and mêlée. He died nobly with his sworn brothers at the end of Robert's Rebellion, after Lord Eddard Stark was said to have killed him in single combat. Lord Stark then returned Dawn to Starfall, and to Ser Arthur's kin, as a sign of respect.
 
---------
 
There are Other hints, notice the blade itself:

A Storm of Swords - Jaime VIII

Summed up like that, his life seemed a rather scant and mingy thing. Ser Barristan could have recorded a few of his other tourney victories, at least. And Ser Gerold might have written a few more words about the deeds he'd performed when Ser Arthur Dayne broke the Kingswood Brotherhood. He had saved Lord Sumner's life as Big Belly Ben was about to smash his head in, though the outlaw had escaped him. And he'd held his own against the Smiling Knight, though it was Ser Arthur who slew him. What a fight that was, and what a foe. The Smiling Knight was a madman, cruelty and chivalry all jumbled up together, but he did not know the meaning of fear. And Dayne, with Dawn in hand . . . The outlaw's longsword had so many notches by the end that Ser Arthur had stopped to let him fetch a new one. "It's that white sword of yours I want," the robber knight told him as they resumed, though he was bleeding from a dozen wounds by then. "Then you shall have it, ser," the Sword of the Morning replied, and made an end of it.

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. "Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
 
---------
 
Only one other sword in all the novels is ever said to have been "sharper than any razor"... and interestingly, its name is also Ice:

A Game of Thrones - Arya V

"Here, you!" an angry voice shouted at Arya, but she bowled past, shoving people aside, squirming between them, slamming into anyone in her way. A hand fumbled at her leg and she hacked at it, kicked at shins. A woman stumbled and Arya ran up her back, cutting to both sides, but it was no good, no good, there were too many people, no sooner did she make a hole than it closed again. Someone buffeted her aside. She could still hear Sansa screaming.
Ser Ilyn drew a two-handed greatsword from the scabbard on his back. As he lifted the blade above his head, sunlight seemed to ripple and dance down the dark metal, glinting off an edge sharper than any razor. Ice, she thought, he has Ice! Her tears streamed down her face, blinding her.
 
On 2/11/2016 at 10:44 PM, LmL said:

We have no idea when the original Ice was lost, only that the current version is not the original.

The Daynes go back to "the Dawn of Days" or "ten thousand years," and TWOIAF says for all anyone can say, the Daynes have had it for thousands of years. @Voice is suggesting the sword was lost during the Long Night, I believe, band that the heart of the fallen star thing is a metaphor, if I recall, although I'll let him answer that for you. But yeah, he's suggesting a very distant relation. 

Not distant, but yes, close enough. :)

On 2/12/2016 at 7:24 PM, Grody Brody said:

"Bringer of Dawn" - good candidate for house words for House Dayne

Very good indeed. :)

On 2/12/2016 at 8:36 AM, Rattenhoofd said:

Much of this goes over my head, but big compliments on the research and thinking work. One question though: Are you saying that Ice and Dawn are the same sword? I'm confused.

Indeed I am. The Original Ice dates to the Age of Heroes, like Dawn. Ned's Valyrian "Ice" does not.

On 2/12/2016 at 11:29 AM, White Ravens said:

Ice = Dawn feels very forced to me.  Dawn has it's own legend and origin story which need to be ignored for it to be Ice.  What does Ice have to do with tracking a falling star to where it landed and forging a sword from the heart of the resulting meteorite?  Did the Starks and Daynes collaborate and craft a fake origin story for Dawn?  The original Ice does appear to have gone missing, but I think Dawn is Dawn.

No description of a meteorite is ever given in the text. What is, is below, and we know not all Stars in ASOIAF are found in the sky. (See the Others, Symeon Star Eyes, Night's King and his queen.)

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"Was there one who was best of all?"
"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant.
 
 
----------
 
Now, compare that "forging" to the Other's blade in the prologue:

A Game of Thrones - Prologue

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
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On 2/12/2016 at 0:54 PM, LmL said:

What is amusing to me @Voice has not even gotten into the strongest link between original Ice and Dawn: milkglass. 

LOL All in due time.

On 2/15/2016 at 3:58 AM, Hangover of the Morning said:

Coming up with an extremely complicated and convoluted theory just so that a Special Snowflake can "rightfully" rob yet another family of their precious heirloom. 

Let me know if you come up with something interesting to add or argue. Just tag me if you do...

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