Jojen Paste

[chrisdaw]

12 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I always wondered  if Jaime and Bran would meet again (or at least he would remember Jaime)

Meeting in this case is a grey term. Criston Cole is Jaime's parallel. He was defeated (South) of the Gods Eye by the Northern Winter Wolves. The God's Eye surrounds the Isle of Faces, the sacred Isle of Faces is presumably one of the few places in the South still to have weirwoods.

In Bran's vision the Northerners execute (or perhaps sacrifice or judgement?) a prisoner in front of the weirwood he looks out from. In the sample chapter 

Spoiler

Asha attempts to convince Stannis to execute Theon in the Northern way, give him to the tree she says. This already has people speculating Theon is going to be brought to the tree and Bran is going to save him.

Watch it, Jaime is going to be defeated around the Gods Eye and taken alive when the North comes South, then taken to a weirwood on the Isle of Faces either for judgement or execution, but the tree is going to spare him.

[Meera of Tarth]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Those dads sure are a major influence over so many characters--I am touched when Bran wants to comfort Meera and says the weirpaste tastes like his mother's kisses.   Come on, it tastes like Mom's kisses--how bad can it be?   Then again I know a young lady who is fond of calling cotton candy crack for babies.   I'll have to think about this.   Meera is dutiful to the bitter end.   I imagine if I was her I would be bored out of my mind with no sunshine or real food or adventure to have.  She's sort of a 3rd wheel on a dream date in this current situation.   Add to that Jojen's pouting and sickening and apparent lack of forthcomingness, well there is a lot to make a kid restless and miserable there in the cave.   I got nothing for Meera actually understanding Bran's crush on her, but I think they are close enough for her to understand he is changing in ways she couldn't really fathom.   She's there to serve and has little to do in that service now.  It's clear she at least has to get out of there.   Don't discount the undisciplined power of Bran's thoughts, he may actually get a lot closer to her than anyone will be comfortable with simply because he's thinking it and feeling strange.  

As to Chrisdaw's connecting Bran's crush to Jamie's horrid act of love, it's symmetrical and poetic and makes an awful lot of sense in a story about a little boy who wants nothing to do with love stories.    Man that's good. 

It's possible Meera's journey will come to an end as well (and Hodor's?) and they will both leave the cave as well (and Jojen if he is not dead). And Meera is dutiful, tired and sad, so yes, maybe her service is just finished. But that makes me believe in the possibility that this situation could change her mind and make her question everything, as well!

Considering the Reed's kids don't know everything (were they just told to serve prince Bran until he reached the 3-eyedCrow?), couldn't she be interested in knowing the whole truth? Maybe not right now, but why not in a future? And she might be needed in a future if Bran is in peril (they have become friends). This is a subjective opinion of course, I like Meera and possibly see a potential evolution in a secondary character that may never happen.

However, what I felt after reading the last chapter of Bran was that he was not doing anything willingly. Not only that, he wanted to shout it out, but didn't because he just resigned himself, not changing his fate, accepting that it was important enough (which maybe will be true). So everyone in that chapter was sad and doing their duty. So I wonder if his inner thoughts and actions (saying to himself being a greenseer was cool enough and anyone would like to marry him, entering Hodor's body to explore the cave in an act of rebellion because he doesn't want to sit in a tree, or thinking about it again to touch her because she was sad) was just a sad way to express the thoughts of someone who will sacrifice his life even more, someone who has never done what he wanted in 5 books; or there is more than meets the eye, and maybe Bran's future is not already written.

[Meera of Tarth]

14 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Meeting in this case is a grey term. Criston Cole is Jaime's parallel. He was defeated (South) of the Gods Eye by the Northern Winter Wolves. The God's Eye surrounds the Isle of Faces, the sacred Isle of Faces is presumably one of the few places in the South still to have weirwoods.

In Bran's vision the Northerners execute (or perhaps sacrifice or judgement?) a prisoner in front of the weirwood he looks out from. In the sample chapter 

  Reveal hidden contents

Asha attempts to convince Stannis to execute Theon in the Northern way, give him to the tree she says. This already has people speculating Theon is going to be brought to the tree and Bran is going to save him.

Watch it, Jaime is going to be defeated around the Gods Eye and taken alive when the North comes South, then taken to a weirwood on the Isle of Faces either for judgement or execution, but the tree is going to spare him.

Being judjed in front of a weirwood tree is an interesting idea. Bran could see everything through the eyes of the tree. But Jaime wouldn't know that Bran is the one watching him. I'd prefer Bran staring at him when he announces the verdict, but reallistically that's too positive thinking right now.

 

[Lady of Butterflies]

20 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

It's possible Meera's journey will come to an end as well (and Hodor's?) and they will both leave the cave as well (and Jojen if he is not dead). And Meera is dutiful, tired and sad, so yes, maybe her service is just finished. But that makes me believe in the possibility that this situation could change her mind and make her question everything, as well!

Considering the Reed's kids don't know everything (were they just told to serve prince Bran until he reached the 3-eyedCrow?), couldn't she be interested in knowing the whole truth? Maybe not right now, but why not in a future? And she might be needed in a future if Bran is in peril (they have become friends). This is a subjective opinion of course, I like Meera and possibly see a potential evolution in a secondary character that may never happen.

However, what I felt after reading the last chapter of Bran was that he was not doing anything willingly. Not only that, he wanted to shout it out, but didn't because he just resigned himself, not changing his fate, accepting that it was important enough (which maybe will be true). So everyone in that chapter was sad and doing their duty. So I wonder if his inner thoughts and actions (saying to himself being a greenseer was cool enough and anyone would like to marry him, entering Hodor's body to explore the cave in an act of rebellion because he doesn't want to sit in a tree, or thinking about it again to touch her because she was sad) was just a sad way to express the thoughts of someone who will sacrifice his life even more, someone who has never done what he wanted in 5 books; or there is more than meets the eye, and maybe Bran's future is not already written.

Bran is definitly coming out of the cave in the show. So, I suspect he'll make it in the books.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

BR is not the 3EC--how utterly original.   I've never seen that before.   Any ideas who 3EC might really be?   If you've seen the new photos of season 6 released today there is a very interesting one of the actors who play Bran and BR.  The show just confuses things for me, but it looks like HBO may give me all the story I'm apt to get.  

As to your last comment I think BR is still a brother even if he's abandoned his post as LC.   Do we really know he abandoned it voluntarily?  I am believing more with each read that NW was designed to serve a far nobler purpose than it currently does.   And I think BR is not a bad guy so I figured he answered a higher calling in going to the cave.  Won't I feel foolish if the Fattest Leech is right and he's actually the devil?

I can't bring myself to use the show as evidence for or against anything in the books... It is already so different and with so many cut corners that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they come to very different conclusions... Especially for Bran.

with that said your sarcasm is palpable, but I never claimed originality. Only that we always assume that Jojen has succeeded in his "quest" to deliver Bran to the Three Eyed Crow. He seems to believe hat anyway and is now awaiting his own death.

But when they arrive and actually ask about if BR is the 3eR, first Leaf pointedly deflects and doesn't answer, and BR says:

 

Quote

 

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

 

I'm not saying it is proof, but it's fucking odd... 

[Meera of Tarth]

21 minutes ago, Lady of Butterflies said:

Bran is definitly coming out of the cave in the show. So, I suspect he'll make it in the books.

If only! But I suspect that the screenshots from the show only refer to visions or a dream, but if they cover things from Winds and he leaves the cave I'd love it

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I can't bring myself to use the show as evidence for or against anything in the books... It is already so different and with so many cut corners that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they come to very different conclusions... Especially for Bran.

with that said your sarcasm is palpable, but I never claimed originality. Only that we always assume that Jojen has succeeded in his "quest" to deliver Bran to the Three Eyed Crow. He seems to believe hat anyway and is now awaiting his own death.

But when they arrive and actually ask about if BR is the 3eR, first Leaf pointedly deflects and doesn't answer, and BR says:

 

I'm not saying it is proof, but it's fucking odd... 

No Man, I laugh at myself quite a lot but I wasn't being sarcastic at all about your idea.  I've honestly never seen that it's frickin original.  At work & shouldn't be goofing off will address rest of your reply tonight.

.

[aryagonnakill#2]

The screenshots of Bran are clearly a vision, he is not actually walking around with BR.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I can't bring myself to use the show as evidence for or against anything in the books... It is already so different and with so many cut corners that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they come to very different conclusions... Especially for Bran.

with that said your sarcasm is palpable, but I never claimed originality. Only that we always assume that Jojen has succeeded in his "quest" to deliver Bran to the Three Eyed Crow. He seems to believe hat anyway and is now awaiting his own death.

But when they arrive and actually ask about if BR is the 3eR, first Leaf pointedly deflects and doesn't answer, and BR says:

 

I'm not saying it is proof, but it's fucking odd... 

Now that you mention it, it is a bit strange that someone who projected an image of himself as a 3EC would then almost seem confused at being referred to as a crow.

I've recently been thinking that the Heart of Winter is some kind of icy hive mind with psychic and ice-elemental-making abilities. In that case the 3EC might have been a projection from the Heart of Winter rather than Bloodraven. Though BR does say he saw Bran fall and has been in his dreams. But there is certainly another possibility.

Just now, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The screenshots of Bran are clearly a vision, he is not actually walking around with BR.

There was another picture earlier showing him sitting on a horse. I think that's the one making people think he will leave the cave.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

27 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

No Man, I laugh at myself quite a lot but I wasn't being sarcastic at all about your idea.  I've honestly never seen that it's frickin original.  At work & shouldn't be goofing off will address rest of your reply tonight.

.

Fair enough, haha, luckily it's a slow day for me...

So I'll be the first to admit it looks crackpot from afar and probably is, but I am slowly convincing myself that Ban is himself the three eyed crow... And not Blood Raven.

So above I quoted the part of Dance that made me question if BR=3eC... Since he really doesn't answer the question and Bran even thinks to himself that it is off...

So I went back and re-read the chapter where Bran Falls and the next one where he has his falling 3eC dream in Game...

I had forgotten that Bran is scared of the Heart Tree in Winterfell, and that he hadn't set out to climb the broken tower, but instead was supposed to be saying goodbye... But upon seeing his old pony he starts crying and goes to feed the crows.

Of course the circling crows waiting for their corn are featured prominently before Jaime 'does what he does for love'... 

Ok nothing earth shattering their just some little odd details...

But the dream sequence is very strange (as dreams are want to be), but maybe the oddest thing for me is that nothing there 3EC says is in quotes... Bran's words are in quotes... Even his fathers remembered words are in quotes...

Next, is the fact that the 3eC pecks in the middle of his head, almost as if to give him a third eye...

And the heart tree appears in the dream too (If I'm wildly speculating then I'd place this as BR in the dream):

  At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly.

 

Is any of this proof, NO... But it's my little theory...

oh! And there is the little fact that Bran means Crow in Welsh...

 

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Hm...so do you think that trained Bran reaches back in time to awaken his younger self?

[Ser Hyle]

4 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Hm...so do you think that trained Bran reaches back in time to awaken his younger self?

How would future Bran make it to BR and be able to reach back in time if he wasn't already awoken in the first place?

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Just now, Ser Hyle said:

How would future Bran make it to BR and be able to reach back in time if he wasn't already awoken in the first place?

Because his future self had awoken him, of course. :-P

It's a classic time loop, common in time travel stories. See Interstellar, Loopers.

But I don't really think that's the case. As far as I know Martin has never evidenced much interest in time travel stories.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

22 minutes ago, Blind Beth the Cat Lady said:

Hm...so do you think that trained Bran reaches back in time to awaken his younger self?

It depends what you mean I guess... I don't think that Bran can straight up time travel... But we know for a fact that he can look back in time

It also seems like the "old gods" are some sort of amalgamation of green seer memories and consciousness... And let's remember that this is in Brans dream, and we know that it's possible to mess with dreams in this story.

So it would seem to me that it's his blood that saved him, and until/if we get some more info I don't know exactly how... But it's the only example I have of full dialogue without quotes... And it's not like the 3ec really tells him anything except to stop crying and fly... We don't know what he saw in the heart of winter

BR meanwhile says he's been watching Bran since he was born, and been in his dreams... But there is no evidence of Bran having 3eC dreams before this one. Of course the Heart Tree has been there since before Bran, and BR shows him how to see out of it.

again this is just my speculation but I have a really hard time believing Blood Raven is a good guy

[Lady of Butterflies]

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

If only! But I suspect that the screenshots from the show only refer to visions or a dream, but if they cover things from Winds and he leaves the cave I'd love it

The last photo is from a vision. But the picture of Bran on horseback is real.

[Lady of Butterflies]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

The screenshots of Bran are clearly a vision, he is not actually walking around with BR.

Of course. But the picture of Bran on horseback is not a vision.

[aryagonnakill#2]

3 minutes ago, Lady of Butterflies said:

Of course. But the picture of Bran on horseback is not a vision.

How do you know that?  There are no horses around the cave, if 1 shows up I'll curse D&D for bullshit on that account.  So for Bran to get a horse in a reasonable fashion he has to leave the cave, get south of the wall, and then find a horse.  This should take a few episodes to accomplish, and we have seen 0 of Brans training yet, so I find it unlikely that they leave in the first few episodes. 

The more likely scenario is simply Bran having a vision of some kind, if he is walking around WF with BR in 1 vision, there doesn't seem to be any reason he cannot be riding around in another vision.  Perhaps he is following people who are on horseback in a vision, such as the much hyped TOJ vision?

I could potentially see Bran maybe showing up at CB in episode 10, but it would seem really far fetched to me.

[Meera of Tarth]

There are many possibilities, it could be a vision, like the other, if we can see him standing on his feet in a vision, then there's no reason why he could not be riding a horse. It could also be a dream, or he leaving the cave.

The day the photo was released I suggested it could be Bran riding a horse (or a donkey) inside the cave, which is supposed to be a world on its own right. That's the most unlikely, however, because he would have difficulties riding a horse without any extra help.

[Lady of Butterflies]

6 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

How do you know that?  There are no horses around the cave, if 1 shows up I'll curse D&D for bullshit on that account.  So for Bran to get a horse in a reasonable fashion he has to leave the cave, get south of the wall, and then find a horse.  This should take a few episodes to accomplish, and we have seen 0 of Brans training yet, so I find it unlikely that they leave in the first few episodes. 

The more likely scenario is simply Bran having a vision of some kind, if he is walking around WF with BR in 1 vision, there doesn't seem to be any reason he cannot be riding around in another vision.  Perhaps he is following people who are on horseback in a vision, such as the much hyped TOJ vision?

I could potentially see Bran maybe showing up at CB in episode 10, but it would seem really far fetched to me.

In the last photo, Bran is standing, is wearing his Winterfell rich clothes (It’s a vision) and in the other photo, he was balancing on horseback, wearing rags. He wouldn't be balancing precariously on horseback if it was a vision.

[Lady of Butterflies]

1 minute ago, Meera of Tarth said:

There are many possibilities, it could be a vision, like the other, if we can see him standing on his feet in a vision, then there's no reason why he could not be riding a horse. It could also be a dream, or he leaving the cave.

The day the photo was released I suggested it could be Bran riding a horse (or a donkey) inside the cave, which is supposed to be a world on its own right. That's the most unlikely, however, because he would have difficulties riding a horse without any extra help.

You can see in the picture he is just balancing on the horse, probably they bound him there so he would not fall.